Brookmans Park Newsletter Community Discussion Forum

General Discussion Boards => Environment => Topic started by: epiphany on October 31, 2016, 08:28:03 pm

Title: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on October 31, 2016, 08:28:03 pm
Welwyn Hatfield Council will be launching a consultation tomorrow asking whether residents would be prepared to pay for garden waste collections (brown bins) and if so, how much.


http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/proposal_to_charge_for_garden_waste_collections_in_welwyn_hatfield_1_4756014


I always thought that WHBC actually recouped the costs of collection by selling the compost?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Angel on October 31, 2016, 08:32:09 pm
I thought we did pay in our Council Tax.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on October 31, 2016, 08:36:39 pm
Welwyn Hatfield Council will be launching a consultation tomorrow asking whether residents would be prepared to pay for garden waste collections (brown bins) and if so, how much.

Thanks Epiphany, I wonder what impact this would have on fly-tipping? I saw a load of garden waste dumped off West End Lane today. I can't see this helping matters. BTW, here is the direct link to the survey.  www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenWaste (http://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenWaste)
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on October 31, 2016, 08:41:32 pm
The survey seems to indicate that carrying on as we are isn't an option. Got to Q5 and had to give up because of the lack of options. It seems the choice is no collections or pay for it.   :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on October 31, 2016, 08:48:51 pm
Just discovered you can click 'next' to continue without having to choose between 'Discontinue service' and "Pay subscription". Q8 made me smile. I filled in the form with a suggestion. (Not true, of course).  ;)
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: mannyd on November 01, 2016, 07:44:42 am
This already happens in other counties. My parents (in Lincolnshire) have been paying for at least a year - think it's about £25 a year. They also allow you to pay for a 2nd bin, which is appx £15 per year
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Ferdie on November 01, 2016, 08:47:46 am
Yet again, our council gives us no option. In an effort to provide a so called survey, it basically tells us they will be charging us. End of. What is the point of surveying us when the conclusion is already decided? Just a way to waste more money and appear to 'consult'. This is another way of taxing people. It has already been introduced elsewhere in Hertfordshire and other counties too, so the result is a forgone conclusion. So alternatives are pay up or shut up. If you can't afford to pay, solution is compost it, burn it, (add to pollution & anti social behaviour), take it yourself to the tip or disguise it in your landfill waste - (that's an own goal for the council and will increase its costs). The Cole Green Recycling Centre has already reduced its opening hours, so the fifth option of dumping it becomes attractive to those that don't care. And we wonder why fly tipping is increasing. At least with building rubble, house clearance rubbish etc. there is a chance of tracing its source, but good luck council trying to trace the source of food waste, grass and hedge clippings! Happy days for rats ahead!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 01, 2016, 08:51:47 am
Yet again, our council gives us no option. In an effort to provide a so called survey, it basically tells us they will be charging us. End of. What is the point of surveying us when the conclusion is already decided? Just a way to waste more money and appear to 'consult'. This is another way of taxing people.

I totally agree with Ferdie. This is not a consultation, it's an ultimatum. I see three main issues with this.

The first is the wording of the survey. Question five reads: "The Council is currently considering whether to stop collecting garden waste, or introduce a subscription on a paid for basis. Which option would you favour?" The two options are 'Discontinue service' or 'Pay subscription'. There are no other options available, so, when the survey is over and the data analysed they will have a number for those who ticked 'Discontinue service' and a number for those who ticked 'Pay subscription'. They won't have a number for those who might think this is a mistake. That could be spun into a mandate for change based on public demand - which, of course, it won't be - which brings me on to the second issue.

I am concerned that this will discourage recycling. People will find ways round it. And driving to the tip isn't a carbon-neutral alternative (I can see a day when there will be an entrance fee to get into the local dump once they see the data piling up for that option - question 8 later in the survey). Burying food/garden waste in a black bin bag and shoving it in the black bin will be hard to stop - unless they open every black bin during the round. That would result in recyclable material going to landfill. And then there is the local fly-tipping plague which, I fear, will get worse if this is enforced.

I am happy to pay an annual charge; in fact we could do with a second recycling bin because we always manage to fill our brown bin - I'd pay for that, too. But that's not the point. The council, in their introduction to the survey (grab from the council website (http://www.welhat.gov.uk/gardensurvey) below) has failed to explain the financial reasons why this decision has been taken and why it was able to cover the cost before but can't now.

The third issue is whether some local residents will be able to afford to pay the extra - even if we want the service. Will the council introduce some form of means-testing? And if not, how can they be sure that any system they introduce is fair? It just doesn't feel as if it's been thought through properly.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Ferdie on November 01, 2016, 08:58:46 am
In Torbay Devon, neighbours club together to pay for a bin between neighbours. A lovely idea if one has a small garden and one gets on with the neighbours. Not sure what happens when one neighbour starts using more bin space than others... a recipe for a falling out! In BP & surrounding areas with large gardens I think it is assumed that the residents are all wealthy and can afford to pay more. Not sure why the council is not generating income from recycling garden waste. I presume it is low grade due to residents incorrectly recycling and much of it is rejected and goes to landfill instead? Once again a selfish minority of people that don't care, cost the rest of us a fortune!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 01, 2016, 09:41:01 am
As well as responding on individual sites please consider responding to the draft Infrastructure Development Plan (IDP).  This is frightening in its inadquacy - over £240million has been estimated to supply the infrastructure needed to support the 12,100 additional dwellings in the area.  Sources for this money are not clear and are based on trust!!!  Without a viable infrastructure plan the Local Plan itself is not viable.

Aquila made a point in the thread about 'Housing and development in North Mymms (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php/topic,92.msg40445.html#msg40445)', which could be related to this. Perhaps the provision in the Local Plan for services to support the proposed new homes isn't adequate? Below is the relevant section (the recycling part) of the Draft Infrastructure Delivery Plan August 2016.

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on November 01, 2016, 09:58:09 am
I think it probably has more to do with this -  http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_must_plug_2million_shortfall_1_4682303
 
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on November 01, 2016, 10:11:24 am
More here - http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/anger_at_welwyn_hatfield_council_s_proposal_to_charge_for_garden_waste_collection_1_4757679 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/anger_at_welwyn_hatfield_council_s_proposal_to_charge_for_garden_waste_collection_1_4757679)


Good points from Nick36 commenting on WHT site -


"The title of the consultation and the whole of this article miss the point that it is NOT a "fortnightly garden waste collection" it is a "fortnightly FOOD WASTE and garden waste collection". So if the proposals go ahead, what will happen to the food waste of the people opting out? In with the general rubbish, or will the Council start a new food waste collection service? Is that going to mean the Council has to spend money distributing yet another new set of bins, and what will happen to the old 'brown' bins of people opting out of the new garden waste service - will the bins become waste themselves? The alternative of individuals taking their garden waste to dumps (if you can find one still open) will mean more vehicle miles, not very environmentally friendly! Many of the councils adopting a charge are predominantly rural, where the majority either do, or could, use home composting instead. WH is predominantly urban, with places like Hatfield having a population where home composting is simply inappropriate."
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Susan on November 01, 2016, 11:18:00 am
Totally agree with what everyone has said. In addition, I'm not clear on the cost implication between the two options. Assuming the subscription pays fully for the service, the discontinue option is really a subset of pay subscription option.

So the survey, in effect, leads to only one answer. ie Option 2, Pay Subscription, and if you vote for Option 1, you still get that choice with Option 2.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on November 01, 2016, 12:46:52 pm
Latest from WHT - http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/where_is_the_continue_as_is_option_welwyn_hatfield_residents_criticise_bin_consultation_1_4757906
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 01, 2016, 01:34:00 pm
Latest from WHT - http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/where_is_the_continue_as_is_option_welwyn_hatfield_residents_criticise_bin_consultation_1_4757906

Glad to see others are bothered by the wording of the survey and the lack of options. I tweeted about that this morning.

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on November 02, 2016, 09:27:58 am
Nick36 on the WHT site has made a very valid point about the brown bins being for food waste as well as for garden waste.
It is not clear if WelHat Borough Council intends to introduce a new small food waste bin at the same time as charging for collection of brown bins for garden waste. This has been done by other councils.
If not, to charge for collection of brown bins would be an extremely backward step in environmental terms, because residents who chose not to pay for brown bin collection would have to revert to putting food waste in their black bin. Food waste going in black bins wastes this useful material, and leads to an increase in the amount of "residual waste" which needs to be landfilled or incinerated. It also leads to overflowing black bins, with the accompanying problems of waste blowing into the streets, smell, and rats.
Herts county council's own Matt King, Head of waste management and environmental resource planning, in a report to HCC Waste Partnership to be presented this week,says:
 "7.3 In order to charge for green waste collection, district and borough councils cannot include food waste in the receptacle; therefore, if they do not wish to invest in the necessary capital and ongoing revenue required for separate food waste collections, this material is likely to be directed back into the residual waste containers. This is a backwards step in environmental terms and the wrong message for residents who have been encouraged over many years as to the importance of reducing waste and diverting material from the residual containers."

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 02, 2016, 09:37:13 am
Food waste going in black bins wastes this useful material, and leads to an increase in the amount of "residual waste" which needs to be landfilled or incinerated.

