Dog mess and the health risks

[Cassie]

The parish council message isn't really very firm - just saying people should clear up - surely it is a must.  Why not just slap hefty fines on these NIMBYS

I always said when my children were small that if I had gone and emptied the contents of their nappies all over the place I would have been called all sorts of names (and quite rightly) yet they let their dogs do this and think it's not their problem

[Bob Horrocks]

The various signs put up by the parish council are being replaced.  At the moment someone could claim that there are no clear signs against dog mess etc.

the problem is catching someone not cleaning up after their dog.   That is why in the next Chancellor's News the council is asking people to speak to anyone they see who does not clean up.

[dogpoo]

Well wasn't the weather nice today? I hope you all had an enjoyable afternoon. Myself - I went to Gobions, armed with lots of plastic bags. You can see what I picked up below:



Yep - 19 piles of doggy poo. Unfortunately I could only stay about 40 mins, so I only managed to cover about a fifth of the field, meaning there's still another 80 approx out there - but it's a start.

I do intend to return next weekend (probably Saturday) - if any community minded souls feel like joining me, please send me an instant message via the forum and I'll contact you in advance.

Why am I doing this? Well, firstly I'm not going to do it again, so PLEASE dog owners, don't think you've got yourself off the hook because this poor mug's gonna come around once a week and clear up the mess.

But the summer is coming up, and it would be nice if we could go to Gobions and use it without the fear of what we might be treading in. Especially for the kids. And i have this vague (probably irrational) hope that if we do manage to clear the field, then post a sign saying what we've done, that people's conscience will get the better of them and they will start clearing up. Well, I can hope.

Does anyone know - if I took a camera up to Gobions and took pictures of dogs, owners (and the evidence!) and pass them onto - I dunno, maybe the police or the parish council, will they do anything with them? Wouild the police fine them or anything like that? Or would I just get arrested for taking people's photos without their permission?

If we as a community all work together, I am sure we can 'educate' the few inconsiderate people into clearing up after their dogs, meaning things will be a lot more enjoyable for the rest of us. I know that means confronting people - but if you feel you can safely, please do so. Come on people, let's give it a go!

Lastly - Mr Parish Council - the doggy bin was overflowing when I finally got to it today (and that was before my 19 plastic bags (tried) to go in it) Is there any chance you could up the frequency of emptyings please?

One positive thing - I also went around picking litter up, and only found about 8 bits. So at least that's one less problem to deal with.

Dog Poo.

[Bob Horrocks]

Many thanks to Dogpoo for what he/she did.

Regarding the full dog litter bins, could it be that your visit was on a Sunday and the Parish Council groundsmen do not work on weekends.  Maybe others had done their public duty and cleaned up after their dog(s) which was why the bin was full?  Never the less I will ask at tonight's Parish Council meeting how often the bins are emptied, and post the reply here.

[Bob Horrocks]

The Parish Council groundsmen normally empty dog litter bins, including those at Gobions Open Space, every week day.  Last weekend the fine weather must have encouraged more people than usual to exercise their dogs on GOS, and obviously many owners did clean up after their dog, causing the bins to overflow by Sunday.

Looks like we need more bins, particularly if there is another fine summer.

Another problem this week was office furniture dumped on GOS the car park.  Time and money has been spent hiring a skip etc. to get rid of it.  Vandalism is a cost to all of us since these extra costs come out of the Council Tax.  The ownership is being investigated.  

The Parish Council does not have legal powers to fine people who do not clean up, or staff time to keep watch.  Welwyn Hatfield has these powers.

[sherlock1a]

Dear D P,

Well done to you, I will try to get over and do some picking up over this coming weekend. The key is the signs though, to prick the owners' conscience, as otherwise they will simply carry on letting thier dogs foul.

When are you intending to erect a sign?

Thanks.

[dogpoo]

The Parish Council groundsmen normally empty dog litter bins, including those at Gobions Open Space, every week day.  Last weekend the fine weather must have encouraged more people than usual to exercise their dogs on GOS, and obviously many owners did clean up after their dog, causing the bins to overflow by Sunday.

