Brookmans Park Newsletter Community Discussion Forum

General Discussion Boards => Transport => Topic started by: larrylamb on April 19, 2012, 01:39:00 pm

Title: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on April 19, 2012, 01:39:00 pm
There is growing momentum to introduce 20mph speed limits on all residential roads (Living Streets policy briefing 02/09) across all areas of the UK.

I would be interested in local views on this, personally i think it is right and proper, especially on roads without pavements.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Albert Ross on April 19, 2012, 04:13:49 pm
20 mph is too slow and almost impossible to keep to in modern day cars. If you drive with due care and attention it should not be necessary to impose such a silly ilimit. If I see children or anybody that looks like a risk I slow down without being told to do so. Anyway, hardly anybody keeps to the existng limits so lowering them more would have little or no effect as it is impossible to police. It's peoples attitude that needs altering, not the speed limit!
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: sasquartch on April 19, 2012, 04:40:23 pm
introduce 20mph speed limits on all residential roads

What's a residential road though ? The A1000 ?

It might be a good idea in some areas, perhaps near primary schools, but as Albert Ross says, difficult to enforce and impractical in many cases.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on April 19, 2012, 05:12:37 pm
20 mph is too slow and almost impossible to keep to in modern day cars. If you drive with due care and attention it should not be necessary to impose such a silly ilimit. If I see children or anybody that looks like a risk I slow down without being told to do so. Anyway, hardly anybody keeps to the existng limits so lowering them more would have little or no effect as it is impossible to police. It's peoples attitude that needs altering, not the speed limit!
what about the child that runs into your path from knowwhere, that you havent seen, a person who is struck at 30mph has a 80% chance of survival, at 20mph this increases to 97%.

There is a policy briefing by a charity called "living streets" available to download, if anyone gets the chance i urge them to read it, once read it may change your view on this Albert.

people who use excessive speed are rarely justified, a police officer once said to me "people always think driving at inappropriate speeds is ok until someone they care for is killed by a speeding driver.

I have not trouble driving any number of vehicles at 20mph, it is in their design.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Ferdie on April 19, 2012, 09:49:24 pm
There is a policy briefing by a charity called "living streets" available to download, if anyone gets the chance i urge them to read it, once read it may change your view on this Albert.

Possibly to help the debate a link to the policy briefing to which LarryLamb refers can be found at http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/sites/default/files/content/library/Policy_briefings/20mphpolicybriefing240911.pdf (http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/sites/default/files/content/library/Policy_briefings/20mphpolicybriefing240911.pdf)
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on April 19, 2012, 10:27:38 pm
There is a policy briefing by a charity called "living streets" available to download, if anyone gets the chance i urge them to read it, once read it may change your view on this Albert.

Possibly to help the debate a link to the policy briefing to which LarryLamb refers can be found at http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/sites/default/files/content/library/Policy_briefings/20mphpolicybriefing240911.pdf (http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/sites/default/files/content/library/Policy_briefings/20mphpolicybriefing240911.pdf)

Yes thankyou Ferdie.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Albert Ross on April 20, 2012, 07:26:18 am
Nothing changes my view on this because as I previously stated just putting a 20mph sign up will not make people drive at this speed so is a waste of public money. I do keep to the limits and I slow down considerably if I see children or infirm pedestrians which is all common sense. Making long stretches of road 20mph will just frustrate drivers and make them more likely to speed. Perhaps more emphasis should be aimed at educating children not to cross roads in a dangerous manor therefore alleviating most of the problem. Maybe dedicated raised crossing places would be a better answer.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: BrookyP on April 20, 2012, 08:07:32 am
20 mph-good idea-always stick to that in local roads where possible.

bp
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: John_fraser on April 21, 2012, 07:45:31 pm
Making long stretches of road 20mph will just frustrate drivers and make them more likely to speed. Perhaps more emphasis should be aimed at educating children not to cross roads in a dangerous manor therefore alleviating most of the problem. Maybe dedicated raised crossing places would be a better answer.

Educating children not to cross roads in a dangerous manor, what a truly brilliant idea. Such a good idea that from the day a child first learns to walk every parent spends every day trying to do just that. Sadly children are children and it takes time (years!) for them to learn this. As every parent will know, the parent only has to turn their back of five seconds and a child will drop their toy into the road, see a friendly cat on the other side or run off in a temper tantrum and run into the road.

