Author Topic: Flats in Brookmans Park  (Read 76632 times)

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Offline Editor

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2005, 10:44:21 pm »
Bob, can you remind us how many parking spaces have been set aside for the flats on Georges Wood Road please? Is it ten spaces for six flats?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 10:44:57 pm by admin »
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Offline shads

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2005, 11:24:15 am »
Hi guys what was the outcome ??
 

Offline Neville Hobbs

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2005, 11:41:48 am »
Hi Shads,

It says above that the planning meeting is on 17th February.  :)
Prev stated March in error.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 12:15:23 pm by WINDSORS »
 

Offline shads

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2005, 12:01:34 pm »
sry should have read properly first.......oh and on reading again it says the 17th  Feb not Mar.........so i'm 2 days premature and Nevilles a month late
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2005, 07:10:02 pm »
Dave asked about the number of on-site car spaces for the two planning applications.

2 Georges Wood Rd is for 6 flats with 10 car spaces.
1-3 GWR is for 10 flats and 16 car spaces.

The District Plan says a maximum of 1.5 car spaces per dwelling, so you can have an ordinary car and a Smart car - but not the 4 seater version!  Only joking  ;).  But no visitors with a car.

As I understand it, because GWR is unadopted, no traffic restrictions can be put in place at that junction with the A1000, and any yellow lines would have no legal standing.  Residents in Pine Grove tell me that the number of cars parked on the road caused by Chancellor's is increasing, with 6th formers going to school in their own cars.  A vehicle is regularly parked on this section of GWR apparently.  All ingredients for an accident if you ask me.  

Offline eric

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2005, 05:54:30 pm »
given that today's "Kyoto Day" it'd be interesting to know if Chancellors have got a "green" transport plan.  And if not, why not ?    School children claim to the be the most environmentally aware
 

Offline Blue Friday

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2005, 10:58:08 am »
In answer to a question regarding cycling as an alternative means of transport to the site, the planning application for the new ICT building at Chancellors includes the following:-

"We understand that a travel plan is being developed."

Any ideas what this may be?
 

Offline eric

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2005, 10:19:50 am »
it will be interesting to see what happens about this travel plan    What it says, and what it actually delivers.

Its supposed to set out how to reduce wasteful private traffic movements by cars by pushing for more car-sharing, more walking, more cycling and saving oil resources, reducing air pollution

Looking at some websites it seems that the vast majority will be untouched by these practical efforts and will just go on devouring our planet -

"we're all green and aware because I recycle a handful of domestic waste each week and drop off my empty booze bottles in the superstore car park     But Give up a car, air holidays, not have a dishwasher ?  Oh no

"I support the green belt:   look how much the price of my property has gone up

"its raining  I must drive my child to school     And the place is stiff with muggers

"there's no where to park because the planners have cut provision so as to put people off from driving.    But I NEED to drive so I'll park as close as I can in the nearest residential road


 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2005, 12:47:19 pm »
Good news. :D

On 17 Feb Welwyn Hatfield planning committee refused permission for flats at 2 Georges Wood Road and at 1-3 GWRd.

My thanks to about 10 people who went to the meeting about these two applications - they left as soon as the decisions had been made so I assume they came for that reason.  Also thanks to Parish Cllr Cyril Everard who came with me as support.

Vivian Weeks also spoke as chairman of the Georges Wood Rd Frontagers Assoc.

During the meeting there was some discussion about other parish and town councils who object to planning applications but do not address the planning committee to expand on why they objected.  

This facility to speak has existing for a year now, and in that time North Mymms Parish Council has spoken 8 times now (3 times last night) and been successful 6 times.  Not a bad record.  For the other two times there were good reasons why approval was given, but it was worth speaking to ensure that our objection was well made.

With regard to 4 flats at 9 Bluebridge Road, the application was refused because the building would be an imposing, dominant structure out of character with the area, have an adverse impact on the street scene, and appear cramped within the plot.

Offline jet

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2005, 12:05:22 pm »
It seems strange that in a village where the in thing seems to be to build the largest mansion that will fill the plot or the ugliest extension possible that there can be so much objection to efficient well designed flats.
We have flats in the village centre which dominate the skyline. No one moans about them.
There seems to be a need for sensible housing because of the influx of so many supposedly neccesary imigrants.
The way forward is to provide flats.
Why should one family have a huge plot when 6 families could be comfortably accomadated in that same area.
Flats and high density housing seem to be acceptable elsewhere so whats so special about BP.
It seems like nimbyism to me.
Or is the real reason snobery.
regards,
jet
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2005, 01:13:07 pm »
The 16 flats would have 26 on-site car spaces.  If the existing three houses were being approved today they would be allowed 2 spaces each, a total 6 off-road parking spaces.  Since some of these flats would be occupied by 2-car families, the 26 off-road spaces would be inadequate particularly when there were visitors, and cause on-street parking.

The government will not allow more parking places than 1.5 per dwelling (but you can't have half a space so it would be 2 per house).

