Brookmans Park Newsletter Community Discussion Forum

General Discussion Boards => Environment => Topic started by: Editor on February 09, 2008, 05:14:10 pm

Title: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on February 09, 2008, 05:14:10 pm
Note: First post updated 09/08/2013 to include some important diary dates from Cathy.

Hearing in Public for Hertfordshire Waste Sites Allocations document dates announced to be September 3, 4 and 5th, and Nov 5th and 6th
(Nov 5th will be specifically about the New Barnfield site)


1. THE PUBLIC INQUIRY
Veolia’s Planning Application, for a 380,000 tonnes per year waste incinerator at New Barnfield, is to be considered at  a Public Inquiry, running Sept 10-13, Sept 17-20, Sept 24-27, then a week’s break, and running Oct 8-11, Oct 15-18 and Oct 22-25th probably. This will be held for the first week at the Fielder Centre on the Hatfield Business Park, and later at the Ramada Comet Hotel Hatfield, and unknown venues.

Please will all those opposed to an incinerator at New Barnfield try to come to a protest outside the Fielder Centre from 9.30 a.m. on Sept 10th and then go inside to listen to the Inquiry, on whichever days you can. There will be room for 100 of the public in the Inquiry hall, and an overflow room.

The Inquiry will begin at 10 a.m. Tuesday to Friday. There will also be an evening when members of the public can express their views.

2. THE HERTFORDSHIRE WASTE SITES ALLOCATIONS DOCUMENT – HEARING IN PUBLIC

The Waste Sites Allocations Document is the second part of the policy for waste for the whole of Hertfordshire. The first part of the policy for waste is called the Waste Core Strategy, and this part has already been agreed and approved by an inspector.
The Waste Sites Allocations Document lists many potential waste sites in Hertfordshire, including New Barnfield, which it lists as suitable for various waste uses, including thermal treatment (i.e. incineration).This second part of the waste policy for Hertfordshire has not yet been agreed and approved by an inspector.

It has now been announced the Waste Sites Allocations Document will go to a Hearing in Public, in front of an independent inspector, on Sept 3 – 5th, and on Nov 5th and 6th. The session on Nov 5th will be specifically about the New Barnfield site.
This Hearing in Public will be at County Hall, Hertford. We do not yet know how much room there will be for the public to listen to this Hearing – but the Hearing is open to the public, and we hope some of you will come to listen, especially on Nov 5th.


The latest North Mymms District Green Belt Society newsletter, which is being delivered to all local homes (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php?topic=1649.msg13728#msg13728), has information about the public consultation into proposals to set up a waste handling site in Hatfield. Click here (http://www.brookmans.com/news/february08/wasterecycling.shtml) for more details.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: kgbgirl on August 25, 2008, 09:53:57 am
Does anyone know a local person who can clear household rubbish ? I have probably a transit van full and would really like to get this cleared by someone who can be trusted not to flytip once paid. If anyone has used services of similar reliable person could you please let me know their details by e-mailing to rachel (at) gbpackaging (dot) com. Thank you. (Moffats Lane)

Editor's note: edited to hide email address to prevent spamming.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on August 25, 2008, 02:46:12 pm
Have you considered a skip ?

You can get them delivered and picked up next day - might well work out a similar cost to a 'man with van' and you would know the rubbish will be properly disposed of.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on April 05, 2009, 07:19:11 am
Plans to build a waste incinerator just north of Welham Green have moved a step closer. Apparently, it would be capable of processing enough annual waste to fill Wembley Stadium. Herts County Council says New Barnfield has been identified as a ‘reference site’, although the authority says a final decision on the location has not yet been taken.  Click here (http://www.brookmans.com/news/april09/new_waste_disposal_site.shtml) for more details.

I am all for reducing landfill and, as HCC says "recover energy from the waste that cannot be recycled", but won't there be nasty emissions for those living down wind of the plant?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on April 05, 2009, 10:20:23 am
I thought this area of green belt between A1001 South Way and Dellsome Lane/Pooleys Lane was a proposed building site for new homes? - I wonder if the incinerator will feature on estate agent details??
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peter Hastings on April 05, 2009, 10:32:10 am
It may be hard to imagine but I am told by those who know more about this than I do that the technology is such that emissions are as clean if not cleaner than the normal air.

I think once you get over the initial shock of the idea of having a big bonfire in our local area, this may turn out to be not a bad idea overall. It may also be better for us than having a residential estate there with inadequate resources and generating more local waste!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mike Hobday on April 06, 2009, 07:42:17 am
For my part, I'm strongly opposed to the proposed incinerator.

It's not just that it's in the wrong place, right between two residential areas, it's the wrong technology. When I represented Welwyn Garden City on the County Council from 1997 to 2005, I worked across the party divide to help develop a waste plan that promoted recycling above incineration, and I'm sorry this approach has changed.

Certainly, technology has improved over the years, and new incinerators will cause less pollution than older ones. But incinertaors require 30 year contractss - inevitably acting as a strong disincentive to recycling, and more importantly, to waste minimisation which should be our first priority.

If large amounts of money are contractually required to burn our waste, there's inevitably less money available to put into another improving technology - recycling. As our ability to recycle grows and grows, we're likely to reach the point, well before 30 years, that the residual waste stream is too small to feed the incinerator contract.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on April 06, 2009, 12:03:43 pm
The proposed waste site at New Barnfield is DEFINITELY not the right place. That is confirmed by the County Council's own consultant report on suitable sites, where New Barnfield scored significantly lower than other sites in Welwyn Hatfield.

It's pretty clear to see that the Conservative County Council is pushing New Barnfield because it owns it. I suspect what is going on is that the PFI credits will be combined with private investment to fund the project, including buying the land from the county council. The county therefore gets significant funds from land sales which it can spend on a variety of pet projects that would not be appropriate for PFI.

It's also not the right technology, there are more appropriate options. The problem with the plan for an incinerator is the contract would require a specific volume of waste every year for at least 25-30 years. So where's the incentive to recycle more? If the volume of waste drops below the threshold, the council is still compelled to pay. Other systems are much more modular and can be much more easily scaled up and down with changes to waste volumes.

We'll be campaigning to get the Tories to think again. Watch this space for more news on the developing protest plans.

Regards,

Paul Zukowskyj, Liberal Democrat Prospective MP for Welwyn Hatfield

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Jill Weston on April 07, 2009, 03:42:21 pm
As the Green Party Parliamentary candidate for Welwyn Hatfield, I'm obviously against any incineration anywhere in the UK, let alone in Hertfordshire. As for the likely choice of New Barnfield as a site, anyone can see this would be totally unacceptable, being so close to a school and houses.
The County Council has only secured half the funding - so would the other half come out of a PFI (Private Finance Initiative)? This is likely - ie the council mortgages us up to the hilt in the most expensive and uneconomical way possible - PFI's are notorious for this.
The point has already been made about incinerators feeding on stuff which is recyclable. This material has to include paper and plastics, otherwise the incinerator would not burn. But we already recycle both these materials, at least in Welwyn Hatfield. From talking to local people, I'm aware many would like kerbside collection of plastics now that we've taken the first step and got plastic bottle bring banks. This would be very unlikely to happen if an incinerator needed feeding.
Incineration converts thousands of potentially recyclable materials into toxic dust and ash. It is said modern ones can keep the emission of toxins to a low level if they are well-run - but they very often are not well-run. And why should we have or want ANY toxins being released into the air we breathe?
Greenpeace reserach shows that most incinerators only convert 20% of the heat they generate into electricity, which is very inefficient.
We should have a Zero Waste Strategy, (ie nothing to go into the ordinary dustbin) by using mimimise, re-use and recycle policies, and Mechanical and Biological Treatment plants to do separation for further recycling and composting, over and above what the local council is able to do via bring bins and kerbside collection.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 09, 2009, 09:31:18 pm
Prospective Labour Party candidate, Mike Hobday has just tweeted an update from the incinerator meeting saying that ...

Quote
Tory councillor Derrick Ashley says New Barnfield "probable site" for incinerator

http://twitter.com/MikeHobday/status/2555564950 (http://twitter.com/MikeHobday/status/2555564950)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mike Hobday on February 20, 2010, 11:17:06 am
Hatfield Against Incineration is organising a public meeting at the Welham Green Memorial Hall, next Saturday, 27 February at 1.30.
All political parties are invited, and expected to send speakers.

Remember, it's not just New Barnfield under threat - close though that is to Welham Green. Travellers Lane is itself listed as a suitable site for incineration: http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/w/wsawelwynhatfield09.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/w/wsawelwynhatfield09.pdf)

Facebook invite at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=354459655999&ref=ts (http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=354459655999&ref=ts) for those so minded!

Mike
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on February 22, 2010, 11:22:26 am
Where did Mike Hobday get this idea from about Travellers Lane, Welham Green?  I can find no trace of such an idea.  For the record, North Mymms District Green belt Society is against any waste handling facility at these two sites.

In a report to the council last December, Welwyn Hatfield Council officers had this to say about Travellers Lane (I have put in bold certain words to highlight them)

Travellers Lane: The Travellers Lane site is designated as an employment area in the District Plan.

The two main concerns with regard to this site are the proximity of sensitive receptors, namely residential properties, and the size and availability of units. In light of the close proximity of these sensitive receptors it is recommended that an objection be raised to those proposed facilities likely to have negative impacts on the amenity of residents. These include materials recovery facilities, waste electrical and electronic equipment, end of life vehicle recovery, thermal treatment (particularly energy from waste facilities) and mechanical biological treatment.


With regard to New Barnfield, the officers report said this:

These sensitive receptors (as above), depending on the type of facility proposed, may be negatively affected by development in terms of nuisance caused by increased HGV activity, visual intrusion, noise and vibration, odour, and air emissions including dust.

In light of close proximity of the school it is recommended that an objection be raised to all facilities on the grounds that the number of HGV movements and the associated disturbance and health implications to the pupils and staff would be unacceptable.

If a new access route was established certain facilities would still be considered unacceptable and should be objected to. These thermal treatment (particularly energy from waste facilities) include materials recovery facilities, waste electrical and electronic equipment, end of life vehicle recovery,and mechanical biological treatment.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mike Hobday on February 22, 2010, 11:36:49 am
Dear Bob,
See the Herts CC link in my first post for the map, and page 55 of http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/w/wastesiteallocnov09.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/w/wastesiteallocnov09.pdf) for the description of "Suggested Waste Facilities" which includes, as you quote from Borough council officers "Thermal Treatment."
Apologies for not including the second link in my original post, and thanks for finding the Borough Council report which confirms it.
Mike
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on March 11, 2010, 01:50:20 pm
We went to the HCC Committee meeting on Tuesday which accepted the report on the public consultations which the Council held re the above.

It was very low key, with no decisions being made.  But an interesting point to emerge (as I understood it) was that the only objection the public can make to whatever decision they take is on whether they have carried out their activities, eg the public consultation, with due rigour.  Any other objections would be invalid.

Grant Schapps, Mike Hobday, the Liberal Democrat candidate and the Green Party Candidate are all working to resist New Barnfield being chosen, although they differ on whether incineration should be resisted in principle.

More information at

www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)

If you agree that it would not be a good idea to have an incinerator so close to Welham Green and Brookmans Park, it might be worth writing a few letters/emails now.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mermaid on March 11, 2010, 11:28:39 pm
Thank you for this, chicken legs.

If people want to send letters/emails for or against, is there a particular person to send to? The list on the website is rather long and people are more likely to write if the name and address is readily to hand. Any chance you could post one in the forum here?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mike Hobday on March 12, 2010, 09:13:39 pm
If people want to send letters/emails for or against, is there a particular person to send to? The list on the website is rather long and people are more likely to write if the name and address is readily to hand. Any chance you could post one in the forum here?
The key decision maker is Councillor Derrick Ashley, http://www.hertsdirect.org/yrccouncil/councillors/ccllrs/dashley/. (http://www.hertsdirect.org/yrccouncil/councillors/ccllrs/dashley/.) He's the cabinet member responsible for waste. (or the top rubbish tory, as some might say :))
Mike
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on March 12, 2010, 11:09:41 pm
Please don't make provocative political comments, Mike, even humorously, as it may alienate some possible supporters.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: ScottishGoat on October 29, 2010, 02:07:33 pm
Hertfordshire County Council have submitted a planning application for a waste incinerator at New Barnfield, Travellers Lane, Welham Green.  It is proposed that the plant will burn up to 400,000 tonnes of household, commercial and industrial waste per year.  The incinerator is being marketed as an "Energy Recovery Facility" the idea being that it will eliminate waste and generate electricity.

In reality it will not eliminate waste, but merely convert the waste into poisonous air emissions and toxic ash.  Waste incinerators are a major source of dioxin compounds, furans, mercury, arsenic, cadmium, lead, nitrogen oxide, hydrogen chloride, hydrogen fluoride, sulfur dioxides and particulate matter. 

For further information on waste incinerators in the UK please visit: http://www.ukwin.org.uk (http://www.ukwin.org.uk)  (includes an interactive map showing existing and potential waste incinerator sites)

For details of the New Barnfield application and to object/comment visit: https://fastweb.welhat.gov.uk/welcome.asp (https://fastweb.welhat.gov.uk/welcome.asp) and enter S6/2010/2218/CN in the Planning Application Reference.

The Welwyn Hatfield Times is running an online petition called “Infer No”: http://services.whtimes.co.uk/competition/whtimes/infernopetition.aspx (http://services.whtimes.co.uk/competition/whtimes/infernopetition.aspx)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on October 29, 2010, 04:36:24 pm
Just merged four posts on this topic so that people can find the history of the debate.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on November 16, 2010, 08:57:50 am
Im coming into this pretty late but it seems that this proposal is the single biggest thing affecting this area of herts for a long while.

Are there any local pressure groups formed to oppose this. What is being done with regards planning objections etc.

I find it worrying that a plant burning thousands of tonnes of rubbish will be operating nearby by with the resulting fumes (containing all sorts of nasty compounds) being blown all over hertfordshire.

any info appreciated-lets address and face this problem with the same vigour as the dog mess discussion-its far more important!!

bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on November 16, 2010, 09:21:58 am
Are there any local pressure groups formed to oppose this. What is being done with regards planning objections etc.

Scroll up this thread to see earlier contributions, particularly reply 13 (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php?topic=1651.msg20518#msg20518) and reply 17 (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php?topic=1651.msg23200#msg23200).

David
 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on November 16, 2010, 11:10:44 am
The County Council Waste Management Cabinet Panel is meeting at 2pm today.  On the agenda is this item relating to New Barnfield.  
 http://www.hertsdirect.org/mm/15529271/15744854/item5wasteman161110.doc (http://www.hertsdirect.org/mm/15529271/15744854/item5wasteman161110.doc)

The Panel is recommended to vote on this motion.

2.1.   At the meeting of the County Council on 12 October M Cowan moved the following motion in relation to waste procurement:-

   “This council recognises:-

(a) the unsuitability of the proposed waste disposal sites at New Barnfield and Harper Lane
(b) the undesirability of letting commercial operators take decisions on location that should be made by elected councillors
Council therefore asks the Cabinet to use the opportunities given by localism to look for alternative options that avoid the need to site such a large facility in parts of the county unable to cope with the related traffic movements."

Both the Parish Council and the Green Belt Society have always maintained that traffic would be a major problem if the New Barnfield site was chosen.  Someone who lives near Harper Lane told me that local residents are equally opposed to an incinerator being sited there.  

My personal view is that the question of toxic fumes etc depends upon who you believe, just like 'global warming'.  Incinerators are used in other countries but I have not heard of any ill effects from their fumes etc.  Does BrookyP or any other reader have any knowledge of incinerators in Germany for example?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 12, 2010, 02:51:57 pm
It's interesting how many people have eagerly accepted the notion that the whole global warming debate is some kind of conspiracy theory / devious ploy to raise taxes.

Few, it seems, have raised any eyebrows about how the story broke - right before a major global conference on climate change. Or considered who benefits from the endless demand for plastics and fossil-fuel power generation.

As for raising taxes - governments around the world are doing that now because of the state of their finances. No elaborate deception required.

It's also interesting to compare the artist impression of the incinerator or Energy from Waste (EfW) facility that is being proposed for New Barnfield (and with a building waste facility across the footpath with railway access at Welham Green it is a far more likely venue than Harpers Lane, Radlett)...

http://www.brookmans.com/news/april09/new_waste_disposal_site.shtml

... with the EfW facility at Edmonton
http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/incinerator.html

Like most people, I suspect, I don't find incinerators and waste disposal a particularly interesting topic. Unfortunately, people living anywhere near New Barnfield ignore this at their peril.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on December 13, 2010, 11:56:41 am
It's also interesting to compare the artist impression of the incinerator or Energy from Waste (EfW) facility that is being proposed for New Barnfield (and with a building waste facility across the footpath with railway access at Welham Green it is a far more likely venue than Harpers Lane, Radlett)...

http://www.brookmans.com/news/april09/new_waste_disposal_site.shtml

Welcome to the Forum, Trekbat.  Always good to get new viewpoints.

However I am not at all sure about any rail access to New Barnfield.  The nearby line is the East Coast Main Line with no marshalling yards for unloading waste for transporting to New Barnfield.   There were marshalling yards between Marshmoor Lane and the track, north of Dixons Hill Road, but those yards disappeared decades ago.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 13, 2010, 05:33:34 pm
Thank you, Bob.

And apologies to all - it turns out the waste transfer station application was withdrawn.

https://fastweb.welhat.gov.uk/progress.asp?AltRef=S6/2010/0391/CD&ApplicationNumber=&AddressPrefix=&submit2=Go

Although my understanding, from comments on another forum, is that there are still rails dating back to Marshmoor days on the site, which suggests it should be fairly simple to enable rail access again.

Something that is considered to be a positive in the HCC draft Waste Strategy document.

http://consult.hertscc.gov.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/wcsdmp/wcsdm

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on December 14, 2010, 10:53:02 am
Although my understanding, from comments on another forum, is that there are still rails dating back to Marshmoor days on the site, which suggests it should be fairly simple to enable rail access again.

Nice bit of info.

I visited the site when the application was made and it was totally unsuitable for that use. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 16, 2010, 07:03:20 am
I hope you're right - I'm certainly not an expert in such matters to say if it was or wasn't.

However, rail access is not the only consideration in the decision as where the incinerator / EfW plant referred to in Appendix A of the Herts County Council's draft Waste Strategy goes. Currently, New Barnfield or Harper Lane are the only two sites left on the table.

Although it seems rather illogical, proceeding with tactical moves before the strategy is finalised. But then again, so is the apparent (one moment it's on, the next it's off, then it's back on again...) decision to move the Central Resources Library from New Barnfield to a purpose-built facility in WGC in these cash-strapped times. Especially as there is a vacant school on nearby Briars Lane, which would allow HCC to save money by merging it with the small library in Hatfield town centre.

IF it goes ahead (planning documents say it's awaiting consultation) it would also mean WGC has three public libraries (two of which would be large two storey affairs) and Hatfield - home of the University of Hertfordshire, Business Link and bordering Smallford College - having one (with possibly shorter opening hours).


"Opening hours at branch libraries will also face “significant reductions”, which could affect libraries in Brookmans Park, Cuffley, Goffs Oak, Hatfield, Knebworth, Oakmere (Potters Bar), WGC, Welwyn, and Woodhall."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_mobile_library_service_to_be_scrapped_and_library_opening_hours_cut_1_707633

Services moved out of Hatfield site “in anticipation” of incinerator
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/services_moved_out_of_hatfield_site_in_anticipation_of_incinerator_1_57067

The Park Education Support Centre mentioned in the item above may now go to Potters Bar but something is definitely coming to New Barnfield
http://www.hertsdirect.org/havesay/consultation/crtcnslt/consultations/parkrelocation/

CRL's planned new home at Broadwater Road
https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20611
https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20611
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on December 18, 2010, 04:52:44 pm
Interesting....

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_educational_unit_on_the_move_1_756406
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Greybeard on February 22, 2011, 09:24:27 am
Quote
THE date for a decision on where an unwelcome incinerator could be built has been revealed.

The two shortlisted bidders – Veolia ES Aurora, which wants to build at Hatfield’s New Barnfield, and E.ON Energy from Waste AG (EEW), which favours Harper Lane, Radlett – will learn of their fate on April 28.

Once the successful bidder is named by Hertfordshire County Council, the company will start the planning process, including public consultation, for the chosen site.

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/decision_date_revealed_on_hatfield_incinerator_1_808657

If I remember rightly, this is to be financed through PFI. I'm astonished the coalition hasn't put a stop to all PFI schemes.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on April 28, 2011, 11:04:11 pm
So all this recycling will stop the need for waste incinerator near Brookmans Park? Err no!

http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/8999073.Hatfield_chosen_for_incineration_plant/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/8999073.Hatfield_chosen_for_incineration_plant/)

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8999073.Hatfield_chosen_for_incineration_plant/ (http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8999073.Hatfield_chosen_for_incineration_plant/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on April 29, 2011, 12:53:19 pm
A sad result after all the campaigning.  But there may be a faint hope that we are putting so little into our black bins now that Veolia will decide there wont be enough material to justify such a huge investment.  We have a year or two as they have to go through the planning application process and there will be more campaigning against the incinerator - led by our MP, Grant Schapps.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on May 03, 2011, 09:58:33 am
Just in from WHC.

3 May 2011

Incinerator bidder - Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council reaction

Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council is very disappointed by the news that Veolia Environmental Services is Hertfordshire County Council’s preferred bidder for its incinerator project.

The announcement, following a meeting of the county council’s Cabinet, means that New Barnfield, near Hatfield, has been earmarked as the proposed site for the Energy from Waste facility.

But, says Chief Executive Michel Saminaden, this is not the end of the story for the hotly-debated project.

Veolia will now work up its proposals in more detail for submission as a planning application to the county council in its capacity as Waste Planning Authority (WPA). The WPA will prepare a formal report, concluding with a recommendation on whether or not planning permission should be granted. This will be considered by the county council’s Development Control Committee. The county council will need to base its decision on the policies in its development plan. These policies are still subject to public examination.

The borough council will be a consultee in this process, and will continue to vigorously feedback the views of the local community to the county council.

“We are extremely disappointed,” said the Chief Executive. “We disagree with the county council’s decision to proceed with the proposals for a waste incinerator at New Barnfield, because of its location in the town and our real concerns about the potential impact on residents and schoolchildren in the surrounding area.

“We will continue to present these views robustly.”

ENDS/PR/11/050

Notes to editors:

Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council has previously objected to the county council’s Waste Core Strategy and Site Allocations Planning Documents.

The county council’s waste development plan documents, to which Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council has objected, have still to be considered by a planning inspector at an independent inquiry.

The second bidder for the contract, E.ON Energy from Waste AG (EEW), would have sited the incinerator on land owned by Lafarge Aggregates, at Harper Lane near Radlett.

As the Waste Planning Authority, the county council will consider and decide on the planning application. If the application is refused, an appeal and public enquiry could follow.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on May 03, 2011, 12:50:10 pm
Should this thread not read Hatfield waste handling site?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on May 03, 2011, 05:04:03 pm
Should this thread not read Hatfield waste handling site?
Depends which way the wind is blowing! Seriously though the land is right next to Tesco's Distribution Centre and that is part of the Travellers Lane Industrial area, which many years ago was Mowlams. People were proud to call it Welham Green then as it was part of the 'biggest industrial village in the country' and everyone then referred to that area as 'Welham Green'. Now it's a waste incinerator, it's 'Hatfield'. It's akin to the comments re is it 'North Mymms' or is it 'Welham Green' we live, or do we call the area 'North Mymms' or 'Brookmans Park'. Whatever we call it, it is right on our doorstep, Calling it 'Hatfield' may just make people think it is 'nothing to do with us'. I'm sure there will be a lot of views from everyone, let's not get hung up on the name of the topic! I think Epiphany is actually right as now the area is generally referred to Hatfield, but Tesco call their depot 'Welham Green'.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on May 03, 2011, 07:08:07 pm
The postal address for New Barnfield is actually Hatfield but you are right Ferdie, wherever
it is, it is way too close to Hatfield, Welham Green, Brookmans Park and Colney Heath amongst
others.

I received this email from Grant Shapps the other day and would urge anybody concerned
about this to click on the link provided and sign the petition -


Hi

I just wanted to let you know that the Save New Barnfield campaign entered its latest phase on Thursday because utility company Veolia was given the green light by County Hall to push ahead with its application for a Waste Incinerator at New Barnfield.

I'm joining with the Borough Council in our unanimous opposition to any eventual Planning Application, not least because I believe that the traffic generated could become a nightmare for Hatfield residents who live nearby.

Even though today's decision means that there is now only one bidder involved and they have their eyes firmly fixed on New Barnfield, there is still a long way to go. Specifically the incinerator company, who are also the local water utility Veolia, will need to win a Planning Application and I know that many locals will be keen to see this fought all the way.

The proposed New Barnfield location is smack bang next to a school for children with special needs. There are residents who already suffer noise and vibration from a distribution plant that operates nearby. The idea that they could in future be witness to 340,000 tons of waste coming past their doors - a dumper truck every two minutes - is I think quite wrong.

Experience in other parts of the country demonstrates that where Planning Applications are instigated for Waste Management plants in residential areas, there’s always a fighting chance of defeating these plans. So regardless of where you live in Welwyn Hatfield I'd be very grateful if you would add your name to our renewed petition to Save New Barnfield at http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/) and please forward this email to other Welwyn Hatfield residents too.

Best wishes,
Grant.
---

The Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP
Welwyn Hatfield

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on May 03, 2011, 08:02:36 pm
Should this thread not read Hatfield waste handling site?

Changed, thanks for the prompt.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: James Bentall on May 03, 2011, 10:15:00 pm
I received this email from Grant Shapps the other day and would urge anybody concerned
about this to click on the link provided and sign the petition -

Whilst I fully agree that the incinerator would be a bad idea for our local community, I will take this opportunity to remind people that signing up for a petition run by Grant will allow him to start sending you emails/letters/phone calls etc about whatever you please - check the very small print down the bottom of the page which includes

' By providing your contact details you agree to being contacted from time to time by Grant Shapps MP regarding local issues.'

James
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on May 05, 2011, 10:35:51 am
Depends which way the wind is blowing! Seriously though the land is right next to Tesco's Distribution Centre

Tesco's seem to be remarkably quiet yet their depot is downwind of the site.  With all their planning muscle and experience you might have expected Tesco to have said something.  Presumably they reckon any fumes from the chimney etc will be too high to affect their depot.  Another thought is about the extra traffic this incinerator will generate.  How will it affect the stream of lorries servicing their depot?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on May 05, 2011, 11:11:19 am
I have heard that Tesco are considering closing the Welham Green site as it is now too small and cannot be easily extended.

So perhaps they are not bothered anyway.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on May 29, 2011, 09:56:37 pm
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_schools_move_to_cost_hertfordshire_county_council_5m_1_903784 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_schools_move_to_cost_hertfordshire_county_council_5m_1_903784)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on May 31, 2011, 11:30:48 am
I have heard that Tesco are considering closing the Welham Green site as it is now too small and cannot be easily extended

Maybe they could extend into the area earmarked for the incinerator?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Adrienne on June 01, 2011, 05:17:10 pm
Veolia – Who have been selected by the County Council to build a 370,000 tonne incinerator in South Hatfield; are having a consultation on  Wed 8th & Thurs 9th June 2-8pm at Resources Library, New Barnfield Hatfield –AL10 8XG. 'This may be the only opportunity the public could have to meet with Veolia and make their objections face to face to them'
With 100m/328ft high chimney, the “Unseen” emissions will affect a 10-15 mile radius.

There will also be a “Public Demonstration” at the New Barnfield, Resources library at 7pm on Thursday 9th June
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on June 02, 2011, 10:48:09 am
To find the exhibition, go north along the A1000 past GT Towing showroom and carry straight on at the fork i.e. over the flyover.  At the roundabout turn left into the Travellers Lane industrial estate where Mitsubishi and Tesco are.  Then take the first right after the school.  The Resource Centre is on your right.   