Well at least Veolia should have enough stuff to burn in order to justify the £1bn HCC deal for an incinerator at Hoddesdon (http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/veolia-signs-1bn-contract-to-build-hoddesdon-incinerator/story-29711462-detail/story.html) then. I am not suggesting that might have influenced the decision to make recycling harder.  ::)
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 02, 2016, 10:25:29 am

A suggestion that is certainly food for thought.


However, there is another much simpler alternative to that proposed by the council - increase council tax (IF the cost of providing the service has actually risen).


But then some people wouldn't be able to claim that Council tax hasn't risen for 'x' years.


Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 02, 2016, 10:45:03 am
The survey seems to indicate that carrying on as we are isn't an option. Got to Q5 and had to give up because of the lack of options. It seems the choice is no collections or pay for it.   :icon_scratch:


Just completed survey - was able to leave this question unanswered and move to the next.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: pinchefalise on November 02, 2016, 04:01:03 pm
Likewise I left this blank and moved on. When it came to alternatives I said Fly tipping (but hasten to add that that is NOT an option actually). Just to make the council think!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on November 02, 2016, 05:31:30 pm
Three Rivers council will be charging £35 a year (£30 for those on benefits) for the next full year.
Three Rivers also have separate collection of food waste. So they have an environmentally good waste solution, although at a cost to members of the public who have garden waste.

I see that the WelHat Times is reporting that WHBC "is unable to say what would happen to food waste if garden waste collection became a subscription-only service"
and a council spokeswoman said ""At this early stage we are seeking views on garden waste, and, depending on the outcome of the consultation, will consider the options for food waste collections."
This is obviously not the way this issue of waste should be consulted on, as collection of food waste and collection of garden waste are connected issues,  and I suggest that someone on WHBC who does know what is planned overall should do the public the courtesy of telling us, and then we can respond to that.  Helen Bromley is the relevant councillor  on WHBC.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on November 04, 2016, 10:14:21 am
 Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council is currently consulting on whether residents would accept a charge for the collection of garden waste.

One major problem with this consultation is that residents have not been told how food waste would be collected if garden waste was charged for. Councils are not allowed to charge for collection of food waste, but they can charge for collection of garden waste. So, if collection of garden waste were to become an optional chargeable service, then food waste could no longer be put in the brown bins, as it is now.

The most environmentally-friendly way of collecting food waste is to collect it separately. Councils such as Three Rivers already do this, using small additional bins.
Separate collection of food waste is environmentally good, because separately collected food waste can be anaerobically digested (AD). In anaerobic digestion, food waste is microbiologically broken down in enclosed containers in the near absence of oxygen. The outputs produced are digestate, which can be used instead of fossil fuel-intensive fertilisers; and biogas, which can be used to generate vehicle fuel, heat, electricity, combined heat and power, or refined and directly injected into the gas grid.
The combination of both outputs means that anaerobic digestion is environmentally preferable to composting.

Collecting food waste together with garden waste, as WHBC does now, is the next best option; but garden waste can be woody and therefore unsuitable for AD, but possibly suitable for either traditional composting or in-vessel composting.

The worst system environmentally is to put food waste into the black bin, together with the “residual waste”. The food waste then is totally wasted, as it has to be land-filled or incinerated. If WHBC starts to charge for collection of garden waste, without separate collection of food waste, residents would have to put their food waste in the black bin.

Food waste in the black bins also causes problems because the black bins become full to over-flowing, with rubbish blowing on to our streets and verges, and with problems of smell and rats. Hatfield in particular already has a problem with over-flowing black bins.

At the moment, all residents should be putting food in the brown bins and recyclable material in the blue-lidded bins. There is very little waste that really needs to go in the black bins.

Perhaps in future our council will move to separately-collected food waste. If this is what is being considered, then please will the council inform the public now. In this case, some residents might accept a small charge for optional collection of garden waste. Three Rivers borough currently collects food waste separately, and charges £35 a year (£30 for those on benefits) for optional collection of garden waste. One disadvantage of charging for garden waste collection is that it could well lead to even more fly-tipping in the borough.

What must not happen is that WHBC charges residents for garden waste, forces residents to put food waste in the black bins, and uses the money collected for general WHBC expenditure.


WHBC needs to cease this consultation and ask the question properly, informing residents of what is actually on the table, not with partial information as currently.

 
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 04, 2016, 10:19:11 am
WHBC needs to cease this consultation and ask the question properly, informing residents of what is actually on the table, not with partial information as currently.

Excellent, informative and clear post. Thanks for that Cathy. In fact it's so good I have tweeted it and copied in Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council.

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 04, 2016, 10:40:49 am

Hmmm...trying out a hunch, I just filled in the survey AGAIN using the same library computer - without any error messages.


That suggests that the survey is wide open to abuse. Respondents - for all the Council knows - could be sitting in Veolia offices in France ie. not WH residents.


So any data from this - or any other survey using this methodology - is unreliable.


What a farce.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 04, 2016, 10:50:28 am
So any data from this - or any other survey using this methodology - is unreliable.

Yes, I noticed there was no request for any personal information when filling it out. Not sure what value it has. BTW, I like Cathy's summary, and, if that was being proposed I would happily pay an annual fee.

Perhaps in future our council will move to separately-collected food waste. If this is what is being considered, then please will the council inform the public now. In this case, some residents might accept a small charge for optional collection of garden waste. Three Rivers borough currently collects food waste separately, and charges £35 a year (£30 for those on benefits) for optional collection of garden waste. One disadvantage of charging for garden waste collection is that it could well lead to even more fly-tipping in the borough.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 08, 2016, 09:43:41 am
Good for OWL (the online watch link) set up by Herts police. They've come up with an alternative survey that is far better than the one set up by Welwyn Hatfield Council. I've just completed it. Here is the OWL message and click here to go directly to the survey (https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenAlt).

Quote
WHBC Garden Waste Consultation

Dear Watch Member,

Foe the 10 years that OWL has been in operation, it has been mainly used to report issues around crime. OWL is in fact a non-political tool for the community to use, covering other community issues. For example, if a waste bin collection fails to happen, or if a major pothole has been noticed, the Local Coordinator has the ability to let their neighbours users know that it has been reported by an OWL message.

Following the recent survey put out by Welwyn & Hatfield Borough Council on the garden waste collection (Brown bin) issue, many residents have expressed disatisfaction to local and social media at the survey only providing two options of response; either to charge or cease the service.

Attached is an alternative survey that allows the person completing it to have the third option of 'Continue existing service unchanged' and also adds a freeform comments box. This alternative survey, once completed, will go straight to the Council so that they may know the wishes of local people more clearly.

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenAlt (https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenAlt)
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 10, 2016, 07:47:22 am
I see the OWL alternative survey  (https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenAlt) about Welwyn Hatfield's recycling waste plans is now closed.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on November 11, 2016, 08:19:27 am
 WELWYN HATFIELD BOROUGH COUNCIL
IS CONSULTING NOW UNTIL NOV 28TH
ABOUT THE COLLECTION OF GARDEN WASTE

Please respond to this consultation.
The official survey form allows only two options: no garden waste collection or pay for garden waste collection. There is no space to say “continue as now”, or to comment.
So, the best way to respond is to
email contact-whc@welhat.gov.uk , indicating that you are responding to the consultation on garden waste.
Also, you can copy to:
helen.bromley@welhat.gov.uk (Helen.bromley@welhat.gov.uk) (Councillor with responsibility for environment)
john.dean   (Leader of Council)
WHBC Cabinet members: duncan.bell, tony.kingsbury, mandy.perkins, bernard.sarson, roger.trigg.
Also please copy in the local WHBC councillors for your own area.

Below are some reasons to oppose non-collection, or charging for collection, of brown bins. You might use some of these points in your response to the consultation.

WHY NOT COLLECTING, OR CHARGING FOR COLLECTION, OF BROWN BINS IS A BAD PLAN
1. At the moment, your brown bin is for garden waste and food waste.

2. Districts that introduce a separate (sometimes charged) collection of garden waste usually do this at the same time as bringing in a separate weekly food waste collection
(e.g. Three Rivers – optional garden waste collection charged at £35 p.a. £30 if on benefits, and separate weekly collection of food waste in a small bin. St Albans – separate garden and food waste collected free).
WHBC is considering bringing in optional charged garden waste collection and no separate food collection, or no brown bin collection at all.
With no brown bin collection or with optional paid brown bin collection, food waste would have to go in the black residual waste bin.
This is because councils are not allowed by law to charge for collection of food waste.

3. Food waste in black bins is a very bad idea because:
 all residual/black bin waste is totally wasted, as it has to be land-filled or incinerated.

4. Food waste collected together with garden waste (as now) is quite a good system because:
the waste can be treated (by in-vessel composting) to produce compost.

5. Food waste collected separately is an even better system because:
 Separate food waste can be treated by anaerobic digestion, which produces a digestate that can be used for very good compost, and can produce biogas that can be used for heat and for power.
However, WHBC would need new or adapted vehicles and new smaller bins to bring in this system. The waste vehicles used now will need replacing in 2020.

6. Recycled food and garden waste is sold, not wasted.
Herts County Council is responsible for the disposal of waste collected by Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council. Herts County Council receives any payments for the waste. However, Herts County Council then gives financial rewards back to WHBC depending on how much recycling/composting waste WHBC collects.

