Author Topic: Garden Waste Collection Charge  (Read 20883 times)

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Offline Editor

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #120 on: March 31, 2017, 08:47:57 am »
Pictures of daily organic household waste welcome

If any local residents agree that sending organic household waste to landfill is wrong, please consider taking a snap of your daily pile of previously recyclable waste and posting it to this thread. I will then tweet the images, copying in Welwyn Hatfield Council, and link to this thread so that they can follow the debate. Images need to be resized to about 1,000 pixels and you can use the free PicMonkey tool to do that. The more pictures the better.

David
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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2017, 09:54:51 am »
Question...

The council flyer about the change in the rules regarding kitchen food waste and the use of the black rubbish bin (waste to landfill) reads: "It is best to bag your rubbish before putting it in the bin". But best for who/what? Best for the council, the rubbish collectors, us, or the environment?

If I put all the previously recyclable organic kitchen waste in plastic bags it will take years for it to break down in landfill. But if I just chuck the stuff in the black bin loose, then it has a far better chance of breaking down once in the landfill.

So should I ignore what the council thinks is best and, instead of bagging up my kitchen waste, just put it in the black bin as it it?

Seems the most environmentally-friendly choice in an environmentally-flawed scheme.
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Offline LMS

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2017, 11:49:01 am »
I am appalled by the whole situation, all this good recyclable material going to landfill, and I will show my displeasure when I cast my vote next month.
 
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Offline Adrian

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2017, 10:17:22 am »

Hands up, I have not read all the information put out by the council on this subject, however from David's quoted post below and a few others - I got the impression that onion peelings were not allowed in the brown bin and must go in the black (Unless you compost them at home of course)


From today, this, according to our local council, is classed as landfill and MUST NOT be recycled.

However, on David's latest post which includes what looks like a council flyer it states next to a black bin, "This is only for your household rubbish which cannot be recycled or composted"

So you can't put your compostable household waste in the black bin?
So, presumably there is another flyer stating it must not go on the brown bin either, where does it go

I assume the council must have a reason/argument for not composting David's onion peelings - Irrespective of whether it is a credible reason or not, could someone in 1-2 sentences state what it is - as I have no idea?

The only reason I can think of is, if the council continue to collect and compost onion peelings then they would need to collect from everyone, including those that don't pay the new £35 tax. Therefore non-payers would still need a brown bin and this would make collection day more problematic as the collectors would need to police these bins for none household waste.
 

Offline epiphany

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2017, 10:25:54 am »
I believe that the reason is that the Council cannot charge for collecting household waste - it has a legal duty to collect this.


If you put your onion peelings in the brown bin then the Council will in effect be charging to remove household waste.


Utter madness.......
 

Offline Susan

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2017, 11:12:53 am »
I assumed household compost could go in the bin, until I saw David's post. I was going to get a brown bin, but I'm not sure there's much point if onion peelings etc can't go in, as that's the main waste over the winter!

And now I see there might be a political reason for the bin not being used for this!
 

Offline Angel

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2017, 12:35:49 pm »
I have just got around to registering for this and, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I was not happy that I had to supply my mobile number before I could proceed - since when have you had to have a mobile phone when using an online service? 
Entering an email was optional.
 ???
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #127 on: April 03, 2017, 01:35:40 pm »
Just enter something like 07000 000000 - usually online forms will only validate very basic things like whether the number starts 07, that sort of thing. And is obvious to a human eye that its not a real number
 
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Offline Angel

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2017, 01:46:29 pm »
Just enter something like 07000 000000 - usually online forms will only validate very basic things like whether the number starts 07, that sort of thing. And is obvious to a human eye that its not a real number
I thought of making something up but don't understand why they want it anyway and, as I said, you can use online without a mobile.  Just thought they might want to validate something!
Oh well, done now!
 

Offline Adrian

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2017, 03:37:50 pm »
But the flyer states in relation to the black bin "This is only for your household rubbish which cannot be recycled or composted"

So the peelings can't go in there either, so where do they go?
 

Offline Susan

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2017, 04:15:34 pm »
"So the peelings can't go in there either, so where do they go?"
You could try the very popular ditch up Bulls Lane... two large conifers there at the moment. We got a free wheelbarrow yesterday... just need to repair the puncture!
 