The exhibition is open 2pm to 8pm on Wed 8th and Thursday 9th June.   Anyone who is unable to get to the exhibition can have a look at www.veolia.co.uk/hertfordshire (http://www.veolia.co.uk/hertfordshire)
Veolia also have a dedicated Freephone information line on 0800 055 6515

The building is the central reserve for Herts Libraries.  If you hold a Library Card you can borrow books on a fantastic range of topics.  Have a look round while you are there.  I found the staff to be very helpful.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Adrienne on June 03, 2011, 01:22:17 pm
Interesting on what Veolia - the proposed incinerator company - has to say in respect of the effects the plant has - extracts taken from their 2010 Manifest attached!!

Adrienne Nix
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 06, 2011, 09:13:28 am
The building is the central reserve for Herts Libraries.  If you hold a Library Card you can borrow books on a fantastic range of topics.  Have a look round while you are there.  I found the staff to be very helpful.

Unfortunately, not for much longer.

As part of the site clearance the library is going. The reference section and business services to WGC, and the reserve collection into a warehouse some where.

Originally, HCC planned to move it to a purpose-built facility in WGC (with WHBC's blessing).

Odd decision, given that WGC already has two libraries and Hatfield is the home of the Uni and BusinessLink.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 06, 2011, 10:11:55 am
Given that a waste incinerator is bound to raise a big stink (feel free to visit the Edmonton incinerator if you think I'm joking or exaggerating), I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussions on the subject in this forum. Particularly as the worse impact on property prices will be on those within a 0.4 - 1.6 km radius of the incinerator [according to a Virginia Water's study for the Newhaven incinerator - http://www.virginiawater.co.uk/protect/images/economic_impact.pdf (http://www.virginiawater.co.uk/protect/images/economic_impact.pdf)  (Page 30)].

Also I wouldn't necessarily count on it being blocked at the planning stage - Hertfordshire County Council is bending over backwards to see that doesn't happen. Staggeringly even to the extent of forking out around £4m to temporarily move Southfield School - a recently built special needs facility, which they openly acknowledge is  a waste of taxpayers' money.

Hertfordshire County Council's Education and Skills Cabinet meeting minutes (14:00 hours, 16 May 2011)
http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/cabinet/15931002/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/cabinet/15931002/)

Agenda Item 6 - Implication for Southfields Special Needs School

3.1 The recommendation being made to the Panel is that it recommend to Cabinet:-

“1.    That Cabinet:-

(i)   agrees that Veolia ES Aurora Limited be advised carefully to take into account the presence of Southfield School in finalising its Scheme and to seek to mitigate any impacts on the school so that temporary relocation is not necessary; however

(ii)    authorises a 6 week public consultation on a proposal to provide temporary school premises on a site at Old Rectory Drive, Hatfield; and

(iii)   authorises the making of an application for temporary planning permission for the construction and use of a temporary school at the Land at Old Rectory Drive, Hatfield.

2.   That a further report be brought to Cabinet in due course.”


6.1  The current estimate of costs is a top limit of £3.9m, with a residual value of £1.0m after the proposed three year occupation.  This represents poor value for money for a temporary relocation of a school. It is only being considered in the context of the bigger financial risk of preventing the granting of planning permission for the waste facility.* The preferred option would be for the temporary relocation to not be required as a result of careful consideration by Veolia of design and construction plans.

Agenda Item 7 - Policy towards the relocation of Central Library Services [Central Resource Library]

2.1   The New Barnfield site in Hatfield has been proposed as the reference site for the County Council’s Waste Procurement Project.  On 28 October 2008, Cabinet authorised commencement of a project to relocate the Central Library Services away from the New Barnfield Centre... 

2.2   By the spring of 2010 the relocation planning work had achieved the acquisition of a site at Broadwater Road, Welwyn Garden City, to enable the provision of a new purpose built facility for the Central Library Services (CLS).

2.11   The various options have been considered and it has been concluded that the most efficient and cost effective solution would be to:

(i)   merge Central Resources Library with the existing Welwyn Garden City branch library at Campus West in order to provide a central and public presence for the service;

(ii)   lease or purchase an existing storage/distribution building from a third party in the open market, rather than build from new at Broadwater Road.


[*bold text my emphasis]
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 07, 2011, 06:56:13 am
A number of replies to this thread began to focus on local library services. In an effort to keep this thread focused on the incinerator I have split the topic, started a new thread about local library services (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php/topic,3162.0.html) and merged the contributions.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on June 07, 2011, 08:43:16 am
what will happen to the school there?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 07, 2011, 10:55:36 am

Also I wouldn't necessarily count on it being blocked at the planning stage - Hertfordshire County Council is bending over backwards to see that doesn't happen.


So, is the general feeling that this is a done deal and nothing can stop it?

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mermaid on June 07, 2011, 11:51:06 am
So, is the general feeling that this is a done deal and nothing can stop it?

1)     I definitely get the impression that this is a 'done deal', but why it seems to have been so actively courted by Welhat and Herts County is a mystery  >:(

2)    Whether anything can be done to stop it, is what many of us want to know! Our local MP Grant Shapps has been leading a campaign against the incinerator, but how well that is working, I'm not sure?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 07, 2011, 02:44:57 pm
1)     I definitely get the impression that this is a 'done deal', but why it seems to have been so actively courted by Welhat and Herts County is a mystery

Not really, HCC see the site as perfect to take other counties' waste (mainly London's), and charge them for the privilege. While WHBC has been favouring WGC interests over Hatfield's for decades (although they may find this one comes back to haunt them).

Between them I get the impression that they are using Hatfield as a sinkhole and dumping ground to be exploited to destruction.

They get money from central government for students (to make up for an expected shortfall in Council Tax) and for housing refugees. Plus, funds from other councils to house their excess / unwanted, which they then lavish on WGC projects. Thanks to student blight and the deteriorating town centre, families have been moving out of Hatfield (even without an apparent deliberate population shift engineered by WHBC) in droves, which can only make things easier for them. It also means opposition to the incinerator from within Hatfield is likely to be muted.

The figures seem to support this view:

Between 2003-09 WHBC Capital Commitments (basically large spending projects mentioned in their accounts) show over £7.1m spent on improvements in WGC with a paltry £0.28m spent on Hatfield. Add over £1 million given in various forms to Gosling Sports Park and that becomes over £8.1m vs. £0.28m.

According to WHBC figures, between 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2011 alone there were 93 transfers of Hatfield council tenant households to Welwyn Garden City accommodation. The reason for this relocation is not clear although WHBC did refuse to provide figures on the number of refugees housed in Hatfield and in WGC.

According to WHBC figures, as of 9 May 2011, there are 248 licensed Houses in Multiple Occupancy (HMOs) in WHBC. These are mainly used by students and migrant workers ie. short term residents with no interest in the area. Of this total 246 are in Hatfield. However, this is not a reflection of the true figures as only 3 storey properties and those declaring 5 or more tennants require licensing, and there's no accounting for illegal sub-lets or where a house is officially let by three individuals who then partner up or have friends staying overnight on a regular basis.


2)    Whether anything can be done to stop it, is what many of us want to know! Our local MP Grant Shapps has been leading a campaign against the incinerator, but how well that is working, I'm not sure?

We have a Con-Dem govt. A Conservative MP (and frontbencher). A Conservative-controlled County Council. A Conservative-controlled Borough Council (which is supposed to have been involved in submitting the nominations for waste sites for HCC's Waste Strategy - 3 out of the 4 WHBC sites were in Hatfield). And a Conservative-controlled Hatfield Town Council (which barely mentions the incinerator).

There's a lot of words spoken against in public but the HCC incinerator vote was held in secret.

Personally, I can't see why our MP (a prominent member of the party) cannot fail to stop this rubbish idea - if he really wanted to.

I fear the only way to stop this from proceeding is a series of legal challenges. However, the opposition has money to burn - in order to get their hands on millions in taxpayers' funds (it's a 25-year contract, and I wonder if it includes who pays for cleaning up the site afterwards?).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on June 07, 2011, 05:31:50 pm
what will happen to the school there?

Please refer to earlier reply #39
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Adrienne on June 07, 2011, 10:05:01 pm
"People power" is the only way of stopping the incinerator being built.  If enough people turn up at the exhibition & demonstration on Thursday 9th, also at the consultation stage and put in objections at  planning application stage, I believe we can do it (Remember the poll tax!! that was overturned – even after it became law!!!)  So everyone pass the word around and make your objections know by turning up this Thursday at 7pm.  After all we have nothing to lose and everything to gain at this stage.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 08, 2011, 07:51:21 am
I have concerns regarding this proposal, but would like to know what alternatives our Council has considered and what 'people power' can suggest as an alternative. If this non recyclable waste (and there will always be some, irrespective of recycling rates) cannot be incinerated, what do we do with it? Also, crucially, where should this 'storage' be? It is fine that people protest (long may democracy survive) and I will certainly be visiting the Exhibition, but 'just saying "no"' is not a complete answer.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 08, 2011, 09:10:03 am
The problem is a failure by successive UK governments (Labour and Conservative) to tackle the huge amount of resources devoted to unnecessary and non-recyclable packaging.

Advanced western democracies, like Germany, put measures in place over a decade ago (like enabling shoppers to leave the exterior packaging at the supermarket for them to dispose, which made them put pressure on suppliers).

An EU threat to impose fines resulted in a stampede by councils across the UK to cut back on landfill as a method of disposal, and many have looked at incineration as a local solution to what is a national problem.

While it is true to say that we're unlikely to be 100% efficient (very few things are), we certainly should be able to achieve a figure in the high 90s. This would leave a very small amount to be disposed through landfill or existing incinerators.

How do we achieve this? Through reuse, reduction and recycling.

The bulk of UK households are supplied by a handful of national and international supermarket chains and global conglomerates, like Unilver and P&G. Targetting these companies alone can lead to massive reductions. For example, does meat really need to be packed in plastic trays? Do cucumbers really need to be individually wrapped in polythene?

Through punitive taxation and tax incentives the government can bring about changes - if they wanted to. And if they didn't councils could act in union to make them - rather than reduce the value of people's homes, threaten their health, and generally blight their lives and neighbourhoods.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on June 08, 2011, 11:23:26 am
[I definitely get the impression that this is a 'done deal', but why it seems to have been so actively courted by Welhat and Herts County is a mystery  >:(

Welwyn Hatfield Council is against this incinerator.  If you search www.welhat.gov.uk (http://www.welhat.gov.uk) for references to 'incinerator' you will find this

' The borough council will be a consultee in this process, and will continue to vigorously feedback the views of the local community to the county council.

"We are extremely disappointed," said the Chief Executive. "We disagree with the county council's decision to proceed with the proposals for a waste incinerator at New Barnfield, because of its location in the town and our real concerns about the potential impact on residents and schoolchildren in the surrounding area.

"We will continue to present these views robustly."


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Adrienne on June 08, 2011, 05:18:57 pm
HAI - Hatfield against Incineration - have put together an alternative solution. http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/the_alternative.html (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/the_alternative.html)   In respect of higher charges on landfill, this applies to brown bin waste such as food and garden waste which is already been recycled for some time.
 San Francisco are aiming for "Zero Waste" by 2020 http://www.sfenvironment.org/our_programs/overview.html?ssi=3 (http://www.sfenvironment.org/our_programs/overview.html?ssi=3)
Dr Paul Connett, Professor of Chemistry, St Lawrence University, New York, gave a presentation recently in Hatfield on the matter of Zero Waste - the presentation will be on our website shortly
At the moment the US needs 4.5 planets to sustain its present use of resource and the UK needs 2 planets.  The reality is that we have to change our attitude to waste but incineration is certainly not the answer both for ourselves and our grandchildren.  Herts County Council just could not be bothered looking at the alternatives as it means making people take responsibility and of course might loose votes!! They want a quick fix which in the long term is environmentally damaging, will destroy the local community and and our virgin resources.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 08, 2011, 08:06:35 pm
Veolia's exhibition is on today and tomorrow at the New Barnfield site (but not in the library - go straight on from the entrance, and it'll be on your right).

Articles in this thread on the Welwyn Hatfield Forum may help people understand the issues (particularly, Reply #1, Reply #2):
http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,5982.0.html (http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,5982.0.html)

And recognise spin when they see it. For example, their artist's impression show a nice, gleaming bowl-like structure - funnily enough even though it's set against a autumn / winter background there's no plume visible from the stack (even if it is just water vapour as claimed). In reality, against a dark sky or in cold conditions the plume is clearly visible from a great distance - as pictures of the Edmonton incinerator show: http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/n18incinpix.html (http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/n18incinpix.html)

They also say any smell will be contained within the dome - which I doubt (HCC better get guarantees BEFORE signing any contracts).

They also have a leaflet from the Environment Agency, however Dr van Steenis is less than complimentary about them and states they DON'T monitor the most dangerous emissions. The official record seems to back him up - http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmenvfru/780/780we14.htm (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmenvfru/780/780we14.htm)

In any case, how reliable are regulators' assurances? As the people of Japan are finding out to their cost - and possibly ours as well, as events are still unfolding.

Fukushima Nuclear Accident Update Log
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html (http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html)

8 June 2011 - Fukushima 'lessons' may take 10 years to learn
"Earlier this week, Japan's nuclear regulator issued a report admitting that the country had been ill-prepared for an accident as serious as the one at Fukushima Daiichi.
It also doubled estimates of the amount of radiation released following the 11 March tsunami."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13699055 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13699055)

And we've already been lied to once already:

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_it_could_be_bigger_than_first_feared_1_34445 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_it_could_be_bigger_than_first_feared_1_34445)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 09, 2011, 10:54:07 am
Main anti-incineration demonstration today at 19:00 (7pm) outside the Veolia exhibition at the Training Centre, New Barnfield (go straight ahead from the site entrance and it will be on your right).

Information on this and other activities can be found on Hatfield Against Incineration websites:

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 09, 2011, 01:37:48 pm
If anyone is on Twitter and wants to draw attention to the demonstration they may want to retweet some of the comments being made.  I have just set up a Storify site for the Brookmans Park Newsletter (http://storify.com/bpnewsletter/) where this was posted and now embedded here. Just click on the retweet button alongside the tweet below - or any of the news assets you want to share. You can also click on the embed button below to embed the story in your own blog or forum.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on June 09, 2011, 02:14:02 pm
Let me say straight out that I am totally against an incinerator at New Barnfield.

What is not helpful is a comparison with the effects following a huge earthquake at Japan since  New Barnfield is not in an earthquake zone nor is it next to the coast.  Japan has lots of other nuclear power stations which continue to operate safely as far as we know.  This was a one-off.  Equally it does not help to talk about the smell at the Edmonton incinerator if it has composting on the same site.   Chalk and cheese.

Does anyone know how old the Edmonton incinerator is?  No doubt the technology has improved over the years and it might be an obsolete design.  I know someone who has visited incinerators in Germany and he said you would not know what went on inside apart from the type of vehicles going in and out.  Another person who has lived in Germany tells me incinerators cause no problem there.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: PS on June 09, 2011, 02:30:34 pm
Maybe technology has improved - but the mere perception of the word "incinerator" will no doubt have a negative influence on nearby property prices.

Good luck at the Demo - the local voices MUST be heard !!!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sprint on June 09, 2011, 02:37:01 pm
Quote
Does anyone know how old the Edmonton incinerator is?

I'm sure it was there when I used to live in Tottenham in 1988.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 09, 2011, 02:52:56 pm
What is not helpful is a comparison with the effects following a huge earthquake at Japan since  New Barnfield is not in an earthquake zone nor is it next to the coast.  Japan has lots of other nuclear power stations which continue to operate safely as far as we know.  This was a one-off.  Equally it does not help to talk about the smell at the Edmonton incinerator if it has composting on the same site.   Chalk and cheese.

Does anyone know how old the Edmonton incinerator is?  No doubt the technology has improved over the years and it might be an obsolete design.  I know someone who has visited incinerators in Germany and he said you would not know what went on inside apart from the type of vehicles going in and out.  Another person who has lived in Germany tells me incinerators cause no problem there.

The point about Japan is that government / regulator assurances of how safe a facility is cannot be accepted at face value (and applying your own logic to your German incinerator visitor: do you know whether French-owned Veolia will be using the same systems here? Plus, unlike Britain, Germany has greatly reduced the amount it incinerates at source).

It also highlights the extent of the impact should something go wrong (Murphy's Law: "If something can go wrong it will").

As for one-offs, there have been a number: Seveso, Bhopal, Chernobyl...with catastrophic and expensive consequences.

And there have been a number of incidents with incinerators operating in this country:  http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/incin-murphys.html (http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/incin-murphys.html)

It also worth remembering the decades of arguments and counter arguments against smoking (where it was eventually proved that major corporations deliberately suppressed research that proved smoking was harmful).

As many people now using the fortnightly bin collection will have noticed - garbage smells. And that's before it's been collected and transported.

I would be surprised if it's all immediately incinerated as well. Simple logic would suggest that there would be a stockpile as deliveries may not be operated 24/7 but I suspect the plant will be.

An incinerator is not something we need to have. There are other options as has been shown before.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on June 09, 2011, 07:48:10 pm
Just come back from the demo - very good turnout, I thought.  Grant Schapps spoke and emphasised that we need a fighting fund.  He's aiming to start with £50,000 and is already half way.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on June 09, 2011, 08:09:51 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_PjUFWLns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_PjUFWLns)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on June 09, 2011, 08:17:54 pm
on a more serious note good luck to all-i dont want this on my door step

(i did throw out a black bag this morning though so guess that makes me a hypocrite!! will address that issue asap)

I wanted to sign the petition on the GS website but looks like doing that will mean im on the mailing list for loads of other stuff im not interested in. Can that policy be changed as im sure its not just me whos bothered about that?


I dont want loads of cr£p through my door that may have to go off to be incinerated..LOL....bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Tubbs on June 09, 2011, 08:19:34 pm
Veolia Exhibition - Proposed Waste Incinerator at New Barnfield: My Initial Reaction

I’ve just visited (Thurs 9th June) the Veolia exhibition at New Barnfield for the proposed incinerator. These are my initial reactions / thoughts. I am trying to be objective; I recognise that one can’t reasonably expect all the advantages (such as they are…) of modern life without accepting or at least recognising that these don’t come without some disadvantages.  It would be so easy to fall into the trap of being a NIMBY; I know that could be so easy as I live a ‘comfortable-ish’ distance away in Brookmans Park; would I feel the same if I lived a close to the site as those in south Hatfield?

Here are, in no particular order, my thoughts and reactions. I haven’t researched the issues (yet) so I’d be relaxed if I’m wrong, whether in the pro or the anti-direction. If I’ve these initial reactions, quite likely so have others, and so they are valid thoughts.

The Veolia exhibition looks quite smart. I display of stands, with pictures, diagrams and explanatory text. And some nice people from Veolia and Hertfordshire Council to answer questions.

But get a bit beyond this, and it is disappointing, at the very least. Work out the questions you, as a visitor, may have. Put aside emotion (it doesn’t help); try to be objective. Read between these displays, put them together. Then one starts to see the gaps; whether Veolia (and Hertfordshire Council) are conscious of it (and I came away thinking they are not) the exhibition is fairly glib; that your valid (unemotional) questions aren’t adequately addressed or sometimes not even recognised. They seem to be more concerned with their own displays than acknowledging the questions, their validity, or backing up the statements on their own displays.

The artists impression of the building: it looks reasonably nice. A silvery dome and tall slender chimneys. On a separate display, we’re informed that the chimneys are ‘provisionally 65 metres high‘. ‘How high will they be end up?’ I asked a Veolia rep. Answer: Thtr depends on tenh Environment Agency’. Fair enough; but that doesn’t answer my question, so I ask again. I think he said 65 – 75 metres (something like that). Are they shown to correct scale size on the visualisation? Yes, I was told.

I am sceptical that the visualisation is a really true impression of what the ‘dome’ (45 metres high, I heard) and the chimneys will look like in reality (even though the building seems externally nicely designed).

Across the other side of the hall another display shows a ‘process’ flow diagram and ‘energy / emissions’ balance of the facility. It tells us that the waste incineration will generate 47 Megawatts of electricity. If we are going to incinerate waste, then turning it into electricity is clearly a very good thing (wherever the site is).

But electricity generation (at power stations or waste plants) need electric cables to carry it away; almost always by pylons, maybe 50 or 60 metres tall, spaced out every few hundred yards. Back to the visualisation: where are these cables and pylons? I ask the Veolia man; he agrees they aren’t shown. He half agrees that their omission could be considered misleading, but that ‘The power lines will be the responsibility of the power utility, not Veolia’ he helpfully offers.

The cables will have to connect to the National Grid, and as they’ll probably be at a very high voltage I reckon they will need tall pylons, all they way over the A1 to wherever they connect. The Veolia man tells me that under the law the power company will have the right to place their pylons on the land, even if it’s private land (eg farms), it’s just a matter of the agreeing the land rent with the landowner. I suggest the pylons and cables (and transformers) will not look nice. He suggests the cables could be underground (all the way to the National Grid….?!), but again he says ‘it’s a matter for the power company’.

[An engineering friend told me the underground duct for the cables would need to be about 6 feet wide by 3 feet deep; all the way to the Grid; who would pay for this unless forced to?].

So does the visualisation truly reflect the facility, when Veolia excludes the power pylons..?

I ask about the environmental impact of various aspects: emissions, noise, vehicles. Preliminary assessments have been carried out, full assessments are being carried out, I was told. I asked why they could not at least been able to show/display, based on their experience here and elsewhere, what they reasonably expected the impacts to be. This would at least address these issues in a way that people could feel comfortable with.

The choice of the site:
As best as I could make out (and I stand to be corrected if wrong), Veolia had no real choice other than New Barnfield. If the contractor selection was a ‘level playing field’ I wonder if the same could be said about the choice of site. The whole facility is to be financed by PFI. This is itself an incredibly expensive kind of ‘hire purchase’ scheme used by government (and notoriously and secretively by the last Labour Party lot) with resulting massive debts for generations to come. The Treasury would only give Hertfordshire Council the ‘PFI credits’ it needed for the project if the ‘reference scheme’ was based on land the Council owned. It seems only New Barnfield met this. If Veolia or its competitors wanted to use a different site they theoretically could, but would have to buy that land or rent it which of course would be market price; and (I guess) they’d have to start the environmental impact process from scratch. Is Veolia paying the market price for the New Barnfield site? I was told (by Veolia) that, for a competitor who made the short list, proposing another site made a difference of 4% on his price. That’s a big difference.

So, is the main / over-riding reason New Barnfield has been selected due to commercial factors, and indirectly due to HM Treasury…?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on June 09, 2011, 09:35:02 pm
Tubbs makes very reasoned points.  I too went to the demonstration and I am livid at the joint marketing exercise by Veolia/Herts County Council and that my Council tax is being used in this way.

It is worth noting that many people in Herts County Council (HCC)  still don't realise the strength of feeling locally.   I have heard it said on more than one occasion that HCC are surprised that local opposition to the plans is so muted.  Can I suggest if haven't done so already you complain to your local county councillor, members of the relevant Council committee and the relevant officers of HCC.   HCC need to understand that local people do not want this project.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 09, 2011, 11:38:16 pm
Given that this whole incinerator issue blew up because of the threat of EU penalties on landfill, the following BBC news item takes on a whole new significance.

"The UK is set to miss EU targets on air quality, government documents say - which may mean a legal row just before the London Olympic Games.

The targets should be met by 2015.

But the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) has admitted many cities will not meet them before 2020, while meeting London's targets could be as late as 2025.

If the European Commission is not satisfied by these plans, it could launch infringement action next year."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13714931 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13714931)

chicken legs,

I hear (informally) that the £20k the Hatfield Town Council Mayor wanted to spend on celebrating Hatfield House's 400th anniversary will now be donated towards a fighting fund (and that HTC will be requesting WHBC to at least match it). I wonder if this figures in Grant's £25k?

BrookyP,

If you don't want to sign Grant's petition other options include:

Write or email directly to councillors
http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/adresses.html (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/adresses.html)

Or even start your own

HCC online petitions
https://consult.hertsdirect.org/ (https://consult.hertsdirect.org/)

Tubbs,

Very good point about the apparent lack of pylons in the visuals - although in reality there already are some very close to the site. Also, apparently one of the reasons for wanting to site this monstrosity so close to a built up area instead of out-of-sight, out-of-mind is because the heat byproduct needs to be close to the end user (homes and industries). Which also raises questions as to how it is going to be transmitted from the site - over or underground piping presumably.

tumbliboo,

Today was the first time I've seen a really good turnout (although, to be fair, I haven't been for all the meetings). Like HCC, I've been surprised at how muted the response has been. But then again, most of the campaigning has been done by the HAI group. It has been interesting and disappointing to see how little communicating and mobilising has been done by key individuals and civic institutions (although some politicos seem quick to make speeches or pose for the photo ops). Part of the problem has been the way Hatfield has been in apparently managed decline (more like freefall) as mentioned in Reply#50.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 10, 2011, 09:19:10 am
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: waterendcafe1 on June 10, 2011, 09:22:07 am
I think that we all have two choices in that patch of land... 1) Either and incinerator whos smoke will be put through filters, lorrys going in and out. I am aware there is a school near or a huge great big hole full of rubbish with birds flying around, bigger lorries, smell.
I am not totally agreeing with an incinerator but i think it is a lot better than having a view of a huge holey rubbish tip.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Tubbs on June 10, 2011, 03:32:13 pm
The Incinerator and the CHP Myth

Sorry to upset preconceived notions, but the incinerator plant will generate electricity only. It will not be ‘a CHP plant (combined heat and power). It never was, isn’t planned to be and 99% certain never will be. In fact (and although I haven’t checked back thru’ the history), even the county council, local councils and some professionals who should know better have referred to it as a ‘CHP plant’. So it is quite understandable that, almost since the beginning of the incinerator saga, many ordinary people, it seems, have been under this misapprehension.

Forgive me for going back to basics: The waste will be sorted; the incombustibles removed. Then, just like in a power station (that would use coal or oil), the combustible bits burnt in boiler(s) to make steam; the steam sent to turbines connected to electrical generators. The steam that’s gone through the turbines is now very low temperature, but has to cooled (condensed) to turn it back to water, so that it can be put back into the boiler and the cycle repeated. Now, this cooling is where ‘cooling towers’ come into it – to get rid of this heat! (See below..)

In a CHP plant the electricity output is lower so that the hot (waste) water can be hot enough to use for heating. That will not be the case at New Barnfield. If it were intended to use ‘CHP’ where would the heat be used? It could only be used to heat houses or factories. All the houses in the area already have heating, so it would actually cost fantastic sums of money, than it would be worth (plus disruption) to put in pipes to the houses, and remove the boilers (assuming the house owners would allow it – which I don’t think they would!). So, the New Barnfield plant would maximise electricity, as the heat cannot be used. (Not unless a nice big swimming pool were built!).

Back to the ‘cooling towers’: There has to be a way of getting rid of this heat. My engineering friend tells me they won’t be like the big concrete ones you see at power stations (these aren’t allowed these days). Very approximately, they will probably have to use about twenty cooling units (for the technically minded..!). These are basically big metal boxes with fans in them. Depending on the type, these could each be 30 feet long by 15 feet wide by 30 feet high, and they have to have air inlets and outlets, covering a large area in aggregate.

Are these accommodated in the big dome? Or are they outside? And in either case, were they mentioned at the exhibition…? I contend that, even if they are inside the dome 9and thus are out of sight), the fact that they haven’t even been mentioned hardly adds to the credibility of Veolia or the Council. But, as per my last post, I’d be happy to be proven wrong.

Ps: This post is not to try and ‘frighten’ or ‘upset’ people. But if the community wishes to fight this proposal, with credibility, it should surely be made conversant with at least the basic physics and technical facts.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 10, 2011, 03:59:34 pm
Thanks for clarifying that.