7. Garden Waste should be collected from all residents, not just those who volunteer to pay, because:
 Welwyn Hatfield already has a huge and costly fly-tipping problem. Unfortunately some residents, and non-resident landlords, already tip rubbish in our streets and on our greens and nature walks. Such people are likely also to dump garden waste if WHBC does not collect it.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on November 11, 2016, 08:58:09 am
This full page advert appears inside the front cover of the HCC magazine 'Horizons' currently being delivered to all households and demonstrates a distinct lack of joined up thinking between HCC & WHBC.



Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on November 12, 2016, 08:54:25 am
Similar consultation taking place in Hertsmere http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/smaller_bins_and_parking_fees_hike_on_the_cards_for_potters_bar_1_4772926
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on November 15, 2016, 08:16:01 am
Please be aware that the idea, that Welwyn Hatfield is out of line with other councils because it does not charge for garden waste is untrue.
In Hertfordshire there is not a single  district that charges for garden waste collection without also collecting food waste separately.
There are 10 districts in Hertfordshire.
4 have moved to separate collection of  garden waste and food, using extra little bins for a weekly food collection.
2 of the 4 are charging for garden waste (Three Rivers and Broxbourne)
2 of the 4 collect both garden waste and food free (St Albans and Dacorum)
The other 6 still collect garden waste and food waste together. (Welwyn Hatfield, East Herts, North Herts, Stevenage, Watford and Hertsmere).
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 15, 2016, 08:32:16 am
I was chatting to a friend in the pub over the weekend, and he suggested that one consequence of this could be that more people turn to garden bonfires as a way of disposing of previously recyclable waste. That would be a pity, and not great for the environment.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 16, 2016, 04:03:46 pm
I suspect many will choose the easier option and there'll just be more fly-tipping.


--------------------------------------




The consultation also includes printed forms with second class prepaid envelopes available at libraries.


I could have picked up and filled in ten of them - if I had been so minded (but didn't give in to the temptation and so refrained from wasting any more taxpayers' money. Whether everyone else did the same I couldn't say).

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on November 19, 2016, 12:37:31 pm
From WHT - http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_garden_waste_charge_plan_is_illegal_1_4783385
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on November 22, 2016, 10:21:54 am
 Welwyn Hatfield Council are now admitting that if they introduce paid garden waste collection, residents will have to put food waste in their black bin. The council are now sending out (expensive) cards to tell residents this.
The WHBC survey closes on Monday Nov 28th. The survey does not give any opportunity to say "continue as now" or to comment on the problem of food waste, or other problems of paid garden waste collection.
The alternative survey , with more options and a comment box, has now re-opened,  so if you haven't answered it yet, please do so.
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenAlt (https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/WHGardenAlt.)
Also , please send comments to contact-whc@welhat.gov.uk
and direct to john.dean@welhat.gov.uk (john.dean@welhat.gov) and helen.bromley@welhat.gov.uk (helen.bromley@welhat.gov)
It was clear from last night's meeting of WHBC Council that the problem of food waste had been ignored when WHBC first sent out their survey.
Please let them know that you do not want to put food waste in your black residual waste bin.
1. This food waste will go to landfill or to incineration, whereas it could be treated to make compost (in-vessel composting) , or to make better compost and power (anaerobic digestion).
2. Food waste in landfill causes dangerous methane
3. Food waste going to landfill or incineration is expensive financially and environmentally damaging.
3. WHBC and "Waste Aware" and the Herts Waste Partnership have been urging residents for years to put food waste in brown bins,  not in black bins. If they charge for garden waste collection, they will be urging you to do something that they know is environmentally and financially bad.
4. Herts County Council disposes of the waste, and HCC gives financial rewards to boroughs if the boroughs have less residual waste and more recycling. So WHBC would not gain these rewards if they create more residual waste in black bins.
5. In any case, the costs of HCC for disposal , and of WHBC for collection of waste, are all paid for by the council-tax payer.
6. Black bins in Welwyn Hatfield are already over-flowing. Already too many people put food waste in the black bins. We need no food waste to go in them. Ideally we need separate weekly collection of food waste, but collection of food and garden waste together is the next best option.
7. Pretty well everyone has some food waste, even if they try hard not to be wasteful. Food waste that can be recycled includes tea-bags, egg-shells, and vegetable and fruit peelings.
8. The only two districts in Herts that are charging or are about to charge for collection of garden waste collect food separately.(Three Rivers and Broxbourne). This is quite different from what WHBC is plannning.
   
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Aloo on November 23, 2016, 07:58:43 am
This consultation maybe contrary to WHBC own policy on consultation and engagement.  The wording of the consultation makes it appear that a decision to charge has already been made.  The courts have a set of rules on whether an exercise is lawful caleld the  "Gunning Principles".   
These include whether the Council had an "open mind" or whether the decision had been pre-determined.  Argubly the cards that the council will be issuing on food waste, indicate pre-determination.
The second principle is about consultees being given sufficient information to allow intelligent consideration.  Not sure that the information we have been given so far allows any form of intelligent consideration!


someone in the council needs to look at the legality of this "consultation". 





Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on November 23, 2016, 08:51:46 am
Sorry for the slip in the email addresses of Helen Bromley and John Dean
The end of each address should be gov.uk
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Bob on November 23, 2016, 09:51:58 am
Sorry for the slip in the email addresses of Helen Bromley and John Dean
The end of each address should be gov.uk
Is that better, I've corrected them for you.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Helen on November 23, 2016, 09:29:03 pm
I emailed the Council yesterday with my concerns. Today I received a standard FAQ Sheet. Needless to say, it fails to address my concerns in any great detail.


I've attached it below.


By the way, I just tried clicking on the latest Survey Monkey link but it appears not to be working again.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 25, 2016, 01:43:16 pm

Article on the subject in the WHT:

Attempts to ditch bin charge plans rejected by Welwyn Hatfield Council
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/attempts_to_ditch_bin_charge_plans_rejected_by_welwyn_hatfield_council_1_4792239

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on November 25, 2016, 08:11:37 pm
This nice, expensive, thick colour card was delivered today from the bumbling and not very environmentally friendly Conservative led Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council.


It is an enormous shame that WHBC did not go to the same lengths to publicise their recent (or any of the previous) Local Plan Consultation.


My answers to the questions below:


1) Although not all residents use the garden waste service, many residents do not have children at school, use the library or even benefit from street lighting.
     It would be an administrative nightmare to personalize each individual Council Tax bill, it would also be open to abuse so the fairest way is to have one bill that encompasses ALL services.


2) John Dean, the leader of the Council states that he would not support an annual fee greater than £35 pa. This does beg the question: If it has already been decided, why are we having a consultation?


3) Food waste to be put in black (landfill) refuse bin. This absolutely flies in the face of all that we have been encouraged to do, and will undermine in one fell swoop, years of education and behaviour pattern changes to the detriment of the environment and increased land fill tax bills for the council.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on November 26, 2016, 10:16:41 am
3) Food waste to be put in black (landfill) refuse bin. This absolutely flies in the face of all that we have been encouraged to do, and will undermine in one fell swoop, years of education and behaviour pattern changes to the detriment of the environment and increased land fill tax bills for the council.

Do you think they are making this up as they go along? Seems like the ramblings of the confused rather than a thought through strategy.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Nimbus on November 26, 2016, 05:28:56 pm
Do you think they are making this up as they go along? Seems like the ramblings of the confused rather than a thought through strategy.
Definitely! It is clear that they haven't costed a separate food waste collection, which they would have to subtract from the 'savings' from the changes to garden waste collection, in order to establish the overall 'benefit'.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Helen on November 26, 2016, 05:49:06 pm
I'm wondering too if WHBC has thought about how they would monitor whether the brown bins put out for collection belong to the households who have decided to pay for the service. I can't believe they'd want the cost of a timely exercise by the bin collection team checking each bin is 'paid up' before they empty it each time. Therefore, they'd either have to simply collect every brown bin put out or issue yet another new different coloured bin to those residents opting to pay...
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Ex Libris on November 26, 2016, 07:05:33 pm
Good point Helen.  Let's hope, what ever WHBC decides to do, they don't have to spend £3.5m doing it - http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-garden-tax-boss-admits-8459136 (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-garden-tax-boss-admits-8459136)

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: memsal9 on November 28, 2016, 11:00:22 am
I was chatting to a friend in the pub over the weekend, and he suggested that one consequence of this could be that more people turn to garden bonfires as a way of disposing of previously recyclable waste. That would be a pity, and not great for the environment.

Me thinks you may be right. Last week the neighbor was burning laurel leaves. Went on for the whole day, you couldn't leave windows open or go out into the garden.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 28, 2016, 02:36:27 pm

From the WHT


Furious residents rally against bin charge plans outside Welwyn Hatfield Council’s offices
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/furious_residents_rally_against_bin_charge_plans_outside_welwyn_hatfield_council_s_offices_1_4794795

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 28, 2016, 02:41:27 pm
Anyone planning on burning their waste may be well advised to read WHBC's guidance on the issue:



Bonfires and smoke
"Bonfires are not an acceptable method of disposing of domestic garden rubbish or commercial trade waste."
http://www.welhat.gov.uk/neighbourhood/bonfires?sendtoid=252&formid=69919


[Includes a PDF on domestic bonfires, which states: "Bonfires can cause real annoyance and nuisance to neighbours and we strongly discourage them. "]
http://www.welhat.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=1481&p=0
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Red-Point on November 29, 2016, 01:49:14 am
The builders working on the corner of Mymms Drive / Calder Ave seem to be enjoying a daily bonfire.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: memsal9 on November 29, 2016, 09:13:01 am
Anyone planning on burning their waste may be well advised to read WHBC's guidance on the issue:



Bonfires and smoke
"Bonfires are not an acceptable method of disposing of domestic garden rubbish or commercial trade waste."
http://www.welhat.gov.uk/neighbourhood/bonfires?sendtoid=252&formid=69919


[Includes a PDF on domestic bonfires, which states: "Bonfires can cause real annoyance and nuisance to neighbours and we strongly discourage them. "]
http://www.welhat.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=1481&p=0

Then I guess the Council will have to find extra money to fund the army of inspectors to respond to the growing numbers of complaints. Every action leads to a reaction.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on November 30, 2016, 11:17:24 am

Yes, it seemed an impractical idea from the off.