Offline epiphany

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2017, 05:35:13 pm »
The wisdom or otherwise of the Council's ill conceived waste collection is contained here:


<a href="http://democracy.welhat.gov.uk/documents/s3115/4a2%20-%20Garden%20Waste%20Report.pdf" target="_blank">http://democracy.welhat.gov.uk/documents/s3115/4a2%20-%20Garden%20Waste%20Report.pdf</a>
 
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Offline Adrian

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2017, 07:07:49 pm »

The wisdom or otherwise of the Council's ill conceived waste collection is contained here:
Thanks, I've read the document and learnt the following:


d) Food waste may temporarily be re-directed to the black refuse bin, until such time as an alternative collection and treatment solution can be found
So the onion peelings in the black bin are a temporary measure. Hooray.


3.3 If the Council introduces an annual charge of £35 for the collection of garden waste, it is anticipated that a minimum of £400,000 net income per annum would accrue which will be used to offset the costs of operating this service, currently around £1.1m per annum.
So, if the costs are more than the income, then those who don't opt in are nevertheless still contributing to the running costs but getting no benefit....Losers ;D

3.7 The council cannot make a charge for the collection of food waste which means that if a charge for the garden waste service is introduced, residents will have to divert their food waste to the black bin for the time being.
Epiphany was right there then.

9.2 Food waste may be re-directed to the black refuse bin, until such time as an alternative collection and treatment solution can be found. This will slightly increase the amount of waste disposed of through landfill or energy recovery. However, food waste prevention and home composting will also be promoted to reduce the impact on climate change.
Has anyone noticed this promotion? I haven't.

5.3 The Council receives funding from Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) based on its waste performance e.g. waste reduction, recycling and diversion from landfill. This is through a financial mechanism called the Alternative Financial Model (AFM), which returns some of the savings which the county council receives from the reduction in overall waste collected from all councils in Hertfordshire. The introduction of a garden waste charge will impact upon the level of funding the council receives through the AFM.
So Wel-Hat council will now get a smaller subsidy from the County Council for being environmentally unfriendly.

I still have 2 unanswered questions.

(1) Why on David's post does it state next to the black bin: "This is only for your household rubbish which cannot be recycled or composted" therefore excluding the onions?
(2) Why didn't they find "an alternative collection and treatment solution" for the onions and launch it at the same time.
 

Offline larrylamb

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #133 on: April 04, 2017, 08:54:04 am »
If the "for profit" companies, Serco and Ringway for example were removed from the portfolio then there would be more cash for front line services.
 

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #134 on: April 04, 2017, 11:03:58 am »
Another question regarding the new un-recycling system...

We use fresh basil a lot when cooking. I like to tear the leaves and scatter them on fresh pasta. So the basil plant sits in the kitchen until it's bare, and then we buy a new one. We tried planting the old one in the garden, but it attracts slugs and never did very well.

So, in the past, the old basil plant would go in the brown recycling bin after the soil was shaken off. I am guessing that, now, because the leaves were used for cooking, it is classed as household waste and has to be consigned to the black, landfill bin.

However, if I plant it in the garden for a few days and then dig it up again, is it garden waste? After all, it still has roots.

To help decide, I have added a picture (below) of the old basil plant on the right and the new one on the left, bought, incidentally, from the herb section of a food department in a supermarket.

Perhaps the leaves of the basil plant are household waste once they have been picked and washed for cooking, whereas if they are still attached to the stem, sitting in soil with active roots, the plant is garden waste? Perhaps, if I had bought it in a garden centre in the herbs section, and not in a food supermarket, it would be classed as garden waste? Could it be a simple as depending on where it was bought?

Suggestions welcome; I just don't want to break any rules.
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Offline Bob

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #135 on: April 04, 2017, 11:28:13 am »
Until it's cooked it's still garden waste, rather like old cut flowers  :icon_scratch:
Bob
 
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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #136 on: April 04, 2017, 11:48:05 am »
Until it's cooked it's still garden waste, rather like old cut flowers  :icon_scratch:

Thanks Bob, but, similar to salad, the basil leaves are never 'cooked' (as in prepare food by combing ingredients and then heating), they are just ripped and sprinkled on top of fresh pasta, adding a lovely fragrance and taste to a 'cooked' meal. So, under your definition, a basil plant can never be household waste? Will the council buy that? Anyway, I have tweeted and copied the council in just in case they can shed any light on this first-world dilemma.
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Offline Helen

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #137 on: April 04, 2017, 12:06:37 pm »
Until it's cooked it's still garden waste, rather like old cut flowers  :icon_scratch:

Ah, so that solves our 'cut onion' dilemma! ;0)
 

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #138 on: April 04, 2017, 12:39:04 pm »
For those who want to retweet this dilemma.