I was told that the reason it had to be near a built up area - as opposed to a less obtrusive and disruptive site, like Cole Green where there used to be a household recycling facility and an existing building materials recycling facility -  was because it was a combined heat and power facility. All of which makes their decision to use this site to predictable outcry (and expense to local authorities dealing with inevitable correspondence, petitions, protests and legal action) all the more baffling.

PS
Personally, I rather not have anything to do with incinerators or their workings - when I have far more appealing things to do. But, given the local authorities appear hellbent on foisting the wretched thing on us, needs must.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 10, 2011, 04:49:33 pm
I am pleased at some very informed comments on this forum, but I am still to be convinced either way. It seems we are all very good at saying "no" to everything in this area, - no to Vet College Expansion, no to new houses, - no to Tesco's, no to parking restrictions, no to flats, no to car parking charges, the list seems at times baffling. In so many cases, viable alternatives are not considered or suggested. In reality it is wonderful to have aspirations of zero waste, but even countries and towns around the World that have had this mission for years they are still many years away from this goal, if ever. In the meantime we see more houses being built, (The Fryth at Welwyn, approx 200 houses) just where are the resources coming from? Water, sewage disposal, infrastructure, schooling and what to do with the rubbish? (For example sewage, huge opposition to new sewage treatment solutions proposed by Thames Water in London). Also, employment, I understand Yodel (formerly DHL Hatfield) are making workers redundant, who knows what will happen with T Mobile/Orange also in Hatfield. The fact is we are a hugely overpopulated area of the world and need smart, effective solutions to challenges like waste disposal. The proposed development will mean investment and jobs, and this is a solution, ....and even as I say this I can hear a chorus of people crying out and wailing that we will all be poisoned by noxious fumes or run over by lorries thundering along local roads. The facts are we are already subject to these pollutants anyway. As I say I have yet to be convinced either way and nobody wants to be returned to the deadly smogs of yesteryear and the factories that churned out toxic acrid smoke from the time of industrial revolution. Mankind survived and has come a long way since those days and huge technological advances have been made. As 'Waterend Cafe' says, do we want a landfill tip there instead? Ideally, we want to recycle more and produce less waste, (it is proposed the new facility will include some recycling anyway, items that Joe Public just chucks out anyway as they can't be bothered to recycle it). In reality a large percentage of the population don't care and don't recycle. They still waste water, waste food, buy products from non sustainable sources, fly to exotic holiday destinations, drive rather than walk/cycle/take public transport, etc, etc. In time attitudes may change - I hope they do. The crisis on landfill is here now, what are we going to do about it? At the risk of coming across too evangelical, "Let Those Who Have no Sin, Cast the First Stone"
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on June 10, 2011, 06:24:20 pm


Today was the first time I've seen a really good turnout (although, to be fair, I haven't been for all the meetings). Like HCC, I've been surprised at how muted the response has been. But then again, most of the campaigning has been done by the HAI group. It has been interesting and disappointing to see how little communicating and mobilising has been done by key individuals and civic institutions (although some politicos seem quick to make speeches or pose for the photo ops). Part of the problem has been the way Hatfield has been in apparently managed decline (more like freefall) as mentioned in Reply#50.

I, too, have been disappointed at the lack of support for HAI from our local County and Borough Councillors. and maybe from BP residents.  BP isn't very far away and the A1000 is bound to suffer an increase in HGVs.  I've been twice to the County Hall protests and the attendance was very poor.  If it wasn't for Cathy Roe and her small HAI team there may well  have been no sign of any objection.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 10, 2011, 10:13:16 pm
While there are exaggerated claims and many unknowns (some possibly unquantifiable), I very much doubt whether the benefits will outweigh the negative impact, at least for people in the local area. For example, the very prospect of this incinerator or EfW (Energy from Waste) plant is likely to have a negative impact on property prices. As for Hatfield job losses, I suspect that will increase. For example, it's doubtful whether Mitsubishi will want to stay put or anyone else want to move in should they move out.

There are long planned and much talked about redevelopment projects for Hatfield town centre and the Hilltop area. Again, the presence of an incinerator is not likely to be a selling point to attract the sort of businesses and professionals that would benefit the town (if anything, established families may move out). So, if they can't attract them then in all probability the new houses and flats will end up as student digs or used to house social needs cases. This will only reinforce the negative stereotypes of Hatfield and further its decline. Something that will do nothing to improve the safety and security of neighbouring affluent areas.

There is no reason why the New Barnfield site should be used for landfill.

Logically, such a facility for Hertfordshire should be located in the centre of the county to reduce road journeys (of course, if they're planning to take London waste as an income generating scheme it changes the equation).

I agree that too many people are part of the problem rather than helping with the solution. Again, if the amount of waste is reduced at source it reduces the need for people to tidy up.

It would be interesting to know the comparative statistics of the amount of waste per person per year today and in say the early Seventies. Much of what we throw out as waste today is an unnecessary waste.

A profligacy that has some bearing on where we are today - broke.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 12, 2011, 11:32:16 am
I get the impression people may have missed out on some of the developments so here are a few old and new news snippets:

22 April 2011: "Currently the council is attempting to vary the covenant to allow the scheme to proceed."

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/covenant_on_land_at_hatfield_s_new_barnfield_will_not_stop_incinerator_1_873437 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/covenant_on_land_at_hatfield_s_new_barnfield_will_not_stop_incinerator_1_873437)


28 April 2011: "Council papers also confirm that the authority has already spent more than £4.4million on a lengthy procurement and consultation process, adding that the council’s reputation would be damaged if the applications were rejected."

[also claims of potential savings for HCC and counterclaims regarding PFI]

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8999073.Hatfield_chosen_for_incineration_plant/ (http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8999073.Hatfield_chosen_for_incineration_plant/)


11 June 2011: "Figures from the Office of National Statistics show a jump in infant deaths in Great Lever - where the Raikes Lane waste plant incinerator is based. The Royal Bolton Hospital is also on the edge of the ward boundary.

The Health Protection Agency (HPA) does not believe incinerators cause “significant risk”, but is now looking to reassure the public with a special study."

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/districtnews/9079433.Waste_incinerators_inquiry_into_link_with_infant_deaths/ (http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/districtnews/9079433.Waste_incinerators_inquiry_into_link_with_infant_deaths/)


If incinerators are as safe as they claim they are, why does the HPA feel the need to conduct a 'special study'?

It seems their 'evidence base' for pronouncing that there is nothing to fear has a few holes in it.

Exactly how much 'insignificant' risk parents are willing to subject their children to presumably depends on how much they're willing to gamble with their own health and that of their offspring.

Or they could say no thank you to their incinerator and make sure it never gets built.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 13, 2011, 07:19:51 am
What's the next step in the campaign follow last week's demo?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on June 13, 2011, 02:25:31 pm
What's the next step in the campaign follow last week's demo?

Too early to say any more than that various parties have now met and agreed on a course of action.  To recycle an old phrase - Watch this space
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 13, 2011, 03:27:58 pm
various parties have now met and agreed on a course of action.

Hi Bob, is the agreed course of action known outside of the 'various parties' and, if so, can it be shared in this forum?

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on June 13, 2011, 04:58:28 pm
I think that we all have two choices in that patch of land... 1) Either and incinerator whos smoke will be put through filters, lorrys going in and out. I am aware there is a school near or a huge great big hole full of rubbish with birds flying around, bigger lorries, smell.
I am not totally agreeing with an incinerator but i think it is a lot better than having a view of a huge holey rubbish tip.


Yes, the smoke is filtered but if you do your research you will find that the 1% of toxic material that is too fine to be filtered (nano-particles) is the most likely to damage health.  It is also unregulated.  Infant mortality rates around these facilities appear to be 2-3 times that of the national average, with convincing figures showing increases in respiratory and neurological disorders.  Since I live within a quarter mile of the proposed site I would, if given the choice, actually prefer a stinking hole in the ground for the sake of my children's health.  I'm currently considering my options regarding moving from the area if it goes ahead, I cannot contemplate living so close to such a facility, however well filtered Veolia claims its emissions are (no doubt their employees all live a safe distance from New Barnfield so their children's lungs will no be affected).  In the meantime I will lie down in front of the bulldozers when they move in if I have to, this is wrong, wrong, wrong, on all levels.  The only winners are those who stand to profit! http://www.ecoivy.org/index.php/media/53-videos/83-dr-paul-connetts-incineration-presentation (http://www.ecoivy.org/index.php/media/53-videos/83-dr-paul-connetts-incineration-presentation)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 13, 2011, 05:58:31 pm
Next steps

I haven't heard anything yet. Information is usually posted on the Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) website

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)

and emailed to people who have signed up to be on the mailing list (either by email or giving their details at HAI meetings).

People interested in joining please email your name, address and telephone number to: info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk


New Barnfield as a landfill site
It is extremely unlikely that New Barnfield will be used for landfill - there's no hole or old quarry to fill. It's on a hill so any contaminants would leach out or be washed down into surrounding streams and watercourses.


Untold story
I'm also convinced there's an aspect to this site that has yet to be revealed by our apparently Machiavellian County Council (not that I'm convinced that the other local councils involved are fully committed to fighting this - regardless of any statements to the contrary. If they were, they'd be the ones telling people about this).

According to the HCC Waste Strategy consultation document:

2 Spatial Vision, Objectives and Strategic Issues;

2.3 Strategic Objectives

Table 3, Point 4: "To facilitate a shift away from road transport to water and rail transport as the principal means of transporting waste;"

Somewhere along the line they clearly intend to use rail transport (both the finalists, Harpers Lane and New Barnfield, are close to rail lines). Quite possibly to be presented as a fait accompli once the plant is up and running (and Herts taxpayers are irrevocably locked into a 25-year contract).

While I'm not a 100% sure what they mean in Point 7 ("To work with all neighbouring waste authorities to manage the equivalent of the county’s own waste arisings."), it sounds to me like they intend to take a volume of waste equivalent to Hertfordshire's from other areas ie. double the amount of waste that it needs to handle.

As with anything, best do your own research and make up your own mind.

http://hertscc-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/wcsdmp/wcsdm?pointId=1287747093118#section-1287747093118 (http://hertscc-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/wcsdmp/wcsdm?pointId=1287747093118#section-1287747093118)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 13, 2011, 07:12:37 pm
Just a word of welcome and thanks to all those who have recently joined the forum and contributed to the incinerator debate. It's always heathy having diverse perspectives on such issues, particularly  as those of us not as informed try to make sense of developments. I hope someone in the 'for' camp will join and make their views known.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Tubbs on June 13, 2011, 11:11:58 pm
Community Charge (“Poll Tax”)

(Remember the poll tax!! that was overturned – even after it became law!!!)

Off-topic but deserving a response: Adrienne obviously believes the Community Charge was intrinsically wrong. That is the opposite of the truth: it was intrinsically correct and just.

We all consume services, we should all pay for them, subject only to our means to do so from income. Was there anything wrong with it? Yes: Its implementation. The discounts system did not reasonably reflect the ability to pay. My understanding is that Mrs Thatcher would not accept this. Hence a perfectly reasonable proposal was let down by bad implementation; and reinforced another reason people objected to it: ‘class envy’.

What is fair about the rates system? Answer very little. People consume services, not houses. But we use the house value as a (false) measure of income and ability to pay towards the councils’ costs. So we have continued with a system where, often a lone pensioner or two-couple household, living in a house they paid for (often by sacrificing other things in their earlier life) have to pay a substantial part of their retirement income / pensions in rates. Meanwhile a house housing two, three, and sometimes four or more occupants (often with several of them working), and thus able to pay, is charged less.

The unfair Rates system should be abolished, and replaced with a local tax system, that everybody should contribute to subject only to their ability to contribute. It can effectively and efficiently be levied through the tax system, and with a system of ‘local tax allowances (similar to income tax) to allow a ’tax free portion and the presence of children.

I urge all readers to think about this; and I would like to know the views of our elected representative.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: green on June 13, 2011, 11:28:30 pm
Unfortunately I am not going to offer an alternative to the underlying consensus which seems to be against development.

I think Hertfordshire County Council has lost sight of its role as a council and seems to be acting as if it thinks it is a corporation. The extent to which HCC have facilitated this development, for example with the vacant possession clause and moving of education facilities at tax payer’s costs indicate to me a playing field with HCC and Veolia on one side and the residents on the other. Veolia will not be left paying the true costs of acquiring the site. The costs and risks of this development are being placed on the communities HCC is supposed to be representing.

It seems unfair for many reasons that Hatfield is the location for the development. Already the location of incineration facilities are strongly skewed to poorer areas (55% of residents within 3km of existing UK incinerators are in the lowest socio-economic grouping whereas 3% are in the highest) and it is no surprise an incinerator at New Barnfield would be burning waste next to the the fourth most deprived area in Hertfordshire. Hatfield is found to have higher unemployment, poorer health and a poorer living environment than most areas in Hertfordshire and HCC seem happy to do nothing about this or even make things worse. Instead of constructing a recycling facility which could provide up to double the number of jobs per million tons of waste produced (and return wages to the local community instead of Veolia) it seems like they are happy to make the quality of life and life outcomes for people in Hatfield worse.

Also, here is a map to show some of the settlements within five miles of the proposed incinerator. Brookmans Park is 1.7 miles away from the site. If unseen particles can travel up to 10-15 miles from the site it’s reasonable to assume that those closer will be relatively more affected.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: John_fraser on June 14, 2011, 05:53:12 am
Yes, the smoke is filtered but if you do your research you will find that the 1% of toxic material that is too fine to be filtered (nano-particles) is the most likely to damage health.  It is also unregulated.  Infant mortality rates around these facilities appear to be 2-3 times that of the national average, with convincing figures showing increases in respiratory and neurological disorders.

Do you have a link to those figures?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 14, 2011, 10:04:28 am
Does anyone have any details of where the recycling plants are for this area? How many miles do the recycled materials have to be transported? Are they all in Hertfordshire? Does anyone know what levels of harmful CO2 emissions the movement of this material creates? Are those residents close to those recycling plants happy with the arrangements? I remember huge opposition from the community when it was proposed that a recycling facility was established on the A414  between Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City (near the Traveller site). With recycling how much methane is produced and how is this captured? What other gasses or waste product is generated or emitted and how are they controlled? How much energy is used to recycle all the various items? How much water is consumed? How is the waste water from recycling treated? How are the recycling requirements on Joe Public to be 'policed'? What will the penalties for not recycling be and how will these be enforced? I am currently in a 'battle' with the Council to take action on certain individuals on current failures; it's not working now, how will this change in the future? If a solution is not found to this issue, who will pay for the huge fines that will be imposed by the EU? (I think I know the answer to the last question  >:D) Will our politicians then be able to justify their current positions? As I've said before "Just saying "NO" is not the complete answer". What is it?

Incidentally, I have worked in warehousing and distribution and have seen the affect of inadequate packaging and the loss this causes. To supply our greedy world, food has to be transported over huge distances, it has to be packaged to ensure it is edible when it reaches market. How do those who just say 'reduce packaging' propose that we feed ourselves? How will that be enforced? How will we pay for it?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on June 14, 2011, 10:51:24 am
Yes, the smoke is filtered but if you do your research you will find that the 1% of toxic material that is too fine to be filtered (nano-particles) is the most likely to damage health.  It is also unregulated.  Infant mortality rates around these facilities appear to be 2-3 times that of the national average, with convincing figures showing increases in respiratory and neurological disorders.

Do you have a link to those figures?

Hi John, there are numerous articles on-line, some more anecdote-based than others (local paper reports in areas where incinerators are already in operation).  Here is one that appears to be based on scientific studies.  There is a long list of references that can be readily verified and link directly to the relevant articles.
http://www.precaution.org/lib/07/ht070712.htm#The_Deadliest_Air_Pollution_Isnt_Being_Regulated_or_Even_Measured (http://www.precaution.org/lib/07/ht070712.htm#The_Deadliest_Air_Pollution_Isnt_Being_Regulated_or_Even_Measured)

A slightly less scientific, though no less disturbing view of possible health risks:

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/districtnews/districtsttoz/9079433.Waste_incinerators_inquiry_into_link_with_infant_deaths/ (http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/districtnews/districtsttoz/9079433.Waste_incinerators_inquiry_into_link_with_infant_deaths/)

You don't have to dig too deeply to find numerous news stories like this and it appears to be strongly supported by scientific evidence. 

An interesting presentation on the subject, worth a watch:

http://www.ecoivy.org/index.php/media/53-videos/83-dr-paul-connetts-incineration-presentation (http://www.ecoivy.org/index.php/media/53-videos/83-dr-paul-connetts-incineration-presentation)

And finally, a comprehensive report:
http://www.ecomed.org.uk/content/IncineratorReport_v3.pdf (http://www.ecomed.org.uk/content/IncineratorReport_v3.pdf)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Tubbs on June 14, 2011, 11:09:49 am
As I've said before "Just saying "NO" is not the complete answer". What is it?

Ferdie is right about 'just saying no'. But I'd go a lot further. 'Just saying no' is no answer at all; it just shows an emotional response; an unwillingness to engage at a responsible rational level (whether one is pro or anti). Worse is that some of those who've joined in (or even promoted) this 'just say no' nonsense are people who really should know better.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on June 14, 2011, 11:54:22 am
As I've said before "Just saying "NO" is not the complete answer". What is it?

Ferdie is right about 'just saying no'. But I'd go a lot further. 'Just saying no' is no answer at all; it just shows an emotional response; an unwillingness to engage at a responsible rational level (whether one is pro or anti). Worse is that some of those who've joined in (or even promoted) this 'just say no' nonsense are people who really should know better.

'Just Say No!'  is simply a rally cry (a somewhat unimaginative one, perhaps) no more, no less.  Let's face it, they've been used since man first decided to take a stand against something he disagreed with.  From the suffragettes to Obama ('Yes, we can!' As dull as ours, but it did the job).  I would agree that we, at least the people heading this battle, must understand the whys and wherefores of the arguments on both sides,  but whether the onus is on those opposing the plans to come up with a perfect alternative is debatable.  It is surely the responsibility of the company proposing the facility to ensure the viability and safety of its own financial endeavours?  The average Joe on the street (like me) can see that the plan is hugely flawed but may rely on those in positions of responsibility to come up with plausible alternatives.  An emotional response is unavoidable when the health of our children is at stake but it doesn't necessarily negate ones ability to rationalise.  In fact, I would argue that almost all decision making involves both rational and emotional thought processes. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on June 14, 2011, 12:48:35 pm
As someone who used to be involved in the installation of industrial chimneys.
I would assume that the incinerator would have a chimney of some sort.
This would discharge at a height designed to dilute the particulate matter.
The "Plume" as it is refered to would rise way above the discharge point and be carried by the prevailing wind in the majority of instances.
The safest spot is under the chimney, the worst spot could be 40 miles away.
More hazzard is likely from smoking, boiler flues and cars than a well designed stack.
Perhaps the technicalities should be discussed with the relevent parties rather than adopt a NIMBY stance.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 14, 2011, 12:51:01 pm
I hope someone in the 'for' camp will join and make their views known.

In the apparent absence of any volunteers, I shall endeavour to turn Advocatus Diaboli and present the view from the other side:

-----------------------------------------------

Vell, ve haf all ze poor people (ve don't like zem), and all ze foreigners zat ve are forced to take (ve haf a term for ze non-Aryan ones; not zat ve like anything 'foreign' - even thinking zat vould be treason). And zis veakness makes our blood boil, ja!

But ve fooled zem dummkopfs.

Ve build incinerator and ve get lots of money to use for ze greater glory of Hertfordshire and ze Herrenvolk.

Better still, ve get to poison all ze untermensch in ze Hatfield concentration lager!
[Sfx: maniacal laughter. Y'know, the I'm-taking-over-the-world type]

Zay may not like it but tough - befehl ist befehl.

Seig Heil!  Oops, I meant bloody good show, what? Sorry about the right arm, old fruit - can't seem to bend it, must be arthritis.

-----------------------------------------------

In conclusion, HCC are probably not Nazis or Dr Who aliens but they do seem to have decided to behave like them.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 14, 2011, 01:24:18 pm
How do those who just say 'reduce packaging' propose that we feed ourselves? How will that be enforced? How will we pay for it?

There is a difference between essential packaging and promotional packaging. Also a balance to be struck between a few bruises on fruit and a mound of plastic waste. As previously pointed out in Reply #54 - does meat really need to be packed in plastic trays? Do cucumbers really need to be individually wrapped in polythene?

Worse is that some of those who've joined in (or even promoted) this 'just say no' nonsense are people who really should know better.

Equally that applies to the people promoting this scheme. A fairly cursory examination shows there are worrying gaps as to how safe it is really, and to whether it is best value for taxpayers. And people interested in these things claim there are other more economical, less expensive and less polluting options (see below for some of them).

As an opposition MP, Grant Shapps publicly declared at an HAI meeting in Welham Green that the notion of siting a major waste disposal facility next to a congested residential area was "madness".

The "Plume" as it is refered to would rise way above the discharge point and be carried by the prevailing wind in the majority of instances.
The safest spot is under the chimney, the worst spot could be 40 miles away.

Although that probably isn't the case on a day when there's little or no wind. In which case, I'd guess straight up and down ie. Ground Zero.


There are alternatives to incineration
However, in the mad stampede to avoid landfill tax rises and penalties (because no one bothered to deal with the problem earlier) these don't seem to be getting adequate attention.

Our pigs' slurry could save the world
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/utilities/article7114038.ece (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/utilities/article7114038.ece)


Making the best of garbage gas
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7048-making-the-best-of-garbage-gas.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7048-making-the-best-of-garbage-gas.html)


Anaerobic Digestion
http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/index.php/what-is-ad-qa.html (http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/index.php/what-is-ad-qa.html)


Plasma Gasification
http://www.safewasteandpower.com/process_plasma-gasification.html (http://www.safewasteandpower.com/process_plasma-gasification.html)


Waste Management to Add Landfill Plasma Gasification Unit
http://www.environmentalleader.com/2010/03/08/waste-management-to-add-landfill-plasma-gasification-unit/ (http://www.environmentalleader.com/2010/03/08/waste-management-to-add-landfill-plasma-gasification-unit/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on June 14, 2011, 02:14:53 pm
The chimney would be fan powered, there is virtually allways a wind 30ft above the ground, even on a still night!
Great post above!
Eet ees al a cunnning plan eye theeenk, somevere to dispose of zee beenspoutz!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 14, 2011, 02:36:10 pm
Zank you, but ve don't talk about zee beenspoutz!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Susan on June 14, 2011, 03:16:56 pm
I'm undecided about the incinerator, as I'd like more scientific evidence before I can reach an opinion for or against. However, hard facts were totally lacking at the Barnfield exhibition, and I was very disappointed that it was very much PR-led.

I think the map above from Green is misleading as it doesn't take into account any prevailing winds. I'd tend to agree with Jet on his analysis - although I wonder what happens to these particles in rainy weather.

I was also interested to know about the noise of operations, which doesn't seem to be mentioned. I know that the fans will be noisy, but don't know how far from the plant the sound will spread, particularly at night. A man from Veolia did alert me to this issue, but said they hadn't completed their tests.  ;)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on June 14, 2011, 03:47:21 pm
I'm undecided about the incinerator, as I'd like more scientific evidence before I can reach an opinion for or against. However, hard facts were totally lacking at the Barnfield exhibition, and I was very disappointed that it was very much PR-led.

I think the map above from Green is misleading as it doesn't take into account any prevailing winds. I'd tend to agree with Jet on his analysis - although I wonder what happens to these particles in rainy weather.

I was also interested to know about the noise of operations, which doesn't seem to be mentioned. I know that the fans will be noisy, but don't know how far from the plant the sound will spread, particularly at night. A man from Veolia did alert me to this issue, but said they hadn't completed their tests.  ;)

The empirical scientific evidence of harmful effects to health is readily available on-line with even a cursory search.  Jet's analysis does not tackle the issue of micro-particles, nano-particles or fine particles that are not measured or monitored and differ from the particulates he mentions in both size and potential to harm health (nano-particles being less than one micron or 1000 nm).  As far as noise is concerned, if you are only concerned whether noise will travel as far as Brooky P, that truly is a case of NIMBY-ism!  Personally, I don't think anyone should have to live with this in their back yard!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Susan on June 14, 2011, 04:12:07 pm
But, EvieMay, I live in WG close to the proposed site. I'm concerned about whether the noise will affect the houses close to the incinerator... not just my house either. Surely noise is a valid concern. :)

I did have a quick glance about the nano-particles, and a lot of research seemed to be concerned with car pollution. I don't have a lot of time to trawl the literature myself, but I would like to make an informed decision, not purely a NIMBY decision.  ;)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on June 14, 2011, 04:25:39 pm
I am not quallified to comment on contamination and was only giving practical advice as to what happens to the stuff.
As for noise, this is an issue, fans can be easily attenuated but low frequecies can turn up miles away. They can be below the freshhold level and still be a real nuisance. Less than the M25/A1. Double glazing would stop it at night.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Susan on June 14, 2011, 04:37:00 pm
Double glazing would stop it at night.

If the sound does carry, that would be a real nuisance for those of us who like to sleep with the windows open, particularly in summer. We'd have to install a bedroom fan of our own...  :(

Re the nanoparticles, wouldn't they be more likely to be blown away in the wind? Or not?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on June 14, 2011, 05:02:39 pm
Have you seen the read figures for this and the brookmans thread-very high.

are they right?

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on June 14, 2011, 05:06:47 pm
also does anyone know which way the wind blows in this area.

having considered the prospect of a "springfield (the simpsons)" type  senario in herts with the new incinerator, I have just realized we are next to one of the busiest motorways in the uk and all its associated pollutants.

time to move?

cant go east (dungeness)

cant go north (sellafield)

wales or cornwall anyone?

bp

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on June 14, 2011, 05:15:33 pm
But, EvieMay, I live in WG close to the proposed site. I'm concerned about whether the noise will affect the houses close to the incinerator... not just my house either. Surely noise is a valid concern. :)

I did have a quick glance about the nano-particles, and a lot of research seemed to be concerned with car pollution. I don't have a lot of time to trawl the literature myself, but I would like to make an informed decision, not purely a NIMBY decision.  ;)

Agreed,  it is a valid concern and one that I share with you.  I think I'm with BrookyP, time to move  :-\
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Susan on June 14, 2011, 05:16:56 pm
also does anyone know which way the wind blows in this area.

The prevailing wind is from the southwest, so I guess that means that the fallout is heading straight for County Hall in Hertford...  ;)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 14, 2011, 05:34:19 pm
I have been away all day and just read through the post in a rush, so forgive me if I missed a reference to this, but has anyone suggested an online campaign at 38degrees?

http://38degrees.uservoice.com/forums/78585-campaign-suggestions (http://38degrees.uservoice.com/forums/78585-campaign-suggestions)

And I don't see this as a NIMBY issue;  it's about adopting the right strategy for dealing with waste.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 14, 2011, 09:56:41 pm

cant go east (dungeness)

cant go north (sellafield)

wales or cornwall anyone?

bp

Nope!

Wales has the closed nuclear power station that could still be a problem at Trwsfynydd in Gwynedd & Wylfa on Anglesey then there's the Port Talbot renewable energy plant in Port Talbot. All those sheep producing copious amounts of methane and coal fired power stations Uskmouth, Camarthan Bay and Aberthaw!

Oh, and Cornwall, all that tin in the water! Also the background radiation from the granite and the extra cosmic radiation that gets through their nice clean air. Apparently a white tipped shark has been sighted in the seas too, don't fancy being fish food either!

We're all doomed Captain Mainwaring.

Serious point though, wherever you go, man has been there already! NIMBY or not, someone has to have these facilties on their doorstep.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Tubbs on June 14, 2011, 10:01:50 pm
also does anyone know which way the wind blows in this area.

having considered the prospect of a "springfield (the simpsons)" type  senario in herts with the new incinerator, I have just realized we are next to one of the busiest motorways in the uk and all its associated pollutants.

time to move?bp

This is progress! At last someone has recognised that there are other sources of pollution than the dreaded incinerator!They've been there a long time, and we all have contributed to them, no doubt!