That said, it is a democratically elected - and accountable - council (that the majority of voters in BP helped elect) going about its lawful business.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on December 02, 2016, 02:35:12 pm
According to this week's WHT (p13) the leaflet 'From the Leader' that John Dean has had sent out about the  Garden Waste Collection Charge cost £8,000 to distribute and £1,048 to produce ie. a total of £9,048 (or the first year's income from the proposed charge from 258 households, assuming a rate of £35).
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on December 16, 2016, 07:11:14 pm
 
PLEASE HELP STOP WELWYN HATFIELD COUNCIL
CHARGING FOR COLLECTION OF BROWN WASTE BINS
& FORCING RESIDENTS TO PUT FOOD WASTE IN BLACK BINS

You can help persuade Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council not to reverse the gains that have been made in recent years in our borough in the composting of food waste and of garden waste.

If charges are made for collection of brown bins, the Council is not legally allowed to tell residents to put food waste in those bins. The council will have to totally reverse what they have rightly been encouraging residents to do, and will have to tell us to put food waste in the black bins, the contents of which are sent to landfill or incineration. This will apply to all residents, not just those who decide they don’t want to pay for brown bin collection.

Charging for brown bins is also extremely likely to lead to some people wasting their useful garden waste, and causing pollution and mess, by putting it in their black bins, or burning it on bonfires, or fly-tipping it.

1. PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION:
https://www.change.org/p/welwyn-hatfield-borough-council-no-to-the-welwyn-hatfield-bin-tax (https://www.change.org/p/welwyn-hatfield-borough-council-no-to-the-welwyn-hatfield-bin-tax)

This petition has been organised by WHBC councillor Max Holloway.

2. PLEASE HELP COLLECT SIGNATURES
1. Send the petition on to your friends and neighbours
2. Come to help collect signatures:
a. Hatfield.                  Sat Jan 7. 10.30 - 4.30 White Lion Square
b. Welwyn Garden City. Sat Jan 7. 10.30 – 4.30 Howard Centre

3. PLEASE COME TO
THE SPECIAL MEETING OF WELWYN HATFIELD COUNCIL 
MONDAY JAN 9. 7.30. Campus East Council Chamber.
Please come early, bringing your own banners and placards.
WHBC leaders have called this meeting “to consider the recommendations”.

 
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on December 22, 2016, 11:59:52 am
The report for the WHBC meetings on Monday 09 January of the Special Cabinet meeting at 6.30pm closely followed by the Special Council meeting at 7.30pm has now been uploaded to the WHBC website (see below).


Recommendations are:




http://democracy.welhat.gov.uk/documents/g496/Public%20reports%20pack%2009th-Jan-2017%2018.30%20Cabinet.pdf?T=10
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Beppy on December 22, 2016, 12:35:22 pm
Just got around to reading Autumn 2016 edition of Herts CC Horizon mag. On the inside of the front cover is a full page by WasteAware Hertfordshire Partnership extolling the virtues of recycling food waste: "If every household in Hertfordshire recycled just ONE tea bag per week we could divert over 350 tonnes from disposal each year, saving at least £20,000 of council taxpayers money!"  Food for thought - apologies for the pun.
Perhaps Welwyn Hatfield Council don't receive the Horizons magazine!!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on December 22, 2016, 12:44:16 pm
The above report does not contain the following:





Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 06, 2017, 01:07:25 pm

Welwyn Hatfield brown bin collection fee public questions stifled
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_brown_bin_collection_fee_public_questions_stifled_1_4839414 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_brown_bin_collection_fee_public_questions_stifled_1_4839414)




It's staggering how much time and effort must be being taken up across the country over dealing with waste (how to get rid of it, flytipping, environmental impact...). Incinerators have been proposed - and usually fought against, with differing levels of success.


The plastic bag tax has made a massive impact on the number used, and there are other private initiatives (like the Too Good to Go app) that can drastically reduce the amounts that would otherwise end up in bins. It's a pity the Government isn't taking a far more proactive stance on the subject.


This app lets you buy unsold food that restaurants would have wasted
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/08/08/too-good-to-go-app-lets-you-buy-unsold-food-that-restaurants-wou/
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 09, 2017, 04:37:58 pm
Brown bins D-Day for Welwyn Hatfield Council
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/brown_bins_d_day_for_welwyn_hatfield_council_1_4841168 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/brown_bins_d_day_for_welwyn_hatfield_council_1_4841168)

Given John Dean's track record on dealing with dissenters (and in fairness to those that have previously - the apparent lack of appreciation by voters) it seems to be pretty much a foregone conclusion with the only thing to be seen is whether councillors stick to their party lines.

 
Correction - Apologies, the meetings are going  ahead in the new chamber
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 09, 2017, 06:52:53 pm
Passed by the first meeting.
Some 27 seats for the public in the new chamber, with an overflow  / reception with a similar capacity. Televised but not streamed.
 
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 09, 2017, 08:34:03 pm
Passed 28 for, 18 against.
If opposition comments accurate, then a Council tax rise is also in the pipeline.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 10, 2017, 10:41:18 am

As expected, voting was split on party lines with all Conservative councillors voting in favour (Cllr Duncan Bell and Cllr Steven Markiewicz among those speaking in favour).


Brown bins: Welwyn Hatfield Council vote to introduce charges
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/brown_bins_welwyn_hatfield_council_vote_to_introduce_charges_1_4842640


Concerns were expressed by opposition councillors that this might be the thin end of the wedge and that a £35 charge would soon be increased.




The devil of the scheme will be in the detail:


- how will they deal with 'pirate' tipping (people dumping their garden waste in others' bins)?


- how can they stop people from putting the waste in black bags in their black bins? And whether they can legally stop them even if they wanted to.


- how much extra work / expenditure will be generated by a likely increase in fly-tipping / illegal bonfires?


- how will they deal with payment defaulters?


Comments suggested that there is a forthcoming debate on increasing Council tax, if so, why not simply add it to the expected increase in Council tax - especially given it's budgeted to cost £100k to set up the administration for the new scheme?


At least one person was filming the meeting so there may be a copy of it on social media. If so, I recommend watching it.

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 18, 2017, 02:21:45 pm

Perhaps buoyed by the boundary changes (and the withdrawal of his forum), Grant has publicly declared his support for the brown bin charge.


Grant Shapps praises council after brown bins charge passed - WHT 18/01/2017 p5
"He stressed the importance of financial prudence amidst government funding cuts, and praised the local authority for careful financial management that enabled eight years of freezing council tax."


He seems to have conveniently overlooked the cuts to services - especially in Hatfield, which seems to bear the brunt of things - that have taken place.


It's the old chestnut - reduce cost prices rather than raise selling prices (like manufacturers reduce the size of their confectionery rather than increase the price).
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Grant Shapps MP on January 18, 2017, 08:06:26 pm
In fairness the headline doesn't quite reflect my actual feedback which was about the financial management of the council primarily, but people can judge for themselves here by reading the text, rather than the headline:
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_mp_grant_shapps_praises_council_after_brown_bins_charge_introduced_1_4854569

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 19, 2017, 12:46:38 pm

Hi Grant,


Unfortunately WHT hadn't published the article online when I made the post (I checked) otherwise I would have included the link.


That said, if you feel you've been misquoted you could set the record straight here.


I fail to see how a separate brown bin charge - as opposed to an increase in council tax - represents good value for money for residents.


Already we've had over £9k spent on a single leaflet, with an initial £100k set aside to set up the scheme. While potentially increased costs and workload due to flytipping, dealing with payment defaulters, complaints about bonfires.... have been highlighted in Reply#60 above.


And there's also potentially increased use of Council facilities (Cole Green Lane), which will also have a financial impact. Plus, there's the environmental and health damage - which will add to the NHS's woes.


I also profoundly disagree with your assessment of the effectiveness of WHC's "careful financial management".


As already highlighted, there have been cuts to everything from bus services, library services, street-lighting and cleaning...(while many of these are HCC services they are paid for from Council tax, as is the Police Commissioner).


Then there's the sorry saga of Hatfield town centre and Hilltop / Highview redevelopments - years of delay and excuses (and the ineffective Portas Project) - and potentially millions lost from unrealised rents, business rates and council tax.


You mentioned Slough Estates in the article (while not excusing the Labour leader of the time, the situation was a direct result of a previous Conservative Government's reforms that lumped the widely differing Welwyn, Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City under a single local planning authority). And it was used for years as a convenient and false excuse as to why there was allegedly no money to proceed with Hatfield redevelopments.


Between 2003-09 WHBC Capital Commitments (basically large spending projects mentioned in their accounts) showed over £7.1m spent on improvements in WGC with a paltry £0.28m spent on Hatfield. Add over £1 million given in various forms to Gosling Sports Park and that becomes over £8.1m vs. £0.28m (this does not include £20k spent on placing an old boat on the roundabout by Stanborough Lakes).


