Welwyn Hatfield politics

[jet]

Mannie, it is an insulting term for council house, used in the ROI all the time. Depending on where you are, there is a very good rent to buy scheme. Some "council houses" are Palaces and very good value for money.

[John_fraser]

JET, I've beed distracted for a few day, but  think many of your previous comments were targeted at me. FYI: I'm not a moderator and was stopped from being one when I questioned/challenged a change in the rules.

[jet]

Yep, got it in one. Would be nice though if you contributed to the debate rather than display a lack of literal comprehension.

[John_fraser]

Frankly I don't think this is a debate. It is a group of people saying "I hate the EU and immigrants." Stating specific examples (e.g. my firend was robbed by an immigrant from X) is of little use because I could say when my friend was robbed an immigrant from Y came to their aid. What I'd like to see is some real figures, e.g. migrants created N jobs over the last Z years employing V number of people, but over the same period this number of people lost jobs to cheap labour. Sadly I don't think those figures are available.

But I do think there was something deeply ironic about an immigrant complaining about immigrants.

[Therock]

I cannot comment on social housing due to my post being removed.  Still lets wait and see what happens next.

[John_fraser]

Therock, I read your post and I can see why it was taken down, my problem is why other posts are allowed to remain and why some posts which are removed when they have broken no rules. I have concerns about the seemingly arbitrary way many of the decisions are taken.

[Therock]

Getting straight to the Point. There are to many illegal Immigrants in this Country and it Time that SOMEONE or SOMEBODY started to do something about it. UKIP seem to be the only Party talking about doing something positive. The other three divverhead partys have not got a clue.   Look at the foolish ED giving money to a beggar on our streets. Jesus whats happening here.

We used go to Calais, but God help us now if we went. How come that all the immigrants in Calais are allowed into France because 85% of them are not from European Union Countrys, so how come the French Government allowed them in .

Thank GOD for the English Chanel and UKIP

[Conor]

Getting straight to the Point. There are to many illegal Immigrants in this Country and it Time that SOMEONE or SOMEBODY started to do something about it.

Who is this mysterious SOMEONE or SOMEBODY? If it is not you, then why are expecting others to? The strongest societies and communities are those when all take part. Not just dictate what others should do on their behalf.

Conor

[John_fraser]

UKIP propose withdrawal from the EU. This will not reduce the number of illegal immigrants. It will probably increase the number of illegal immigrants while possibly reducing the overall number of immigrants.

Just to add some figures, which hopefully turn a rant into a debate: The estimated number of illegal immigrants in the uk is between 417,000 and 863,000. The number of immigrants in the UK is  7,505,000 or about 12% of the total population.


Interestingly, according to this article of the top ten countries of origin for immigrants seven are not EU members. Of the three which are, Poland, Ireland and Germany, Ireland had a special arrangement with the UK predating the EU. So possibly one of UKIP's supporters' main arguments for withdrawal is bogus. 


I should also point out that under current UK law if a person has legally resided here for over five years they get a right of residency. I belive they also get a right of residency if they marry a British citizen. So even if we do withdraw from the EU it may not change as much as people hope or fear.

[Editor]

I have locked this thread temporarily so that I can discuss a number of recent posts which have been removed with the moderator team. We do our best to moderate fairly and try to ensure that issues discussed remain local, remain on topic, and abide by the site guidelines and forum agreement.

[Editor]

This thread has been reopened with a new title. The reason why it was temporarily closed and why it's been renamed is explained in this thread.

[Therock]

Mr Editor or Mr Fraser,
Could you please explain who said that they HATE immigrants or the EU. If you are reffering to me I would be very very careful.

[John_fraser]

Nothing to do with me. I'm no longer a moderater and I didn't report any post. Currently I very much disagree with editorial policy and practice here, so don't look to me to justify it.

I think it's very clear to me that quite a few people hate the EU.

[Editor]

Mr Editor or Mr Fraser,
Could you please explain who said that they HATE immigrants or the EU. If you are reffering to me I would be very very careful.

Therock, I don't know who was being referred to in the quote you mentioned because it was made by a forum member and not by me or by any of the moderating team. Probably best take it up directly via the personal message system with the person concerned (not here in the public forum please). Thanks David

[John_fraser]

To make this clear, I have not sent TheRock a PM on this subject.  In fact I don't think I've directly sent him a a message in several years.