Sorry to hear you might want to move (either despite the facts orbecaus of them, you choose; but either way will you accept a cheap offer on your house? After all, it won't be worth much with all that pollution...).

(I'm being cheeky to make a point...)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 15, 2011, 08:46:10 am
NIMBY or not, someone has to have these facilties on their doorstep.

Not necessarily an incinerator (potential alternatives listed in Reply #93). Also, as previously stated (Reply #76), the logical place for the county's main waste disposal facility would be towards the centre of the county (bearing in mind future population expansion).

This is progress! At last someone has recognised that there are other sources of pollution than the dreaded incinerator!They've been there a long time, and we all have contributed to them, no doubt!

All the more reason not to add to them.

There is enough traffic particulate pollution already. Apart from the motorway and other major roads, Hatfield is home to several major transport depots (Parcelforce, DHL, Ocado, CityLink, Yodel), and the Uno bus garage. While the Tesco depot (on the Welham Green side of Travellers Lane) is only accessible by road from Hatfield.

The borough air pollution monitoring station is on a roof in WGC!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 15, 2011, 08:58:08 am

the logical place for the county's main waste disposal facility would be towards the centre of the county (bearing in mind future population expansion).
 

Look out the good people of Knebworth. I'm sure they will welcome this! Have you tried driving down Knebworth High Street? BTW, they all welcomed the Crematorium built there too! lol
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 15, 2011, 09:37:39 am
We both know that's not going to happen. Not in the Conservative heartlands (given they're the party in power and pushing for this particular option).

Everyone in Hatfield, a more swing constituency, could vote against it and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference (Hatfield only makes up 5 wards in WHBC). Small wonder that the turnout in Hatfield was only around 33% in the last election.

While WGC-dominated WHBC are happy for Hatfield (a site of historic interest in many areas) to turn into an industrial and civic wasteland, with few long term residents other than social needs cases (in many cases they are paid to take them by central government and other councils). That way, more and more people will move out leaving more room to house social needs cases or students. WHBC gets funding from central government to make up for the expected shortfall in council tax for student houses, which they can then lavish on WGC (as their capital projects spending record shows).

Although this time they've scored an own goal - WGC and St Albans are visible from the hilltop at New Barnfield from ground level. And, of course, its right in BP's backyard, too.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: green on June 15, 2011, 02:29:44 pm
I think the map above from Green is misleading as it doesn't take into account any prevailing winds. I'd tend to agree with Jet on his analysis - although I wonder what happens to these particles in rainy weather.

The purpose of the map was to highlight how close the incinerator would be to other settlements and underscore that calling it the Hatfield incinerator obscures the impact it might have on other nearby places.

Whether or not it was scientifically cogent to suggest that those closest would be worst affected I am unsure - certainly studies such as Forastiere et al (2011) (http://www.ehjournal.net/content/10/1/53/abstract) suggest there may be additional cancer cases and other health problems for those within 3km (1.86 miles) of existing incinerators. What I do know however is that if there is an unknown or uncertain scientific risk, we should take a precautionary approach. It is for HCC and Veolia to prove that the incinerator is safe on scientific grounds, NOT the responsibility of residents.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 17, 2011, 09:17:44 am
Response from Veolia:

"The incinerator itself, Mr Curtois [Veolia group communications manager ] said, would be “elliptical”, with a maximum width of approximately 165m and minimum width of 145m.

It is estimated that 180 vehicles, including 130 HGVs, will visit the site every day.

The maximum number of HGVs per hour will be 25, relative to approximately 140 HGVs per hour on South Way."

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/veolia_responds_to_hatfield_incinerator_criticism_1_922115 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/veolia_responds_to_hatfield_incinerator_criticism_1_922115)

They're putting in their planning application in November.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on June 17, 2011, 09:34:44 am
if this goes ahead I hope the lorries will come in off the A1 only or we are all up for a complete destruction of the country environment we have all bought into

jees....not feeling this travesty of an incinerator idea at all

but sadly i still also cant answer what we do with all our landfill.

this whole thing has made me so aware now of what we send to landfill.

cant help but think this is all too late now...

bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on June 17, 2011, 12:16:23 pm
This is probably a red herring, but watching Springwatch on tv last night, I couldn't help taking on board the positive propaganda for land-fill sites.  And the UK is supposedly only 9% developed, so maybe we could go on land-filling until global warming or absence of oil reduces our standard of living (and packaging) to such an extent that there is very little that we can afford to throw away.    :icon_jokercolor:
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 18, 2011, 12:51:53 am
The site featured on Springwatch is operated by... Veolia!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mermaid on June 18, 2011, 06:27:19 am
The point was also made by the presenter that it had been a landfill site in the 40's and 50's, and the rubbish wasn't as toxic then   ???
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 18, 2011, 10:34:13 am
The point was also made by the presenter that it had been a landfill site in the 40's and 50's, and the rubbish wasn't as toxic then   ???

Quite likely as there wouldn't have been the volumes of man made materials and electrical equipment with toxic metals. That is one example why landfill is now unacceptable or any other form of dumping.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on June 18, 2011, 12:11:35 pm
It would be much better if things were made to last and be repairable. This society of cheap stuff that cannot be repaired has led to all this waste. Example Tvs that are scrap just because of a "dry joint" that you cannot get to. Washing machine that is nigh on impossible to get into and the part costs half the cost of a new one ( plus 10 or more programes when 2 is adequate) All these items are sent to the "developing world" to be broken up by poor people and then dumped there.
The WEE recycling laws are an Ass. Its still out of sight, out of mind.
Rant over.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 18, 2011, 05:01:15 pm
It would be much better if things were made to last and be repairable. It would be much better if things were made to last and be repairable.

[Sharp intake of breath around the globe as manufacturers read this - probably a few swear words, too.]

As people who have marketing training are probably aware, Planned Obsolesence is a wonderful thing for a company's bottom line.

Incinerator builders / operators probably swear by it. Environmentalists, on the other hand, swear at it.

It's a bit like Alec Guinness in The Man in the White Suit, which was is supposed to be based on the hydrogen fuel cell inventor's story. Technology that's been around since the end of WW2 but apparently deliberately suppressed by vested interests with big bucks and powerful backers.

I kid you not, I swear.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 20, 2011, 02:29:08 pm
As detailed in Reply #77,  the Health Protection Agency is going to undertake a study surrounding a possible link to infant deaths and incinerators.

Does anyone know whether it is possible to sue individual councillors if permission to proceed with the Veolia incinerator at New Barnfield is given before the results of this study are known?

Because if a link is proved, or it is outlawed on health and safety grounds due to air pollution, then taxpayers are still likely to end up paying the bill for the next 25-years at least (according to one of their people at the exhibition, once the period of the initial contract expires Veolia hand over the incinerator to HCC - and the bill for the eventual site clean up).

And I think it's fair to say that Veolia will make sure the contract they sign with HCC will be air-tight.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 21, 2011, 07:34:59 pm
An item be featured on BBC Online and local TV news today, while referring to London, has implications for BP and the proposed incinerator.

Pupils' health 'at risk' from London road pollution

"Up to 1,148 London schools are within 150m (492ft) of roads carrying about 10,000 vehicles a day, putting pupils' health at risk, a campaign group said."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13847843 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13847843)

It draws on a press release from the Campaign for Clean Air

“Long-term exposure to air pollution may have contributed to all 15,800 deaths due to cardiovascular causes in London in 2009 (i.e. one in three of all deaths) at an average additional loss of life for each of these adults of some three years at typical ages (e.g. 15% below age 65)

New scientific research indicates that children exposed to higher levels of traffic-related air pollution at school and home are at increased risk of developing asthma

Scientists say living near roads travelled by 10,000 or more vehicles per day could be responsible for some 15-30 per cent of all new cases of asthma in children; and of COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease) and CHD (coronary heart disease) in adults 65 years of age and older”

http://www.cleanairinlondon.org/ (http://www.cleanairinlondon.org/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: John_fraser on June 21, 2011, 10:29:57 pm
There are good reasons for and against the incinerator, but that last comment is just silly.

Quote
It is estimated that 180 vehicles, including 130 HGVs, will visit the site every day

Even allowing for each vehicles making 2 journeys (1 in, 1 out) that equates to 3.6% of the 10,000 vehicles mentioned in the article.

Do you drive? Are you going to give up your car? Is everyone else who objects to this plan.

Or are you suggesting there is no difference between an incinerator burning rubbish and 10,000 internal combustion engines?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 22, 2011, 07:56:25 am
There are good reasons for and against the incinerator, but that last comment is just silly.

Quote
It is estimated that 180 vehicles, including 130 HGVs, will visit the site every day


The 'silly' comment is part of the article quoted.

You misunderstood. the 'silly comment' was your post. The article talks about the dangers of pollution 10,000 vehicles. Against that 180 (or 360) vehicles is a drop in the ocean. Therefore the article is irrelevant to this debate.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 22, 2011, 11:37:57 am
I see from todays Welwyn Hatfield Times that "In just a few days the fund (to raise £50K for an anti-incinerator trust fund to fight a legal challenge) now stands at more than £50K and is growing fast". Very impressive. However, I am less enamoured with the fact that the "large majority of the trust's cash came from just three sources, Welwyn Hatfield Council, Hatfield Town Council and the North Mymms Green Belt Society". With the exception of the latter, the first 2 are funded by us as taxpayers, I hope this money is well spent.

Who sanctioned such expenditure? What guarantees are there that any delay to a solution being found to our waste that we won't also be funding EU fines? Of course our Council is elected and they may claim to have a mandate, but how do our councillors know that this electorate agree with the 'No' campaign? There also may be a majority that want a solution, as I've said before it is fine to say 'no', but what is the alternative and how will this be funded and enforced? Previously in this thread some have suggested it is not for the 'no' campaign to have an alternative. Not sure this stacks up, especially now taxpayers money is being used.

Of course some could say 'hold a referendum', but something like that would clearly appeal to the 'no' camp, I can't quite see anyone campigning for 'we want an incinerator!' What they may say is that we want a solution. How much better would the £50K be spent on a solution orientated campaign rather than lining lawyers pockets?

I rather fear that the only 'smell' from this incinerator campaign is one of politicians trying to stay in power or gain power and a Town Council trying to justify its existance. Sorry, but I am not convinced and I am sure I am not the only one.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on June 22, 2011, 02:25:03 pm
Worth bearing in mind that a full lorry makes more noise,produces more fumes and damages the road much more than a car.
My memories of BP are that the inmates are huge consumers and produce lots of waste in relation to the average in the country.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 22, 2011, 03:37:31 pm
However, I am less enamoured with the fact that the "large majority of the trust's cash came from just three sources, Welwyn Hatfield Council, Hatfield Town Council and the North Mymms Green Belt Society". With the exception of the latter, the first 2 are funded by us as taxpayers, I hope this money is well spent.

Personally, I’m more concerned with the £4.4m already spent by HCC (details in Reply #77).

And with entirely predictable legal action and further protests looming that’s only going to get a lot bigger.

What a waste of public funds - thanks to an extremely shortsighted and less-than-open-and-honest county council.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Dezza on June 22, 2011, 10:34:02 pm
Worth bearing in mind that a full lorry makes more noise,produces more fumes and damages the road much more than a car.
My memories of BP are that the inmates are huge consumers and produce lots of waste in relation to the average in the country.


And your argument is?
We may 'consume and produce lots of waste in relation to 'the average', but surely the point is that we are not average. Our houses are larger, are expenditure per capita is higher, our income is larger, but our consumption  of what exactly is larger? 'Averaged out' (which is how you insist on perceiving it) we probably produce less waste and are more enviromentally aware than many other members of society.
And, by the way, I consider myself an 'inmate' of nowhere,  I am a resident of a village.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on June 22, 2011, 10:50:04 pm

Personally, I’m more concerned with the £4.4m already spent by HCC (details in Reply #77).

And with entirely predictable legal action and further protests looming that’s only going to get a lot bigger.

What a waste of public funds - thanks to an extremely shortsighted and less-than-open-and-honest county council.

and what about the cost of not taking action? From the same article quoted by trekbat: "Officers say it will greatly reduce the more than £32million the council currently spends disposing of waste each year – a sum that is expected to rise dramatically in the coming years as hikes to landfill taxes and punitive European fines take their toll".

Sorry my record player seems to be stuck, 'just saying "no" is not the answer'.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on June 23, 2011, 01:01:40 am
Dezza me thinks thou doth protest too much ;D
There are many large one occupant houses, there are many occupiers with low incomes. Take a stroll round the vill on bin day and look at the out of proportion rubish. After many, all night, firework and "music" ridden bourgous "do's" one can observe heaps of empty Moet et Chandon bottles amongs the Lobster shell detrius, juxtaposing with the BMWs and certain Bentleys...............
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on June 23, 2011, 06:58:38 am
inmates!!.....happy to be one...and its beer cans and pizza boxes after my parties (all recycled of course)

BTW im the only person on my street with no bin out today

we need to up our game peeps...

bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 23, 2011, 08:20:51 am
Sorry my record player seems to be stuck, 'just saying "no" is not the answer'.

And it could be you favour the strawman style of debating.

It's only no to an incinerator or to having a waste site next door to a large congested residential area.

As stated in Reply #93 there are other alternative ways of getting rid of rubbish (and I'm told by people interested in this sort of thing that they are cheaper, more efficient and more economical).

I didn't include the £3-5m of OUR money that HCC is proposing to spend on disrupting the lives of special needs children - averaging that out at £4m, then that's already £8m+ spent or committed (a quarter of the supposed savings, and the costs are racking up as we speak).

And what happens if the HPA study (referred to in Reply #77) proves there IS a link between incineration and infant deaths? Or if there isn't enough waste (supermarkets and others manufacturers are beginning to respond to consumer concerns; recycling rates are increasing; people are getting poorer, so consuming less; and recycling is increasing)?

You can bet your last penny Veolia won't be the ones picking up the tab. They've got more sense.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 26, 2011, 12:34:55 pm
Hatfield Against Incineration – planned activities

1.  Welwyn Hatfield Environmental Network Meeting (WHEN)

Meeting opposing the proposed incinerator at 19:30 on Thursday, 14 July 2011, at at Douglas Tilbe House, Hall Grove, Welwyn Garden City, AL7 4PH

 
2. Public Consultation on proposed Temporary move of Southfield School

This temporary and disruptive move of a special needs school has been acknowledged by HCC to cost around £3.9m to Hertfordshire taxpayers and represents poor value for money. It is being proposed in order to strengthen Veolia's planning application later this year (Details were published in minutes of the HCC Education and Skills Cabinet Panel meeting 12 May 2011. See Agenda Item 6, Point 6.1)

You have the opportunity to record your objection to the unnecessary disruption to special needs children's education, an avoidable waste of scarce public funds, and questionable behaviour by elected representatives in using public funds to promote a private sector bid.

Please copy and paste the following URL in your browser window to access the online consultation:

www.hertsdirect.org/your-community/havesay/consultation/csfcons/southfield (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-community/havesay/consultation/csfcons/southfield)

Please note: comments need to be made by Wednesday 13 July 2011

 
3. New Barnfield Trust Fund 

A trust, linked to the Hatfield Against Incineration group, is being set up to collect large donations towards legal expenses of the campaign against the building of a waste incinerator at New Barnfield.

So far, North Mymms Green Belt Society has offered a donation, and Hatfield Town Council and Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council have offered grants.

 
4. Veolia’s Pre-Planning Consultation 

Veolia intend to hold a second exhibition, probably in September 2011. HAI plan to mount a second protest.

Please note: if you are joining Veolia’s Community Liaison Group, please remember that no amount of small changes would make an incinerator acceptable on the New Barnfield site.

 
5. Veolia’s Planning Application

This will probably be made in November this year, so residents and local organisations need to be ready with their objections, as the planning consultation period will be brief. Residents must show massive opposition if this is to defeated.

The planning application will be judged by the Development and Control Panel of Herts County Council (HCC). Members of this panel can be lobbied, but please remember that if a member states a view, he / she must give up their place on the panel.

HAI will be using professional help to present the case against the planning application.

Even if HCC grants the planning application, it is very likely to be 'called in' by the government, because it is so controversial. The government can then reject the planning application.

This can be defeated if everyone plays their part.

HAI needs volunteers and helpers further information can be found on their website:

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on June 26, 2011, 08:29:28 pm
How can we contribute to the New Barnfield Trust fund?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 27, 2011, 11:34:45 am
I asked the question from HAI - apparently the bank account has not been set up yet.

Will pass on details if I hear anything more.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on June 27, 2011, 02:36:35 pm
5. Veolia’s Planning Application

HAI will be using professional help to present the case against the planning application.

The 'New Barnfield Trust' (although at the meeting called by our MP it was to be called 'New Barnfield Fighting Fund') has raised £50,000 for this purpose.  HAI has done a great job but is it now in danger of confusing the public as to which body is leading the opposition? 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 27, 2011, 02:54:04 pm
My understanding is that the Trust Fund will be spending the money - on legal representation only - through HAI.

Quite frankly, without HAI I don't think there would have been much opposition to the incinerator.

Please note: I'm not part of the HAI executive - just a concerned (and seriously peeved) resident helping out.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on June 27, 2011, 05:17:24 pm
My understanding is that the Trust Fund will be spending the money - on legal representation only - through HAI.

Quite frankly, without HAI I don't think there would have been much opposition to the incinerator.

Please note: I'm not part of the HAI executive - just a concerned (and seriously peeved) resident helping out.

I was at the meeting that set up the new Trust, and have a copy of the draft minutes before me.
That Trust is opening a bank account.  The Trust, not HAI, will fund both legal and environmental advice, and  a lawyer with a strong track record has been approached by the Trust.

As I said, HAI has done a great job.  It is just that a bit of clarity is needed on respective roles from now on.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 27, 2011, 08:16:14 pm
Are the groups opposed to the incinerator split?

As I said, HAI has done a great job.  It is just that a bit of clarity is needed on respective roles from now on.

Quite frankly, without HAI I don't think there would have been much opposition to the incinerator.

Would it not be more effective to join forces?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 28, 2011, 09:34:30 am
One would hope the two are singing from the same hymn sheet.

I can only speak for myself.

And in my opinion, there would not have been any trust fund set up if it had not been for HAI (with the support of Friends of the Earth and other environmental groups) holding meetings with expert speakers explaining the potential negative aspects of the Conservative-controlled county council's proposals.

In fact, it was after attending a HAI meeting where Dr van Steenis spoke that I was sufficiently concerned to do some research on the US EPA site (which I published on the Welwyn Hatfield Forum), and became involved in this (although personally I'd rather not).

Leadership and direction from our elected representative bodies - Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council and Hatfield Town Council - on this (and other issues regarding Hatfield in particular) has been, in my opinion, non-existent. While our MP seemed to be happy to host the odd petition and flog glorified rubberbands (in fairness, he claims to have been the first person to have raised the alarm on the issue - created by his own party).

While some party faithful will consider these to be provocative words, consider this: until I posted the information here, people in BP appear to have been unaware that the County Council were willing to tear up covenants and fork out scarce taxpayers' funds to disrupt special needs children's education in order to force the incinerator planning application through. I've also highlighted the clear intention to use rail transport, which has only been mentioned in HCC's waste strategy so far.

Why did this information not come from our politicians and civic leaders?

If anything, it seems to me, that people, like HCC councillor Stuart Pile (also our rep on the CRL move panel - yet another issue that seems to have been largely 'forgotten'), appear to be supporting interests other than that of the people they were elected to represent.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on June 28, 2011, 12:51:03 pm
Are the groups opposed to the incinerator split?

Would it not be more effective to join forces?

HAI is a member of the new group.  However it does have a different agenda in being against incinerators anywhere.  The new group is solely against the New Barnfield site.

If anything, it seems to me, that people, like HCC councillor Stuart Pile (also our rep on the CRL move panel - yet another issue that seems to have been largely 'forgotten'), appear to be supporting interests other than that of the people they were elected to represent.

Cllr Stuart Pile was at the inaugral meeting of the New Barnfield Trust.  He represents Hatfield South on the county council.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 28, 2011, 02:57:03 pm
If I recall correctly, he was also at the HAI meeting which Dr van Steenis attended.

Councillor Pile was later described in the local press as being "unconvinced" about any health threat.

I would dearly love to have it enshrined in law that anyone seeking re-elction should have to publicly issue a statement of their achievements in office.

Publicly - so any claims can be examined and queried.

Now that the New Barnfield protest is gaining momentum it's interesting to see certain people scrambling for places on the bandwagon / photo shoot.

Guess that's politics for you.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on June 29, 2011, 08:55:16 am
For those interested in this issue who use Twitter, may I suggest adding the hashtag #nbinfo (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23nbinfo) to all tweets so that they can be found in one place?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 05, 2011, 04:49:20 pm
According to the latest edition of Welwyn Hatfield Life (Summer 2011, No.39 - pg.11) the first full month figures (April 2011) for recycling under the new bin scheme are in.

They show recycling rates are have dramatically increased to over 45 per cent.

This is welcome news and shows that if the scheme is rolled out across the county there will be a massive reduction in the amount of waste that has to be sent to landfill (or incinerated).

Add moves by manufacturers and supermarkets to cut excess packaging, and the growing awareness of the need to recycle, and it is good news for the future.

And it makes the argument for building an incinerator in Hertfordshire all the more weaker (bearing in mind that there are existing facilities and some other authorities are also building them).

Of course, that doesn't mean some politicians are willing to listen to reason or common sense.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on July 08, 2011, 09:16:21 pm
Has anyone suggested trying to get the PFI funding for the incinerator at New Barnfield stopped?  If PFI funds are not made available to HCC, Veolia could be prevented from fulfilling the contract to build it.  The Treasury is realizing that PFIs are expensive - http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/press_22_11.htm (http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/press_22_11.htm) 

The people to write to are:
Lord Sassoon (Commercial Secretary to the Treasury) House of Lords, London, SW1A 0PW – no email address available.

Jesse Norman (MP for Hereford and South Herefordshire)
jesse.norman.mp@parliament.uk  See http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/14/pfi-profits-taxpayer-rebate (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/14/pfi-profits-taxpayer-rebate)

Francis Maude (Minister for the Cabinet Office)
francismaudemp@parliament.uk  The Cabinet Office is looking closely at PFI in its quest for efficiency savings.

George Osborne (Chancellor)
george.osborne.mp@parliament.uk

You could also email public.enquiries@hmtreasury.gsi.gov.uk and your MP.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on July 09, 2011, 10:27:58 am
What reasons would we give for the Treasury not to grant the funds?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 15, 2011, 07:59:54 am
"Chemical particles in diesel exhaust fumes could increase the risk of heart attacks, new research has suggested.

Edinburgh University scientists found minuscule particles produced by burning diesel can increase the chance of blood clots forming in arteries...It was found that the particles, and not the gases, impaired the function of blood vessels...Professor Jeremy Pearson, associate medical director at the British Heart Foundation, said: "We've known for a long time that air pollution is a major heart health issue..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14152045 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14152045)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on July 15, 2011, 08:22:46 am
i dont think the incinerator and lorries going to it will be emitting much more fumes than we are already exposed too....al la m25...bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 15, 2011, 08:32:00 am
True - but we want to improve the situation. Rather than do anything to make it worse.

Of course, they still haven't come clean on the plans to transport the waste by rail as has clearly been their intention from the outset.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: milkmade on July 15, 2011, 02:30:55 pm
Who thought they MIGHT come clean????
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on July 15, 2011, 05:46:43 pm
i dont think the incinerator and lorries going to it will be emitting much more fumes than we are already exposed too....al la m25...bp

I disagree, if you compare the composition of the emissions from an incinerator to motor vehicles the former clearly contain more 'nasties' than the latter.  Since I live less than1/4 mile away from the proposed site no amount of assurance that toxic emissions are within 'acceptable' levels will suffice. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on July 15, 2011, 07:46:28 pm
On Roehyde Way, Hatfield, the 'old' A1 that runs past the Hatfield Oak Hotel and is the link to the A1(M) junctions north & south, there were new traffic lights installed when The Forum was opened. I'm sure may BP residents have used that road. Since November 2010 the phasing on these 'new' lights has been wrong, leaving only 7 seconds of green light. This has caused in its time tens of thousands of cars, lorries & buses to needlessly stop and start day in, day out. I am sure many readers have been inconvenienced by this needless changing of lights, 24/7 too. Even more importantly, the road is used by probably well over 100 Tesco lorries and their suppliers a day, plus of course all the buses using the University hub by the Forum and travelling to and from the park & ride facility. Stopping & starting such vehicles uses approximately 25% more fuel and significantly increases emissions. To travel from the A1 south to New Barnfield, requires travelling through 4 sets of lights.

I have been trying for months to get Herts Highways to resolve the issue without success. It has been a catalogue of misinformation and error with various parties all blaming someone else, (Herts Highways, The University of Hertfordshire and the developer of The Forum, Willmott Dixon). The latest I have been advised since I finally gave up myself and this week involved our MP Grant Shapps in this debacle, is that in 2 weeks it should be resolved. We shall see. The point of this post... the pollution emitted already by such poor control of our highways by all this needless stopping and starting of HGV's & PSV's must have been huge. I am also aware there are many times the lights by the Park & Ride on South Way also seem to change to red for no good reason, further exacerbating this pollution. Whilst I agree nobody would willingly want 'more' pollution, we are already subject to it, day in day out. As this one example shows we are already subjecting ourselves to needless traffic pollution and I think that is what BrookyP was suggesting too. Of course, the emissions from the incinerator will differ, but there is a lot we can do with the road network too.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on July 16, 2011, 12:11:38 pm
Ferdie I applaud your reasoned and informed post.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Liqourice on July 17, 2011, 10:47:25 am
I have no problems what so ever with the incenerator.. better than landfill sights. just stop moaning about it please
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 17, 2011, 01:30:58 pm
Ferdie I applaud your reasoned and informed post.
I second that.

PS
If anyone likes to pay more taxes than necessary (incineration is said to be less efficient) or prefers being poisoned then that is their prerogative.

Just as it is mine to raise the issue and try and keep the spotlight on it until it is defeated or becomes an expensive and potentially toxic reality.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on July 17, 2011, 01:50:22 pm
Anyone who doesn't have a problem with the incinerator clearly does not live in the immediate vicinity, hasn't taken the time to research the impact of such a facility or doesn't understand the implications (or has shares in VEOLIA).  Incinerators produce toxic ash that still needs to be land-filled (for those who have not been following the thread and links to information provided).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on July 18, 2011, 10:59:46 am
This whole issue really epitomises what is wrong with current policy on waste and recycling.

Waste and recycling is tackled at a local level with councils (even within the same county) having different policies, different collection schedules, different wheelie bins etc etc. What I believe would be better would be to have a uniform, nationwide policy. Perhaps (if incinerators are really the answer and I'm not saying they are or aren't) fewer, larger incinerators could be built in sparsely populated areas.

For the same reason we would build a nuclear power station away from densely populated areas, why don't we do the same for incinerators ?

I appreciate that this might mean more traffic in some cases it would probably be more acceptable that an incinerator on our doorstep to many people. ALso, if there were fewer, larger facilities (with a rail link) there would be better opportunities to generate electricity, or recycle that come with economies of scale.

Of course re-use, recycle, or don't consume in the first place are the best ways forward, but if we accept that we will always generate a certain amount of waste then a national plan has to be the better way.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on July 18, 2011, 01:13:33 pm
This whole issue really epitomises what is wrong with current policy on waste and recycling.

Waste and recycling is tackled at a local level with councils (even within the same county) having different policies, different collection schedules, different wheelie bins etc etc. What I believe would be better would be to have a uniform, nationwide policy.