Thousands were spent on public consultations and plans for the Hilltop redevelopment and years later nothing has been done.


But money was spent on artificial football pitches (without a proper consultation) and high ropes courses.




Hatfield revamp gets the go-ahead - 3 April 2011
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_revamp_gets_the_go_ahead_1_863045 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_revamp_gets_the_go_ahead_1_863045)


Thumbs-up for Hatfield shopping parade revamp - 01 April 2010
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/thumbs_up_for_hatfield_shopping_parade_revamp_1_210665 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/thumbs_up_for_hatfield_shopping_parade_revamp_1_210665)
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: BrookyP on January 19, 2017, 04:31:43 pm
i dont think grant was celebrating the fact that we all have to spend 35 quid but more commenting on the fact they are trying to save money-a miracle in itself if they can. I can see how this wont be popular at all, but as a user of the brown bin say 15 times a year i guess i can shred and mulch the waste. Its definitely a pain in the backside but sadly nobody wants rubbish anymore-but its got to go somewhere and someones got to pay for it. The reality will be, I think, huge usage increases on municipal services from dump runs to flytipping. But thats probably anpther council spreadsheet so they can bury the cost! Onwards BP!!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: sasquartch on January 19, 2017, 05:21:01 pm
I don't want to have to pay any more council tax and nor do I want to pay for a brown bin charge.

But the cost of it has to be borne somewhere and with 25 collections a year it works out at £1.40 per bin load so assuming you use it every time that's not a great deal.

I do agree that some will choose to not pay and dumping will increase. Also I'm not convinced it would be very easy to administer with only some residents wishing to pay.

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: larrylamb on January 19, 2017, 06:01:40 pm
If you take just all the economic migrants providing additional tax receipts for central and local government with economies of scale factored then we should be seeing the council deficits heading in the black shouldn't we?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 20, 2017, 12:38:30 pm

It appears that some are missing the point.


The usual primary purpose of taxation is to raise money for the coffers (taxation is also a useful tool in protecting embryonic / strategic industries and modifying behaviour - by increasing the price to deter actions deemed 'harmful' or undesirable, an example of that being the landfill escalator tax).


In the interests of maximising returns to the public purse, a tax should be easy and inexpensive to collect and difficult to avoid / evade.


The current bins collections - and transport and disposal of collected waste - is not free. This work is done and paid for through council tax and any grant / subsidy from county or central government (who in turn get the money to do that mainly through taxation, licensing  and fines).


Now there are perfectly understandable reasons for increasing council tax - such as, government grant cuts, increases in the minimum wage, and increased demand for services.


I'd argue that the logical and sensible course of action is for WHC to increase Council tax by £35 rather than create a separate 'tax', which will need additional resources to create, administer and enforce.


The argument is reinforced by the high probability of increased fly-tipping, bonfires, greater use of facilities, like Cole Green...generating additional work and costs. Plus, there will be some households which will opt out. All of which reduces the tax take / money available.


Common sense does not have any political affiliation or axe to grind.


Consequently, for WHC to proceed along this path suggests some other motivation - possibly a general policy shift towards pay-as-you-go council services; an intention to further reduce local government (as far as waste services go it would make more economic sense to organise and run on a much larger scale than district or even county level); an intention to create additional payment / income streams for political purposes (previous governments have claimed not to have raised / cut income tax - while increasing NI contributions, imposing VAT, increasing VAT..., and assume the electorate is too stupid to figure out the sleight of hand); to provide sufficient quantities of waste for the Hoddesdon incinerator (if the contract with Veolia is like the New Barnfield one, HCC would be liable for penalties if they didn't provide a guaranteed tonnage of waste annually - a liability that would ultimately be paid for by residents - which would have a political cost); or some other reason.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 20, 2017, 12:46:40 pm

Welwyn Hatfield Council seeks new recruit after brown bin decision
"The new position will be full time with a salary of up to nearly £25,000."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_seeks_new_recruit_after_brown_bin_decision_1_4856592
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 23, 2017, 04:17:42 pm
If you take just all the economic migrants providing additional tax receipts for central and local government with economies of scale factored then we should be seeing the council deficits heading in the black shouldn't we?

Logically, that depends on the new arrivals contributing an amount equal or greater to the amount needed to provide for them - and their families (which could include retired, infirm and going to school).


There is an interesting breakdown included in the 'Report of the Inquiry into securing the status of EEA+ nationals in the UK,' released last month:


Pg.9
"51% of EEA+ nationals in the UK are employees and 9% are self-employed. 4% are students, 7% retired and 17% aged under
16 with 3% unemployed."
http://www.britishfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/EUNationalsReport.Final_.12.12.16.pdf


It's worth noting:
Self employed is nebulous - could be anything from a highly qualified architect to a Big Issuer seller or finger artist / pickpocket; and many of the 'under 16' will be in school (at a cost of thousands per child. A recent report gave a figure of £5,500 per child per year but that may have been for high school education).


The exact numbers of EU migrants in the UK is hard to establish as different sources give different figures (and as  many are now claiming UK citizenship they may cease to be classed as EU migrants). This report puts the number at around 2.8 million. Migrationwatch gives a higher total:


"There are 3.2 million UK residents who were born in other parts of the EU, including 2.3 million workers. These residents should be allowed to remain in the UK post-Brexit, provided that there are reciprocal arrangements for the 1.2 million Britons who currently live in other parts of the EU."
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/european-union


As far as Welwyn Hatfield is concerned, thanks to the policies of the various councils, I expect the impact to be significant.


This is because years of broken promises and negative developments - proposed New Barnfield incinerator; UH's CHP; disturbance from unruly student houses...has driven many local residents to give up and move away (a resident of Briars Lane I know moved out this month - he mentioned the ever-increasing congestion - as the 'Free School' adds another year's intake - as a significant factor).


It has also put off people / families from moving into the town. However, property prices have increased as there is a significant demand for buy-to-let properties. These are often converted into Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMOs) - Hatfield has the highest number of these in the district.


Mainly occupied by students and migrant workers HMOs are often over-crowded, poorly maintained and a source of litter / flytipping (often someone doesn't take their turn to do the housekeeping - the rubbish piles up and attracts vermin, and eventually  someone will pile them into a vehicle and take them away, where they end up is anyone's guess (but I know a of an HMO near me where, according to another neighbour, they were dumping it at Stream Woods / Howe Dell Nature Reserve).


I've had the opportunity to observe HMOs for years, and there seems to be no policing of them by the Council.


An HMO in a 3-bedroom, terraced house near me, appeared to be hosting 6 adults, 2 kids (both attending local schools) and a dog. They were the source of much disturbance (I've seen the Police in attendance at least twice) and irritation. The key point being all these people but just one Council tax payment.


In fairness, not everyone in an HMO is a pain. Many behave in a civilised manner and don't blight the street.


It seems that at least some landlords (and ladies) are over-filling their properties to maximise their returns (and probably paying off the mortgage so they can use the equity to take out loans to buy even more properties).


So unless WHC gets its act together and starts actively reducing the number of HMOs and monitoring existing ones more closely, expect more unruly behaviour (flytipping and police call outs cost money) and more demands on services.




---------------------------------------------------


Report of the Inquiry into securing the status of EEA+ nationals in the UK
"The Inquiry panel included voices from Leave and Remain, different political parties and from business and trade unions and was chaired by Gisela Stuart MP, former Chair of the Vote Leave campaign. Its remit was to examine how the Government can protect the rights of the 3 million EU citizens living in the UK after Brexit and to make practical recommendations as to how to do this, starting from the premise that this is the right thing to do."
http://www.britishfuture.org/articles/eu-nationals-report/


Link to full report:
http://www.britishfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/EUNationalsReport.Final_.12.12.16.pdf


Interesting - according to Point 3, Pg.8, they have rights that UK nationals don't:


"3. EEA+ nationals living in the UK enjoy some privileges over UK and non-EEA+ nationals in relation to family migration, in that they can bring immediate family members to the UK without having to fulfil a minimum income threshold and show a basic level of English language competency. "

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: southbury on January 24, 2017, 10:37:14 am
How about re-rating our homes and charging those that have been the recipients of massive house price increases as the government underwrites the property market and keeps interest rates artificially low  - people like myself - a higher Community Charge so they take more of a tax burden. Once that was considered a logical response. Post Thatcher it is deemed left wing radicalism. Why not ask those that can afford it to contribute more ?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: sasquartch on January 24, 2017, 11:12:15 am
Because it doesn't necessarily follow that people in more expensive properties can afford to pay more
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: southbury on January 24, 2017, 11:19:11 am
Yep that may be true but is in not worth a try ? We are passing on these costs to everyone so , if by your logic those in expensive properties may not be able to afford it is it more or less likely that generically those in the poorer parts of the Borough can afford it either ? The concept of Progressive Taxation is just an anathema to too many.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: memsal9 on January 24, 2017, 11:23:07 am
more concrete landscaping less green waste problem (part of) solved!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: larrylamb on January 24, 2017, 12:08:17 pm
How about re-rating our homes and charging those that have been the recipients of massive house price increases as the government underwrites the property market and keeps interest rates artificially low  - people like myself - a higher Community Charge so they take more of a tax burden. Once that was considered a logical response. Post Thatcher it is deemed left wing radicalism. Why not ask those that can afford it to contribute more ?
Absolutely not! why no go after those who choose not to pay rather than relying constantly on  those they can be squeezed to balance the books. those of us in unadapted/private roads have to pay for the maintenance of our roads with no council tax reduction, together with fewer public services what do we actually get for our money.

