Welham Green by-election

[Peter Hastings]

I dont quite understand what comes across as a defensive stance PS. 

Sure the main stream democratic parties need to up their game. My great concern was that with a low turnout and some scaremongering, the BNP might win. I am glad to say all the main parties put a lot of effort into the campaign, the people responded with a relatively high turnout and the contest was between two mainstream parties.

The small but noticeable vote for the BNP is indeed a warning. Are you suggesting it is something else?

There is no room for complacency by anyone but basically the BNP is an extreme protest vote party which thrives on division and therefore operates by trying to spread it. As long as voters are as smart as those in Welham Green, the BNP is going nowhere fast.

[PS]

Peter - [I cannot resisit this debate !!] The small but noticeable vote for the BNP is indeed a warning comment you make is exactly the problem !! History informs us how in period, pre 2nd world war Germany, the neo-nazis were the only party that offered hope to a growing and discontent society [with problems not to dissimilar to what we have today in the UK],whilst the traditionalists stood back and slept. The problems continued to grow, but they still slept, and then it was too late. Does this ring a bell with our UK traditionalist political parties currently ? Have they not slept through the problems as they have grown ? Are they doing anything about it as the problems continue to grow, and indeed WILL they do anything about them as the problems escalate ? So far, their track records suggest parallels along that dark period in German history. Remember also the talk about economic slowdown and a very real possibilty of a recession heading our way. Who do you think that our voters are going to blame ? And do you seriously believe that they will continue to tolerate a "free for all scrounger" society any longer ? UK Ltd will be bankrupt and voters will NOT be at all happy with the traditionalists, seeking and turning to hope and salvation and a return to normality.

You also mention that if the voters are as smart as those in Welham Green, then the BNP is going nowhere fast. Are you suggesting that the German people at that time were not smart either? But the inevitable happened.

Furthermore, UAF website poses that the BNP vote in councuil elections in 2000 was 3,022, in 2003 was 101,221 and in 2007 was 292,911 - can you also see a correlation over this period of 7 years the worsening problems in the Uk that can only get worse ?

The warning to me is very clear - the hare and the tortoise comes to mind.

[Peter Hastings]

I think we're in agreement arent we? I have warned against complacency and I entirely agree that if there is serious economic and social breakdown (as there was in Germany after WWI) such a party would stand more chance. No time for anyone to sit on their laurels.

I think also I wanted to emphasise that I dont really see someone like the BNP as an alternative. They just seem to thrive on misfortune and encourage it. They are not competing in the same race as the others (no pun intended), which is why to me they could never be an option.

[jet]

Perhaps we should be looking at the BNP as New BNP.
Its all very well being anti BNP from the security of BP, however for those in the cities BNP offers a way for frustrated indigenous nationals of all races who are disenchanted with being third class.
Note it is the British not English national party.

[stevea]

PS You have still not addressed the history of the BNP. Interestingly, their policies are akin to the National Front, however, the BNP has recently updated its website and I notice that membership requirements regarding religion, race etc are not clearly stated as they previously were only a week or so ago. I wonder why the site has been toned down....mmmmm. I have to say that the site for the National Front does not appear to be as polished.

JET As for calling the BNP - the New BNP - I think my above comments say it all.  Unfortunately, none of us seem to be really happy with any political party - and there is no such thing as a perfect party - be a good name for one though!

[PS]

Insert Quote
PS You have still not addressed the history of the BNP.

Stevea - whatever the history of the BNP was, is no reflection of how they will perform in the future. Our society is bending towards reaching out for such a support. Unfortunately, our traditional parties HAVE shown us their recent history - which can be described as incompetence, inefficiency and a failure to tackle the real issues facing this country today. Who would you suppose the man in the street will be inclined to vote for in ever increasing numbers going forward ? An incompetent and sleeping traditional party or one that offers hope ? Can you please address that one ?

[stevea]

PS. I'm a bit confused. You stated "whatever the history of the BNP was, is no reflection of how they will perform in the future".   Let me put something else to you instead.   The BNP has links to;- National Alliance (the foremost Nazi group in the US), David Duke (former Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan), National Democratic Party (Germany's leading Nazi group), Front National (French fascist group) etc etc

Nick Griffin - Chairman of the BNP -earned a two year suspended sentence in 1998 for inciting race hatred by denying that the Holocaust ever took place.  I could carry on and on about his National Front background etc  - but you'd know all about him so no need for me to continue.   

Surely the history of the BNP and its links of today has a major reflection of how they will perform in the future.