Totally agree, I have thought this for years. We need more joined up thinking between different
authorities, and not just for waste but other areas too.
As a for instance if you look at planning information for St Albans the website is completely different
to Welwyn/Hatfield and presumably differs again with all other local authorities.
Why is there not one standard local authority website model for all area's?
How much extra does it cost for each local authority to design and maintain there individual sites?
Total madness and a waste of tax payers money.
Another classic example of non-joined up thinking is Swanland Road which was recently
re-surfaced but only up to the Hertsmere boundary leaving the rest of the road falling apart.
Surely it would be more cost effective to do the whole road at the same time and split cost with
Hertsmere?
More joined up thinking on packaging too, only recyclable plastics should be allowed.
Why are tetra-packs allowed? Why not use plastic instead.
Why are crisp bags made from non recyclable materials?
Why, oh I can't be bothered to go on any more RANT over.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on July 18, 2011, 03:16:52 pm
indeed...why are foods packaged in stuff we cant recycle.

the answer is not to buy the stuff that is in these packets. the only way to make producers change is if they notice a dent in sales...

also still too many black bins out on a regular basis in BP.....poor show...bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on July 18, 2011, 03:26:43 pm
also still too many black bins out on a regular basis in BP.....poor show...bp

But how do you know what's in them ?

I still put my black bin out each fortnight but it's barely 1/3rd full most of the time with most of my waste now in the recycling bins.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: PS on July 18, 2011, 06:15:21 pm
indeed...why are foods packaged in stuff we cant recycle.
the answer is not to buy the stuff that is in these packets. the only way to make producers change is if they notice a dent in sales...
also still too many black bins out on a regular basis in BP.....poor show...bp

Its because its probably the only choice you have - if you don't buy, and there is no alternative, then you may have to go without - how mant are prepared to do that ? 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on July 19, 2011, 09:02:34 am
Believe it or not producers often want to use as little packaging as possible, or at least spend as little as possible on it.

We go to Tesco or wherever and expect everything to be in perfect condition, even if it's an apple from or South Africa New Zealand that's  travelled around the world. The reality is that packaging is necessary in many cases.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on July 19, 2011, 09:09:09 am
Believe it or not producers often want to use as little packaging as possible, or at least spend as little as possible on it.


Yes, but why can't it be recyclable packaging?
Probably because as you suggest they want to spend as little as possible and go for the
cheapest option.
I believe there should be legislation forcing companies to use recyclable materials only and
cannot understand why this has not already been done.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on July 19, 2011, 09:15:04 am
Believe it or not producers often want to use as little packaging as possible, or at least spend as little as possible on it.

We go to Tesco or wherever and expect everything to be in perfect condition, even if it's an apple from or South Africa New Zealand that's  travelled around the world. The reality is that packaging is necessary in many cases.

As mentioned before, having worked in food retail logistics for many years I can confirm how important correct packaging is. Sadly, I have witnessed first hand the loss of huge quantities of food and other products when packaging has been insufficient. That is not to say that some packaging isn't excessive, but things like the plastic sleeve around a cucumber is often cited as unncecessary, yes it would be if produced locally and sold within days locally. Unfortunately, we don't produce sufficient locally, so it has to be transported for miles. No sleeve, one very soggy, limp cucumber that nobody would buy.

We as consumers demand perfection and no politician whatever his or her colour is going to win an election on a mandate to force us to only eat produce in season, to not buy any products that have to be imported and restrict our diets to meet the demands of the 'no waste brigade'. It just won't happen, unless we all want to starve. We don't like to be preached to either, whilst most people agree that recycling is good and sensible, we likewise will not accept being told "Thou shalt not....."
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on July 19, 2011, 09:30:14 am

That is not to say that some packaging isn't excessive, but things like the plastic sleeve around a cucumber is often cited as unncecessary, yes it would be if produced locally and sold within days locally. Unfortunately, we don't produce sufficient locally, so it has to be transported for miles. No sleeve, one very soggy, limp cucumber that nobody would buy.


Actually, there are acres and acres of glasshouses at Smallford near St Albans growing exactly
that - cucumbers!
This is so often the case, there IS food grown locally but as we all know, the supermarket
buyers are going to go for the cheapest option irrespective of air miles - remember those
shareholders want their dividends!
We seem to have strawberries in the stores from Holland at the moment, surely we can produce
sufficient in the UK?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on July 19, 2011, 09:38:47 am
Actually, there are acres and acres of glasshouses at Smallford near St Albans growing exactly
that - cucumbers!
This is so often the case, there IS food grown locally but as we all know, the supermarket
buyers are going to go for the cheapest option irrespective of air miles - remember those
shareholders want their dividends!
We seem to have strawberries in the stores from Holland at the moment, surely we can produce
sufficient in the UK?
Spot on, yes there are, but we are not prepared to pay for them, again, no politician will get elected on a mandate that we all have to pay more for our food. They can try and some would say our present administration is already doing that, but come the next election.....
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on July 19, 2011, 09:54:38 am
Whilst I would not wish to question the motives of the local politicians  >:D and councillors in their 'united' approach to the no incinerator campaign, you can be certain that none of them are doing it without at least one eye on the results for them in the next elections. One wonders if The County gets fined for not meeting landfill/recycling targets and we as tax payers have to pick up the tab, how the same individuals will justify their current stance? With the benefit of hindsight how many would have backed the News of the World? One always wants to back a winner, until it loses.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: jet on July 19, 2011, 10:19:34 am
The reason local produce is not sold locally is more to do with the machinations of the EU than anything else.
Its quotas and import/export figure manipulation.
The pollution used in transporting the tasteless foreign rubish is of course ignored.
There is a taste and quality difference between a local Strawberry and a forced foreign one.
As for Cucumbers, what a dead loss food wise.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 19, 2011, 03:30:31 pm
One wonders if The County gets fined for not meeting landfill/recycling targets and we as tax payers have to pick up the tab, how the same individuals will justify their current stance?

Certainly, the whole landfill, and by extension incinerator issue, is down to a failure of national government to deal with what is a national issue (as mentioned in Post #54).

It reminds me of all the various police forces, and NHS ambulance trusts spending loads of cash operating separate (or a few combined force) helicopters and all the associated facilities and costs that come with them.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 21, 2011, 10:48:40 am
Encouraging news from a poster on the Hatfield board:

£140m plan for household waste incinerator in Leicestershire is scrapped http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/140m-plan-household-waste-incinerator/story-12973472-detail/story.html (http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/140m-plan-household-waste-incinerator/story-12973472-detail/story.html)

Loss of Government Funding Halts Plans for New Waste Treatment Plant (Leicestershire)
http://www.waste-management-world.com/index/from-the-wires/wire-news-display/1460593588.html (http://www.waste-management-world.com/index/from-the-wires/wire-news-display/1460593588.html)

Also covered on BBC Online:
Leicestershire waste site plans may be dropped
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-14214062 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-14214062)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on July 22, 2011, 08:36:14 am
Clearly nobody wants waste incinerators, the link below is the campaign by Bedfordshire residents against plans by Covanta an American 'energy from waste' company, who claim they strive for a 'cleaner world' http://mmetag.com/ (http://mmetag.com/) and in Norfolk the Anglo-American consortium Cory Wheelabrator's plan to build at Saddlebow, Kings Lynn, http://www.klwin.com/ (http://www.klwin.com/) and in Oxfordshire a legal challenge fails for the Ardley incinerator, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-14085296 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-14085296). The latter doesn't bode well for our taxpayers money being used by our local campaign to mount a legal challenge against Hatfield.

If these plants are all so dangerous, we're clearly all doomed and the companies building them must be all lying about their safety records, data and plans. They also must have a 'death wish' for their businesses as surely if they are so dangerous and non productive they will cease to exist in the future? Councils also must by lying about the need for waste disposal as why would they be introducing them, risking political suicide, knowingly destroying their own county and clearly upsetting their residents if they weren't necessary? I'm confused.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 22, 2011, 09:20:23 am
As the Maxwell pensions, Enron, parliamentary expenses, banking collapse and the current NoW scandal show there's not much SOME people wouldn't do for the sake of making money.

While the still-radiation-spewing Fukushima plant (several months on) shows safety reassurance CANNOT be relied upon.

Personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to public health issues.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on July 22, 2011, 09:27:18 am
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/recycling_rates_soar_in_welwyn_hatfield_1_971416 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/recycling_rates_soar_in_welwyn_hatfield_1_971416)

Article in WHT claiming 50% recyling rate in Wel/Hat now being achieved!
Whilst this is extremely commendable & a step in the right direction I would suggest that
certainly from my own experience and bearing in mind that most waste IS recyclable that the
rate should be much higher, at least 80% possibly 90% and if manufacturers were only
allowed to use recyclable materials then even 100% could be achieved.
Now obviously this would require 100% effort from the local community and sadly
a 50% rate suggests to me that a significant % of people are either not recycling or fully
recycling their waste.
As a suggestion - If the serious amounts of money being spent on moving schools and
libraries etc were to be spent on targetting, educating, enforcing and re-enforcing those
sectors of society that choose not to participate, then would there be any need for an
incinerator?

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on July 22, 2011, 11:53:49 am
In a one minute drive from the incinerator roundabout to the a1 london slip I counted 7 lorries.

on that basis its 70 every 10 mins so 420 an hour

I know the incinerator is not wanted and i dont want it but the existing lorry traffic is a big pollution problem too.

bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peter Hastings on July 27, 2011, 10:19:41 pm

Certainly, the whole landfill, and by extension incinerator issue, is down to a failure of national government to deal with what is a national issue (as mentioned in Post #54).

It reminds me of all the various police forces, and NHS ambulance trusts spending loads of cash operating separate (or a few combined force) helicopters and all the associated facilities and costs that come with them.

Mmm so you would prefer all policy made and implimented by national government? People are moaning about Herts County Council approving an incinerator the Borough and Parish Councils object to. Would you really like there to be no local authorities and have everything micro managed by Whitehall-I wouldnt.

A national police force is a particularly scary idea.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 28, 2011, 10:06:13 am
For all HCC responsiveness we might as well be managed by central government - and save the money as they are NOT representing us.

An incinerator will just about finish Hatfield's future prospects - and long delayed town centre redevelopment.

Given that the bulk of the criminal justice system (laws, courts, prisons...) are centrally run why not have a national police force? It works for the Army, Air Force and Navy...

I certainly don't think we need 57 separate forces with distinctive uniforms and administrations for England and Wales.

However, this is going off topic.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 28, 2011, 10:06:53 am
Public Meeting - Wednesday, 3 August 2011, at Jim MacDonald Centre

Hatfield Against Incineration is holding a meeting at 19:00 on Wednesday, 3 August 2011, at Jim MacDonald Centre, High View (Hilltop), South Hatfield.

The aim of the meeting is to give campaign supporters an opportunity to suggest activities they would like to see organised in support of the campaign – particularly activities connected with Veolia's pre-planning consultation and planning application later on in the year.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peppermint on July 29, 2011, 04:46:27 pm
Welwyn Hatfield Times front page on their website confirms that Welwyn Hatfield Council have signed the deal with Veolia to build the incinerator in Hatfield.

So much for listening to the residents concerns. :(
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on July 29, 2011, 07:48:12 pm
The Times refers to Hertfordshire County Council signing the deal, it is the County Council who are the one's contracting Veolia, not Welwyn Hatfield Council, who are against this arrangement.
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hertfordshire_county_council_signs_hatfield_incinerator_contract_1_979221 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hertfordshire_county_council_signs_hatfield_incinerator_contract_1_979221)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 30, 2011, 11:49:58 am
Or so WHBC say...

I don't see the mayor or ruling party leader John Dean leading the charge against this.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on July 31, 2011, 12:02:48 am
Or so WHBC say...

I don't see the mayor or ruling party leader John Dean leading the charge against this.
But why then has his Council contributed to the 'fighting fund' trust as announced in the Welwyn Hatfield Times 22nd June?

"The trust has already surpassed its original funding target of £50,000 just days after forming – thanks largely to donations from Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, Hatfield Town Council and the North Mymms Green Belt Society."

http://www.106jack.com/news/local-news/controversial-hatfield-incinerator-contract-signed-3864/ (http://www.106jack.com/news/local-news/controversial-hatfield-incinerator-contract-signed-3864/)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on July 31, 2011, 10:45:34 pm
You asked (post #145 ) what reasons could be given for the Treasury not to grant the PFI credits to HCC’s Energy from Waste Facility at New Barnfield. This is some of the information a group of friends and I will be using.           

What is a PFI?  See - http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ppp_index.htm (http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ppp_index.htm) 

For a general overview and discussion of PPP/PFI initiatives see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_finance_initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_finance_initiative) and a Parliamentary research paper at *http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp2001/rp01-117.pdf

For further information see - http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/waste_pfi.pdf (http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/waste_pfi.pdf)

HCC’s Expression of Interest can be found at http://www.hertsdirect.org/infobase/docs/pdfstore/EoI.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/infobase/docs/pdfstore/EoI.pdf) and the Outline Business Case (OBC) at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/disposal/future/docs/OBC/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/disposal/future/docs/OBC/)  The OBC consistently claims that one large Energy from Waste combined heat and power facility is the favoured option thus putting off from bidding those companies who would have provided other solutions – there are others and most are cheaper and provide flexible solutions (EfW ties into a 25+ year contract so no flexibility if/when circumstances change).  We think the best solution would be a number of smaller local recycling centres, incorporating a range of technologies including anaerobic digestion, generating heat and electricity for local use. This would be more robust in the long term and reduce associated transport impact both in terms of cost and pollution. It would also mean that waste was being dealt with nearer to its source and not concentrated in one area, South Hatfield. Surrey, with similar demographics to Hertfordshire has adopted this strategy as they decided that one large incinerator was too expensive.

In 2010, Defra undertook a spending review - http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2010/10/20/changes-to-pfi-programme/ (http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2010/10/20/changes-to-pfi-programme/) and withdrew provisional offers of PFI funding for a number of waste projects saying that they “will no longer be needed in order to meet the 2020 landfill diversion targets set by the European Union”.  See also http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/waste/local-authorities/widp/pfi-funding/ (http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/waste/local-authorities/widp/pfi-funding/) -

1   Value for money.  So, is HCC’s project going to give the taxpayers of Hertfordshire value for money? 

See the National Audit Office report on PFIs - http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1012/lessons_from_pfi.aspx, (http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1012/lessons_from_pfi.aspx,) there are sections on potential disadvantages of PFI and the rising costs “Since the credit crisis, newly negotiated PFI deals face higher charges”. Under PFI, we (the taxpayer) do not own the asset (the incinerator), but instead we pay the contractor an annual charge for the use of the facility over the period of the contract. Once the contract has expired, ownership of the asset either remains with the contractor, or it is returned to the public sector, depending on the contract.  If the latter, we could also be faced with decommissioning costs.  It should be noted that the annual charge is not fixed as it will rise along with inflation*.  Depending on the contract that HCC has signed there may also be gate fee charges.  See, http://www.wrap.org.uk/downloads/2010_Gate_Fees_Report.6ed82b0c.9523.pdf (http://www.wrap.org.uk/downloads/2010_Gate_Fees_Report.6ed82b0c.9523.pdf)

As well as the obvious costs, there is the circa £5m for relocating Southfield School temporarily and The Park Education Centre permanently.  The costs for moving and re-housing the other services from New Barnfield have not been mentioned.  As part of the move Welwyn Garden City library is to be relocated while the building works are undertaken so that the Reference Library can move there.  There could also be a loss of tourist revenue to the area – Hatfield House is a regular venue for concerts, art exhibitions, country and craft shows.  Point 7.5.13 “ … highlighted the potential for the plume to cause maximum impact on ground level concentrations around Hatfield House to the north east arising from the prevailing wind.”  http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/scopingopinions/scopingopinions/newbarnfieldso/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/scopingopinions/scopingopinions/newbarnfieldso/) - it also mentions the visual impact from Hatfield House. 
 
EfW facilites (incinerators) only become cost effective as far as the Govt are concerned when they produce power and heat.  Without these outputs they are burning items which will then have to be re-produced using valuable resources and energy and they will also be contributing to climate change emissions.  With power and heat output they become sources of renewable energy, but only if what is being burned is not suitable for recycling or reuse.  The OBC, the purpose of which was to gain the PFI credits, point 33, states, “Following appraisal, (EfW + CHP) is considered the best performing technical option …” and point 86, “heat to be made available to external users approximately four months after the operational date of the facility.” More recently HCC has said, “The facility will also have the ability to produce heat should a local user be identified”  - http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/disposal/future/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/disposal/future/) 
The Environment Agency has said, “New plants should be carefully sited in order to maximise opportunities for CHP”.  The site chosen, New Barnfield, is at some distance from suitable customers, therefore who is going to pay for the infrastructure to deliver the heat?  Neither Veolia nor HCC have actually stated that heat will be supplied or said how this will be done.  “The facility is also capable of supplying heat to suitable local users” – Veolia Community Update, July 2011.

Given that recycling rates are already increasing, http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/environment/waste/wrfg22-wrmswqtr/ (http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/environment/waste/wrfg22-wrmswqtr/)  what happens if there is not enough waste being supplied?  Waste that could be recycled/composted would be burned, contrary to Defra’s Waste Review p8, pt 22 - http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13540-waste-policy-review110614.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13540-waste-policy-review110614.pdf) or waste would be imported from elsewhere (see below).  Thirdly, other Councils have found that they have had to pay penalties to the operators – again it depends on the contract that they have signed.  Will we have sight of the contract?  The taxpayers of Nottinghamshire had to take Veolia to the High Court - http://www.p-a-in.co.uk/commission.htm (http://www.p-a-in.co.uk/commission.htm) and http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldeconaf/63/63we07.htm (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldeconaf/63/63we07.htm) also makes interesting reading. 

Why is the proposed incinerator so large? Basically, so that Veolia can make profits and they will do so from the start by bringing in waste from elsewhere. That is certainly not value for money for taxpayers of the County.  Neither is the number of jobs that this incinerator will create - other methods would create more – for info on this and a summary of all the issues see http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/media_briefing/up_in_smoke.pdf (http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/media_briefing/up_in_smoke.pdf)

See also - http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentonline/newsarchive.aspx?articleid=46264 (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentonline/newsarchive.aspx?articleid=46264)

Landfill taxes were introduced when it became evident that landfill was not sustainable.  Will the Govt introduce an Incineration tax in future? Irish local authorities can levy a charge on waste incineration and similar taxes exist in Denmark, Austria, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden.
 
Will the taxpayers of Hertfordshire end up compensating Veolia if planning permission for the project is refused as has happened with some other of these projects?  It depends on the terms of the contract that HCC has signed.  This seems also to be a reason to call into question HCC’s role as both the commissioning agent and the planning authority.

The other criteria are
2   The likelihood of delivery of the project
3   How soon the facility was planned to be operational 

We make the following points:
We do not think that HCC has listened to the people voicing opposition to this proposal but in their haste to secure the PFI credits they have rushed everything through.  It has been reported that at the first meeting on 28th April, councillors questioned again and again whether an EfW plant was needed at all.  Does anyone have the voting figures for the HCC Meetings on 28th April, 2011?
Labour group leader Councillor Sharon Taylor is quoted as saying, “These are private companies and they are obviously going to come up with the solutions that are the most profitable for them…are we being driven here by the time table for PFI and not what’s best for the people of Hertfordshire?” (Watford Observer, 28.4.11)
On 24/12/09, the Environment Agency responded to HCC’s consultation by saying that, among other sites, Harper Lane is unsuitable for a waste site as it is in a source protection 1 zone and they (EA) would object to any new waste development in that area - http://hertscc-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/site_allocations/wsapo2?pointId=ID-997272-P-3.12&do=view. (http://hertscc-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/site_allocations/wsapo2?pointId=ID-997272-P-3.12&do=view.)  Why then was EoN’s bid (Harper Lane) shortlisted in July 2010 and allowed to go to final tender?  See also, ENDS Report 436, May 2011, p17.  This may call into question the waste site allocations process.

James Clappison called into question HCC’s consultation process in Parliament - http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2011-02-16b.1097.0&s=Energy+from+Waste+Incineration#g1101.0 (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2011-02-16b.1097.0&s=Energy+from+Waste+Incineration#g1101.0)  He also called into question HCC’s ability to be both the commissioning authority and the planning authority.

The facility was planned to be operational in 2015, HCC now anticipates March 2016 http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/disposal/future/procproc/timetable/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/disposal/future/procproc/timetable/)

However, this could be further delayed if the project is taken to Judicial Review as these cases can take years to even get to court.  A legal challenge is likely given the opposition to the project from Hatfield residents, local groups such as HAI, Friends of the Earth, Herts Without Waste and Burning Issue Group, our MP, Welwyn Hatfield Council, Hatfield Town Council.

Caroline Spelman is reported to have written to Norfolk County Council as Defra (PFI) credits depend on support for the project across the community http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-13584067 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-13584067) and http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/councils/spelman-writes-to-norfolk-over-efw-opposition. (http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/councils/spelman-writes-to-norfolk-over-efw-opposition.)  You can also email her to ask her not to award the £115.3 million PFI funding that this incinerator needs to proceed - caroline@carolinespelman.com  Caroline has also consistently campaigned to protect the greenbelt so, if you write to her, it is worth mentioning that New Barnfield is a greenbelt site that has a Covenant on it restricting its use to leisure, education and libraries - HCC are seeking to have this overturned.

I would like to say that we started off with open minds, although some of us live in South Hatfield, but the more we read the more we think that what is proposed is not the right solution for Hertfordshire’s waste and that New Barnfield is absolutely the wrong site.  Thank you for the opportunity to present this information.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 01, 2011, 09:28:01 am
Ex Libris,
Congratulations on an excellent and informative post.
Although I understand that part of HCC's thinking is that they will receive income from Veolia for taking on other counties' waste. Indeed I strongly suspect that providing these facilities for London boroughs has always been a key consideration.

But why then has his Council contributed to the 'fighting fund' trust as announced in the Welwyn Hatfield Times 22nd June?

Because, Ferdie, this is increasingly becoming a political hot potato. And will be a political liability for the Conservative party for at least the life of the incinerator. Besides, it's easy to be generous with other people's (taxpayers) money.

I also remind you that posters on this board appeared to be unaware that HCC was willing to tear up convenants and fork out £5m of taxpayers' money to temporarily move Southfields School solely to facilitate Veolia obtaining planning permission.

HCC Councillor Stuart Pile, previously having attended the Dr van Steenis HAI-arranged meeting was later quoted in the local papers as saying he was unconvinced about the negative health impacts. At the debate before the vote he apparently spoke out against it (by which time the New Barnfield site was well established). However, the vote itself was held in secret so the electorate will not know whether his words matched his deeds.

Still, I like to think I'm a fair-minded person. Perhaps you'll be so obliging as to list what else WHBC / WHBC leaders have done to raise people's awareness and lead opposition to the incinerator (Grant Shapps organised a couple of petitions and flogged some glorified rubberbands but he's the MP; Kieran Thorpe has been active in HAI and the LibDems were early supporters).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 03, 2011, 09:32:57 am
News release just issued by Welwyn Hatfield.


PRESS RELEASE: 3 August 2011
Monetary support for New Barnfield opposition

 
Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council’s Cabinet has agreed a proposal to pledge £20,000 of support to fight the plans to erect an waste burning incinerator in Hatfield.  The Cabinet has recommended that the Full Council vote in favour of this decision at next month’s Full Council meeting on 12 September.
 
It has been recommended that the money should be made available to campaigners, the New Barnfield Trust, to pay for legal and professional fees to fight against Hertfordshire County Council’s plans.  Monies should be provided on an ad hoc basis, as requested and required, up to the value of £20,000.
 
Veolia Environmental Services plan to build an Energy from Waste plant on New Barnfield, near Hatfield.  Hertfordshire County Council is the planning authority for this project and once an application is submitted later this year, Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council will also be a consultee and will vigorously feedback the views of the local community at this time.
 
Councillor John Dean, Leader of Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, said: “This council has opposed the plans for an incinerator in Hatfield since they were first mooted.   The recommendation to release this money is unanimously supported by Cabinet members.
 
“Though we are not opposed to a waste from energy solution to managing the county’s waste, we are vehemently opposed to its location in the town and our real concerns lay with the potential impact on residents and schoolchildren in the surrounding area.”
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 03, 2011, 12:39:54 pm
THE deal to build the Hatfield incinerator has been officially sealed, after Hertfordshire County Council signed “one of the biggest contracts it has ever entered into”.

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hertfordshire_county_council_signs_hatfield_incinerator_contract_1_979221 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hertfordshire_county_council_signs_hatfield_incinerator_contract_1_979221)



HAI is holding a meeting today at 19:00 (7pm) at Jim MacDonald Centre, High View (Hilltop), South Hatfield.

The aim of the meeting is to give campaign supporters an opportunity to suggest activities they would like to see organised in support of the campaign – particularly activities connected with Veolia's pre-planning consultation and planning application.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on August 05, 2011, 09:58:01 am
You may be interested in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-14402286. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-14402286.)  In particular there is a link to a document called New Barnfield proposals which is presumably going to be available at Veolia's next "exhibition".

This company is well versed in 'spin' and well known for not listening to local residents.   

Two examples:
Richmond, California, “Richmond residents complain of foul smell”
… Veolia Water runs the plant. Veolia says the smell cloud could come from anywhere, including nearby oil refineries.  "There is no data to support the recent assertion that odors (sic) are originating from the plant," Veolia said in a statement to ABC7 News.  Air quality monitors dispute that. New city sensors that detect hydrogen sulfide in the air say otherwise, as do Point Richmond residents.

In 2003 concerned residents in Chineham, Wildmoor and Hook, reporting a variety of strange smells and haze, sometimes lasting for days.  Copies of residents' concerns were immediately reported to their local councillor who made subsequent enquiries within the council and contacted the operator, Hampshire Waste Services, to request an explanation.

The response was typical; the operator claimed that the size of ash particles taken from Chineham indicated that they could not have come from the incinerator and instead blamed unidentified bonfire burning.  The operator is Veolia.
http://www.bbacweb.com/Incidents.shtml (http://www.bbacweb.com/Incidents.shtml)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on August 05, 2011, 10:30:59 am
'Ex Libris' seems unaware of American spelling of words such as 'odors' and 'sulfides' compared with the English 'odours' and 'sulphides'.  Equally the New Barnfield proposal is for a sorting and incineration plant, not activities likely to produce smells unlike composting.

Don't get me wrong - I am against the New Barnfield location for this proposal.  Misdirected comments on smells weaken the case against this proposal.  If Veolia can destroy arguments about non-existant smells then as in classic court room tactics, the whole case against the plaintiff is discredited.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 05, 2011, 01:29:08 pm
'Ex Libris' seems unaware of American spelling of words such as 'odors' and 'sulfides' compared with the English 'odours' and 'sulphides'.

I hardly think spellings on an online forum are a matter of concern given the nature and scope of the issue. Frankly, I'm surprised and disappointed that you've seen fit to raise it.

Equally the New Barnfield proposal is for a sorting and incineration plant, not activities likely to produce smells unlike composting.

The story on New Barnfield is something of a moving feast - its capacity has increased from what was first claimed; it was a combined heat and power facility then it wasn't; a key part of the Waste Strategy is that it should facilitate the transport of waste by rail but nothing has been mentioned - so far; artist's impressions of the site do NOT show any power lines...

The key plank of the HPA assurance on the safety of incinerators, if believed, is that in 'well-run' incinerators there should be no problems. Veolia appears to have a somewhat chequered history in regard to the various waste management facilities it operates (as a Google search will reveal).

And this is something which does not augur well for the future IF it is allowed to go ahead with its plans for New Barnfield.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 05, 2011, 03:02:34 pm
'Ex Libris' seems unaware of American spelling of words such as 'odors' and 'sulfides' compared with the English 'odours' and 'sulphides'. 

I understood the quote was from an American publication, which explained the spelling. However, I agree with trekbat that the spelling is not the biggest issue here.