[Editor]

To make this clear, I have not sent TheRock a PM on this subject.  In fact I don't think I've directly sent him a a message in several years.

It's probably a misunderstanding of what was written; best discuss it between yourselves via private messages. Thanks

[Peeplins]

TBH, not sure why this thread was re-opened as to my mind there is nothing being debated other than who said what to whom about who, when and where along with some obvious feelings of dissatisfaction about this sites moderators etc. Just back and forth bickering!  Bored!

[trekbat]

Every person who voted "Liberal" has undermined any chance we had of the Tories managing the country properly.
If only we could bring back Winnie and Maggie.

Perhaps the reason people voted so was because not everyone has forgotten the collapsing state of school buildings; underpaid nurses leaving the NHS to become admin assistants (I was on a course with one of them - she was a nurse when we started and a secretary when we finished); people dying on NHS waiting lists; the ERM fiasco; state assets sold off well below their worth (and we've seen how privatisation has led to cheap prices / how the "markets know best"); paying to enter museums...from their previous stint in office.
.
At a local level, the incinerator fiasco and the conduct of elected Conservative councillors is hardly an encouragement to vote for them (and I understand that people in Hatfield Garden Village are also seriously less than enamoured with the performance of their councillor. Already the scene of mass EU migration, the area is likely to lose its village character and engulfed by new housing).
.
Or how Hatfield has been turned into a multicultural slum (and I say that as a member of an ethnic minority):
.
Parts of Hatfield among most deprived in country, new study reveals
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/parts_of_hatfield_among_most_deprived_in_country_new_study_reveals_1_1868858
As for Maggie, while she did rein in the unions she also stuck two fingers up to the Commonwealth and took us deeper into the EU clutches.
.
The world is changing and the West is being overshadowed by the rising new world order:
"FOR years the BRICS countries have insisted they are more than an acronym. To dispel any lingering doubts, the leaders of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, who gathered in the Brazilian city of Fortaleza for their sixth annual summit on July 15th, announced the creation of two financial institutions: the New Development Bank (NDB) to finance infrastructure and “sustainable development” projects, with $50 billion in capital to start with, and the $100 billion Contingent Reserve Arrangement (CRA), to tide over members in financial difficulties.
On the surface, the NDB and the CRA, which must still be approved by the five countries’ parliaments, look like upstart rivals to the World Bank and the IMF..."
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21607851-setting-up-rivals-imf-and-world-bank-easier-running-them-acronym

[John_fraser]

Here's a relevant article on EU immigration:

New EU members add £5bn to UK says research

[trekbat]

I wonder if they took into account the costs of their illegal activities - like facilitating illegal immigration (and I wonder how difficult it is to get fake 'citizenship' papers from some of the new countries that have joined the EU):
 
Eighteen people facing jail after police break sham marriage ring between eastern European brides and Pakistani men
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218420/Eighteen-people-facing-jail-police-break-sham-marriage-ring-eastern-European-brides-Pakistani-men.html


"Fourteen people thought to be part of an international marriage scam have been arrested hours before weddings due to take place in West Yorkshire. The UK Border Agency said it believed ringleaders were making £15,000 per wedding from marriages between European brides and Nigerian grooms. Four men thought to be ringleaders, from Nigeria, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, were arrested on Monday."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/8161347.stm


Fake gay marriages exposed in London
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29223041

[John_fraser]

I wonder if they took into account the costs of their illegal activities - like facilitating illegal immigration (and I wonder how difficult it is to get fake 'citizenship' papers from some of the new countries that have joined the EU):

Have you tried reading the report?

[trekbat]

I should also point out that under current UK law if a person has legally resided here for over five years they get a right of residency. I belive they also get a right of residency if they marry a British citizen. So even if we do withdraw from the EU it may not change as much as people hope or fear.