Well, the bin next to the car park was full again today (Sat) by midday, so it looks like either you need to check up on your emptying people or put in another bin as a matter or urgency. I shudder to think of the state it will be in by the end of the bank holiday weekend.

A few other volunteers and I today completely cleared (to the best of our knowledge) the main field at Gobions. We've also erected some signs (I did speak to a parish councillor first) which hopefully the vandals will leave alone. Initial results have been encouraging - I did see two people read a sign asking them to make sure they cleaned up after their dog, and go back to their car to get a plastic bag before they set out walking.

Time will tell I guess.

Dogpoo

[NZer]

I'm full of admiration for your efforts.  The open space was a real hazard to walk across when I was there last spring, especially as we had children with us.  
Here in NZ its considered very antisocial not to pick up after one's dog and most people are very good.  There are also fines for those that don't, but I don't know how often anyone is fined.  I think other peoples disapproval of their actions in not picking up is a greater influence.

[Bob Horrocks]

Is it true that people take bags of dog poo from their home and deposit them in the dog litter bins, or on the ground nearby.  Can anyone confirm this?  It could explain why the bins are full almost as soon as they are emptied.

Suggestion - dump the bag in your own dustbin or take it to the litter collection point at the NM Youth and Community Centre.  Or get rid of your dog(s) since you are not fit to own a dog if you are a culprit.

[Alfred the Great]

Awhooooooooooo!

I can't help it if my owners don't clean up after me. If you get rid of me I will either become a stray or be taken to South Mimms or get a nasty injection.

Mr Dog

[dogpoo]

Dear Mr Dog

Personally if your owner can't be bothered to clean up after you, I would give you a lethal injection myself... I hope your post was tongue in cheek.

Dear Bob

I have seen people empty half a bucket full of dog poo in to the dog poo bin. Why they don't just put it in their dustbin bag out for the dustmen I'm not too sure.

I was up at Gobions on Sunday (cleaned the field again with some other helpers and was pleased to see a lot less mess than last time - is the message getting through? Hope so!) and talked to a couple of dog owners - the general opinion was that another bin or two would definately help the situation, as it can be a VERY long walk back to where the bins are. The most popular area seemed to be on the other side of the main field from the carpark near the top entrance to the woods.

Dogpoo

[Bob Horrocks]

Thanks, Dogpoo.  I will raise this with the Parish Council, although the groundsmen may need a special 'dog litter bin clearance' bonus to encourage them with this nasty job.

To Mr Dog - I hope Alfred The Great DOES clean up after you otherwise my opinion of him will have gone down.  Actions speak louder than words.

[Alfred the Great]

Actually with three moggies I have to draw the line somewhere, so no dogz in the Great household. But the wife is a dog lover so I suppose I have been influenced.

ATG

[Alfred the Great]

Actually you may all be amused to hear of an amusing true story published in the Herne Bay Gazette the other week.

The local dog poo warden was taking a break in her van in the car park on the sea front, when a man allowed his dog to poo on the pavement and just started walking away, like they always do. She immediately got out her pad and pen, and started to bear down on him ready to say "gotcha". The man suddenly noticed this, ran back to the offending heap and picked it up in his BARE HANDS to take it to the dog bin!

I'd love to have seen that.

ATG

[Bob Horrocks]

How I would love to rub an offending owner's nose in the heap of you-know-what!

Sorry if I misread ATG's previous item, but it read as though he was was a dog owner.

[Bob Horrocks]

Do you know there is only one doggybin on all the roads in Brookmans Park, or so I am told.  North Mymms Parish Council is taking this up with Welwyn Hatfield Council to try and get more.

I think dogdirt is the hot topic for 2004.   Lets hope the publicity will get results.

[Editor]

Bob,

How would this work, would residents have a say in whether a red bin full of dog mess was positioned outside the front of their house, or would it just appear one day?

I have a feeling the reason there are not many is that there might be strong objections, particularly if the house owner was not a dog owner.

Surely the best solution is for people to clear the mess and take it home with them to dispose of?

Dave

[freespirit]

Looks as if the dogs cant wait to get to Gobions, the amount of mess in Bluebridge Ave is disgusting.