I hardly think spellings on an online forum are a matter of concern given the nature and scope of the issue. Frankly, I'm surprised and disappointed that you've seen fit to raise it.

What I am more interested in is hearing the case for the plant and the benefits we as local residents will see.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 06, 2011, 11:28:59 am
Benefits? Good question.

Allegedly savings in Council Tax / rises averted but that depends on how they calculated how the projected savings from landfill.

Not sure about projected income from taking other counties' waste.

[Also see Reply #92 on: June 14, 2011 for answer to question]

On the downside, apart from issues already mentioned previously in this thread, with the cutback to library hours already announced, Hatfield (home to the Uni and plenty of social needs cases) will see its library access reduced from 6 days a week to 5, and a 75 per cent cut in total hours (once New Barnfield closes).

WGC keeps both its public libraries and enjoys 7-days-a-week access.

This apparently is HCC idea of fairness. Not that the other local authorities appear to be particularly bothered / interested.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on August 08, 2011, 11:42:57 am
What I am more interested in is hearing the case for the plant and the benefits we as local residents will see.

I must have been feeling a bit tetchy when commenting on the spelling, for which I am sorry. 

As to benefits we as local people will see, the answer has be be virtually none.  Incineration means that less waste material will go into landfill so the county council will not be fined by the EU as much.  Therefore council tax will not increase as much.

Although the Hatfield Against Incinerators group are anti-incinerators anywhere, my feeling is that some waste has to be incinerated.  It is the siting at New Barnfield that is wrong.  All the signs are that it was chosen simply because the land is already owned by the county council.  Not good enough!  There must be a better site in the county somewhere.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on August 08, 2011, 04:33:05 pm
Hopefully I have managed to attach the minutes of a recent meeting of the (very small) Community Engagement Group.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on August 08, 2011, 04:37:50 pm
Sorry - wrong format! Try again-...
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on August 09, 2011, 12:50:52 pm
What I am more interested in is hearing the case for the plant and the benefits we as local residents will see.

Further to my previous comment, last week's WH Times had a two-page spread on the incinerator.  It said the County Council should save £31 million a year for 25 years by reducing the EU Landtax bill.  This would be a 6% reduction on HCC Council tax for 2011/12 of £504M .  In my case this would save me £84 a year.

Another benefit should be an increase in local employment.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 09, 2011, 02:37:38 pm
It's was not clear how HCC arrived at that figure - for example, did they simply extrapolate existing volumes sent to landfill? Are projected population increases factored in? Has the impact of recycling and manufacturer led attempts to reduce quantities of packaging / increasing recyclable nature of packaging been taking into account?...

As to savings, that's also debatable.

Reply #77 highlights £4.4m already spent on the bidding process (with around another £3-5m to temporary relocate the special needs school); costs of bringing and defending a legal challenge to taxpayers is unknown but mounting; admin costs of dealing with protest mail, FoI requests and other issues regarding the incinerator are also unknown; Police and legal costs for protests and demonstrations are also open ended.

Reply #77 also highlights an ongoing HPA investigation into a jump in infant deaths in Great Lever - where the Raikes Lane waste plant incinerator is based. Should this prove to there is a link then there are going to be all sorts of costs (especially for taxpayers).

Greater HGV traffic to the incinerator is also likely to lead to an increase in respiratory and other medical conditions leading to increased strain on the NHS - funded by taxpayers.

Reply #93 highlights alternatives to incineration which Green campaigners claim are more efficient and economical.

Total local employment is likely to be negatively affected as the incinerator will have a negative impact on Hatfield as a whole - undermining attempts to secure investment in the new town centre and hilltop redevelopments. Mitsubishi is likely to want to move out and not many people will want to move into the area.

PS
Pleased you retracted the earlier comments on spelling - we all have our 'off' days.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 10, 2011, 03:59:08 pm
Paul Zukowskyj, HAI committee secretary and a UH professor, has written a detailed rebuttal to last week's letter in the Welwyn Hatfield Times from a Veolia rep.

Among the issues he deals with is the charge that Energy from Waste (EfW) is less 'green' than gas-fired, nuclear, wind, tidal, solar, and hydro power generation. Roughly equal to oil-fired power stations and ONLY cleaner than coal.

He also makes the charge that the artist's impression produced by Veolia breaches the Landscape Institute guidelines (and not for showing a power generating plant that has no visible connection to the National Grid).

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on August 18, 2011, 09:53:57 am
The planning application will be upon us before we know it. I have reprinted here some of the details from the HAI (Hatfield Against Incineration) website so that people can start thinking about objections.

Objections to Veolia’s planning application will need to be made formally when the planning application is made. There will be only a few weeks in which to make your formal objections.

So you need to get ready now with details (e.g. lorry movements)
You need to start urging all your neighbours and work colleagues and members of your organisation to get their objections ready now.
Objectors to the proposed incinerator already include Grant Shapps M.P., Welwyn/Hatfield Borough Council, and Hatfield Town Council.

The pre-planning consultation

Veolia will begin “consulting” with the local community from now, for a few months.

This is not a planning application where a few changes could make Veolia’s plan acceptable. An incinerator at New Barnfield is totally unacceptable.

e.g. Putting Southfield School children in portacabins on a field during widening of an access road is not a solution. Not building an incinerator is the solution.

All those opposed to an incinerator should make absolutely clear to Veolia that the objections to the use of this site are too fundamental to be overcome by a few changes.

SOME PLANNING OBJECTIONS TO THE USE OF NEW BARNFIELD

Planning objections should be on issues such as:-

Noise, vibration and disruption caused by the construction process
Traffic chaos created by waste lorries going to and from an incinerator
(on the route from A1M, along South Way, and on the slip-road to New Barnfield)

Noise, vibration and fumes from incinerator traffic
(combined with the Tesco depot lorries,

affecting children & adults at Southfield School, residents in South Hatfield,

workers in Tesco and Mitsubishi, users of footpath, cycle-track, recreation ground)

Loss of Green Belt separating Hatfield and Welham Green
Covenant limiting uses of the land to libraries etc would have to be over-ridden
Visual intrusion (over huge area, and especially over the cemetery)
Loss of amenity, such as Nature Walk, Library
Destruction of wildlife, including rare birds and legally-protected newts
Likely health-risks from emissions from an incinerator, and in handling and transporting of toxic ash from incinerator.
AND REMEMBER - HERTS DOES NOT NEED AN INCINERATOR

HATFIELD AGAINST INCINERATION www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on August 18, 2011, 12:08:30 pm
Some initial thoughts on the above points.

1.  Noise etc during construction period Not a valid reason.  If this was accepted then very many developments would not take place, such as Sainsbury's new shop in Welwyn Garden City.

2.  Loss of Green Belt.  The Government is very supportive of development, even incuding it in the last Budget speech - possibly a first.  Despite the fine words of supporting the Green Belt, it will be interesting to see if words are matched by action.  This is already a 'brown field' site.

3.  Covenant limiting uses of the land to libraries etc would have to be over-ridden.   As the owner of the land, Herts County Council can simply delete this covenant.

4.  Destruction of wildlife, including rare birds and legally-protected newts.  What rare birds?  Also newts seem to be everywhere and can be moved.  This will carry little or no weight.

4.  HERTS DOES NOT NEED AN INCINERATOR.  Although HAI is totally against any incineration, I suspect that most people are simply against this location, not incineration as such.

My personal thoughts are that the location was evidently chosen because HCC already owned it so there was no purchase cost.  Not good enough since that criteria disbarred better sites not already owned by HCC.  My other main objection is traffic and its addition to the high frequency of Tesco lorries and the Park and Ride facility on South Way.  I simply do not believe it would add only 180 vehicle movements a day.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on August 18, 2011, 03:56:55 pm
Thanks for those points Bob, I'd now like to ask the people at HAI about the birds and perhaps raise your other points if thats OK with you.

I believe that Veolia are talking about 180 lorries - making it 360 vehicle movements which is just an incredible number. How on earth will parents & carers manage to get the children into & out of Southfield School safely at the start & end of the school day?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on August 18, 2011, 06:10:41 pm
Can I suggest that someone looks hard at the assumptions in the business case put forward by HCC/Veolia.

I have not looked at the case, however sometimes the devil is in the detail

For instance is the business case predicated upon a certain quantity of waste material - what happens if that quantity goes down.   How much time is allowed in the contract to "import" waste from outside the borough, what penalties will HCC (Herts County Council) suffer if the trends for increased recyling continue?
Has anyone looked at the EU permits on landfill which were one of the reasons for the incinerator - there have been questions raised whether those permits will continue.  If there are changes to the permits this effects the business case for the incinerator  - potentially making the economic case less sound.   
Also what effect does currency movements on the Euro have on the proposed savings that HCC have suggested they would make by introducing an incinerator?   The original deal with French owned Veolia was predicated on a certain exchange rate, since then the rate has dropped significantly, which in turn affects the business case for savings/ROI put forward by HCC

My view is the argument against the incinerator needs to also address the significant economic risks to the project and the consequent risks to the taxpayers of Hertfordshire.   We maybe concerned about the environmental issues, but it is the economics of the deal which will have a resonance with Veolia and Herts County Council.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on August 18, 2011, 08:55:23 pm


For instance is the business case predicated upon a certain quantity of waste material - what happens if that quantity goes down.   How much time is allowed in the contract to "import" waste from outside the borough, what penalties will HCC (Herts County Council) suffer if the trends for increased recyling continue?



I think you will find that Veolia will be delighted if we all recycle more, as that means they will be able to bring  in even more commercial waste, including clinical waste, which they will get paid for. Hertfordshire cannot possibly produce enough to keep this monstrosity going for 24hrs a day, so waste will come from anywhere & everywhere to 'feed' it
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on August 19, 2011, 10:25:16 am

... and that's against the proximity principle - http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefing_notes/planning_policy_statement.pdf (http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefing_notes/planning_policy_statement.pdf) may be of interest. 

Tumbliboo - all the documents are available at the library at New Barnfield.



For instance is the business case predicated upon a certain quantity of waste material - what happens if that quantity goes down.   How much time is allowed in the contract to "import" waste from outside the borough, what penalties will HCC (Herts County Council) suffer if the trends for increased recyling continue?



I think you will find that Veolia will be delighted if we all recycle more, as that means they will be able to bring  in even more commercial waste, including clinical waste, which they will get paid for. Hertfordshire cannot possibly produce enough to keep this monstrosity going for 24hrs a day, so waste will come from anywhere & everywhere to 'feed' it
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 20, 2011, 10:38:55 am
180 vehicle movements a day (360 to and from journeys) - it's not clear whether that is all inclusive or just the garbage trucks bringing in the refuse (in which case there will be additional movements - transport of recovered recyclables, and removal of toxic bag house filter waste to an underground storage site in Cheshire).

The size of the incinerator keeps growing - from its original 270,000 tonne capacity it was increased in December 2010 to 345,000; now it's 380,000 tonnes.

This is far bigger than the requirements for Hertfordshire.

HCC will need to supply a minimum of 180,000 tonnes (or pay to bring it in). There will be at least 35,000 tonnes of commercial and trade waste that Veolia will be allowed to dispose of (sourced from their various commercial contracts). The balance will apparently be extra Herts waste (or more likely from other councils).

Veolia have confirmed that the incinerator will be a CHP (Combined Heat and Power) facility. Although there are no contracts in place to take the heat (HAI sources state UH and Mitsubishi have ruled themselves out).

According to a leaflet sent out by Veolia, the containment dome will be around 45m high with a diameter of 145-165 m wide (it will be an oval shape).

The Millennium Dome / O2 is around 50m high with a diameter of 320m. So the New Barnfield dome will be nearly as high as the Millennium Dome and about half as wide - and built on one of the highest points in Hatfield.

As for jobs, according to Veolia, there will be 52 on a shift basis - assuming that's 52 posts manned 24-hrs then that equates to 156 full-time jobs (3x 8-hr shifts). However, the Central Resources Library, which will be removed from the site, has around 90 people on site. Add in the likely negative impact on Hatfield redevelopment plans and prospects (town centre and Hilltop) and it's very unlikely there will be a net gain in employment.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 21, 2011, 12:19:58 pm
Then there's the financing aspect, using PFIs:

"The Private Finance Initiative (PFI) used by successive governments to pay for new schools and hospitals is poor value for money, MPs have said.

The Treasury select committee said PFI was no more efficient than other forms of borrowing and it was "illusory" that it shielded the taxpayer from risk...PFI was introduced by John Major's Conservative government in 1992 as a way of bringing in private funding to pay for major public infrastructure projects...In a critical report, the cross-party Treasury select committee said the long-term expense of PFI deals - where the private sector shoulders the upfront cost and is typically repaid by the taxpayer over a 30-year period - were now much higher than more conventional forms of borrowing.

Due to the financing costs involved, it said paying off a £1bn debt incurred through PFI cost the taxpayer equivalent to a direct government debt of £1.7bn."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14574059 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14574059)

Bold text my emphasis
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 05, 2011, 09:02:43 am
Anti-incinerator protest march - 11:00 on Saturday, 24 September 2011

The Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) campaign group is organising a protest march against the proposed Veolia incinerator at New Barnsfield.

The march will start from High View (Hilltop), South Hatfield and will end in a rally at the White Lion Square, Hatfield town centre.

Additionally, HAI is looking for volunteers to deliver leaflets ahead of the march. If you're able to help, please contact HAI.

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 07, 2011, 03:04:46 pm
Found an interesting / worrying item on Veolia, the company that is planning to build and operate the proposed incinerator at New Barnsfield.

Serial offender fined after recycling bin death

"A company that says it is the UK’s leading waste and recycling firm and that parades its environmental and safety credentials has been fined £130,000 after a worker was killed when a 1,100-litre recycling bin fell on his head...

...Just two weeks before the fatality conviction, a Veolia news release noted: “Veolia Environmental Services, the UK’s leading recycling and waste management company has achieved a major milestone in its environmental and safety performance. The company has achieved ISO 9001, ISO 14001 and OHSAS 18001 certification for all its 350 sites across the UK.”

HSE’s prosecutions database reveals that Veolia (ES) was fined for serious safety breaches that resulted in injuries to workers in both 2006 and 2007, one relating to serious fall injuries and the other to exposure to acid fumes.

The safety watchdog’s enforcement notices database reveals it was issued safety improvement notices on seven occasions in 2008, once in 2007 and on six occasions in 2006. HSE’s prohibition noticed database shows violations at Veolia ES were so serious that HSE put an immediate stop to work once in 2008 and on three occasions in 2006, at different Veolia sites."

http://www.hazards.org/greenjobs/blog/2010/02/23/serial-offender-fined-after-recycling-bin-death/ (http://www.hazards.org/greenjobs/blog/2010/02/23/serial-offender-fined-after-recycling-bin-death/)


HSE’s prosecutions database
http://www.hse.gov.uk/prosecutions/case/case_list.asp?ST=C&EO=LIKE&SN=F&SF=DN&SV=Veolia&x=23&y=10 (http://www.hse.gov.uk/prosecutions/case/case_list.asp?ST=C&EO=LIKE&SN=F&SF=DN&SV=Veolia&x=23&y=10)

HSE’s enforcement notices database
http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_list.asp?PN=3&ST=N&rdoNType=&NT=&SN=F&EO=LIKE&SF=RN&SV=veolia&SO=DNIS (http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_list.asp?PN=3&ST=N&rdoNType=&NT=&SN=F&EO=LIKE&SF=RN&SV=veolia&SO=DNIS)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on September 07, 2011, 05:40:37 pm
Found an interesting / worrying item on Veolia, the company that is planning to build and operate the proposed incinerator at New Barnsfield.

Serial offender fined after recycling bin death


Any death is tragic. Do you have any comparative stats for similar organisations in similar industries and size? This is in no way justifying, and all employers should aim for zero accidents, but is it a 'serial offender'? How is that statement justified? This is a view of a TUC journal and relates to an incident in 2004 when Veolia was trading under a different name and management. Clearly there are other incidents reported, no accident is acceptable and risk must be reduced to the absolute minimum. I can see where 'serial' comes from, but that perhaps is not the complete picture? It would be interesting to know whether Veolia's accident rates are now better or worse than their competitors or any other similar industry. No activity is risk free. Waste, is by its very nature is hazardous.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 08, 2011, 11:31:46 am
This is in no way justifying, and all employers should aim for zero accidents, but is it a 'serial offender'? ... I can see where 'serial' comes from, but that perhaps is not the complete picture?

Statistically it usually needs 3 points to plot a trend. Veolia have racked up 4 HSE prosecutions and 24 HSE enforcement notices. The fact that they have been FORCED into action does not bode well for the future.

As for other industries / companies, I'm not particularly bothered - unless they're proposing to move into the neighbourhood.

Waste, is by its very nature is hazardous.

All the more reason NOT to dispose of / deal with it next to a congested residential area!

PS
Why do you seem to be so keen to defend them? You wouldn't happen to be a Conservative councillor / official perchance?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: John_fraser on September 08, 2011, 12:31:21 pm
Why do you seem to be so keen to defend them? You wouldn't happen to be a Conservative councillor / official perchance?

No idea if he/she is or isn't connected to the council but I'm not and I pretty much agree with Ferdie's point. Their history of HSE violations is relevant, but without a context there is no way of knowing how relevant. Other companies in our area may be far worse offenders, which means we're worrying about the wrong problem. I've got a feeling that its record is pretty much par for the course for a big company, but I'd be interested to know the safety record this sort of plant normally has.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on September 08, 2011, 06:16:34 pm
Not trying to defend, just trying to provide balance. The proposal for the waste site is from HCC. Veolia was the preferred bidder. I was merely reporting that the tragic incident was in 2004, that's not a 'defence' it is fact. A quick search on Google for safety awards in 2011 shows several sites run by VES have won many awards too. For example, several Veolia sites won a RoSPA Occupational Health & Safety, Gold Medal Award http://www.rospa.com/awards/winners/2011/gold-medal.aspx (http://www.rospa.com/awards/winners/2011/gold-medal.aspx) and in many other areas such as the Carbon Trust standard also in 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/sustainable-business/veolia-whitbread-operational-food-waste-diversion (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sustainable-business/veolia-whitbread-operational-food-waste-diversion) The Lambeth Business Awards also 2011, http://www.lambethbusinessawards.co.uk/sponsors/veolia-environmental-services (http://www.lambethbusinessawards.co.uk/sponsors/veolia-environmental-services). There are many other I could quote.
Does that make Veolia a 'serial award winner'?

I am not a councillor, or member of any political party. I am interested as a moderator on the site to ensure balance in the open and free debate. One could say we should at least be grateful that HCC has chosen a partner who has such a good track record, but of course acknowledge any fatal accident is one too many. Also of course any current safety record is relevant, but so are the positives. If that is 'defending them' so be it, but it's not my primary intention.

Of course all this could become irrelevant if the 'No' campaign is successful, but at least those who want to share a view, have a balanced view.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 09, 2011, 04:53:48 pm
Fair enough, gents, I have no quarrel with a balanced debate.

Personally, there are too many unknowns and issues with this project for my liking.

The basis for the Environmental Protection Agency reassurance is that 'well managed incinerators' should have no problems (although they are reported as currently undertaking a study into a spike in infant deaths around one incinerator site to reassure the public, which suggests to me that they are not entirely sure. And it's worth remembering how many decades it took to finally establish the harmful effects of smoking).

Things can and do go wrong - and clearly have in Veolia operations in the past.

One accident is one too many. Chernobyl, Bhopal and Fukushima are all 'single' events, which I daresay people living in their shadow were reassured wouldn't happen.

Grant Shapps MP publicly stated that the notion of siting a waste treatment plant next to a congested residential area is "madness". Unfortunately, his party colleagues at HCC clearly didn't agree and picked Veolia's New Barnfield proposal.

The incinerator has grown in capacity - originally 270,000 tonnes, increased in December 2010 to 345,000; now it's 380,000 tonnes. Far more than the County's requirement.

The planned structure is a few metres shorter than the O2 / Millennium Dome, and will occupy one of the highest points in Hatfield. So far all the illustrations produced by Veolia show it when the trees are covered with leaves and the weather is warm (its visual impact will be much greater in the winter months when the leaves are off the trees and the emission plume will be far more noticeable). It has already led to planning blight and will have a negative impact on Hatfield's long-stalled redevelopment. There is a real danger of it turning into a sink town - and as recent events have shown people in festering areas may spill out into neighbouring ones.

I attended a meeting with Veolia reps and it turns out that there is NO plan to transport waste by rail (a key plank in HCC's waste strategy document), and they have no takers for the heat by-product. So the reasons for siting it next to a densely populated residential area are not clear.

HCC is contractual obliged to supply 180,000 tonnes of waste a year (but cite commercial confidentiality when asked about penalties and income from the plant).

PFI finance, which will be used to fund the project, has been shown to be more expensive.

All in all, I expect politicians to represent the views and interests of their electorate - I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on September 11, 2011, 09:27:25 am
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_will_be_seen_from_luton_1_1018325 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_will_be_seen_from_luton_1_1018325)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on September 11, 2011, 04:58:20 pm
Not trying to defend, just trying to provide balance.

Balance is always to be aimed for, as is open and free debate which is why it is disappointing that Veolia has not thus far offered an opportunity for this as part of the “extensive consultation and community engagement process”.  My vote would be for a session based on the BBC Question Time format.  If anyone else thinks this is a good idea perhaps we can discuss it on the forum and put forward a proposal to Martin Curtois, Veolia’s Group Communications Manager. 

Veolia was not a winner of the Lambeth Business Awards.  It is, in fact, a sponsor of the Best Green Business section - http://www.lambethbusinessawards.co.uk/winners. (http://www.lambethbusinessawards.co.uk/winners.)  Veolia also sponsors the Wildlife Photographer of the Year Award - http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy/index.jsp. (http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy/index.jsp.)  Big businesses are out to make profits.  Offering sponsorship is clever marketing rather than altruism. 

The facts that Trekbat made evident in post #205 may well be useful when it comes to making objections when Veolia applies to the Environment Agency for an operating permit.  See http://www.klwin.com/whatyoucando.htm (http://www.klwin.com/whatyoucando.htm) for an example of objections from the King’s Lynn Without INcineration group.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on September 11, 2011, 09:26:23 pm
There is a huge amount of discussion here. Can anyone give a summary of what has been decided with the incinerator and affected surrounding buildings so far?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on September 11, 2011, 09:37:30 pm
Comments this week by Wel/Hat Council on Scoping Report by Veolia dated July 2011.

http://publicaccess.welhat.gov.uk/rpp/index.asp?caseref=S6/2011/1580/EI (http://publicaccess.welhat.gov.uk/rpp/index.asp?caseref=S6/2011/1580/EI)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 12, 2011, 11:31:19 am
There is a huge amount of discussion here. Can anyone give a summary of what has been decided with the incinerator and affected surrounding buildings so far?

It's a complicated story.


Essentially, facing punitive taxation as a result of threatened fines from the EU over Britain's use of landfill, Hertfordshire County Council decided that the county's way forward was to burn its waste and generate electricity. Opponents, which include Green groups, do not think this is the best option and have suggested alternatives (some have been adopted by other local authorities, others have opted for incineration, others have still not decided). 


Before its waste strategy (and supplier) was agreed HCC instituted plans to clear New Barnfield, leading some to believe that they had already made up their minds and were just going through the motions. It has also been suspected that HCC saw this as an income-generating opportunity and intended to take waste from other boroughs, particularly London, from the outset.


It was no surprise, at least in some quarters, when Veolia, the last of two remaining contenders (and the only one out of the last four in the selection process to favour New Barnfield), was picked and a contract signed. The historic town of Hatfield is now rather dysfunctional - it has been in decline for decades. Hardly surprising - since the 1970's it has been effectively run from Welwyn Garden City (apparently mainly for the benefit of WGC). An incinerator will further this decline leaving it a convenient dumping ground for HCC and WHBC, who get paid to take a variety of social needs cases, and get central government funding for the large student population - which they can spend where they like (capital commitment spending records, and a cursory look around, show it's NOT been in Hatfield - unless it's social needs housing, for which they've managed to get a grant from somewhere).


Opposition to the incinerator has mainly come from Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) - a motley crew of Greens, LibDems, Labour, and residents. There have been petitions organised by Grant Shapps but otherwise Conservative leadership on the issue has been muted (to put it very, very kindly). HCC Hatfield Councillor Stuart Pile claims when he raised the issue in 2007 no one wanted to know. However, the local press reports that the Conservatives at HCC voted down a LibDem proposal to exclude New Barnfield from the list of incinerator sites (on the grounds that it was next to a recently built special needs school) in 2009. It also mentioned that the other Hatfield county councillor, Clare Berry, spoke against the motion.


In the mean time, apparently buoyed by the low level of opposition and sympathetic local authorities (HCC is tearing up covenants and willing to spend millions of pounds to facilitate getting planning permission - see below) Veolia has been making the proposed facility bigger (originally 270,000 tonnes, increased in December 2010 to 345,000; now it's 380,000 tonnes) and handling a greater range of waste (including clinical). At the same time, arguments for siting it next to a congested residential area - rail access, sale of heat by-product - appear not to be going ahead, so are invalid.


The site will have a containment dome, which is a few metres shorter than the Millennium Dome / O2, and will be a visible sign (to avoid the area) for miles around. Current buildings on the site will be demolished to make way for it. It is not clear what will happen to Southfields School and its buildings after the temporary move.


Further information can be found at:

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/hertfordshire/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/hertfordshire/) (Veolia site)
http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/) (Hatfield Against Incineration site)
http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home) (HAI blog)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know how widely this has been distributed but I received a leaflet ("Temporary relocation of Southfield School to the former Howe Dell School site"), apparently from Herts County Council.

Essentially, they propose to build a single storey temporary building on the field next to the Old Rectory with road access from Woods Avenue.

The leaflet asks: Please send any comments about this proposal by Monday, 26th September to:

Vincent and Gorbing
Sterling Court
Norton Road
Stevenage
SG1 2JY

planners@vincent-gorbing.co.uk

I've made my thoughts known, you may want to do the same (however, please restrict it to the relocation).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 18, 2011, 09:25:10 am
Veolia's Marchwood facility gives an idea of what New Barnfield could end up looking like.

Marchwood Incinerator picture - 36m tall with 65m twin stacks, 120m diameter and 210,000 tonne capacity it is significantly smaller than the proposed New Barnfield facility (45m high with stack height not yet confirmed but expected to be around 100m, oval-shaped diameter 145-165m, 380,000 tonne capacity)
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/468922 (http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/468922)


New Barnfield Scoping Opinion - September 2010
www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/) plan/planningapps/scopingopinions/scopingopinionsnewbarnfieldso/
[www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/s/scopingopinionfornewbarnfield.pdf - Pg.19 shows that it was intended to take London waste; while the Regional Spatial Strategy is reported to have been abandoned the capacity of the incinerator has increased, not decreased]

New Barnfield Scoping Opinion - July 2011
www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/) plan/planningapps/scopingopinions/scopingopinions/17055877/

[You may need to copy and paste the above two URLS]

Some other information:

"People in Marchwood have reacted with anger to news that Veolia wants to change the original planning conditions that only two years ago stipulated it could only incinerate waste collected in Hampshire.

Fiona Hardy, who campaigned against the incinerator, said: “We are inundated with lorries, that is the thing I get most complaints about, the sheer volume of lorries...Opened in 2007, the Marchwood Energy Recovery Facility takes 165,000 tonnes of rubbish and generates 14MW of electricity a year. "

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4676739.Villagers____anger_at_incinerator_plans/ (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4676739.Villagers____anger_at_incinerator_plans/)


"It seemed the protests against the scheme had won the day when a pollution permit issued for the incinerator by the Environment Agency was quashed just three weeks later.

Opponents took their case to the High Court this week arguing that the scrapping of the permit meant that the council had acted unlawfully when it granted planning permission for the project.