All the more reason to settle this question once and for all - without any further delays / prevarications.
Let's not forget the EU is set to enlarge even further (and conflicts across North Africa and the Middle East are spreading rapidly, which will lead to even more people trying to flee):
 
EU enlargement: The next seven
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616


Countries preparing to join
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/countries/check-current-status/index_en.htm

[John_fraser]

Us leaving the EU will probably not stop the spread of wars in North Africa, the Middle East or just about anywhere. Nor will it reduce the number of people trying to flee the wars. 

[PS]

Us leaving the EU will probably not stop the spread of wars in North Africa, the Middle East or just about anywhere. Nor will it reduce the number of people trying to flee the wars. 

No it would not reduce the number of people trying to flee - but by making it very clear that the UK had left the EU due to its reluctance to accept an unrestricted and uncontrolled influx into the country, the message that this is simply a land of honey would start to dispel. Get UKIP in place and the message will start to hit home hard.

To the advantageous of the UK for sure.   

[John_fraser]

Looking back at the link I posted, of the top ten countries for immigration

• Only three are EU and of these 1 had a special status which predated the EU & EEC
• Only two are African - Nigeria and South Africa.
• None are North African.
• None are Middle Eastern.
• Only one has a current conflict - Pakistan, and that isn't a full blown war.
• Seven are or were Commonwealth countries.
• Only one is neither EU or Commonwealth - USA

So these figures seem to show withdrawing form the EU and having stronger ties with the Commonwealth, as I belive UKIP proposes, will not fix this (perceived?) problem.

[Therock]

Just look at Switzerland, Most prosperous Country in Europe. NOT in The EU. Lets wait and see shall we and That Immigration
will be top of the Agenda for the Lib Dems, Labour and Cons. UKIP are already on the case and the 3 other so called parties are starting to jump on the Bandwagon. As regards how much the Immigrants put into the Country is not in question its The Million+ Illegals from every corner of the Globe that's the Problem and trying to find them and remove them is a Massive Joke.

Nothing Wrong with immigration but sometimes you have to say enough is enough. Hence all the tv programmes radio programmes and press coverage regarding Immigration.   Its lovely to live in a nice place like Brookmans Park, where house prices are top notch,  and you don't have the problems of street gangs and gangs of different nationalites hanging around. But 4 miles down the road there is a different story. And look at some of the London Boroughs, Camden,Stoke Newington Harringay,Tottenham,Just a few with serious Immigration problems and all this talk about living in harmony side by side. ahahahahahaha Have a walk down Bruce Grove after 6 at night or Edmonton and you will see Harmony alright, but don't wear a watch or carry a bag. Harmony ahahahahaha!

[PS]

Therock......absolutely agree.

Statistics can be fiddled or quite simply, do not show the true picture.

Whenever I get approached by people for surveys on my opinions I either politely turn away the offer, or, and dependent upon the subject have a little fun and state absolute nonsense. If this is representative of stats that are obtained that way as an example, then truly you cannot trust what is "official". This is then used by those who want to use these dodgy stats to support their preferred opinion.

[John_fraser]

P.S. If you are going to dismiss figures you don't like then we have not basis for a debate ant this just becomes people stating anicdotal evidence to support their prejudices.

TheRock, I grew up in Haringey and went to school in Tottenham and Wood Green in the 70s. I spent much of my single days in the area. At no time have I ever known it to be a nice area. But I take what you wrote in the first paragraph as accepting the report, but adding "There's more to this than just GDP."  Would that be a reasonable view?

[PS]

JF - I work with figures all the time......they can be useful of course and are the basis of many decisions - however, they can be distorted to "bend" the results dependent upon the processes adopted in reaching the conclusions.

Then of course, those who favour it to go their way, will serve to interpret them in a different light to suit the circumstances.

Take the Census - do you REALLY think that these include numbers for many illegal immigrants and if they do, will you get honest responses ?

Yet the results are often treated as sacrosanct ...... 

[John_fraser]

No I don't think the census include numbers, or even questions, for illegal immigrants. The numbers of illegal immigrants is calculated using other sources.

But if you refuse to accept the figures you need to provide other ones. Otherwise there are no grounds for debate.

If you feel the issue is illegal immigration as opposed to legal immigration then I think you will find withdrawal from the EU will increase the former while decreasing the latter. In the short term, and I mean decades, it will do little to change the number of immigrants living here due to existing rights of residency.