What is already a difficult road junction would become very dangerous with on-street parking possibly for 24 hours a day.  Georges Wood Road is unadopted so there can be no enforceable parking restrictions at that junction.  

I hope that expains the major problem these flats would create.

Offline jet

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2005, 04:48:47 pm »
Am I to take it that government legislaton regarding car parking applies to new dwellings only?
Is it no longer legal to build a dwelling without parking places?
I find this strange.
We have a government that wants to reduce vehicles, yet it insists that parking places are provided.
I suppose that is why the flat where my friend resides in Stevenage which is new has 8 flats and 16 parking places.
I wonder that if the proposed flats were applied for with revised acceptable parking  spaces per flat then the plans would be passed?
This whole thing seems most interesting.
As for parking cars in the street, well lots of houses in Britain have cars parked in the street, nose to tail, so why is GWR any different to anywhere else.
Interesting
BTW the writer has no interests whatsoever in the flats. I am just curious about the whole affair.
regards,
jet
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2005, 07:13:42 pm »
Have you tried to get in or out of Georges Wood Road at school run times or rush hours?  The road width is only sufficient for two vehicles, one either direction.  So one or more vehicles parked close to that junction will be a hazard and lead to accidents.

Offline jet

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2005, 11:40:09 pm »
No different to anywhere else at school time then :)
regards,
jet
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2005, 05:57:14 pm »
Apart from the 6th formers who travel to school in their cars and park all day, then form part of the school run traffic.

Offline Johnny Redd

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2005, 07:08:39 pm »
If this has been covered elsewhere then I apologise but Windsors have a sold board on the patch of land at 65 Peplins Way which states that it has been sold for development. Any ideas what is planned?????

:) >:( :o ??? :-\
 

Offline Neville Hobbs

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2005, 07:58:21 pm »
I know. It's 63a actually. :)

One four bedroom detached house with 2 bathrooms and a single garage - and jolly nice it will be too!

It will be for sale when it is built.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 08:06:18 pm by WINDSORS »
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2005, 01:15:38 pm »
Welwyn Hatfield Council gave outline approval for a detached house on 13 August 2004.  This established the principle of building a house on the land.  Obviously this increased the value of the land.

Apparently this site was an access from Peplins Way road to railway land at the rear of some of the houses.  That rear land and access was acquired by the owners of those houses a few years ago enabling  them to extend their gardens down to the railway boundary.  So this access is now  redundant.  Some of the trees may be covered by a Tree Preservation Order.

This is a good example of 'infilling' and 'windfall' sites that help reduce the pressures to build on the Green Belt.

Before work can begin a detailed application will have to be made and approved, which will firm up the design of the house, protection of the trees etc.

CAR PARKING
In reply to JET's queries, it only applies to new housing.  The Government's PPG3 (Planning Policy Guidance Note 3) on Housing says at paragraph 62:
'Car parking standards that result, on average, in development with more than 1.5 off-street car parking spaces per dwelling are unlikely to reflect the Government's emphasis on securing sustainable residential environments.  Policies (in District Plans) which would result in higher levels of off-street parking, especially in urban area, should not be adopted'.  

These are maximum numbers, not minimums.  PPG3 paragraph 61 says that significantly lower levels should be allowed for housing for the elderly, students and single people where the demand for car parking is likely to be less than for family housing.  

I am sure residents of Hatfield will NOT agree with that, having attended Welwyn Hatfield planning committee meetings where student parking is a sore point.  

If you want the full text of PPG3 visit www.odpm.gov.uk and go to Planning and then PPGs.

PPG3 was updated in March 2000.  It is possible that the Stevenage development was given planning permission before that date, which is why it has more than 1.5 spaces per flat.

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2005, 11:48:27 am »
Life is never dull, even in the 'quiet' month of August.

A new application has just been made for 12 flats at 1-3 Georges Wood Road.  Anyone who wrote to the council about the previous application may have been notified of this new one.  If not, I can let anyone have info once I have seen the application after 9 August.  You can e-mail me via this Forum.

The previous application for 10 flats was refused and the applicant has appealed.  That hearing will be on 6 December.  Just to complete the picture, applications for 6 flats opposite at 2 Georges Wood Road were also refused and an appeal made, with no date set for the hearing so far.

An appeal has also just been made concerning 9 Bluebridge Road.  The council refused permission to demolish the house, which is opposite the church, and replace with a block of 4 flats.  All those who wrote objecting to this application should have been notified by the council, but I can let anyone have info if they e-mail me via this Forum.

Offline flw67

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2005, 12:36:51 pm »
Why do you have a problem with these houses being turned into flats? 

People seems to get quite excited at the prospect of another planning application going in, just so they can all get together and complain about it.

There are some elderly people who live in BP who would like to move to a flat in the area, if they are well designed and easy on the eye, whats the problem?
 

Offline Govvy

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2005, 02:34:25 pm »
heh, don't you think they would get the hint by now that we don't want flats in Georges Wood Road?