[PS]

Stevea - I am very aware of the BNP history - problem is how many others really are ? Try talking to some youngsters today and you will discover how little they know about  "history" [for example, at Xmas I was shocked when, in conversation with another client in a local in Welham Green, one of the students working behind the bar did'nt not know what the Berlin Wall was and when it was demolished !!] So my question still remains to my last posting -  Who would you suppose the man in the street will be inclined to vote for in ever increasing numbers going forward ? An incompetent and sleeping traditional party or one that offers hope ? Can you please address that one ?

[peppermint]

PS - You seem keen to keep this subject open.   It seems obvious to me where your sympathies lie.  

I was visited "mob handed" by three BNP representatives during the run up to the elections.
I have to say that I felt quite intimidated by one of them whose manner was very defensive and aggressive.   He changed his tact when I disagreed with his views, trying to give the impression that he was worried about the way our country is going and giving the same arguements that you are giving.   Unfortunately he could not hide his racist views.

There is not a great "feel good factor" in this country at the moment.    This many well have something to do with the way our country is being run but I do think we are responsible individually for how we live our lives and bring up our children and the morals that we have.

We certainly do not need our country to be run by a political party who clearly have no morals.

[peppermint]

PS - And where would you build the next Berlin Wall ............. Dover?

[PS]

Peppermint - PS - And where would you build the next Berlin Wall ............. Dover Yes if it keeps the illegals out that are costing YOU money, are using YOUR services illegally and no doubt earning via less than dubious means. Also, if many places around the world can have strict controls, why can't we ? I travel a lot on business - try going through an entry point in Japan, like I did last Dec 07 : you will be fingerprinted, iris scanned and even automatic scans to take your temperature as you attempt to go through immigration [any raised temperatures and your out]

Are these countries BNP orientated ? No of course not. They are merely sensible. I cannot imagine if I tried to get into a country without a proper visa etc [you know the answer to that] You also know that uncontrolled immigration brings the problems we face today.

No sensible person would reject any of the above But ...I expect your sympathies lie with the with current govt policy - as you may well be an illegal   

[peppermint]

PS - Firstly, I have no alliance to any political party but I dont like racism.

The problems we have in this country are not caused by immigrants.

I think it is particularly insulting to anyone on this planet to assume they are not worthy of living in another country just because that is not where they come from.

I would suggest there are many English people living in this country today who are much less desirable as residents than many of the immigrants who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families.

I do agree that immigration controls are virtually non existent in this country and I would like to see them improved so that unless they are being persecuted in their own country, people have to show that they can contribute towards a positive future for our country.   Unfortunately,  I dont believe that is your point and certainly is not the aim of the BNP!

[PS]

Peppermint - I am afraid you are quite wrong in your viewsabout me. I have no problem absolutely with good and sound immigrants coming into our country, contributing to society and on the whole gaining respect and bettering themselves. I am however, totally against illegal immigrants. They can only be here for one purpose - economic gain, usually by foul means as they have no other way to support themselves. You will also note from my earlier postings, that I advocated the end of home grown benefit scoungers [whom I am also totally against] and the Tories who seem to be only party to have taken this on board. Yes - if you have a skill that the UK resident does not have [or is unwilling to learn for] and it is needed, then via controlled immigration, by all means I have no problem. Afetr all, the converse happens all the time, with myself having worked in various locations around the world in my life. The MAIN difference ? It has always been controlled by work / resident permits and visas via legal means.

The NU Labour lot, Tories and Lib Dems have been ineffective in controlling immigration, doing anything about crime, benefit scroungers etc, etc and etc.  And unfortunately, BNP will be there to fill the gap.

For the record, and the Editor will know via my e mail address, that my surname shows I am too from an immigrant family with both my parents having come in from Europe after the second world war to settle in the UK. So don't anyone preach me on fascism please !! Furthermore, when alive, they worked all the hours that god sent, NEVER committed even so much as a minor motoring offence [ie parking ticket] and have respected the UK all their lives.

My real concern lies in the fact that our political parties are doing nothing - "dozing" as my parents decades ago used to say to me that happened where they lived, thereby allowing the more extreme elements to take eventual control, and the rest is history.

Again, you Nu Labour, Tories and Lib Dems WAKE UP !!

[Editor]

I think it is particularly insulting to anyone on this planet to assume they are not worthy of living in another country just because that is not where they come from.

I would suggest there are many English people living in this country today who are much less desirable as residents than many of the immigrants who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families.

Well put, Peppermint.

David

[peppermint]

PS   - Firstly, I dont believe I was preaching to you about fascism but you are entitled to your opinion.