Mr Justice Sullivan dismissed the challenge to the scheme yesterday, despite observing that it had generated the most public interest of any planning application dealt with by the council. "
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3226562. (http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3226562.)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 21, 2011, 09:14:52 am
Reminder: Anti-incinerator protest march - 11:00 on Saturday, 24 September 2011

The Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) campaign group is organising a protest march against the proposed Veolia incinerator at New Barnsfield.

The march will start from High View (Hilltop), South Hatfield and will end in a rally at the White Lion Square, Hatfield town centre.

HAI is looking for volunteers to make placards. If you're able to help, please contact HAI.

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Emma on September 23, 2011, 06:53:13 pm
Just a reminder to all that the protest march is TOMORROW (Saturday) at 11am - details as above - bring all the friends you can, theres still time to stop this but we need as many people on board as possible - it's not just Hatfield, but Brookmans Park, Welham Green, Potters Bar and surrounding areas who will be affected.

Weather looks good for tomorrow, lets all go for a stroll in the sunshine!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 27, 2011, 12:41:52 pm
The march was probably the largest seen in Hatfield (estimates vary from 400-1,000), and it hopefully woke up local politicians to how toxic an issue this will be for them (potentially for the next 25 years at least).

However, that pales into insignificance with the potential damage it could inflict on the people of Hatfield and surrounding areas:

"Chingford Green Ward has the second highest number of child deaths relative to its population in the whole of London, according to the most recent figures.

Infant mortality rates are usually found in areas of high deprivation but Chingford Green Ward is the second richest part of the borough.

The ward is close to Britain's largest incinerator in Edmonton and one researcher, Michael Ryan, says he has gathered evidence from across the country that areas situated where toxic emissions start to fall to the ground have a high rate of child deaths."

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/wfnews/1592749.Concerns_over_infant_death_rates_in_Chingford_Green/ (http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/wfnews/1592749.Concerns_over_infant_death_rates_in_Chingford_Green/)


In a posted comment Michael Ryan effectively states: "neither the Department of Health, nor the Health Protection Agency have examined any health or mortality data around any incinerator, which means that any advice they offer is worthless."
http://www.breathecleanairgroup.co.uk/?p=281 (http://www.breathecleanairgroup.co.uk/?p=281)


Mayor's Questions: Incinerators and child mortality pg.13
http://legacy.london.gov.uk/assembly/assemmtgs/2010/mqtjan27/minutes/written-answers.pdf (http://legacy.london.gov.uk/assembly/assemmtgs/2010/mqtjan27/minutes/written-answers.pdf)

Incidentally, according to an article published in the Welwyn Hatfield Times (21 October 2009, p.13), a LibDem sponsored motion to remove New Barnfield from the list of potential sites was defeated by the Conservative majority at HCC. Even more damning, it goes on to state that Cllr Clare Berry who represents (allegedly) Hatfield North spoke against the motion.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 30, 2011, 10:40:38 am
Veolia is reportedly behind the dirigible flying - with two streamers from the cable - at New Barnsfield (something not mentioned to the Community Engagement Group).

Evidently they are conducting some observations as part of their planning bid.

However, although there is little or no cloud cover, there is a significant heat haze / ground level ozone smog.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on September 30, 2011, 11:20:49 am
I am confused by this story about government cash for weekly rubbish collections.  Does this mean recycling, too, or just the landfill stuff?

Ministers: £250m will help fund weekly bin collections
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15118516 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15118516)

Quote
The government says it will make £250m available to help English councils keep or restore weekly bin collections.

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles told the BBC he believed the money would make a "significant difference".

But Friends of the Earth's Julian Kirby said evidence showed fortnightly collections boosted recycling.

If it includes recycling, I am for it because our recycling bins are heaving after two weeks.

If it is for landfill only, then I am against it because I fell it would discourage recycling rather than encourage it.

And, apart from these two points, where does that leave the incinerator issue?  Is this a strategy that increases the argument FOR the need for an incinerator or reduces the need?

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on September 30, 2011, 11:50:38 am
The blimp is up and clearly visible from my house, unfortunately!  I believe it shows the estimated height of the main chimney stack?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on September 30, 2011, 12:24:33 pm
Just to give an idea of height; I took this from the field beyond Parsonage Road in Welham Green.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on September 30, 2011, 01:38:09 pm

If it includes recycling, I am for it because our recycling bins are heaving after two weeks.

If it is for landfill only, then I am against it because I fell it would discourage recycling rather than encourage it.


I totally agree, if you collect all the recyclable material there is very little left to go to landfill.

Going by my own experience it is arguable that landfill collections could even be reduced by a
further two weeks to every four weeks!

Where are the government going with this?

I suppose they need to stimulate the creation of waste to feed the capacity of the incinerator
they seem so hell bent on.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on September 30, 2011, 10:29:48 pm
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/blimp_over_hatfield_to_test_incinerator_s_visual_impact_1_1076004 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/blimp_over_hatfield_to_test_incinerator_s_visual_impact_1_1076004)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 01, 2011, 12:00:01 pm
The blimp is up and clearly visible from my house, unfortunately!  I believe it shows the estimated height of the main chimney stack?

The inflatable had two windsocks attached to its cable. The one a short distance below is the estimated height of the twin stacks. The second was set at 41.2m and was said - by the chap from the company flying it for Veolia - to represent the tallest part of the dome. However, there was a breeze which pulled the cable from a true vertical. Also, according to their figures, the dome was said to be 45m high.

It was moored at what was said to be the centrepoint of the dome. The New Barnfield site is on a side of the hill, so to a limited extent its visual impact towards Hatfield may be less than feared. However, the worst visual impact will be in the colder months when trees have shed their leaves - and the exhaust plume will be much more visible.

The bottom windsock (top of the dome) was visible at ground level from the Hilltop (with ramifications for that proposed development), at several points along Bishops Rise and from the cemetery. The worst impact will be for those in Welham Green - where it was even visible from the public green and Balloon Corner.

To get an accurate assessment, it would need to be flown over several days after the leaf fall (and even that wouldn't necessarily show the height of the plume).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on October 01, 2011, 03:23:19 pm
The blimp is up and clearly visible from my house, unfortunately!  I believe it shows the estimated height of the main chimney stack?

The inflatable had two windsocks attached to its cable. The one a short distance below is the estimated height of the twin stacks. The second was set at 41.2m and was said - by the chap from the company flying it for Veolia - to represent the tallest part of the dome. However, there was a breeze which pulled the cable from a true vertical. Also, according to their figures, the dome was said to be 45m high.

It was moored at what was said to be the centrepoint of the dome. The New Barnfield site is on a side of the hill, so to a limited extent its visual impact towards Hatfield may be less than feared. However, the worst visual impact will be in the colder months when trees have shed their leaves - and the exhaust plume will be much more visible.

The bottom windsock (top of the dome) was visible at ground level from the Hilltop (with ramifications for that proposed development), at several points along Bishops Rise and from the cemetery. The worst impact will be for those in Welham Green - where it was even visible from the public green and Balloon Corner.

To get an accurate assessment, it would need to be flown over several days after the leaf fall (and even that wouldn't necessarily show the height of the plume).

I took a photo from balloon corner (or a few feet from) also.  You'll probably need to zoom in to see the blimp:




Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 02, 2011, 08:28:39 am
Nice photo.

The lower windsock (incinerator roof) was around the height of the trees at the end of the road. It bobbed in and out of view as the wind varied.

Unfortunately, it will be all too apparent later on in the year.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on October 05, 2011, 04:13:28 pm
You may all have done this already, but the Hatfield Anti-incineration Group is asking anyone who saw the blimp to let them know about it.  Their email is info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 07, 2011, 09:04:06 am
Message from HAI:

MEETING OF WELWYN HATFIELD BOROUGH COUNCIL ENVIRONMENT OVERVIEW & SCRUTINY (EOS) COMMITTEE

MONDAY, 10 October 2011, at 7pm in the Council Chamber, Campus West, Welwyn Garden City.

Borough councillors will be hearing information about the proposed incinerator.

There will be speakers from Herts CC, Veolia, HAI, and the Welwyn Hatfield Environmental Network (WHEN).

Paul Zukowskyj will be speaking for HAI.

Councillors can ask questions. It is a meeting of the EOS committee, but all borough and town councillors have been invited to attend.

The public can be there to listen, but do not have speaking rights (but you can contact your local councillor to ask questions before the meeting).

SUPPORTERS OF THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE INCINERATOR CAN ATTEND THIS MEETING TO SHOW THEIR INTEREST IN THE ISSUE – PLEASE TRY TO BE THERE


IF YOU SAW VEOLIA’S BLIMP ON FRIDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER 2011, PLEASE LET US KNOW

Veolia flew a balloon, with two windsocks on its cable, from the New Barnfield site. Veolia’s planning consultants were recording some views of the proposed incinerator, because they have to do this for their planning application.

The first windsock indicated less than the height of the dome (planned to be 45m) and the second indicated the height of the chimney stacks.

If you saw this balloon, please let us know where you saw it from.

It was visible throughout Hatfield and Welham Green, and much further away too, for example in Colney Heath and Hertingfordbury.

More information about the library closure (below) and the blimp (plus photos) can be found on our website: www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)


MORE VOLUNTEERS NEEDED TO DELIVER LEAFLETS (AROUND NOVEMBER)

Many thanks to all those many people who contributed to making our March and Rally on 24 September 2011 such a huge success (Please do look at the photos and video on our website).

Thanks to the hundred or so people who delivered leaflets.

We will need to deliver leaflets again, to remind people to respond to Veolia’s Planning Application, and to give them a sheet of paper with tick-boxes, to make responding easy.

Please contact me if you are willing to deliver leaflets next time. We need lots more volunteers, so that no one person has to deliver too many.


PLEASE RESPOND TO THE CONSULTATION ABOUT THE MOVE/CLOSURE OF THE CENTRAL RESOURCES LIBRARY

Plans and response forms can be seen at the Central Resources Library (New Barnfield, South Hatfield), and at the main Welwyn Garden City library, and you can see the plans and respond online at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/libraries/wgccrl (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/libraries/wgccrl)

This consultation runs through October.

Our main objections to this plan are:

Herts residents would no longer be able to browse the main stock for loan.

The music and drama stock for use by Herts groups would be on view on only one late evening.

Hatfield area residents would have library facilities for only 3 days and 2 half-days (at town library).

Hatfield area residents would lose the use of 12 computers which are now available at the Resources Library, and the working and reading space.

Hatfield area residents would have to travel to WGC to use the reference library and other facilities.

There are parking charges at WGC to stay longer than 20 minutes.

The whole plan is guided by the need to clear the site, not by the needs of library users.


Cathy Roe, Secretary, Hatfield against Incineration

Edited only to fix link to website
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 08, 2011, 11:16:05 am
Herts County Council is apparently conducted some road traffic measurements on the part of Travellers Lane that leads to the New Barnfield site.

I noticed a HCC van oddly parked under the pedestrian bridge and a couple of chaps in high-vis apparently watching the entrance to that section of Travellers Lane from across the roundabout.

The van is there again and the two men apparently working on street lights and road signs.

I say apparently because the position the van is parked in seems odd. Then it struck me - it's perfectly positioned to observe the entrance to the New Barnfield section of Travellers Lane.

It appears HCC is taking no chances of anyone trying to influence the results by repeatedly crossing the sensors across the road.

Still, if anyone wants to visit the excellent-but-soon-to-be-removed Central Resources Library or return their library books...
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 10, 2011, 10:07:42 am
Reminder:

WELWYN HATFIELD BOROUGH COUNCIL ENVIRONMENT OVERVIEW & SCRUTINY (EOS) COMMITTEE

Takes place at 19:00 (7pm) on Monday, 10 October 2011 (today) in the Council Chamber, Campus West, Welwyn Garden City.

There will be speakers from Herts CC, Veolia, HAI, and the Welwyn Hatfield Environmental Network (WHEN).

Paul Zukowskyj will be speaking for HAI.

Councillors can ask questions. It is a meeting of the EOS committee, but all borough and town councillors have been invited to attend.

The public can be there to listen, but do not have speaking rights (but you can contact your local councillor to ask questions before the meeting).

Please try to attend to show your interest.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 13, 2011, 08:12:49 am
Some good news for a nice change (but there are a few buts): at the WHBC Environment & Overview Committee meeting on Monday, at the summation, the committee made clear their intention to have Veolia's application called in by the Secretary of State. This makes it more likely that planning permission will be refused.

However, it will not have any impact on the decision to close the Central Resources Library. Also, Veolia is not a company that simply takes a 'no' lying down and may mount a legal challenge. Further, HCC appears to have put all their eggs in the incinerator basket, and will still have to find a solution (a statutory requirement as the Waste Disposal Authority.) The tendering process for the incinerator took years (and has already cost taxpayers several million), and if their incinerator option gets thrown out they'll be back to Square One, and if there is a legal challenge will be stuck there till it's over - while landfill taxes increase at the rate of £8 per tonne per annum (currently £56 per tonne).

Pity we can't offset the bill against the salaries/expenses of the people responsible for this mess.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 25, 2011, 02:43:54 pm
The Environment Agency made a presentation at a Veolia-organised meeting last week which scared the bejabbers out of me.

Specifically, the EA representative (likely to be the one monitoring the plant from their Hatfield office) said:

It was pretty much inevitable that emission limits would be breached.

That they permitted the half hourly limit to be breached by 2-3 times the daily average.

That the EPA did not consider the 'odd spike' to be of much concern.

That the Waste Incineration Directive (WID) recognised 'problems' with the abatement equipment (which was quite 'delicate').

That the facility could legally operate above safe emission levels for up to 4 hours before having to shutdown.

The WID recognises that problems do occur.

It takes over half an hour to shutdown an incinerator (depends on how much and the type of fuel on the grate).

-------------------------------

Message from HAI:

1. HEALTH IMPACT ASSESSMENT WORKSHOPS FOR THE PROPOSED INCINERATOR
 
As part of their Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield, Veolia intend to submit a Health Impact Assessment. Veolia have commissioned consultants Environmental Resources Management to prepare it, and they are going to involve the community.

ERM will be holding two workshops:
Thursday, 3 November 2011, 19:00 (7pm) - 21:00 (9 pm), at the William Cecil Memorial Hall, Hatfield Town Centre (opposite the market-place)
Saturday, 5 November 2011, 11:00 (11 am) - 13:00 (1 pm), at North Mymms Memorial Hall, Welham Green.

The meeting is open to all members of the community, but entry is restricted to those who book a place with ERM (telephone: 020 3206 5308 or email: nicola.finlay@erm.com).

In the Health Impact Assessment, health is defined as “a state of complete physical, mental and social well being”.

Factors that can be considered in the HIA include:

- Road traffic accidents (increased danger due to HGV and other refuse vehicle movements)

- Air pollution and noise related health effects (traffic and incinerator emissions; dust and noise from the construction and operation of the plant, and related infrastructure changes)

- Changes to the visual environment (visual blight from the incinerator dome and twin stack - particularly after leaf fall and in cold weather when the exhaust plume will be clearly visible)

- Impacts on economic development (blight property prices; and act as a disincentive for the Hatfield town centre and Hilltop redevelopments - and the planned football stadium at Angerland Common)

- Impacts on levels of physical activity and exercise (discourage walkers and ramblers from using the hilltop and paths around New Barnfield and Strawberry Fields; also discourage users of Millennium Park, Millwards)

- Access to services, including education (loss of the Central Resources Library; 'temporary' move of Southfields School)

- Access to green space (planned remodelling of the Travellers Lane access road will make it more hazardous to cyclists and walkers using the footpath)

- Changes to social networks (already families are selling up and moving away from the town; loss of the Central Resources Library as a community centre)

As you can see from the observations in brackets above, all these impacts would be made by the building of a waste incinerator at New Barnfield.

The assessment will also include any widening any existing inequalities in health. And the vulnerable children, mentally and physically, at Southfield School are likely to be the worst affected.

PLEASE ATTEND ONE OF THESE WORKSHOPS

IF YOU CANNOT ATTEND, PLEASE MAKE YOUR VIEWS KNOWN TO ERM

Write to:
Nicola Finlay, ERM, 2nd floor, Exchequer Court, 33 St Mary Axe, LONDON, EC3A 8AA.
Telephone: 020 3206 5308
Email: nicola.finlay@erm.com

 
2. HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL WASTE STRATEGY - INDEPENDENT EXAMINATION IN PUBLIC
 
The Examination of Hertfordshire County Council's Waste Strategy will take place at County Hall, Hertford, and will last for two weeks (excluding Mondays and Friday afternoons). Hearings start at 10:00 (10 am) on Tuesday, 15 November 2011, and an independent inspector will examine the Waste Core Strategy.

Members of the public who submitted responses to the Public Consultation on this Waste Strategy (held Nov/Dec 2010) can speak at the hearings if they wish, but need to tell the programme officer in advance.
(Contact: Mary Minnis, Programme Officer, Room 7a, County Hall, Hertford. Telephone: 01992 556408. Email: programme.officer@hertscc.gov.uk)
 
Some members of Hatfield against Incineration committee, Herts WithOut Waste, other residents, consultants speaking for us, and representatives of Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council will be attending the hearings on appropriate days and speaking when relevant. Some have sent in Hearing Statements in advance, which - along with other documentation - will be posted on www.hertsdirect.org/examdetail (http://www.hertsdirect.org/examdetail).
 
If you intend to speak at the hearings, please tell HAI beforehand (contact details on our website - link below)

The public can attend to listen to the hearings if they wish. On Tuesday, 22 November 2011, the inspector will be considering Areas of Search and the identification of strategic sites. The next day (Wednesday, 23 November) she will be considering Area of Search C, which includes the New Barnfield site.
 
Please note: this is only one step in the process of objecting to the incinerator. Other steps include:

i. Public meetings to contribute to a Health Impact Assessment for the Planning Application (details above).
ii. Veolia's Planning Application - expected in November - is when everyone opposed to an incinerator at New Barnfield should make an objection.
iii. Public Consultation by the Environment Agency, probably also in November, will consider issues in advance of issuing an Environmental Permit.
iv. Further Independent Examination of Herts CC Waste Sites document in 2012.
v. If Veolia’s Planning Application is approved by the Development Control Committee of Herts CC, we shall be expecting the Government to 'call-in' the plan because it is so controversial, and we will be expecting them to reject the plan.
 
Cathy , Secretary, Hafield against Incineration.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on October 25, 2011, 07:08:58 pm
Thanks for keeping us updated trekbat.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on October 26, 2011, 06:06:26 pm
The Waste Core Strategy Examination documents can be found on http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wcsexam/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wcsexam/)

There is a link from the menu on the left of this page to the Hearing Statements.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 27, 2011, 11:57:14 am
Thank you, EvieMay. Personally, I'd rather not be spending my time learning about the meaning of, and differences between, MSW (Municipal Solid Waste) and IBA (Incinerator Bottom Ash), and all the rest of the garbage assorted with Herts waste and the Veolia incinerator. And the various meetings aren't exactly a barrel of laughs either (if I have to live my life again, when it comes to this point and given the choice of doing it all again or gouging an eye out with a rusty spoon I'm going to have to take a moment to consider the options).


Unfortunately, our elected representatives don't seem to be keeping the people they are supposed to represent informed about matters that will have a serious impact on the area. Nor do they seem to be spending much time showing visible leadership to - in cases - very worried people who have already seen the biggest investment in their lives (their homes) devalued, and a developing threat to their own and their family's health.


At the special meeting of the WHBC Environment Overview and Scrutiny (EOS) Committee on Monday, 10 October 2011, there were four 10-minute presentations from representatives from HCC, Veolia, HAI and WHEN (Welwyn Hatfield Environment Network) with questions after each presentation. It was noticeable that following a break after the proponents (HAI and Veolia) presentations a number of councillors and council leaders left ie. they didn't bother to wait to hear what the opposing arguments were from citizen groups. Interestingly, John Dean, when asking a question before the break, did say something to the effect that they knew Hatfield would end up getting picked (it was the reference site in the tender - and an electoral lame duck).


At an emotionally-charged Veolia meeting yesterday, during the Veolia presentation on the reasons for choosing New Barnfield, they threw in a couple of trump cards (resistance is futile, you will be incinerated) with slides on their plants in South Staffordshire (Four Ashes) and Newhaven (South Down) both built but not yet operational on the edge of greenbelt and with residences within 150m (New Barnfield the closest residence is apparently 250m away). The Newhaven facility is built on the edge of the South Downs and went through in the face of tough opposition including a Judicial Review (I've included some links below).


The sight of these plants literally reduced some of the group to tears. Hatfield has been suffering the death by a thousand cuts for years, the town doesn't have the strength or resources to match that of multinational conglomerate Veolia (or the more affluent areas of Hertfordshire). Especially, as it has the backing of Hertfordshire County Council - who are pulling out all the stops to help them. The second part of the meeting was pretty much an impassioned plea for mercy. HAI member Adrienne Nix gave a very moving description of the impact that the proposals would have on the lives of ordinary people near the plant, and those visiting the graves of their loved ones at Welwyn Hatfield Lawn Cemetery. It moved the 2 Veolia reps, 3 contractors and 2 Herts Waste Partnership attendees but it is unlikely to change anything. The other attendees present were five area residents (including 2 HAI).


None of the representatives of Hertfordshire County Council, Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council or Hatfield Town Council were present at the meeting.


Brookmans Park probably seems far removed from Hatfield with Welham Green in between. However, we share a common history going back decades (if not centuries). Welham Green is too small and also not particularly well placed to fight this off (possibly the reason they are likely to be worst affected in terms of visual blight). Frankly, I'm hoping people in BP will saddle up and help slay this dragon - if for no better reason that it's the right thing to do.


Part of the fight may be turning up the heat on our elected representatives and leaders. But apart from dragging them over the coals or holding their feet to the fire, the process is reaching a key stage with the independent examination (for which I hear WHBC Planning Department has been making strenuous efforts), and the formal full Planning Application which is expected to be handed in next month.


External links:

2 August 2010
"The contract for the brand new power plant in South Staffordshire has been signed paving the way for the controversial waste-to-energy plant to have construction begin on it...Despite rampant objections from local environmental groups, planning permission for the Four Ashes facility has already been secured. Work on the plant will begin in the spring amidst concern that the plant will only further create more pollution."

http://www.recycle.co.uk/news/2470000.html (http://www.recycle.co.uk/news/2470000.html)


23 July 2008
"Thousands of campaigners yesterday (July 22) had their hopes of blocking controversial plans for a waste incinerator in Newhaven dashed by a High Court judge.

Local campaign group, Dove 2000 Ltd, Newhaven Town council and the Lewes branch of Friends of the Earth were backed by a cohort of residents in their opposition to the scheme, which will see the construction of a "mass burn" incinerator capable of handling 242,000 tonnes of waste per year...Mr Justice Sullivan yesterday (July 22) dismissed the judicial review challenge to the scheme, despite observing: "This cause has generated the most public interest of any planning application ever dealt with by East Sussex County Council. The number of objectors is numbered in thousands."...The ruling was welcomed by Veolia Environmental Services, which said in a statement: "We are pleased with the decision from the Judge on this matter. We will endeavour to build this much-needed facility for the communities of East Sussex and Brighton & Hove to ensure they have a place for their residual household waste to go as local landfill is running out."

http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/waste-management/court-rules-in-favour-of-veolias-newhaven-incinerator (http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/waste-management/court-rules-in-favour-of-veolias-newhaven-incinerator)


Table of Potential, Existing and Prevented Incinerators
http://ukwin.org.uk/resources/table/ (http://ukwin.org.uk/resources/table/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on October 27, 2011, 01:24:16 pm
It is so very wrong that in a democratic country we have been denied a voice in this matter. Yes, we can all object to the planning application, but Veolia & HCC combined have such power, they have the money & time to lobby councilors & officials. Surely it would have been fair to have given us a chance to object to the choosing of New Barnfield as a reference site in the first place but this was completely denied to us. Our children & grandchildren will be breathing in micro particles of goodness knows what - how can it be right to place such a construction so close to homes and schools. I believe that the area of maximum impact from the fallout will be 1Km from the site, but the whole of Hatfield /North Mymms wil be affected, I don't know about you but I will be stopping growing vegetables in the garden, I don't want to breathe it AND ingest it. I read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring back in the 60s - have we still not learnt the lesson? :'(
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on October 27, 2011, 10:20:29 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15431450 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15431450)

interesting to see..bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 28, 2011, 04:20:50 pm
27/10/2011
"Vinci Environment UK has been selected to design and build two major waste treatment facilities, worth £330m, in Hertfordshire and North Yorkshire...In Hertfordshire, Vinci Environment UK has been appointed by Veolia Environmental Services to design and build a future waste treatment centre in Hatfield...Work is due to start on site in late 2013, with entry into service scheduled for spring 2016."

http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/contract-news/vinci-signs-for-330m-waste-incinerators (http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/contract-news/vinci-signs-for-330m-waste-incinerators)

13 October 2011
Sita Cornwall incinerator move overturned by High Court
"The £117m scheme at St Dennis was refused by the former county council, but the government overturned the decision...Judge Mr Justice Collins said that when Communities Secretary Eric Pickles overturned the county council's decision, he had not properly considered whether the EU Habitats Directive required special assessment to be carried out before permission was granted."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-15292820 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-15292820)

Unfortunately, as was the case with Veolia's South Down plant this may not be the final word.

Given that the nation's fortunes (and personal ones) are not likely to recover any time soon, it is likely supermarket groups will look for ways and means to reduce prices - like cutting out unnecessary packaging (like plastic trays for meat or wrapping cucumbers in clingfilm). Also, people are consuming less. In the meantime, in the absence of a national policy or framework,  incinerators are springing up around the country - will there be enough waste for them all to burn (bearing in mind local authorities will be contracted to supply a certain level of waste - or pay a penalty)?

Motorists paying ever increasing amounts due to ever increasing fuel prices may want to pause to reflect that if we, as a nation, weren't using so much oil to make plastics then there would be less demand for oil and prices would fall. Of course, if we keep incinerating plastic waste rather than recycling it we'll need to keep prices high.

Unfortunately, we're living in a time where a person's style seems to count for more than their substance (and that is particularly true of politicians).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peter Hastings on November 01, 2011, 09:08:34 am
Veolia have been asked to give a presentation at the next meeting of the North Mymms Parish Council. This will be held on 16th November at 7pm at the North Mymms Youth and Community Centre.

Like all Parish Council meetings, this will be open to the public to watch, but will follow normal rules which means that members of the public will not be allowed to speak or ask questions. This is a chance to see what Veolia have to say and how they respond to questions put by your local elected representatives.

I can offer absolutely no guarantees and speak for no outside group, but if anyone wants to contact me directly with suggested questions I shall certainly consider them. It would help if these were particular and were backed with facts and authorities where relevant.



Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 02, 2011, 02:38:50 pm
I understand Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) would also like to present their case at the meeting and are contacting the Parish Council directly.

Please consider asking the following questions:

1. How long does it take to shut the incinerator down once a warning for one of the monitored toxins is sounded?

2. The standard position from the Environment Agency is that well-run modern incinerators should pose no health problems. How can anyone have faith that Veolia will run the plant 'well' when according the Health & Safety Executive online databases it has racked up 4 prosecutions and 24 enforcement notices (including at least one fatal accident)?


Parish Councillors may also wish to consider a document listed under HCC's Waste Management Cabinet Panel meeting of Thursday, 28 April 2011 (2Mb Word document).
http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/wastmanpnl/16802740/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/wastmanpnl/16802740/)

On page 45 there is also an interesting quote from the Environment Agency: "Waste incinerator operators have improved their environmental performance greatly in recent years. They used to be the largest producers of harmful substances called Dioxins, but these days, they're among the lowest."

As far as I know, when incinerators were emitting Dioxins (highly toxic - reference the Seveso accident) - as they NOW openly admit - no government agency sounded the alarm.


Incidentally, this week's Welwyn Hatfield Times is headlining an article about the land covenant as a possibly basis for legal action. However, they have previously reported that HCC has the authority to override it, so I wouldn't put too much store into the unearthing of the actual document.