Of course educating drivers, who are adults, to slow down to 20mph and not become frustrated like a two year old refused sweets isn't going to happen. The seconds or minutes a driver saves by going faster is more important than the years or decades lost by the victim of a RTA.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Albert Ross on April 23, 2012, 01:58:48 pm
So basically, what we are saying is, there is nothing we can do. Parents are unable to keep children under control, the motorists is committed to saving time and not lives and the police have insufficient funds to enforce the law. Might as well leave things as they are then and save money putting up new signs.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on April 23, 2012, 05:33:00 pm
So basically, what we are saying is, there is nothing we can do. Parents are unable to keep children under control, the motorists is committed to saving time and not lives and the police have insufficient funds to enforce the law. Might as well leave things as they are then and save money putting up new signs.
I take it that you havent had a chance to read the "living streets" policy then?
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: John_fraser on April 23, 2012, 06:19:08 pm
Children are children and can be expected not to always do the correct thing all the time; Parents are human and can be expected to be distracted at timed; Motorists are human too and can be expected to act in their own best interests unless educated to the dangers they pose to others and 'encouraged' to limit the risks via physical means or via threat of punishment via fines.

Signs on their own will limit the speed of some or most drivers. Enforcement of the limit will reduce the speed of most.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Albert Ross on April 24, 2012, 07:44:25 am
Putting 40mph signs up along Station Road has made no difference as far as I can see; I travel this stretch twice a day, at the prescribed speed limits, and am regularly tailgated or on the odd occasion even overtaken. The only way of enforcing a 20mph limit would be with traffic calming measures and do we really want more humps? 
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: John_fraser on April 24, 2012, 07:57:59 am
Signs on their own will limit the speed of some or most drivers.
I travel this stretch twice a day, at the prescribed speed limits

So you agree with me.


Enforcement of the limit will reduce the speed of most.

The only way of enforcing a 20mph limit would be with traffic calming measures and do we really want more humps? 

Sounds like you still agree with me, although there are additional means to slow traffic.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: LongTallSally on April 24, 2012, 09:57:31 am
I cannot see whats wrong with having a 20mph!

Surely, a motorist increases the risk to a pedestrian. Although the risk may be small with a conscientious driver, it is still much higher than if their car wasn't on the road.

As the motorist is capable of inflicting far more damage on the pedestrian than the pedestrian on the motorist, I would have thought it was up to the motorist to take action to mitigate the risk they have created.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Mermaid on April 24, 2012, 12:18:06 pm
I'm all in favour of a 20mph limit around the village, I rarely do much more than that anyway with the schools, parked cars both sides and speed bumps. Personally I don't have much sympathy with drivers who argue that their performance cars can't go that slowly and that they are such fabulous drivers that it doesn't matter if they exceed the limits!
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Albert Ross on April 24, 2012, 01:15:16 pm
Nobody was asking for sympathy, Larrylamb just asked for opinions but as usual it turns into something more involved. I have added a poll which is perhaps the easiest way of seeing what the majority want without digging at each other.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Ferdie on April 26, 2012, 10:29:01 am
Putting 40mph signs up along Station Road has made no difference as far as I can see; I travel this stretch twice a day, at the prescribed speed limits, and am regularly tailgated or on the odd occasion even overtaken. The only way of enforcing a 20mph limit would be with traffic calming measures and do we really want more humps?
As so often it is the minority of individuals who do this that cost the rest of us a lot of money and inconvenience. Once again, we need to use a sledge hammer to crack a nut. 
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Alex on May 11, 2012, 04:55:15 pm
There is nothing wrong with the current speed limits. Lets move on!
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: NMLHS on July 04, 2012, 10:55:31 pm
It might well be a good idea but is it enforceable? The 30 mph limit is regularly ignored so 20 mph will be ignored by even more people.  It works in narrow streets but most of the roads in BP are too wide.

The safest thing but too expensive in wages would be to reduce the limit to 4 mph and bring back a team of people to escort vehicles through the village with red flags (don't laugh, it will come).  :-\

Edited only to correct smiley code
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on July 08, 2012, 11:13:20 am
It might well be a good idea but is it enforceable? The 30 mph limit is regularly ignored so 20 mph will be ignored by even more people.  It works in narrow streets but most of the roads in BP are too wide.

The safest thing but too expensive in wages would be to reduce the limit to 4 mph and bring back a team of people to escort vehicles through the village with red flags (don't laugh, it will come).  :-\

Edited only to correct smiley code
Drivers do not consider their speed based on safety, only on the chances of being prosecuted.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Editor on July 08, 2012, 01:49:02 pm
Drivers do not consider their speed based on safety, only on the chances of being prosecuted.

That is a massive generalisation. I base my speed on safety. 
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Mermaid on July 08, 2012, 02:57:30 pm
Drivers do not consider their speed based on safety, only on the chances of being prosecuted.

