Author Topic: Squatters Rights  (Read 12078 times)

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Offline BrookyP

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Squatters Rights
« on: August 31, 2012, 08:39:31 am »
Looks like its illegal to squat from today...nice one grant ;D
 

Offline larrylamb

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2012, 08:41:52 am »
Looks like its illegal to squat from today...nice one grant ;D
gonna be awkward for females ;D
 

Offline Editor

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2012, 09:28:53 am »
Looks like its illegal to squat from today...nice one grant ;D

The reasons why we have squatters need to be tackled.  Legal action and fines are one response to a problem, but what's being done to deal with the underlying issues?  The article on BBC News Online touches on this aspect.

Quote
Leslie Morphy, chief executive of the homeless charity Crisis, said legal provisions were already in place for removing squatters from people's homes and the new offence could leave vulnerable people facing jail or a fine they cannot pay.

She said: "It will do nothing to address the underlying reasons why vulnerable people squat in the first place - their homelessness and a lack of affordable housing.

"Ultimately the government needs to tackle why homeless people squat in the first place by helping not punishing them."

The help, not punish aspect needs to be addressed.
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Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2012, 09:57:45 am »
The squatters, like many in today's UK society, have simply had it too easy, and have abused in many cases these "rights" Like several of us, I know of friends who have had the misfortune to have such people in their premises. The fact that they worked damn hard to have properties they left empty whilst working from home meant nothing to these types.....

There are MANY vulnerable people out their who lack affordable housing - are they all squatters ??

No of course not - its just another element manifesting itself as "poor and homeless" with the decent hard working citizen haing to carry the can.

Great news...............
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 10:12:34 am »
The squatters, like many in today's UK society, have simply had it too easy

Those of us with income and a place to live have a lot to be grateful for. It can't be easy without either.
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Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2012, 10:18:04 am »
The squatters, like many in today's UK society, have simply had it too easy

Those of us with income and a place to live have a lot to be grateful for. It can't be easy without either.

Agreed - but then not ALL turn to squatting. Those that do, should realize the consequences of their actions.
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2012, 10:22:29 am »
Agreed - but then not ALL turn to squatting. Those that do, should realize the consequences of their actions.

Equally, society needs to understand and address - in ways other than punitive - the reason for squatting.
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Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 10:36:51 am »
Agreed - but then not ALL turn to squatting. Those that do, should realize the consequences of their actions.

Equally, society needs to understand and address - in ways other than punitive - the reason for squatting.

Oh dear --- this is a minefield.....

One reason could be that the Government have underestimated the population numbers in the UK [due to uncontolled immigration legally or illegally] who have distorted housing funding budgets for 'affordable' housing - as usual, the upright citizen suffers. There are of course, many other reasons, but punitive measures to 'disincentivize' those who would be thinking about it, of course, would start to show that the Govt is putting its citizens first.     
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2012, 10:52:53 am »
... punitive measures to 'disincentivize' those who would be thinking about it, of course, would start to show that the Govt is putting its citizens first.     

Squatters are citizens, too. And the government has a responsibility to address their needs.
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Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2012, 10:59:36 am »
... punitive measures to 'disincentivize' those who would be thinking about it, of course, would start to show that the Govt is putting its citizens first.     

Squatters are citizens, too. And the government has a responsibility to address their needs.
Squatters are citizens of course. However, these new rules will now differentiate between those 'criminally' minded squatters and those 'non-criminally' minded types - the law is the law - unless YOU condone illegal squatting ?? 
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2012, 11:06:11 am »
Squatters are citizens of course. However, these new rules will now differentiate between those 'criminally' minded squatters and those 'non-criminally' minded types - the law is the law - unless YOU condone illegal squatting ?? 

Hi PS,

I am struggling to find the legal definition that will be used to differentiate between what you describe as "criminally minded squatters" and "non-criminally minded types". I am embedding the Ministry of Justice document (August 22, 2012 to be implemented September 1, 2012) on the issue.

<a href="http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/legislation/bills-acts/circulars/squatting-circular.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/legislation/bills-acts/circulars/squatting-circular.pdf</a>

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Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2012, 11:20:04 am »
It would seem that the differention between what can be construed as 'legal' & 'illegal' is the permission from the owner, which before hand was not the case. Before you entered and had 'squatters rights' and [some citizens - short of hiring some ' bouncers' to take care of the situation] would be the ones who would have had to take a lengthy and expensive way out by removing them. Now, with no permission, this process should be eliminated - let the Government do the 'bouncing'

Of course, the vulnerable types on no income would not afford to pay a fine, so the next stop would be a stretch inside  - something which the owner would see as a welcome relief and justice done.   
 