I would guess the majority of those who have high value homes are higher than average earners and have subsequently paid more income tax into the public purse already.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: southbury on January 24, 2017, 12:19:55 pm
Larry you are spot on: those in higher value homes generically will have paid more in tax; all things being equal etc. It's just a philosophy on life. You are either happy with an ever more divided and economically polarized society or you are not. I am not and would happily pay more tax as a result. An extra £35 on my Community Charge is fine by me if helps to  keep the streets clean, helps to minimize Fly-Tipping ( the increase of which is the obvious outcome here) and helps therefore to maintain our local environment. We have a Tory MP , a Tory County Council and a Tory Local authority. I accept I am in the minority locally. So I assume that you are happy with this new £35 tax as long as 'we' (sic.) all have to pay it ?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Nimbus on January 24, 2017, 03:02:41 pm
A problem with this approach is that house market values are not in the control of the incumbent residents - it is those who do not live here, but desire to do so, which push the values up. These in turn may have been flushed away from the metropolis by the burdens entrained in the rising values there. We had periodic noises from the Cameron government hinting that pricing people out of particular regions was an equitable way of easing housing shortages there.


The real objection to the waste collection charge is that it clearly has not been competently costed, as the council cannot produce figures for the costs of administration, and the alternative arrangements for food waste handling, let alone the environmental costs which will certainly ensue.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: memsal9 on January 24, 2017, 05:16:27 pm
The real objection to the waste collection charge is that it clearly has not been competently costed, as the council cannot produce figures for the costs of administration, and the alternative arrangements for food waste handling, let alone the environmental costs which will certainly ensue.

I thought that the bin collections were subcontracted to Serco? If that is the case then I'm guessing Serco will bill the local council at a reduced rate re the reduced level of service in which case the savings generated are clearly visible.  Maybe the council are looking to allocate some money elsewhere? My guess its to fund the out of control final salary pension schemes of our civil servants?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 25, 2017, 11:04:33 am

I don't think a tax based on how much property values have increased is necessarily fair as this is a 'paper' increase (until the property is actually sold - and then they'll need to find somewhere else to live, which is also likely to have increased in price), so does not reflect a real improvement in a household's finances.


Although I think there is scope for increasing stamp duty especially on more expensive homes / increasing the tax rate on rental income / inheritance tax levels on higher value properties / a premium tax on overseas buyers (I saw a news package recently where an oriental buyer said he was looking at buying several smaller properties in the outskirts of London to avoid a stamp duty increase). At a local level, there could be an annual HMO licensing and a stricter enforcement of regulations - no leaving your bins out for days if not weeks; parking your vehicles on the pavement and grass verges; drinking in the supposedly alcohol free zone...


We seem to be heading for the perfect storm - increasing our population by millions, especially since EU enlargement; wages - and therefore income tax take - being driven down; automation set to wipe out a massive number of skilled and unskilled jobs; increasing pollution increasing demands on health services (plus, those created by an ageing population and improved treatments increasing survivability and life expectancy).


Incidentally, Sky has a documentary report A Plastic Tide- on tonight on Sky News (available via Freeview) at 8pm / 20:00, which graphically shows the impact of plastic pollution, and reveals that plastic microparticles have entered the food chain and is being absorbed into our bodies with, so far at least, unknown consequences.


The government needs to take radical and immediate action to address issues that have been swept under the carpet or given token treatment for far too long - and now is returning to cast a spectre over all our futures.


I wonder how much of taxpayers' money went on the Veolia New Barnfield battle (and I imagine the fight against the Hoddesdon scheme isn't over yet either)? Multiply this across the country - where identical battles were fought.


Then consider how Government action to reduce waste could have easily made the requirement for so many of these battles completely unnecessary.


The plastic bag tax showed how easy it was to drastically reduce demand for them. A plastic bottle recycling scheme in Norway has a 96% success rate there.




How bottle deposit scheme boosts recycling
"Britain could almost double the number of plastic bottles that are recycled by adding a small deposit charge to every sale, according to new evidence.
The latest figures available from Norway, which has the world's most effective Deposit Return Scheme (DRS) on plastic drinks bottles, show 96% are returned by consumers for recycling."
http://news.sky.com/story/sky-ocean-rescue-calls-for-uk-plastic-bottle-deposit-scheme-10741655


We need joined up thinking and part of the problem is that local authorities seem to be purely considering their own narrow remit rather than the national good. For reasons already given this Garden Waste scheme makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: larrylamb on January 25, 2017, 12:05:38 pm
Some very valid points well made.


Its about getting back to basics - the UK economy is nothing more than a all encompassing balance sheet, put simply you ensure all those that are ABLE to contribute do, and in turn allocate revenues fairly within your means.


That is what has not happened and why we find ourselves in this fiscal mess.


As mentioned correctly in the previous post we need some joined up thinking by all the authorities who are trusted with the public purse, it should be a prerequisite that any senior civil servant must have been employed in the commercial sector for a number of years before taking up any senior role.

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: kaz on January 26, 2017, 01:26:32 pm
That would be my guess too memsal9 that the money raised will be going into the pension coffers. 


I see that a new position "Garden Waste Officer" is to be created:




https://ats-welwynhatfield.jobsgopublic.com/vacancies/view/26052?jgp_ga=1.18690169.1372366629.1485436076


So roughly the first 1000 people paying £35 per brown bin will be funding this new job?


I wonder what they will think of next to charge us twice for?  I already pay £2600 pa Council tax and we seem to get less and less by way of services.  Not happy, seriously considering moving away from WelHat as feel taken for granted.  Have coughed up for more than 30 years, just don't feel that we are getting value for money, and I am not alone.







Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on January 26, 2017, 01:36:57 pm
Its about getting back to basics - the UK economy is nothing more than a all encompassing balance sheet, put simply you ensure all those that are ABLE to contribute do, and in turn allocate revenues fairly within your means.

Therein lies the rub. It would be lovely to think that everyone contributes fairly according to their means, but I suspect tax evasion and the cash-in-hand economy disrupt the ideal model.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on January 27, 2017, 11:35:17 am
Although I think there is scope for increasing stamp duty especially on more expensive homes / increasing the tax rate on rental income / inheritance tax levels on higher value properties / a premium tax on overseas buyers (I saw a news package recently where an oriental buyer said he was looking at buying several smaller properties in the outskirts of London to avoid a stamp duty increase). At a local level, there could be an annual HMO licensing and a stricter enforcement of regulations - no leaving your bins out for days if not weeks; parking your vehicles on the pavement and grass verges; drinking in the supposedly alcohol free zone...

Additionally or alternatively, there could be an increase in Capital Gains Tax on the sale rental properties (with safeguards against 'flipping' and other avoidance measures).

Some very valid points well made.

... it should be a prerequisite that any senior civil servant must have been employed in the commercial sector for a number of years before taking up any senior role.

Thank you for your kind comments. And I'd agree that we need a good 'drains up' / back to basics.

I've worked in both the private and public sectors and encountered good and bad managers in both.

However, I think there is something of a widespread urban myth about the efficacy of the private sector:

- Thousands of private sector businesses go bust every year. 

- They tried hiring managers from the private sector to 'help' the NHS - as I recall it greatly inflated the wage bill but failed to provide real performance improvements to justify it. Indeed, their 'solution' for patients having to wait over 48 hours to get an appointment was not to make any appointments over 48 hours.

- the financial crash of Long Term Capital Management (late 1990s) and the more recent 2008 one (with the demise of 'masters of the universe' like Merrill Lynch and Lehman Brothers) - a whole sector apparently caught out on the hop.

- the decimation of pension funds (with the exception of John Ralfe - credited as the man who saw a collapse in share values coming and shifted the Boots pension fund into bonds around 2001).

- Some former stars of the private sector who now may be available for hire: Nick Leeson (ex-Barings), Fred Goodwin (ex-RBS) and Philip Green (ex-BHS).

I'd suggest that senior civil servants be placed on short term contracts instead. That way if they can't justfiy why they should be hired for another stint they can be replaced.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: larrylamb on January 27, 2017, 07:21:44 pm
Its about getting back to basics - the UK economy is nothing more than a all encompassing balance sheet, put simply you ensure all those that are ABLE to contribute do, and in turn allocate revenues fairly within your means.

Therein lies the rub. It would be lovely to think that everyone contributes fairly according to their means, but I suspect tax evasion and the cash-in-hand economy disrupt the ideal model.
You and I cant ensure this happens but is this not the job of the elected goverment, didnt May say as much outside number 10 during her first media appearance?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on February 02, 2017, 05:39:46 pm
 Welwyn Hatfield Council has now decided to charge for garden waste collection (brown bins) without separate collection of food waste, and will therefore legally have to tell residents to put food waste in the black residual waste bins.

The fact that this is a backward step environmentally and also financially for the council-tax payer has now been underlined by a Report to be presented to the Herts County Council Waste Management Panel on Feb 7. Herts County Council has the responsibility for dealing with the waste that is collected by Welwyn Hatfield Council.