All I can say is sorry to the residents on behalf of the dog owners and watch where you or your children put your feet!!!!

[shads]

is there any law that requires dog owners to pick up their dog mess and take it with them?
If not i feel there shud be to make these people more responsible for there own dogs mess.
If you get fined for dropping litter surely you shud be fined for leaving dog mess in public places which is worse and a health hazard.
On the otherside of that rant,even if there were laws in place it seems that they would be impracticle and nigh on impossible to enforce....however it may make an owner think twice

[dogpoo]

Tha parish council bylaws effectively saw that you can be fined up to £100 for allowing your dog to foul parish council land (i.e. gobians).

However, the parish council have told me that in practice that is not going to happen because they do not have the financial resources to do that.

I have been speaking to them trying to get them to take some action, and, despite some support of the current chairman, the current council seems unwilling to be able to - or want to - help with sorting out the problem in any way, apart from providing two new doggy poo bins, which in practise will make no difference at all.

If you are upset about the amount of dogpoo at Gobions I suggest you lobby your parish councillor about it - maybe if enough people complain something might happen. I very much doubt it though - it seems to be too much hassle for them.

Disollusioned resident of Brookmans Park

[sherlock1a]

Do you have their contact details? If anyone does, please post them on the site and we can contact them and request they take some action.

Thanks.

[Editor]

Do you have their contact details? If anyone does, please post them on the site and we can contact them and request they take some action.

You can click here for the contact details for North Mymms Parish Council. Alternatively here they are copied from that page.

Contact Mrs Josephine Schettino, Clerk
Council Office
Annexe to No 1 Bungalow
Bushwood Close
Welham Green
Nr Hatfield
Hertfordshire
AL9 7YZ
Phone: 01707 268418

[Bob Horrocks]

Dear disillusioned Dogpoo.
It is not too much hassle but the Parish Council accepts that it cannot resolve this problem on its own. Individuals must make dog walkers feel ashamed that their dog is causing a problem so that they start cleaning up after their dog.  The Council debated this subject at length and has made certain decisions stated below.

Dog dirt has been around since dogs were invented!  Dog dirt is a national problem, not just at Gobions.  Parish Council by-laws do not specifically mention dog dirt.  They are more general and cover dogs being a nuisance to others.  

I am not legally trained but picture the scene of two independent witnesses seeing a dog foul Gobions and the dog walker (DW) fails to clean it up.  On being accosted by the witnesses DW says s/he did not see the dog do it and would have cleaned up if s/he had.  Alternatively DW claims not to have brought enough plastic bags and will return with some more to clean up the mess.  

Also who is on the receiving end of the nuisance?  I imagine that if the witnesses had not been affected by the specific dog dirt then no nuisance had been caused to them.  Try winning a ‘nuisance’ Court case against those arguments.  

Dogpoo was very selective in what he passed on to you.  I told him that the Parish Council is unlikely to prosecute anyone because of the difficulty of getting evidence that will stand up in a court of law, and the cost of litigation.  The Council recently incurred a £2,700 legal bill on a case and was awarded £575 costs.  Taking someone to Court is not cheap.  

The Council is buying two more dog litter bins for Gobions costing £350, and has paid £100's for improved notices, some of which have already disappeared!  It
can only afford to do a certain amount.  It is your money being spent, and Councillors are very conscious of that fact.  We try to get proper value for your money.

I am very sympathetic but have to be realistic.  Sorry to go on at this length but I cannot let Dogpoo’s remarks go unanswered.