Offline Big Red Daddy

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 09:30:43 pm »
Sorry but I cannot see any legitimate reason to squat. If its not yours, you shouldn't be allowed to enter. Simple. No justification.
 

Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 05:13:02 am »
Sorry but I cannot see any legitimate reason to squat. If its not yours, you shouldn't be allowed to enter. Simple. No justification.
Precisely......which is why this new rule serves to close the loophole that had previously allowed them to take advantage of squatters 'rights' - what a misnomer !!

Now there is no excuse....if those of that mind DO find a way in, then lets ensure the law punishes them to the  fullest extent possible. 
 

Offline Greybeard

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2012, 07:24:41 am »
Quote
Squatters are citizens, too. And the government has a responsibility to address their needs.
To each according to their needs?

Now, where have I heard that before....
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2012, 07:59:47 am »
Quote
Squatters are citizens, too. And the government has a responsibility to address their needs.
To each according to their needs?

Now, where have I heard that before....

Are you suggesting that squatters are not citizens and that the government doesn't have a responsibility to address their needs?

Now there is no excuse....if those of that mind DO find a way in, then lets ensure the law punishes them to the  fullest extent possible. 

The answer must be to find ways to help those facing tough times, not issue fines and jail sentences to add to their misery.
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Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2012, 09:47:03 am »
Now there is no excuse....if those of that mind DO find a way in, then lets ensure the law punishes them to the  fullest extent possible. 

The answer must be to find ways to help those facing tough times, not issue fines and jail sentences to add to their misery.

And what about the misery inflicted upon the owners who, as usual, with this Governement, will receive no assistance whatsoever, will suffer financial distress in paying out legal fees to have them removed - and all for the doing the right thing. Buying their own home, quite often under great financial struggles, so as to support themselves and not leech off the state - only to be penalised.

No wonder some owners resorted to using 'bouncers' to get rid of the squatters. Easier that way.       
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2012, 09:54:59 am »
all for the doing the right thing. Buying their own home, quite often under great financial struggles, so as to support themselves and not leech off the state

But PS, not all are in the position to do what you describe as "the right thing". A civilised, welfare state should be there for all citizens, particularly the needy. In its absence it's often left to charities to care for those in need.
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Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2012, 10:07:59 am »
But David,  then why doesn't the Govt do the right thing and protect those owners that pay due taxes when it comes wanting to pay their legal fees when wishing to remove squatters ? No as usual, under the old 'squatters' rights, it was the squatters that received all the legal [free] aid paid by the tax payer once, and then the tax paying owners then having to pay themselves AGAIN to have them removed.

Furthermore, there are many in other parts of the world under far more abject poverty than those in the UK and do not commit anywhere close to the crimes that those do in the UK - reason - softness.

Although I do not condone it, I can fully understand why many in the UK now seek not top pay their due 'taxes' when they can......
 
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2012, 10:19:11 am »
Hi PS, my concern is that fines and jail sentences are a reaction to one particular response to housing need. I am not convinced such a response solves anything in the long term.  As I said in my first post in this thread, the reason why we have squatters needs to be tackled. I am still convinced that help, not punishment is the right response.
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Offline Greybeard

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2012, 10:28:08 am »
Someone who "borrows" my car has no rights. But they might prefer that to walking or taking a bus.

If squatters had been in the habit of leaving when they were asked to, and leaving the property as they found it, there might not have been the pressure to change the law.

Don't local authorities have an obligation to rehouse the homeless? Don't they have the power to bring empty homes back into use?
 

Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2012, 11:42:40 am »
Hi PS, my concern is that fines and jail sentences are a reaction to one particular response to housing need. I am not convinced such a response solves anything in the long term.  As I said in my first post in this thread, the reason why we have squatters needs to be tackled. I am still convinced that help, not punishment is the right response.

I assume that 'squatters' are those that cannot 'afford' housing, therefore they cannot 'afford' the fines. So jail is the apparent solution.

There are of course, those squatters who have acquired their newly achieved status by drink / drug self abuse - it woud do them good to have a term inside, if only for re-hab.

Tackling the cause of many major issues in our society [including squatting] is not always the main response - its all too clear that abuse has been allowed to get out of hand. A little bit of heavy handidness to prevent the marginals from abusing the system can only do good for our society.

As regards Greybeards posting, there are probably many houses that would otherwise have become available, if, for instance our 'asylum' seekeants were not given top priority. Furthermore, he is correct to point out that, when faced with eventual eviction, [as in the case of our  friends house] they ensured they deliberately left the place in a real mess - to add yet further distress to the owners. 