The report to the HCC Panel makes clear that WHBC, as a member of the Herts Waste Partnership, had agreed last April to an Organic Waste Framework with the principles that “Any changes to arrangements for the collection of organic waste should avoid, as far as possible, an increase in the amount of organic waste going to disposal. Boroughs and Districts will consider the practicality of implementing food waste collection services prior to the implementation of charges for the collection of garden waste.”

WHBC has now set up a system of collection that does increase the amount of organic waste going to disposal, because food waste will be going into the black residual waste bins. Unlike other local councils in Hertfordshire who are charging for brown bin collection, WHBC has not implemented food waste collection services.

The HCC Report also states that “Redirection of food waste from the organic waste stream and back into the residual waste stream could be considered as environmentally irresponsible. Although the majority of residual waste in Hertfordshire is now disposed of by Energy from Waste facilities, a proportion of the total waste managed is still
sent to landfill. Land-filling of food waste is known to have a detrimental effect on the environment with the decomposition of food waste causing odour and production of methane.”

The HCC Report also clearly states that the movement of food waste back into the residual waste stream is counter to the agreed objective of managing waste according to the Waste Hierarchy. In this hierarchy, landfill and incineration are much worse environmentally than recycling and composting.

The HCC Report also makes clear that Disposal of food in the residual waste is significantly more expensive than AD or IVC, therefore increasing costs to the council-tax payer. Anaerobic Digestion, used for food collected separately, for which there is a new plant at Coursers Farm near Colney Heath, costs £40 a tonne. In-Vessel Composting, for food and garden waste mixed, for which there is a plant at South Mimms, costs £47 a tonne. However, residual waste costs £95 to dispose of by incineration, and £102 to landfill, not including the transport costs. 

Welwyn Hatfield Council, by charging for garden waste collection without separate collection of food waste, will be damaging the environment and increasing waste disposal costs for the council-taxpayer. WHBC Conservative councillors urge us to avoid food waste and to use home composting if possible, which is right. However, not all food waste, such as tea-bags, egg-shells and vegetable peelings, can be avoided; not everyone has the space or ability for home composting; and some foods, including meat, should not be put in home-composters.

If WHBC is determined to charge for garden waste collection, then they must move as soon as possible to free separate collection of food waste.
 
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Nimbus on February 02, 2017, 10:11:08 pm
What is HCC's interaction with the residual waste stream, apart from setting recommended policy? Does it leave each district to manage its own stream to destination, or are the various streams aggregated towards a common destination? If that were the case, WHBC's unilateral decision would surely cross-contaminate other districts' streams and undermine their sustainability efforts.



Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on February 03, 2017, 10:57:16 am

Welwyn Hatfield Council, by charging for garden waste collection without separate collection of food waste, will be damaging the environment and increasing waste disposal costs for the council-taxpayer. WHBC Conservative councillors urge us to avoid food waste and to use home composting if possible, which is right. However, not all food waste, such as tea-bags, egg-shells and vegetable peelings, can be avoided; not everyone has the space or ability for home composting; and some foods, including meat, should not be put in home-composters.
 

Although commendable, I find composting food waste attracts rats and therefore have unfortunately ceased this practice.

This issue appears not to have been discussed but I suspect that if home composting of food waste increases significantly then so will the rat population!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on February 03, 2017, 10:59:03 am

From the WHT.........


http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_outlines_brown_bin_plans_1_4874118
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on February 03, 2017, 02:11:16 pm

Welwyn Hatfield Council has now decided to charge for garden waste collection (brown bins) without separate collection of food waste, and will therefore legally have to tell residents to put food waste in the black residual waste bins.


The fact that this is a backward step environmentally and also financially for the council-tax payer has now been underlined by a Report to be presented to the Herts County Council Waste Management Panel on Feb 7. Herts County Council has the responsibility for dealing with the waste that is collected by Welwyn Hatfield Council.


...The HCC Report also makes clear that Disposal of food in the residual waste is significantly more expensive than AD or IVC, therefore increasing costs to the council-tax payer. Anaerobic Digestion, used for food collected separately, for which there is a new plant at Coursers Farm near Colney Heath, costs £40 a tonne. In-Vessel Composting, for food and garden waste mixed, for which there is a plant at South Mimms, costs £47 a tonne. However, residual waste costs £95 to dispose of by incineration, and £102 to landfill, not including the transport costs. 


So, basically, WHC 'saves' money (by adding more staff and bureaucracy - and giving residents an extra bill to factor into their household budgets) by shifting work and costs on HCC, and additional expense on to residents.


Given HCC was only too willing to 'make money' by a larger-than-needed incinerator and add to the NHS's workload and budgets, to a certain extent, rather gives them a taste of their own selfish medicine.


However, ultimately, all costs will be borne by taxpayers - and given the rise of indirect taxation, like VAT on just about everything - means all of us.


It all supports my point (Reply #78) about the need for having joined up thinking and operating in the national interest, rather than in the interests of narrow remits.

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Cathy on February 04, 2017, 09:22:14 am
 Possible contamination of waste streams
Herts County Council, as Waste Disposal Authority, is responsible for dealing with all the organic and residual waste collected by the ten Districts, including WHBC, which is a Waste Collection Authority.

There will not exactly be a contamination problem because of food going in the residual (black bin) waste, as this waste will all go (unsorted) to landfill or incineration. However, there will be contamination in that there will be an increase of methane arising from landfill dumps where this waste is dumped. I think there would be an even larger methane problem if lots of garden waste goes into the residual (black bin) waste, as this will also cause methane at the landfill dumps.

There might also be a problem of contamination of the brown bin/garden waste stream, if residents put food waste into it. I’m not sure if WHBC’s brown bin waste will in future be processed by Windrow Composting rather than by In-vessel Composting as it is now. Windrow Composting can be used for pure garden waste, but In-Vessel Composting has to be used for garden waste that has food waste in it, as the heat from the in-vessel process destroys the bacteria. If WHBC’s brown bin garden waste is going to be treated in future by Windrow Composting, then it must not be contaminated by food waste.

The other problem for Herts County Council in dealing with waste from the Districts if the Districts change the composition of their collected waste is that HCC has contracts with various companies, using various methods of waste treatment, and these contracts specify a guaranteed minimum tonnage of waste sent to the companies. So it becomes very expensive if the companies have to be paid the same amount even if HCC does not have the minimum tonnage of appropriate waste to send to them. This is why it is essential that all the ten Districts in Herts co-operate over their plans for waste management. The Districts all meet in the Herts Waste Partnership, to try to ensure co-operation. But this doesn’t work if one District does not follow the agreed guidelines.

 
 
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on February 04, 2017, 01:59:29 pm
How will they check? I am not proposing doing this, but...

What if I bury potato and carrot peelings, broccoli stalks and onion skins under leaves and garden waste in my brown bin. Have the refuse collectors got time to dig deep to check? And what if the spuds, carrots and broccoli were grown in my garden (garden waste) and were uncooked and, therefore, not, technically, food waste?

And will they examine the contents of my black bin to check there is an average amount of food waste in there? Do I dispose of the food waste in plastic or black bin bags and tie them up before dumping in the black bin?

And how will they know which brown bins belong to households that have paid the annual £35 fee? Will they be bar coded?  Will the refuse collectors have scanners to check? What's to stop someone driving around on a Wednesday night and dumping their garden waste in any brown bin?

I am sure there is an expensive council brochure explaining all the above. if anyone has a copy, or a link, please post.

David
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Adrian on February 05, 2017, 10:24:59 pm

And will they examine the contents of my black bin to check there is an average amount of food waste in there?

I think Cathy already answered this point:

There will not exactly be a contamination problem because of food going in the residual (black bin) waste, as this waste will all go (unsorted) to landfill or incineration.


Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on February 06, 2017, 07:32:17 am
I think Cathy already answered this point:

Thanks Adrian, but that answer you quoted from Cathy is about a different point. I was asking a question about how they will check we are abiding by the rules; mine was not a question about how the waste is dealt with or the issue of food contamination.

I have yet to see answers to the question of how they will check will are disposing of food waste according to the new rules.

David
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Adrian on February 06, 2017, 08:31:17 am
I'm assuming that as the waste is unsorted, nobody is looking.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: LMS on February 06, 2017, 10:27:25 am
I have also been wondering about vegetable waste - if I grow my own veg am I allowed to put the outer leaves / stalks etc. in my brown bin? How will anyone tell whether these are home grown on from the local supermarket?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on February 06, 2017, 12:58:49 pm

I have yet to see answers to the question of how they will check will are disposing of food waste according to the new rules.


Possibly they may carry out some random checks - starting with people with gardens and not signed up to the new scheme.






It appears that some are missing the point.




The usual primary purpose of taxation is to raise money for the coffers (taxation is also a useful tool in protecting embryonic / strategic industries and modifying behaviour - by increasing the price to deter actions deemed 'harmful' or undesirable, an example of that being the landfill escalator tax).




In the interests of maximising returns to the public purse, a tax should be easy and inexpensive to collect and difficult to avoid / evade.




The current bins collections - and transport and disposal of collected waste - is not free. This work is done and paid for through council tax and any grant / subsidy from county or central government (who in turn get the money to do that mainly through taxation, licensing  and fines).




Now there are perfectly understandable reasons for increasing council tax - such as, government grant cuts, increases in the minimum wage, and increased demand for services.




I'd argue that the logical and sensible course of action is for WHC to increase Council tax by £35 rather than create a separate 'tax', which will need additional resources to create, administer and enforce.