It would seem that perhaps your opinions are being misunderstood.   If what you are saying is that it is present government policy that has led to the problems in this country and that all the other mainstream parties are no better, you are probably right.   Unfortunately you also seem to be saying that  the man in the street has the choice of voting for 

An incompetent and sleeping traditional party or one that offers hope ? [/color]

[John_fraser]

I have no problem absolutely with good and sound immigrants coming into our country, contributing to society and on the whole gaining respect and bettering themselves.

which is very much not the policy of the BNP

Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases

[jet]

Well, here I go, totally un PC but IMHO a fair observation.
Subsequent to the foisting of the EU, EEC at al on this Island the problems we experience today have been contributed to by the Wall coming down.
We need to go back to old fashioned customs and excise at all points of entry.
Anyone can walk in of the ferry or even in some circumstances the airport, yet.
I have to provide full details when I travel out to the point of insult. Considering I am a British citizen this is bizzare. The controls at airports leaving England are ridiculous. They are more to do with finding out how much people will take without question, rather than any attempt at realistic security. I make a point of complaining at the treatment I recieve. If animals were herded in such a way there would be an outcry.
The USA for example will not let anyone settle or even work in America if they come from Britain except for exceptional circumstances, even a family relationship does not count anymore. Why? because Britain has let in so many undesirables that the USA does not want to risk the credentials of anyone with a British passport anymore.
Crime, fact, Eastern European criminals convicted in Britain have increased by 4 times, while the criminal conviction rate of indiginous persons has decreased.
In Ireland alcohol, drug, driving convictions and road deaths have increased by a disproportionate ammount amongst the most recent influx of EU members. They arrogantly flount the law.
Now its all very well for people to altuistically pontificate from the seclusion of BP but the reality for the majority of people in the country is thats things are absolutely awful.
Having ecently spent over 6 weeks in N London etc I can assure you all that it is a criminal battlefield in the cities and towns of this country. The majority of trouble is not caused by settled British citizens it is caused by transient illegal immigrants who are either forced towards crime by the shameful way that they are treated or because they are criminals who find easy pickings due to a  lack of any form of law and order caused by the police having their hands tied by EU laws and smart lawyers who make the most of it.
Lots of you will think I am harsh, but sometimes one can observe with a little more impartiality if one is removed directly from the problem.
There is a tendancy for people to accept things if they are allowed to steadily change. its part of the English way of giving people chances and fair play. Unfortunately this is exploited by those who wish to take advantage.
Just ask yourelves a few questions, why are the roads congested? why are hospital waiting lists so high? why are we running out of space? why are we polluted etc. It isn't because the island is underpopulated is it?
Time to reduce the inbalance in population lest we end up with festering fascist Nazism caused by a backlash as in the 1930s. Any back lash would most likely not be resulting from the English ethnic community.

[stevea]

PS Every living creature has the right to live on this planet and where they want - not where you want them to be.
Some of the people that come to this country have no choice. Many do it in sheer desperation, I would probably do the same if I had a wife and children. Think about it. If there was no other choice, what would you do? If you were in their shoes you would probably do the same thing but your attitude is I'm alright Jack, up yours.   So you thimk making Nick Griffin PM and putting all his cronies into power is the answer - and the only hope for the UK. Anyone with half a brain would think not.   The only reason that illegal immigrants come to such countries as the UK and Ireland etc is because of the strong economies and that means work. Both Labour and Tory governments have boasted good economies. It's obvious where the illegal immigrant is going to go - it's human nature. You can''t have it all. You can't have your cake and eat it. This is 2008, not 1958. The population has grown with or without illegal immigrants in the UK. That is a fact. This is a worldwide problem. By the way, this is a quote from Nick Griffin, the man that the BNP want for PM;- "I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that 6 million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat...I have reached the conclusion that the extermination tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter-day witch-hysteria".    Need I say more. Just another bit of modern day history for the BNP.

PEPPERMINT Totally agree with your posts

[PS]

Jet - I have to say that I agree with your points 100 % - this is EXACTLY why we have the problems in the UK today that we do. I have travelled extensively, both for pleasure but mainly for business over the last 30 years including my University days to 98 countries so I believe what you say makes a lot of sense, as there are VERY few countries that I know of that will allow the situation in the UK to be extended to within their own borders - whether underdeveloped. developing or fully developed.
Stevea - again I have no problem with legal immigrants, but you say EVERYONE has the right to be here regardless of their circumstances - I really cannot believe that anyone can say that - are you serious ? So you actually advocate the idea of illegal immigrants arriving into this country, flout the rules [re : Jets post] and expect to remain here ?  Furthermore are you GENUINELY happy with paying ever increasing amounts of taxation both direct and stealth that is clearly the result of your beliefs ? That we have to support all and sundry from our own pockets in a never ending and increasing amount whilst they have contributed ZERO ? Do you realise that eventually at this rate we will simply break down as a civilised society and revert back to a third world nation ? Do you think this will get better over the coming years ? Pockets run dry you know, and that can only lead us one place - the ultimate downfall of our country.