[falkor]

The parish council message isn't really very firm - just saying people should clear up - surely it is a must.  Why not just slap hefty fines on these NIMBYS

I always said when my children were small that if I had gone and emptied the contents of their nappies all over the place I would have been called all sorts of names (and quite rightly) yet they let their dogs do this and think it's not their problem

too right Cassie

4.5.      The powers of PCSOs are set out in Part 1 of Schedule 4 to the PRA.  In summary the powers are as follows:-

1.      Issue Fixed Penalty Notices (FPNs) for offences of disorder
2.      Detain for up to 30 minutes suspects who fail to give details
3.      Use reasonable force to detain as at 2
4.      Impose requirements and dispose of alcohol consumed in designated public places
5.      Enter any premises to save life and limb or prevent serious damage to property
6.      Carry out PACE road checks and stop vehicles to do so
7.      Stop and search vehicles & belongings in areas authorised under the Terrorism Act 2000.
8.      Seize vehicles used to cause alarm etc.
9.      Issue Fixed Penalty Notices for offences of cycling on footways, dog fouling, litter
10.      Require name and address from suspects
11.      Require name and address from person acting in anti-social manner
12.      Confiscate and dispose of alcohol from young persons
13.      Seize and dispose of tobacco from young persons
14.      Authorise removal of abandoned vehicles
15.      Stop vehicles for testing
16.      Make traffic directions for abnormal vehicles.

what you need is a PCSO or two to patrol Gobions, they are equipped to do the job you all consider needs doing and more  

[Bob Horrocks]

Great idea in theory but do we really want a police state?

Far better to embarrass dog owners into cleaning up by telling them when they do not clean up after their god (oops sorry, I meant dog).

The Parish Council By-laws would have to be revised to make dog fouling an offence punishable by a £100 on-the-spot fixed penalty.

Employing a dog warden would cost, maybe, £20,000 a year taking into account overheads including travel between Gobions and the other recreation grounds.  It would take one £100 fine almost every working day to cover that cost.  Assume a large percentage has to be taken to Court to get the money and the costs mount up.

The Parish Council cannot anticipate an income of £20,000 from dog fines, so it would have to assume virtually nil income, to be prudent.  This extra £20,000 a year represents about a 14% increase on the £147,000 the Parish Council collects from you this year.  This would be on top of the minimum increase just for inflation which this year was 2.7%.   So would the average householder be willing to accept an increase of 17% on what it pays to the Parish Council?  I think not.

This is what I meant when I said the Parish Council considered dog fouling carefully and has made the decisions that it has.

[James Bentall]

Employing a dog warden would cost, maybe, £20,000 a year taking into account overheads including travel between Gobions and the other recreation grounds.  

Surely such a person would not have to be full time however? Even if someone was employed for say - 3 hours a week, providing it wasn't the same 3 hours each week it would have the desired effect.

I'm sure once even one person had been fined word would quickly get round, and owners would begin to clean up after their dogs.

James

[Editor]

Just been for a walk through Gobions. Beautiful as ever, but the stench of dog mess on the route through  Moffats Open Space, Leach Fields, Gobions Woodland, around the ponds and over Gobions Open Space is becoming overbearing at times. It seems to be getting worse not better.

[Bob Horrocks]

Some confusion here.  Gobions Wood and Leach's Field belong to Gobions Woodland Trust.  The two open spaces are owned by the Parish Council.  

Do I hear any word as to what GWT should be doing?  Silence. At least the Parish Council provides dog litter bins and will be providing two more at GOS.  And cleans them out.  Welwyn Hatyfield Council only provide one dog bin for all Brookmans Park as far as I can tell.

Did James or the Editor catch any dog fouling the area?  Silence.  Catching them doing it is the initial problem, finding the responsible (irresponsible?) dog walker is the next, educating the person is next.

PS I am not a dog owner!

[Editor]

Hi Bob,

I don't think there is confusion. I am aware who has responsibility for the various areas. The issue I was raising was not about who owns the land, but the owners of the dogs.

And no, I didn't see any dogs fouling on my walk today. The worst bit for smell was the path south of the Leach Fields down to Gobions Woodland.

Are dog bins the issue? I am not sure. Responsible owners I know carry bags to collect their pet's waste, wherever it is deposited.

The problem we are all forced to put up with is that caused by the few dog owners who don't clear up after their pets. I am not sure it is down to facilities available, but more about education and learning to live in a civilised society.

[Bob Horrocks]

I cannot agree more.  But if there is so much dog dirt, either the 'few' (Phew?) dogs have a bowel problem or it is more than a few.

How is it that nobody seems to see it happen?