That is a massive generalisation. I base my speed on safety.

And so do I and quite a few other drivers I know. Not everyone is looking to 'get away with' what they can.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: sasquartch on July 08, 2012, 03:06:38 pm
These days a lot of drivers base their speed on economy as well as safety.

The difference to me driving home from work at 80mph against 60mph is probably a few minutes at most - yet a big saving in fuel, as well as a safer, less stressful journey.

So, I agree with the last two posters.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: John_fraser on July 08, 2012, 05:39:50 pm
I think Larry's got a point. If I'm in a hurry I might well drive over the limit and keep an eye out for police and cameras. I know that's wrong, but I bet most drivers when late for an important meeting or a flight will do the same. Therefore, while I like to drive at a safe speed I am deterred from speeding more my the threat of a fine than by the dangers of speeding.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Editor on July 08, 2012, 07:08:25 pm
I think Larry's got a point. If I'm in a hurry I might well drive over the limit and keep an eye out for police and cameras. I know that's wrong, but I bet most drivers when late for an important meeting or a flight will do the same. Therefore, while I like to drive at a safe speed I am deterred from speeding more my the threat of a fine than by the dangers of speeding.

Sure, for some that might be the deterrent, but not for all.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on July 10, 2017, 11:31:54 am
I see that 20 mph limits are being introduced around residential areas of Welham Green, I would like to see this extended to BP.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Editor on July 10, 2017, 12:11:53 pm
I see that 20 mph limits are being introduced around residential areas of Welham Green, I would like to see this extended to BP.

The last time we were in Liverpool we noticed that the speed limit for most built up areas is now 20mph. At first it feels slow, but once you get used to it, it's okay. You just tend to allow extra time for trips. And I didn't sense aggressive drivers pressurising me from behind, which I do occasionally find when driving along Georges Wood Road and observing the 20mph limit.

But Larry, could you reconsider the "No Excuses" signs on GWR? They just comes across as unwelcoming, threatening and, quiet frankly, meaningless.

 ;)

Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Alex on July 10, 2017, 03:47:26 pm
 ;D
Agreed "no Excuses" means go faster!!!

Alex
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Nobby on July 10, 2017, 05:18:07 pm
I'd be happy if drivers observed the current 30mph speed limit on Bluebridge Road, particularly the boy racers at night.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on August 18, 2017, 12:49:13 pm
;D
Agreed "no Excuses" means go faster!!!

Alex
Wouldn't jest about using excessive speed, If you are unfortunate to be involved in a incident involving inappropriate speed, statements such as these can often come back and bite you on your backside.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Editor on August 18, 2017, 02:03:04 pm
Wouldn't jest about using excessive speed, If you are unfortunate to be involved in a incident involving inappropriate speed, statements such as these can often come back and bite you on your backside.

I have no problem with the 20 mph speed limit. I think it's a great idea. But I think the signs could be more friendly and welcoming. I really don't like the current 'No Excuses', so I've bashed out a few alternatives for the GWR residents committee to consider at their next meeting.  I'd be happy with any of the three below. :)
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Ferdie on August 18, 2017, 02:44:15 pm
Actually think we don't need to be nice. 'Speed Kills' is actually the message. And before the trolls start, 'inappropriate' is obviously relevant in most cases. A residential private road with no footpath, yes 'no excuses' is indeed correct. I went to a funeral of a child who had been run over, (although in that incident speed wasn't the cause) and the memory of that child's coffin will live with me. With Chancellors nearby, there are no excuses and speeding there could indeed cost lives. Happy that sign stays the same.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: sasquartch on August 18, 2017, 03:03:17 pm
Waste of time

If people kept to the 30 limit it would be a big improvement - for example I always try and get a 'smiley-face' when driving past the speed detectors on Bluebridge Road and Station Road yet frequently I'll have some idiot driving about 6 inches away from my rear bumper who clearly wants to go much faster

There are no police for the most part to enforce anything so not convinced yet more signs are a deterrent

And it's not just youngsters in their chavved-up Corsas and the like, I frequently see big V8 Mercs and similar accelerating hard away from the village
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Editor on August 18, 2017, 03:10:50 pm
Actually think we don't need to be nice.

But Ferdie, what does the sign actually mean, and what message does it convey? I have been overtaken on GWR doing 20mph. Now that is dangerous on a road with no pavement. 'No excuses' suggests that when people are stopped action is taken. Is it? Who by? I have never seen traffic police on the road. Who is it that won't accept excuses? Better, in my view, to have a more friendly sign rather than an aggressive and unfriendly message. I think the middle of my three would be better 'Asking Nicely'.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on August 18, 2017, 04:43:14 pm
Speeding motorists will always have an excuse as to why they were using inappropriate speed, when there is seldom a valid reason. The "No excuses" signage is not new to GWR and is in place around Bucks and Beds, It is designed for impact and to try to get drivers to think about their actions.