I think we should forward something that can finally put a stop to it, there must be some way to say that those plots are for houses only and no flats can be built on that bit of land. Its hard enough seeing left and right there to have some massive building in the way to block your line of site.
 

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2005, 05:40:07 pm »
I agree with flw67. I see no harm in the idea of building flats per se, or of converting existing houses into flats. Obviously, any new building has got to be designed to fit in, but otherwise, what of it?
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #82 on: August 05, 2005, 11:24:52 am »
Parking is the major problem with the proposed flats on each side of Georges Wood Road next to the junction with the A1000.  The District Council maximum is 1.5 spaces per dwelling off-street.  These flats will attract two-car families, and when there are visitors there will be even more cars wanting to park on or close to the site of the flats.  This junction is already a hazard as anyone will know if you want to turn right out of Georges Wood Road onto the A1000. 

It is not legally possible to put yellow lines on the corner because GW Rd is unadopted.  Even if the GWR Frontagers Assoc were to paint yellow lines they would have no legal standing.

As for flats generally in the village, there are many houses on large plots of land.  Once approval is given to demolish one and erect a block of flats, it will set a precedent for many of the other large plots of land.  It will change the character of the village.

35 years ago I lived in Putney and the character of that pleasant area was changed by the demolition of large houses and replacement by blocks of flats.  Also take to trip down the A1000 to Totteridge and see all the blocks of flats lining each side of the A1000.  Developers would love to buy several adjoining properties in BP and replace with 'luxury' apartments.  Has anyone ever seen a sign advertising any that are not 'luxury'?  They would offer a substantial sum over market price to make it difficult to refuse.

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #83 on: August 05, 2005, 12:32:12 pm »
Bob

Can you explain why only 1.5 car spaces are provided per flat ? Is this the maximum or minimum per residence ?

Surely at least 2, if not 3 spaces per flat should be provided these days ??

 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #84 on: August 05, 2005, 03:50:13 pm »
Maximum.  Blame Mr Prescott who is conducting a war against cars.  All in the name of sustainability, whatever that means!  He wants us all to walk, cycle or use public transport.  And live near where we work and play. 

The existing houses at 1-3 GWRd and 2 GWRd have plenty of car parking spaces so there is no on-street parking problem at the moment.  Except when a GT Towing vehicle was parked outside 1-3 GWRd regularly in recent times.  That was just a foretaste of what the parking problem would be if the flats are built.


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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #85 on: August 05, 2005, 05:58:13 pm »
Maximum.  Blame Mr Prescott who is conducting a war against cars. 

The same Mr Prescott who runs two jags?!!! :o
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #86 on: August 05, 2005, 10:56:38 pm »
Bob

Are you actually saying that if a large carpark was incorporated into a planning application for a block of flats, conversion, or whatever, then permission could be refused on the grounds that there was too much parking provision ?

As the previous poster has said, Prescott is hardly qualified to implement these ridiculous rules.

I think it is right that as a general rule flats should not be encouraged in BP as it would alter the character of the area. That affects everyone who lives here, and I guess the large majority own our properties. It's likely that many flat developments will be undertaken by developers who don't live here and are motivated only by profit. So, after some consideration, I have to agree with Bob that such developments should be resisted.

There are several flats for sale in the village at the moment so it is not as though such properties are unavailable.
 

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #87 on: August 06, 2005, 02:01:36 am »
For those that do not know, "sustainability" in this context means trying to regulate our energy consumption so as not to exceed our means for energy production, usually with an eye to the indisputable fact that at the moment we are all benefiting from a cheap and so far abundant source of energy (oil) that is shortly going to run out, and for which there is as yet, no obvious, proven replacement.  As travel by individuals in cars is far less energy efficient than most other means of transport (bus, train, bicycle etc) it follows that the use of cars is, wherever possible, to be discouraged. Prescott is absolutely right on this point.

Off the topic I know, but it seems that some clarification was required on this point.

All I can say is that anyone who thinks parking is a problem in Georges Wood Road should try living where I do for a few weeks! There is no problem whatsoever that I can see.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #88 on: August 06, 2005, 03:59:54 pm »
Travel by individuals in cars is in fact highly efficient, much more so than any form of public transport.
The car get one from where one is to where ones wants to go, anytime.
Of course this relates to sensible cars ( ie not 4wds).
As for sustainability, why are the governments of the British Isles ttrying their best to overload the sysems.
The answer I imagine is tax generation for silly ideas like wars and things.
regards,
jet
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Flats in Brookmans Park
« Reply #89 on: August 08, 2005, 10:46:02 am »
In reply to Sasquartch, my guess is that the applicant would be told to submit new plans with no more than the maximum number of car spaces.

Having said that, the latest application for a country house at Friday Grove, Hawkshead Road, shows garaging and open air parking in excess of the 1.5 figure.  Curious!  Apart from the basic objection to this house on Green Belt land, the NM Green Belt Soc also commented on the apparent excess parking provision.

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