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Offline epiphany

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #139 on: April 04, 2017, 12:43:33 pm »
"rubbish rules" - Excellent!!  :)
 

Offline epiphany

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #140 on: April 04, 2017, 04:08:00 pm »
Does this mean that those who have paid already will get a partial refund?  :)


http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_brown_bin_service_rumours_quashed_1_4961719
 
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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #141 on: April 04, 2017, 04:38:22 pm »
Ah, so that solves our 'cut onion' dilemma! ;0)

Well the 'cut onion' dilemma leads to another confusion. And it's all to do with the wording.

The leaflet says that there can be "No kitchen food waste", but onion skins are not usually eaten so they can't be "food waste". Food waste (Wikipedia: "Food waste is any food that is discarded or lost uneaten". The term refers to food that is already produced, but not used.

In the case of onion skins, they have to be removed to reveal the onion, which is the food. I don't know anyone who eats onion skins. Similarly, I don't know of anyone who eats banana skins; they are also removed to reveal the food beneath. So the food is the banana flesh, the peel is just one of those protective covers nature provides to keep the banana from going off.

So, if veggie and fruit peel and skins are not considered to be food (Wikipedia: "Any substance consumed to provide nutritional support for the body"), and they don't match the definition of food waste (see above), then perhaps they are okay for the new brown bin rule?

Also it says "No kitchen food waste", so does that mean that if I peel my vegetables and fruit in the shed or on the patio, making sure it goes nowhere near the kitchen, is it okay to dump it in the brown bin because it's not food and its only link to the kitchen is that the stuff it was protecting has been taken there to be cooked?

The council's leaflet sets out the rules (see below) and has a helpful picture. In it I see eggshells. Surely a mistake. Eggshells are neither food (any substance consumed to provide nutritional support for the body) and nor are they food waste (any food that is discarded or lost uneaten), so this is really misleading and confusing to include them in the council handout about the rubbish rules.

In case it helps, the UN describes food waste as follows: "Food waste (which is a component of food loss) is any removal of food from the food supply chain which is or was at some point fit for human consumption, or which has spoiled or expired, mainly caused by economic behaviour, poor stock management or neglect"

So the UN agrees that eggshells, banana skins and onion peel are not food waste. Good to see our local authority challenging the United Nations.

Some may say I am over-thinking this issue, clearly something the council can't be accused of.

 ;)
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Offline trekbat

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #142 on: April 04, 2017, 04:41:33 pm »
5.3 The Council receives funding from Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) based on its waste performance e.g. waste reduction, recycling and diversion from landfill. This is through a financial mechanism called the Alternative Financial Model (AFM), which returns some of the savings which the county council receives from the reduction in overall waste collected from all councils in Hertfordshire. The introduction of a garden waste charge will impact upon the level of funding the council receives through the AFM.
So Wel-Hat council will now get a smaller subsidy from the County Council for being environmentally unfriendly.

Weirdly, apparently under the existing scheme they would get the same amount or more. However, HCC are aware of WHC's master plan to saddle them with extra waste and look set to do something about it (as previously mentioned in Reply #114 on: March 30, 2017, 03:33:13 pm ):

County council review sparked by Welwyn Hatfield’s brown bins service

"Cllr Thake confirmed that if the rewards system is adjusted, it might mean Welwyn Hatfield Council would receive less money than at present if it produces more residual waste."