In the absence of effective policing in dealing with the speeding in GWR we are simply doing all we can to mitigate.

Yes the signage might seem aggressive but so is a speeding vehicle on a residential road with no pathways.

David please dont be offended and look for negatives, put your sensitivities to one side and support and not undermine what we are trying to do, you may not agree with the wording fine, but please lets have support not diminution on this public forum.

Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Editor on August 18, 2017, 07:14:08 pm
Yes the signage might seem aggressive but so is a speeding vehicle on a residential road with no pathways.

David please dont be offended and look for negatives, put your sensitivities to one side and support and not undermine what we are trying to do, you may not agree with the wording fine, but please lets have support not diminution on this public forum.

Larry, you have my support. I think 20 mph is fast enough on that road. I just don't like the tone of the wording that's all; and I am glad you agree that it's aggressive. But I am certainly not asking or campaigning for the 20 mph signs to be removed. Far from it. Leave them there, just consider my options for a more friendly tone.  :)

Yes the signage might seem aggressive but so is a speeding vehicle on a residential road with no pathways.

As for GWR having no pathways, people can walk along the verges and avoid walking on the road the entire length on both sides except for two spots, one on either side, where the verges have been cordoned off with bits of string and sticks, forcing people to step into the road.

Perhaps the residents committee should have words with whoever is responsible and ask them to remove them on safety grounds?
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on August 18, 2017, 09:14:28 pm
Yes the signage might seem aggressive but so is a speeding vehicle on a residential road with no pathways.

David please dont be offended and look for negatives, put your sensitivities to one side and support and not undermine what we are trying to do, you may not agree with the wording fine, but please lets have support not diminution on this public forum.

Larry, you have my support. I think 20 mph is fast enough on that road. I just don't like the tone of the wording that's all; and I am glad you agree that it's aggressive. But I am certainly not asking or campaigning for the 20 mph signs to be removed. Far from it. Leave them there, just consider my options for a more friendly tone.  :)

Yes the signage might seem aggressive but so is a speeding vehicle on a residential road with no pathways.

As for GWR having no pathways, people can walk along the verges and avoid walking on the road the entire length on both sides except for two spots, one on either side, where the verges have been cordoned off with bits of string and sticks, forcing people to step into the road.

Perhaps the residents committee should have words with whoever is responsible and ask them to remove them on safety grounds?
Unfortunately older pedestrians and users of wheel and pushchairs using the verges doesn't work for obvious reasons, yes on private property there are pieces of garden twine around some sticks but this does not force people to step into the road, if people need to step away from danger a piece of garden twine is no barrier. Some households have unmade drives, high kerbs and trees and bushes, I would imagine these are more likely to force people into the road than garden twine.

We have large signs on GWR stating that the roadway is shared with vehicles and pedestrians, I'm sorry if you haven't seen it, perhaps the signs should be more aggressive.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: wendypugh on August 25, 2017, 11:08:38 am
Hi
I would support the 20 mile limit any where in the village, we have been passed in Bluebridge Road trying to keep a smiley face by cars not interested in slowing down.
Also Peplins Way by the school is another area which drivers need to be reminded, just because they have dropped off their children they go hell for leather to get away, I am surprised (but glad) there has been no accidents
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Editor on August 25, 2017, 12:14:07 pm
Hi, I would support the 20 mile limit any where in the village, we have been passed in Bluebridge Road trying to keep a smiley face by cars not interested in slowing down.

Agreed, I would support 20 mph on all roads in the village. I have also been overtaken several times in the 30 mph areas and doing 20 mph on GWR, so I guess that, whatever the speed limit, there will still be those prepared to overtake. And I just wonder whether overtaken a motorist observing the speed limit would increase if all village roads were 20 mph. And, if so, would that be an increased danger? I notice from the poll at the top that 64% of those who voted would not want a 20 mph limit.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on October 09, 2017, 05:38:32 pm
Another out of control vehicle has taken out a lamp post in GWR.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: Mr Green on October 09, 2017, 10:14:43 pm
Another dangerously positioned lamppost impedes innocent motorist.
Title: Re: Introducing 20 mph speed limits in Brookmans Park
Post by: larrylamb on October 10, 2017, 10:27:46 am
Unfortunately where the vehicle collided with the lampost, this we are being told has damaged other underground pipework which is being assessed by utility.

We are unsure of the impact if any on local residents at this stage.