Furthermore, MANY countries are simply being sensible - Japan [re business trip last Dec 07] have sensible border controls - only because they know the consequences if they do not. They are also highly developed but do not suffer the UK style problems. Why ? Because unlike the UK they are not a soft touch. Anyone with even one brain cell will know the UK is a soft touch.

Let me put something else to you - and this is a fact. I have spoken to many people in different countries [in fact I work in West Africa at the moment] and only yesterday during a discussion at lunch I had, the locals were literally taking the UK as a joke - easy entry, how they know people getting easy visas to enter and the tricks they use [the British Embassy here  confirm that once they grant 1 entry then 10 are sure to follow as a result of family "illnesses", marriage connections etc etc and etc.] Talking to the locals, THEY DO NOT EVEN SHOW RESPECT FOR THE UK - but regard it as a place of salvation and easy money. One actually confirmed that his brother entered illegally, and was forced to take up crime to support himself, AND RETURN MONEY FROM THE UK TO WEST AFRICA !! Courtesy of the UK citizen !!

Stevea, you are being duped - along with all the others that hold your "open door" policies as the illegals show no respect for you or your families. And you simply advocate this. And this is why we have the problems we have. If ALL had just a little common sense, this type of nonsense could be better controlled, the UK citizen together with the legal immigrants could live and work together well, and believe me, you would not get the kind of jokes and p*ss taking from the locals that we Britts suffer all around the world.

Putting into the context these problems, is exactly why the BNP are rising in a not inconsiderable trend. To actually believe that on their first attempt in the Welham Green by election they gain  214 seats compared to 88 Labour [our govt] is quite an achievement. And please, forget the old "protest vote" record will you.

[stevea]

PS Firstly, I did not say that everyone has the right to be here. I said every living creature has the right to live on this planet and where they want - not where you want them to be.

Secondly, you are representing the BNP extremely well. You have ignored ALL my comments about the BNP and about Nick Griffin and side track constantly implying that I have no commonsense.

Thirdly, there is no way that you can equate Japan to the UK and Europe.  The Asia Pacific region is a totally different ballgame, especially where Japan is situated.  I have also travelled and worked abroad extensively.

Looking at the BNP policies once again, I notice that the BNP is to "offer a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentive both for individuals and countries".  Who would be left in the UK?
Just 'White, Anglo Saxon's' You mentioned that your family were immigrants - what would happen to you?   This policy has been toned down recently by the BNP - you just have to look at the more blatant policies of the National Front and smooth them out for better reading in the BNP site.   To be honest, I find it quite strange that you said that nobody should preach you on fascism.

[PS]

Stevea - Answers to your questions (1) you "implied" that anyonehas the right to be here without really saying it (2) BNP history is no reflection of the future.

Now perhaps you can return answers to all the questions that I put to you in recent posts too numerous to list [please go back and answer] One further relating to this post -  Thirdly, there is no way that you can equate Japan to the UK and Europe.  The Asia Pacific region is a totally different ballgame, especially where Japan is situated. Explain ? Or is it that "political correctness" and / or the traditional political parties' ineffectiveness is the reason why so many voters are starting to abandon them ?

But the main question I put to you is - why were the BNP so much more successful in the WG By-election than our suuposed Nu Labour govt ? I would really love to hear your explanation on that one .

[ADM]

Every living creature has the right to live on this planet and where they want - not where you want them to be.

Foxes.  My garden.  I don't think so.

[John_fraser]

PS you agree with Jet's ill considered rant mostly because it agrees with your own prejudices (note I did not say "racial prejudices"). You do not even see the irony that an immigrant should voice support for a crack down on immigration in the country he left behind.

The majority of legal immigrants support them self via hard work and pay taxes. There is a reason why so many builders are from Eastern Europe: They work hard and do a good job. The majority of illegal  immigrants also support them self. They are here illegally, but it doesn't mean they don't work. Illegal immigrants, once found, are not allowed to work and experience real poverty. Most are economic migrants and have but right to live here, but there is nothing wrong with them wanting to and this does not make them evil or criminals. Some immigrants are criminal, but some some goverment minister have been criminals and the majority are just looking for a better life.