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/county_council_review_sparked_by_welwyn_hatfield_s_brown_bins_service_1_4953091

 

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2017, 09:30:36 am »
Does this mean that those who have paid already will get a partial refund?  :)

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_brown_bin_service_rumours_quashed_1_4961719

Common marketing strategy, often used by companies wanting to boost the immediate cash flow. Encourage people to pay up early for fear of missing out and then change the rules.  :)
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Offline trekbat

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #144 on: April 05, 2017, 11:14:07 am »
3.3 If the Council introduces an annual charge of £35 for the collection of garden waste, it is anticipated that a minimum of £400,000 net income per annum would accrue which will be used to offset the costs of operating this service, currently around £1.1m per annum.
So, if the costs are more than the income, then those who don't opt in are nevertheless still contributing to the running costs but getting no benefit....Losers ;D

If the figure of c.£1.1m per annum operating cost is correct, according to my calculator, at £35 that means 31,428.57 households will need to sign up to cover the operating cost (so that's not taking into account the set up costs and any shortfall as a result of changes to the rebate due to HCC revising the scheme in response to WHC's move).

However, according to the latest figures I've seen (in epiphany's Reply #140):

Welwyn Hatfield brown bin service rumours quashed - 04 April, 2017 - 14:14
"a council spokesman has told the Welwyn Hatfield Times: “The new garden waste service started this week and so far over 16,000 people have subscribed. "
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_brown_bin_service_rumours_quashed_1_4961719

 

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #145 on: April 05, 2017, 03:37:55 pm »
Comingled food and garden waste from Welwyn Hatfield households was being taken to Agrivert's In-Vessel Composting Facility at South Mimms.  The contract for this was arranged through the Hertfordshire Waste Partnership, so it wouldn't appear that this will change in future.  The HWP Annual Report 2015-16 can be found at https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/documents/waste/waste-partnership-meeting-docs/hwp-annual-report-2015-16.pdf for anyone who is interested (embedded below). 

Put simply, usually what happens at IVCs is the green waste is all dumped in a holding area, it's then taken to be shredded.  Once shredded it's laid out to break down into compost. 

<a href="https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/documents/waste/waste-partnership-meeting-docs/hwp-annual-report-2015-16.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/documents/waste/waste-partnership-meeting-docs/hwp-annual-report-2015-16.pdf</a>

Edited to embed PDF referred to in the link
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 07:05:09 am by Editor »
 
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Offline trekbat

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #146 on: April 07, 2017, 04:41:23 pm »
Comingled food and garden waste from Welwyn Hatfield households was being taken to Agrivert's In-Vessel Composting Facility at South Mimms.  The contract for this was arranged through the Hertfordshire Waste Partnership, so it wouldn't appear that this will change in future....

Put simply, usually what happens at IVCs is the green waste is all dumped in a holding area, it's then taken to be shredded.  Once shredded it's laid out to break down into compost.  https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/documents/waste/waste-partnership-meeting-docs/hwp-annual-report-2015-16.pdf

If I understand correctly, this only happens when the waste is 'streamed' (via the former brown bin scheme).

As of this month, Welwyn Hatfield kitchen waste goes into the black bin and thence to an incinerator or landfill.
 

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #148 on: April 21, 2017, 10:51:30 am »
From the article above: "So far 18,317 people have subscribed to the service."

18,317 x £35 = £641,095

Still considerably short of operating costs in the region of £1.1m, which begs the question as to how are they going to make up the shortfall (although there may be savings from providing the service to fewer households when contracts are renewed).

In the mean time usage of county facilities at Cole Green and Allum Lane, Elstree are increasing, which means a corresponding increase in HCC's costs which no doubt will be handed down to council taxpayers.

And there are already complaints about using these facilities:

WHT Letters (page 24, 29/03/2017) 'Recycling Centre Inefficiency'.

Fears mount over Welwyn Hatfield’s long waste disposal queue
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/fears-mount-over-welwyn-hatfield-s-long-waste-disposal-queue-1-4976253

As for increased costs due to fly tipping that's left to be seen.

Meanwhile, in a separate development, WHC's problem child, Finesse Leisure, strikes yet again:

Hatfield fitness fans slam £320k gym refit
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield-fitness-fans-slam-320k-gym-refit-1-4967418

 

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Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
« Reply #149 on: April 21, 2017, 11:39:11 am »
This whole scheme was so badly thought through - the average person on the street could have predicted:

a. Not enough people will take up the paid service to cover its costs
b. The existing recycling sites will not be able to cope
c. Fly tipping will increase massively

Perhaps the council elections next month are an opportunity to express our opinions of yet more bad decisions!
 
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