The argument is reinforced by the high probability of increased fly-tipping, bonfires, greater use of facilities, like Cole Green...generating additional work and costs. Plus, there will be some households which will opt out. All of which reduces the tax take / money available.




Common sense does not have any political affiliation or axe to grind.




Consequently, for WHC to proceed along this path suggests some other motivation - possibly a general policy shift towards pay-as-you-go council services; an intention to further reduce local government (as far as waste services go it would make more economic sense to organise and run on a much larger scale than district or even county level); an intention to create additional payment / income streams for political purposes (previous governments have claimed not to have raised / cut income tax - while increasing NI contributions, imposing VAT, increasing VAT..., and assume the electorate is too stupid to figure out the sleight of hand); to provide sufficient quantities of waste for the Hoddesdon incinerator (if the contract with Veolia is like the New Barnfield one, HCC would be liable for penalties if they didn't provide a guaranteed tonnage of waste annually - a liability that would ultimately be paid for by residents - which would have a political cost); or some other reason.


I think I've finally figured out the logic behind this - apparently councils are capped by central government as to how much they can raise council tax in a year.


So this is possibly part of someone's cunning plan to create additional income streams that can be raised above and beyond any increases to Council tax.


And it also offers multiple opportunities to raise funds through fines - from flytippers and catching people attempting to circumvent the new charge by putting garden waste into their black bins (which would require something like... ooh! Random checks (and / or a Shop-Thy-Neighbour reward scheme).  >:D
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on February 08, 2017, 01:52:58 pm

Rubbish fly-tipped outside Welwyn cemetery
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/rubbish_fly_tipped_outside_welwyn_cemetery_1_4878015


Hmm...judging from the 'green' content it looks like someone is practising before the charge is introduced.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on February 18, 2017, 11:29:43 am

‘Welwyn Hatfield election shake-up could save thousands’
"Welwyn Hatfield council chiefs are wilfully refusing to make a simple change to the election system that could make major financial savings and boost turnout, opposition critics have claimed."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_election_shake_up_could_save_thousands_1_4895860


Hmm...there's no confirmation or denial of the opposition claim that there's potentially significant savings to be made.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on February 20, 2017, 04:08:36 pm
Top Welwyn Hatfield councillors under attack for raising their own allowances
"Following recommendations by an independent panel, the borough council will increase the allowances paid to cabinet members and committee chairpersons by between 58 per cent and 68 percent in 2017/18..."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/top_welwyn_hatfield_councillors_under_attack_for_raising_their_own_allowances_1_4895994


So WHC wastes thousands of pounds by holding piece-meal elections (instead of in one fell swoop - which is good enough to select an administration to run the whole country) and the people responsible get massive pay rises - and then pass the bill on to residents / cut their services.

Possibly there's a parallel universe somewhere where this makes sense.

But I doubt it.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on February 21, 2017, 08:29:35 am
Latest info from WHBC website:


http://www.welhat.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=12132&p=0
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on March 02, 2017, 09:10:55 am
I signed up to have my garden waste collected yesterday, despite the fact that the terms and conditions link is broken, the payment form demands far more information than any other I have used (they want the Bank postcode and other details which I didn't have, but the form processed without them). So now I have paid for a service without knowing the terms and conditions, and I can't find them anywhere on the site. Does anyone have them, please?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: larrylamb on March 02, 2017, 05:56:24 pm
I signed up to have my garden waste collected yesterday, despite the fact that the terms and conditions link is broken, the payment form demands far more information than any other I have used (they want the Bank postcode and other details which I didn't have, but the form processed without them). So now I have paid for a service without knowing the terms and conditions, and I can't find them anywhere on the site. Does anyone have them, please?
Probably not worth having the T & C's as the contractor and council will do what they want anyway.

You only have to look at the mission statements from any government dept and compare to what they say they will "endeavour" to do and what actually gets done.

Pay your £35 as I have done and hope for the best!
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Helen on March 02, 2017, 06:17:03 pm
Have residents received anything in the post about the £35 & how to pay it? The last thing we saw was a leaflet that went out when it was in consultation stage.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Bob on March 02, 2017, 10:47:04 pm
Have residents received anything in the post about the £35 & how to pay it? The last thing we saw was a leaflet that went out when it was in consultation stage.
Nothing in Cuffley yet but I'm waiting to see if there is a hanger left on the brown bin after it is emptied tomorrow as I have some recollection of reading something like that would happen

http://www.welhat.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=12174&p=0  is terms and conditions
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Adrian on March 03, 2017, 12:58:52 am
I signed up to have my garden waste collected yesterday,


Where, how? ... I've not been asked to, were you spoken to?
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on March 03, 2017, 07:43:27 am
I signed up to have my garden waste collected yesterday,


Where, how? ... I've not been asked to, where you spoken to?

I checked the garden waste service page (http://www.welhat.gov.uk/gardenwaste) on the council website and followed the links. The page says the new service comes in on April 1, but that it could take 10 days to process applications, so I figured I would get my payment in quickly.

Quote
Payments can take up to ten working days to be processed, so it's important to pay early if you wish to take full advantage of the service.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on March 03, 2017, 12:10:19 pm
Computer glitch as Welwyn Hatfield garden waste fee introduce
(reportedly fixed)
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/computer_glitch_as_welwyn_hatfield_garden_waste_fee_introduced_1_4913082 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/computer_glitch_as_welwyn_hatfield_garden_waste_fee_introduced_1_4913082)
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Editor on March 10, 2017, 10:20:28 am
I received my nice green garden waste stickers in the post this week, along with a letter containing the terms and conditions and a number to ring if there are any questions not covered.

My concern immediate concern having looked at the stickers is what would happen if someone peeled the stickers off, or what if someone stole the bin with my nice new stickers on. What would my position be? 

So I rang the council and a really friendly lady took my call. She told me not to worry and that those who have come up with the scheme have "thought all this through".

So I then asked my what ifs (which aren't covered in the T&C). The nice lady said "We are not doing what ifs at this point. There could be a million what ifs. We can't cover them all. If there is a problem we will deal with it."

So I explained that the stickers didn't have any noticeable mark to say they are linked to my house. "Oh, they will know", I was told.  The lady seemed to think they were barcoded, but I can't see a visible barcode on mine. She also explained that they are difficult to peel off.

I guess it's a matter of fingers crossed, then. Glad those behind this have thought through the millions of what ifs, even if they are unable to explain the answers until the particular what if comes up.

 ::)

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: BrookyP on March 10, 2017, 10:35:46 am
Doesn't sound like much joined up thinking there from the council. This of course is no surprise.Indeed if there is no independent bar code then what stops someone faking the stickers. Its a bit like when the paper recycle bin gets smashed from poor design and operative handling (mine about 4 times a year) then you can just call up and get a nice new one for "free". Amazing service!! I guess its not a massive problem for them though as its not there money they are spending so hey...nothing to see here. :mblah05:
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: peppermint on March 10, 2017, 10:51:12 am
If we don't subscribe will the council remove the brown bin (I hope so, one less bin to clutter up my drive).

Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: trekbat on March 10, 2017, 04:32:33 pm
I doubt they'll be taking away the old bins - they didn't when they introduced the wheelie bins.

Still, I suppose you could chop up the old one - and put it in the blue recycling bin, of course.

--------------------------------

Made my payment today - bearing in mind that they expect to take 10 days to process the paperwork and send the stickers, etc.

Got through on the telephone number on the third attempt (I try and avoid using the internet to pay for things as much as possible - and that was before the latest batch of Wikileaks).

Held in a queue for several minutes before the call was answered. A man took some details and provide a reference number before I was put back into the system to be connected to the payment line to enter card details. 

So if you're planning on paying then I'd suggest you do it sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: larrylamb on March 10, 2017, 08:33:21 pm
Doesn't sound like much joined up thinking there from the council. This of course is no surprise.Indeed if there is no independent bar code then what stops someone faking the stickers. Its a bit like when the paper recycle bin gets smashed from poor design and operative handling (mine about 4 times a year) then you can just call up and get a nice new one for "free". Amazing service!! I guess its not a massive problem for them though as its not there money they are spending so hey...nothing to see here. :mblah05:
My uncles sisters second cousin who's father is the tea lady in county hall has heard that all the additional fly tipping and resultant rubbish will be brushed into the many potholes whereby operatives will be ordered to jump to up and down on the filled holes to ensure compactness.

The council hope to roll this out across Herts by April 1st with the intention of saving money and keeping staff fit.
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: epiphany on March 17, 2017, 04:36:55 pm

Terms & conditions revised:


http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/brown_bins_charge_welwyn_hatfield_council_adjusts_t_cs_following_public_backlash_1_4936801
Title: Re: Garden Waste Collection Charge
Post by: Aqila on March 18, 2017, 11:29:32 pm
I am thinking of getting a wormery for the waste we can no longer put in brown bins. 

Apparently the worms eat vegetables, peelings, fruit, peel, coffee/tea bags, pasta, rice, bread, cereal, cakes, biscuits, crushed egg shell, cardboard, paper, human/pet hair, pet poo, leaves, meat.  They don't take spicey foods, garlic, grass cuttings, bones, eggs, dairy, oils, chicken manure.

The best ones seem to be made of trays with a sump/tap at the bottom.  The worms work their way up the layers through holes.  You add fresh waste to the top, and get compost from the bottom layer, liquid fertiliser from the sump.

Has anyone tried a wormery?