The causes are many - the bottom line is - the UK taxpayer should NOT be made to suffer as a result of crime. of any soert, including squatting.   

Squatters ??? I have no time for them...
 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2012, 12:10:59 pm »
The Shelter website has an article about what it's like to be homeless or live in inadequate housing.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/campaigns/why_we_campaign/tackling_homelessness/what_is_homelessness_like

And another piece on the impact on children and families.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/campaigns/why_we_campaign/supporting_families_and_children

I suppose if we did more to address the cause, then squatting might be less of an issue.


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Offline larrylamb

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2012, 01:27:20 pm »
It is about degree, if you have a family that has contributed fairly to this country and through no fault of their own have resorted to squating as a absolute last resort, then they should be treated with more compassion than those at the other end of the scale.
 

Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2012, 03:18:22 pm »
Isn't it amazing how there is absolutely no concern at all - even from any poster on this site - about the effects it has on the owner. Not once have we had any sign of compassion for the very ones who have suffered and are the victims of this abuse.

NOT ONCE !!!!!

Nice article David, but what about the Mental and Physical affects it has on the owners who have suffered this blantant rape on their properties ?????

No wonder the UK is such a mess - no concern for the ones that have for many years provided this society with the "right approach" ?? Those who strive to gain a little something in their lives are shown no respect. The very fabric of society that keeps the genuine undesirables free from genuine prosecution and are free to do as they wish.

Oh this once Great Britain is now merely a shadow of its former self.
 
 

Offline larrylamb

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2012, 03:43:51 pm »
Isn't it amazing how there is absolutely no concern at all - even from any poster on this site - about the effects it has on the owner. Not once have we had any sign of compassion for the very ones who have suffered and are the victims of this abuse.

NOT ONCE !!!!!

Nice article David, but what about the Mental and Physical affects it has on the owners who have suffered this blantant rape on their properties ?????

No wonder the UK is such a mess - no concern for the ones that have for many years provided this society with the "right approach" ?? Those who strive to gain a little something in their lives are shown no respect. The very fabric of society that keeps the genuine undesirables free from genuine prosecution and are free to do as they wish.

Oh this once Great Britain is now merely a shadow of its former self.
 
I do agree with you PS, just saying that all the mitigating factors, if any, need to be considered before the level of punishment is determined.

 

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2012, 03:48:21 pm »
Isn't it amazing how there is absolutely no concern at all - even from any poster on this site - about the effects it has on the owner. Not once have we had any sign of compassion for the very ones who have suffered and are the victims of this abuse.

Hi PS, not really, the thread is about a change in legislation that affects squatters. I am sure all reasonable people have compassion for those whose homes are used by squatters, but that is another topic.
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Offline Peter Hastings

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2012, 04:47:54 pm »
There were already clear civil remedies for this wrong which could be enforced through accelerated court proceedings. What needs to happen is for courts to be given more, not less, funding and made more efficient at protecting peoples rights.

I am really unsure how landing this on the police agenda is actually going to work. They will have to gather enough information to allow them to assess the competing allegations of rights over a property-basically the job the county court judge was doing. Apart from the most blatant cases this will still be the classic "civil matter" that should be dealt with by efficiently run courts with quick court hearings and experienced and well trained judges. You then get an order and a warrant which you can enforce with the help of the police if thought necessary. Their job it so to keep the peace and prevent physical violence, not determine competing property rights.

Thought about this for a while but in the end not convinced this is the way to go.
 

Offline PS

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2012, 05:53:24 pm »
Their job it so to keep the peace and prevent physical violence, not determine competing property rights.

Thought about this for a while but in the end not convinced this is the way to go.

Not determine competing rights ???????????????/

The owner NOT the squatter has legal entitlement to the property.

Ok so if you are not sure, then perhaps the well tried and tested approach of 'turfing them out' by other means is to be seriously considered .... something any owner found in that unfortunate position should do.
 

Offline Mr Green

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Re: Squatters Rights
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2012, 06:09:19 pm »
I am really unsure how landing this on the police agenda is actually going to work. They will have to gather enough information to allow them to assess the competing allegations
The police have been crying out for this power. There isnít much need for information gathering, the facts are normally self evident. At last the police can bring an incident to a speedy conclusion. This is one of the best powers given to police since the power to seize uninsured vehicles.
There were already clear civil remedies for this wrong which could be enforced through accelerated court proceedings.
Get real. This isnít a dispute which needs adjudication.  Squatters should be prosecuted and fined.  Why should a homeowner be forced to pay legal fees to get someone out of their home only to see the squatter receive no punishment and just walk straight into someone elseís. The homeowner is a victim and the law should protect him. 
 

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