Like steva (and possibly you), I've done some traveling and our immigration checks are not noticeably less than any country I've been to. Checks on the way out are cursory, but that's not really relevant to your points on immigration is it? Certainly,

Steva is right. The BNP keeps toning down it's racial polices to make them more acceptable to the average voter. This has worked to a degree, but considering it's low base any growth would look impressive.

[PS]

John - again please read my posts. I am NOT against legal immigrants - strangely and conversely, I am one myself working currently in West Africa. That is not the point. The point is that we have next to no controls on immigrants entering our shores. Where are the fingerprinting machines at our points of entry [usally combined with photo scan macchines] or iris controls ? Why are there so many illegals hear and more to the point, what are out govts doing it about it ? Believe me, our boder controls are third world when it comes letting illegals in.

Let me ask you a few simple questions - (1) do you agree or not that the UK is out of control when it comes to illegal immigration (2) do you agree or not that they invariably turn to less than dubious means of earnings [bearing in the restrictions placed on employing illegals in this counrty] in a lot of cases ? (3) do you agree or not that the traditional political parties have been ineffectual in placing controls on illegals ? (4) do you agree or not that by simply doing nothing this situation can only get worse and that the current crop of 3 [Nu Lab, Tory and Lib Dem] will have failed us. And finally (5) do you agree or not that as they have been seen to be ineffective, the traditional political parties are leaving themselves exposed to alternative parties such as BNP ?

[John_fraser]

1 - No.
2 - No.
3 - No.
4 - No.
5 - In part yes, but only because you are asking a leading question.

I have read your posts and you seem to be of the view that immigrants equate to criminal.

Dave, is it within the terms of the forum agreement to say if PS' IP address is located in West Africa?

[PS]

John Fraser - my God you really are out of touch with reality if you believe illegal immigration is NOT out of control - even the govt themselves admit to not being able to know the real numbers. And people like you are also part of the problem - by not acknowledging the obvoius'

Dave - yes please inform JF my IP address is in West Africa - although it is a UK based e mail in WG which I access through my PC here in West Africa. I am sure that you techis will know that anyway.

[Editor]

Dave, is it within the terms of the forum agreement to say if PS' IP address is located in West Africa?

John, it's not covered, although I think we are in danger of encroaching on privacy here. The IP addresses are only of interested to the administrators of this site when there is a case of abuse and when we need to ban a member, which we have only had to do on one occasion in 10 years. If people want to discuss IP addresses, it's probably best to do so via the personal message system.

By the way, does anyone else feel this discussion has run its course?

David 

[Mary_Morgan]

I, for one, think it has run the course in relation to the Welham Green by-election, which, in reality, is not going to make an iota of difference at the next general election. 

I think there are other forums for political debate.

Enhanced my view of why I am an expat, and doubt that I will ever live in my house in WG again.
 

[jet]

So the majority of illegal immigrants support themselves, how? By being cheap labour for dodgy builders? working uninsured and not paying tax to contribute to the welfare system. This means they are criminals, if anyone else does it they are taken to court and fined.
I am disgusted at the way this government allows people to come here and be taken advantage of, it is degenerate and makes us look like cowboys.
Go to DIY stores in your own old borough John F and look at the 100s of poor devils waiting outside for a days work. All at the expense of legitimate companies.
Everyone moans about the rates going up, they go up to fund welfare to locally housed "foreigners" who jump the queue by right of point scoring! All again courtesy of the EU.
I objected to a body search at Stanstead because it was carried out by a person of  Arabic origin who could not manage to speak basic English . This at a time when the government admited clearing 11K+ illegal immigrants for security work. It beggars belief that security admitted they were folowing orders and were concentrating on finding drugs being smuggled out of the country!
I suppose this will be considered a rant, really its a wake up call.
Still its easy to blame it all on the BNP or NF, really they are just scapegoats for the political establishment who have their snouts in the trough courtesy of their European masters and care not one jot for our once enviable country.

[John_fraser]

When you ask leading questions it might be a good idea to know where they are leading. This goverment has very little idea of anything really, but seen as illegal immigrents try to avoid detection it is hardly surprising that the goverement can do little more than make a guess. This does not mean it is out of control. It is a problem, but just one more problem to be lumped with unemployment, crime, pollution etc and it certainly not the biggest problem around. Sadly, the BNP know that sort of message would not sow the divisions they hope to thrive on.