22 April 2011: "Currently the council is attempting to vary the covenant to allow the scheme to proceed."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/covenant_on_land_at_hatfield_s_new_barnfield_will_not_stop_incinerator_1_873437 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/covenant_on_land_at_hatfield_s_new_barnfield_will_not_stop_incinerator_1_873437)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 09, 2011, 03:14:16 pm
Back to reality and as suspected, last week's WHT cover story turns out to be a complete non-event. Or perhaps it was a smokescreen to cover the abject failure of our elected representatives to snuff out this half-baked idea.

New legal challenge to halt Hatfield incinerator
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/new_legal_challenge_to_halt_hatfield_incinerator_1_1119260 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/new_legal_challenge_to_halt_hatfield_incinerator_1_1119260)

In this week's edition, on the back page,  they have confirmed that HCC is simply going to bulldoze their way through the covenant (as they reported back in April).

There are better things to do with waste than simply burning it (some alternatives are quite inspired - if not necessarily suitable or adaptable to the UK.

Nigeria's plastic bottle house
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14722179 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14722179)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on November 11, 2011, 01:50:00 pm

In this week's edition, on the back page, they have confirmed that HCC is simply going to bulldoze their way through the covenant (as they reported back in April).


The article also reports that initial talks, to change the conditions of the Covenant, between the Homes and Communities Agency and HCC have been "unsuccessful" from HCC's point of view.  Let's hope HCC are going to find that no bulldozer is large enough to move this obstacle to their plans.  But, of course, the cost of this will more than likely be borne by us - the council tax payers of Hertfordshire.     
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 12, 2011, 01:10:36 pm
This is a case where I would love to be proved wrong.

Whatever the outcome, as you rightly point out, we will have to bear the costs. Time will tell if that's physical as well as fiscal.


Some more facts emerged from the last of the scheduled Veolia Community Engagement Group meetings, held on Wednesday:

1. Over the past 2 years, across the six incinerators operated by Veolia, there have been 4 occasions where there has been leaks of monitored toxins for at least half an hour (Veolia reps say they reported the incidents to the Environment Agency who took no further action).

2. Veolia continues to be highly evasive regarding exactly how much time it would take to shut off any pollutants / toxins coming out of the plant should they detect a problem (although to a certain extent that will depend on how much of their command and control system is functioning on the day). They say it takes around 1.5 hours for a normal shutdown.

3. A Veolia rep also admitted there had been incidents of explosions inside their plants due to items like small gas cylinders entering the rubbish stream (on at least one occasion a motorcycle has entered the waste stream at their SE London plant, which suggests their screening is either non-existent or ineffective).

4. There does not appear to be any consideration given to the possibility of disaster, sabotage or terrorism in their (or HCC's) planning process.

5. Once again, there were no elected representatives of HTC, WHBC or WHBC present at the meeting.

6. Traffic assessments to include the returning and new university people were carried out in the second week of October (residents pointed out that this was after Hatfield House entered its closed period). Additionally, traffic models which will be used as part of Veolia's planning bid did NOT take into account any proposed development that did NOT already have planning permission (which means the long-planned football stadium at Angerland Common would not be included - in fact, it may struggle to get planning permission on account of traffic impacts should the incinerator go ahead). Not sure whether the proposed increase in student accommodation (1,500 to 2,500 places) at Bishops Rise, Veolia Water's former office site on the same road (most likely to be developed as accommodation or offices) are included in the traffic models. I think the redevelopment of the Hilltop (also with Bishop Rise frontage) has passed the planning stage so should be included.

7. Photomontages developed using the blimp show the top of the stack will be visible from Ellenbrook Fields nature park, so students on the upper floors of some of the halls of residence on the de Havilland Campus should have a nice view of it. Intriguingly the shots from Hatfield House were taken outside the Old Palace with the gates shut (so surprise, surprise - it was not visible. Although visitors to the house or the rare breeds farm using the new entrance are likely to be able to see it. As are visitors to the West Garden (views of the front of the house and where the Henry Moore exhibition was held).

Finally, here's the latest developments in the ongoing Fukushima industrial disaster (the one the authorities and company concerned no doubt would have reassured residents that it was perfectly safe and we've got all the systems in place to cover any problems).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15705303 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15705303)

[Oops, sorry - published the wrong link to Fukushima earlier]
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 14, 2011, 08:15:35 am
Amazing that HCC (and some other councils) have opted for incineration in response to the EU threat to fine Britain over its over-reliance on landfill (which led to the increase in landfill tax), when they must have known that we're also facing fines over air quality (although it's also worth asking why - given that this is a direct threat to people's health - they are not doing more WITHOUT the threat of fines).

"The government's failure to meet EU standards on air pollution is "putting the health of UK residents at risk", says the Environmental Audit Committee."

"Bad air quality costs the nation £8.5-20bn per year via poor health, it says, and can cut life expectancy by years."

"Continued failure to meet EU standards could result in swingeing fines..."

"It is often the poorest people in our cities who live near the busiest roads and breath in diesel fumes, dangerous chemicals and bits of tyre every day."

"Recent UK research indicated that tyres and brakes are a significant source of airborne particles, in addition to vehicle exhausts..."

"In 2008, 4,000 people died in London from air pollution and 30,000 died across the whole of the UK."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15693627 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15693627)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on November 14, 2011, 09:36:57 am
Thirty years ago I took the decision to move my young family out of the city as I knew then that the air quality was poor. I have settled here very happily, and now a new generation is about to be born but if this incinerator is allowed, the increase in traffic fumes & related pollution, and the particulate emissions will force us  to rethink, and  the family will have to relocate again. The trouble is property isn't selling - who wants to buy a house where an incinerator might be built?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peter Hastings on November 15, 2011, 12:17:58 pm
Does anyone have evidence of an incinerator being turned down at planning by reason of air quality issues?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on November 16, 2011, 09:51:32 am
Link to article in WH Times on Planning Hearing which commenced yesterday in Hertford

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/public_hearing_on_hertfordshire_s_waste_policy_1_1126965 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/public_hearing_on_hertfordshire_s_waste_policy_1_1126965)

Does anyone know how long the enquiry will last?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on November 16, 2011, 11:52:59 am
Does anyone have evidence of an incinerator being turned down at planning by reason of air quality issues?

At the "consultation" meeting in the North Mymms Memorial Hall the other day, the man appointed to "listen" to our concerns about the incinerator said that he had never known an application turned down on the grounds of environmental or health issued.  I've heard from another source that Veolia have never had an incinerator turned down.   :(
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on November 16, 2011, 11:56:42 am
i posted a page back about an abandoned scheme in wales due to issues...is this of interest to you...bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on November 16, 2011, 01:04:02 pm
  I've heard from another source that Veolia have never had an incinerator turned down.   :(

Yes it has!  See http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/decisionsplanning/secretarystate/recentsecretary/ruffordcolliery/ (http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/decisionsplanning/secretarystate/recentsecretary/ruffordcolliery/)

A summary of the decision can also be found on http://ukwin.org.uk/2011/05/29/pickles-rejects-sherwood-forest-incinerator/ (http://ukwin.org.uk/2011/05/29/pickles-rejects-sherwood-forest-incinerator/)

The campaign group against this incinerator have a very interesting website at http://www.p-a-in.co.uk/ (http://www.p-a-in.co.uk/)

All the information about HCC's Waste Strategy Examination can be found at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wcsexam/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wcsexam/)  including details of the sessions to be held from 15 - 25 November
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on November 16, 2011, 04:34:49 pm
A piece of good news for a change - thank you, Ex Libris.   And BP I'll look at your reference to the scheme in Wales.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 17, 2011, 08:04:20 am
Veolia aren't waiting for the independent examination to finish and have submitted their planning application.

"Hatfield incinerator planning application submitted...The county council will publish details of the application and how to take part in the consultation in the next few weeks."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_planning_application_submitted_1_1128334 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_planning_application_submitted_1_1128334)

Get ready to sharpen your nibs to tell them we don't want their money-making wheeze (given concerns over air pollution, 'wheeze' is the operative word) in our borough.

Across the globe the news from Fukushima gets worse:

"Radioactive caesium has been detected above the safety level in rice for the first time in Japan since the nuclear crisis began at the Fukushima plant. The sample came from a Fukushima city farm about 60km from the plant. The government is considering banning shipments from the area it was found."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15769321 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15769321)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: JLC on November 17, 2011, 12:13:32 pm
Along with atleast 100 others I attended the Veolia presentation to the North Mymms Parish Council. 

Reading the posts above, one of the issues bothering us all is whether the planning appliction is a "done deal".  With this in mind and given that a contract has been entered into between Veolia and HCC, one of the questions I asked was who bears the risk of a succesful planning application not being achieved.
 
The answer given by Veolia's representative was that the was Veolia's risk.  I was surprised by this response so I had a look at the Full Business case, which is on HCC's website at http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/h/hwpp.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/h/hwpp.pdf), where I found the following statement:

"Planning failure is a risk for the Authority (although the compensation non [sic] termination is capped as noted above)."   The reference to compensation on termination is to a paragraph that states (amongst other things) "Compensation for termination for planning failure is capped but remains a risk for the Authority in the event of planning failure."  It would be interesting to know what the cap is.

The Business Case goes on to say "Planning delay where the Contractor has used All Reasonable Endeavours in accordance with Schedule 26 is an Authority retained risk"  and " XX% of costs of any Proceedings above the Appeal Contingency are borne by the Authority in accordance with the standard provisions of WIDP’s Schedule 26 (Planning)"

So my understanding is that planning risk is patently not a risk for Veolia.  It could be construed as a shared risk but the reality is that it is a major risk for the "Authority" or HCC.

Given this, surely the planning approval is inevitable as to unwind a PFI post financial close doesn't come cheap...

James
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 18, 2011, 10:08:38 am
I hear from HAI and other sources that WHBC has devoted the efforts and resources of its planning department to opposing HCC's proposals at the Independent Examiner's hearings (however, I fear that they have left it far too late).

WHBC have stated their intention to refer the planning application to build the plant to central government. However, Eric Pickles' record is chequered (having overruled one council's decision NOT to build an incinerator).

I believe our best bet is a legal challenge.

It's unlikely that dealing in the commercial business of waste disposal is part of HCC's statutory duty or remit (apart from the disposal of Herts waste). However, that does seem to be what they are attempting to engage in (in partnership with Veolia - which is likely to give VES a commercial advantage when they tender for N. London waste contracts as it'll reduce travelling distances between client and disposal site, and their costs. Hence the overcapacity of the plant when recycling rates are increasing and average consuming decreasing).

Consider the facts:
- there is far more industrial / commercial waste than MSW (municipal solid waste / household waste);
- there is no cross-Hertfordshire rail link to make rail transport a viable option (and indeed Veolia's bid has no provision for transport by rail) or water access (reducing road journeys was a key feature of the HCC's Waste Strategy);
- it also requires as short as possible distance from where the waste originates to where it is disposed.

Then logically a plant for Hertfordshire should be close to the greatest concentration of industry and commerce and a geographically more central location (which suggests a site between WGC and Hertford).

So why did they choose New Barnfield if not for the simple reasons that Hatfield - with its twin-town governance - was a soft target and ideally located to take waste from London?

The facts seem to support this explanation:

- HCC's specification of using a technology with a proven track record undermines their claim to have been 'technology neutral', and gives incineration bids an edge.
- As Ex Libris has pointed out (Reply #181), the Environment Agency objected to Harper Lane on 24/12/2009 during the consultation phase. The Environment Agency is one of the licensing bodies for incinerators, so if they have an objection then it is either crass stupidity or a deliberate attempt to decide the outcome by selecting a non-starter as the other short list finalist.

James mentioned the cost of unpicking a PFI contract (already condemned in parliament as a more expensive form of financing). However, what will the cost to taxpayers be (not to mention physical harm and disruption) if we have a Fukushima-like incident where pollutants are dispersed - due to accident, sabotage or terrorism - across a broad swathed of residential and agricultural areas?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on November 18, 2011, 02:11:38 pm

It would be interesting to know what the cap is.


James – you could submit a Freedom of Information request to HCC to find out.  See http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/work/foi/requests/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/work/foi/requests/)  However they have the right to deny information if they consider it to be “commercially sensitive”.

A similar presentation to the one given to the North Mymms Parish Council is to be found on http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/Community-Engagement-Group/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/Community-Engagement-Group/) under Andrew Milsted's presentation - Community Engagement Group 17/08/11

Some people who attended the presentation asked about what kind of waste would be treated and another queried the times that the facility would be operating.

The following is from http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/r/schar.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/r/schar.pdf)
(this document is part of the Residual Waste Treatment Contract which can be found at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/future/docs/rwtcontract/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/waste/future/docs/rwtcontract/))

Contract Waste
11. Contract Waste, is defined in Schedule 1 (Definitions). Without limitation or prejudice to that definition it will comprise of authorised residual MSW which could include: -
a) Household Waste;
b) Household bulky items;
c) Commercial Waste;
d) Industrial Waste;
e) Waste delivered from Household Waste Recycling Centres (“HWRC”);
f) Litter and refuse from the cleansing and maintenance of public highways, public areas, footpaths, footways, public parks, and like areas;
g) Fly-tipped Waste;
h) Animal Carcasses;
i) Road channel detritus from road sweepings and gully emptying vehicles (including non-detritus type wastes) delivered by the Waste Partnership including mechanical brush wastes;
j) Tyres;
k) Separately collected municipal clinical waste;
l) Waste collected from or delivered by registered charities, schools or other approved organisations;
m) Contaminants from the Authority’s mixed dry recyclate processing;
n) Other waste collected by or on behalf of the Authority from time to time;
o) Ad Hoc Waste;

12. Contract Waste may contain small quantities of Hazardous Waste.

Delivery
3.26 The Contractor shall accept Contract Waste delivered by an Authorised Vehicle during the Opening Hours agreed for specified Delivery Points as noted below.
Operating Opening Hours: Monday to Sunday (including Bank Holidays) - 05.00 to 21.00

3.27 The Contractor shall accept Contract Waste from time to time for short periods outside the normal Opening Hours provided always that such requests from the Authority are reasonable and consistent with all Consents to deal with unforeseen delays in the delivery pattern of waste collection vehicles.


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: JLC on November 18, 2011, 03:43:12 pm

It would be interesting to know what the cap is.


James – you could submit a Freedom of Information request to HCC to find out.  See http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/work/foi/requests/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/work/foi/requests/)  However they have the right to deny information if they consider it to be “commercially sensitive”.

Thanks Ex-Libiris - Since I posted the message above I have found the signed PFI contract with Veolia and have able to track through to the compensation on termination provisons for failed planning.  Sadly the interesting provisons are redacted out which makes me think any FoI request would be blocked on commercially sensitive grounds.

Given the current Government's transparency agenda I am surprised by the level of redaction in the Full Business Case and the Contract.  It makes it virtually impossible for us to understand what is going on behind closed doors within HCC.  In that vein para 26.6.2 of SoPC4 (the standard form for PFI contacts) states...

"The requirements of Open Government suggest that PFI Contracts should be placed in the public domain as far as possible. Only “commercially sensitive” information, information the dissemination of which is contrary to the public interest or information which is personally private should be withheld. In the PFI context the key concern relates generally to “commercially sensitive” information and (for defence related projects particularly) issues of national security."

One has to question whether HCC and Veolia have fully complied with the spirit of Open Government here?

The level of redaction also means that I can't see what the current status of the finance for the plant is.  Does anyone know if the project has actually got to financial close and whether fees have been paid, swaps taken out etc etc?  Clearly these items could significantly increase the breakage costs that the Authority might be exposed to which would further influence its behavious when considering the planning application?

James
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peter Hastings on November 20, 2011, 09:35:16 pm
Does anyone have evidence of an incinerator being turned down at planning by reason of air quality issues?

At the "consultation" meeting in the North Mymms Memorial Hall the other day, the man appointed to "listen" to our concerns about the incinerator said that he had never known an application turned down on the grounds of environmental or health issued.  I've heard from another source that Veolia have never had an incinerator turned down.   :(

Yes I was at that meeting that's why I wondered if anyone had any evidence to contradict the "expert"
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on November 21, 2011, 10:01:48 am
Have a look at the minutes of the Community Engagement Group meeting held on 26.10.11, particularly point 5.4 : -

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_261011%20Final.pdf (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_261011%20Final.pdf)

There it is stated that only 2 applications have been turned down, one of which has been overturned & Veoilia is challenging the other one.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 22, 2011, 01:14:50 pm
Can't say I know the answers to JLC's questions.

However, the slides from an HAI presentation (28/09/11) to Veolia's Community Engagement Group (CEG) provide an alternative solution.

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/Community-Engagement-Group/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/Community-Engagement-Group/)


HAI presentation Part 2, Slide 3 mentions that HCC effectively signed a contract for an incinerator with Veolia BEFORE they had finalised their own Waste Strategy, which should be another grounds for a legal challenge (as it supports the case that HCC decided the type of disposal facilitity - an incinerator - and its location, and then proceeded to draw up their Waste Strategy to support it).

HCC, Herts Waste Partnership (basically all the other councils that have rubbish to dispose off but don't won't this thing near them), and Veolia have been saying all along that it's all just one big coincidence [meanwhile, overhead, the all female aerobatic display team, the Red Farrows, do a trotter-over and break hard right before launching into that old crowd pleaser, Devils on Horseback, while streaming red smoke - or it might be unsmoked bacon].

However, HCC's cart before the horse approach is bound to come up at the Independent Examination that is going on. Be interesting to see how this pans out. I'm not sure how it came about. It may be the answer to our prayers or a sneaky way of rubberstamping the clearly questionable conduct of HCC.

Incidentally, according to my latest waste collection dates leaflet, since the 3-bin recycling scheme was launched in WHBC recycling rates have increased to over 50% and the volume of waste sent to landfill has reduced by 38%.

However, Welwyn Hatfield (and Harlow) are apparently the only areas in East of England that do NOT recycle Tetra Paks (liquid cartons).

http://www.tetrapakrecycling.co.uk/locator.asp (http://www.tetrapakrecycling.co.uk/locator.asp)


Add in at least one pub in Hatfield that says they don't recycle their bottles as WHBC would charge them £600-700 extra for a dedicated bottle bin, and it's 'plane' that if they went the whole hog they could easily reduce the amount of waste we need to landfill / incinerate.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on November 22, 2011, 03:43:03 pm
Check this link   http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/)

It says
We have now received a planning application (with environmental statement) for an energy from waste facility at New Barnfield, Hatfield. The application was submitted and received on 15 November 2011.

We are currently in the process of validating and registering the application. We estimate that this will take approximately two weeks. Once the application is considered to be valid we will carry out a public consultation process.

Further details of the validation and planning processes as well as public consultation can be found using the menu to the left.

The planning application will be published on the web via our ATRIUM system and we also make the information available via links on this page. The ATRIUM search page link is shown below:
www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do (http://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do)

We anticipate that this information will be available to be viewed here from 5 December 2011 and that public consultation will start then and last until the end of January 2012.

We intend to give consulation period of over 6 weeks
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LuckyDuck on November 22, 2011, 05:20:31 pm
Well i found out a few years ago that Hcc team were looking at either hatfield location or in st albans. Seems the st albans lot kicked up enough to have it moved to hatfield. And probs due to the money for the contract.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on November 25, 2011, 09:03:10 am
Hatfield Against Incineration (I think it should be Hatfield/Welham Green/ Colney Heath & Brookmans Park Against Incineration - it will affect us all) will shortly be distributing leaflets to encourage residents to write letters  to object to the planning application. I believe that the Green Belt Society will be doing the same. PLEASE write one letter for each person in the house - petitions only count as one letter - we need as many individual letters as we can get. It was stated at the Parish Council meeting last week that a town in Norfolk had their application for a similar thing overturned because the council received 63,000 letters of complaint. It is very unfortunate that the limited time we have to object to the plans falls over the Christmas period but PLEASE PLEASE get those letters written before they get forgotten in the coming festivities. In coming years we could have more than snow in the air at Christmas if we don't win this battle.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 26, 2011, 10:53:22 am
Urgent Anti-Incinerator Campaign Message:

Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) meetings to discuss approval of the Waste Sites Allocation document (which recommends New Barnfield as an incinerator site), and the temporary relocation of Southfield School (to help the planning permission process to build the incinerator):

1. Monday, 28 November 2011 - Cabinet (14:00 / 2 pm in Committee Room B)

2. Tuesday, 29 November 2011 - Full Council (10:30 / 10.30 am)

Both meetings will be held at County Hall, Pegs Lane, Hertford, SG13 8DN
 
PLEASE TRY TO ATTEND EITHER OR BOTH THESE MEETINGS AS WE NEED SOME PEOPLE TO HEAR WHAT OUR COUNCILLORS SAY (key HAI personnel are attending the Independent Examination meetings)

You will not be able to speak, but you can sit in the committee room for Cabinet, or in the public gallery of the Council Chamber for Council, and listen to what the County Councillors say.

You might like to contact your County Councillors before this meeting, to tell them your views on the proposal to build an incinerator at New Barnfield.

Local members of County Council for the Welwyn/Hatfield area are:

Stuart Pile (Hatfield South)
8 Lavender Close, Hatfield, AL10 9FW
Tel: 01707 260125
Email: stuart.pile@hertscc.gov.uk


Bill Storey (Hatfield Rural)
55 Holloways Lane, North Mymms, AL9 7NR
Tel: 01707 694951
Email: bill.storey@hertscc.gov.uk

 
Clare Berry (Hatfield North)
9 Daffodil Close, Hatfield, AL10 9FF
Tel: 01707 259843
Email: clare.berry@hertscc.gov.uk

 
Richard Smith, (Welwyn)
4 Kindersley Close, Welwyn,
Tel:  01438 714323
Email: richard.smith@hertscc.gov.uk

[Clare Berry and Richard Smith are members of the Herts CC Development & Control Committee, which will be judging Veolia’s Planning Application. If they express a view on the issue they may need to stand down from this panel, so tell them your views, but do not press them to express a view]
 
Sara Johnston (Haldens)
58 Dawley, Welwyn Garden City, AL7 1DZ
Tel: 01707 892646
Email: sara.johnston@hertscc.gov.uk
 
Steve Markiewicz (WGC South)
The Holte End, 37 Church Street, Welwyn, AL6 9LS
Tel: 01438 717377
Email: steven.markiewicz@hertscc.gov.uk
[Steve Markiewicz (Con) has supported us on previous occasions]


Malcolm Cowan (Handside & Peartree)
6 Lytton Gardens, Welwyn Garden City, AL8 6EG
Tel: 01707 324723
Email: malcolm.cowan@hertscc.gov.uk
[Malcolm Cowan (Lib/Dem) has supported us on previous occasions]


If you are not sure who your local HCC councillor enter your postcode on the Council website
http://www.hertsdirect.org/actweb/postcode/postcode.cfm (http://www.hertsdirect.org/actweb/postcode/postcode.cfm)
 

Remember: Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, Hatfield Town Council, local Parish Councils, and local MP Grant Shapps are all say they are opposed to an incinerator being built at New Barnfield.

If HertsCC Cabinet and Council approve this Waste Sites Allocations Document, it will then go out to Public Consultation, from January 2012 for 6 weeks.

Please note: that this Consultation on the Waste Sites Allocations Document is additional to the Planning Application process.

Veolia’s Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield will be made public on 5 December 2011, and members of the public and organisations will have from this date till 31 January 2012 to lodge their objections.

HAI will be giving advice on making objections to this planning application as soon as we have seen it. The advice will be on their website, and in leaflets delivered to homes.

 
Cathy, Sec, Hatfield against Incineration
www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Please look at our website for updates on the campaign
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Pollyanna on November 26, 2011, 01:24:06 pm
George Osborne stated unequivocally on 21 September 2010 that he was 'wholly opposed' to the building of a waste incinerator in Northwich, his Tatton constituency. David Cameron, when asked by Fiona Bruce, MP for Congleton about the waste incinerator on 30 March 2011 : ' Does the Prime Minister agree that the concerns of local people over the negative impact that it will have on their town should be afforded paramount importance when the proposal is considered on appeal?' was answered as follows:

The Prime Minister's reply: I agree with my hon. friend that local considerations should be taken into account. That is one reason why we have made the changes to the Infrastructure Planning Commission. It is important that local communities have their say, and she has put the case extremely strongly.

How is it possible then, given the opinions of these high ranking tory MPs (Cameron and Osborne) that a County Council can just do whatever they please with no regard to the people of that county? Is this country a democracy or is it not?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 27, 2011, 11:37:45 am
That's because there's a yawning chasm between what are supposed to be OUR representatives say and do.

John Dean, leader of WHBC, professes to be opposed to the incinerator (as do other members of Conservative controlled HTC, WHBC and HCC - in public).

At the special meeting of the WHBC Environment Overview and Scrutiny (EOS) Committee on Monday, 10 October 2011, there were four 10-minute presentations from representatives from HCC, Veolia, HAI and WHEN (Welwyn Hatfield Environment Network) with questions after each presentation. It was noticeable that following a break after the proponents (HAI and Veolia) presentations a number of councillors and council leaders left (including John and Irene Dean) ie. they didn't bother to wait to hear what the opposing arguments were from citizen groups.

Interestingly, John Dean, when asking a question before the break, did say something to the effect that he knew Hatfield would end up getting picked from the start (not entirely surprising as 3 out of the 4 waste site nominated in HCC's Waste Strategy for WHBC were in Hatfield - including New Barnfield and across the road from it).

How odd then that if you look through back issues of Welwyn Hatfield Life there's very little coverage of the issue (the same is true of HTC's publication, while the HCC one had a misleading article by Derrick Ashley who heads up the waste committee).

Ask yourself what have our elected leaders done to raise awareness and mobilise people in the borough to oppose this monstrosity? Lack of awareness about the incinerator is still a factor despite HAI's best efforts (incidentally, it was called that as the group was started in Hatfield).

I think if there had been proactive leadership then Veolia would never have thought to build an incinerator next to a densely populated residential area (although I suspect they were given a nod and a wink - before people at WHBC realised how wide an area would be adversely affected, and how toxic an election issue it would become).

Equally surprising is how poorly informed people on this board seemed to be about the incinerator.

According to local media reports Councillor Dean appears to run the council with an iron fist.

Welwyn Hatfield Council ‘a complete dictatorship’ - Monday, October 10, 2011
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_a_complete_dictatorship_1_1084959 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_a_complete_dictatorship_1_1084959)

Council leader’s warning to Tory colleagues
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_leader_s_warning_to_tory_colleagues_1_1133497 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_leader_s_warning_to_tory_colleagues_1_1133497)

Interesting how John Dean has replaced one of the sacked councillors with his wife - ensuring party 'loyalty' and boosting the family fortunes at the same time. If wpd's remark in the comments section is correct, she now sits on 8 panels / committees. However, she is more popular than her husband.

"THE leader of Welwyn Hatfield Council proved to be the least popular Tory in his ward – even being beaten by his own wife. John Dean received 1,476 votes – 23 less than his wife Irene, who were both duly re-elected to represent Brookmans Park and Little Heath"
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/video_leader_loses_family_popularity_contest_1_10477 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/video_leader_loses_family_popularity_contest_1_10477)

Given the firm grasp he has on the tiller perhaps someone can explain why WHBC did not insist that HCC kick start the Hatfield town centre redevelopment - something that he has claimed was a "top priority" back in December 2008 ( http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/letter_from_council_leader_john_dean_1_20005 (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/letter_from_council_leader_john_dean_1_20005) ) - and move the Central Resources Library there (they're spending over £2.1m refurbishing the WGC main library alone - cost of the logistics centre for the rest is yet to be made public).

WHBC capital commitment spending also shows a definite disconnect between public claim and actual spending. However, I am straying off topic (but it is relevant to how we ended up with an incinerator looming large over us).

Welwyn Hatfield (and Harlow) are apparently the only areas in East of England that do NOT recycle Tetra Paks (liquid cartons).
http://www.tetrapakrecycling.co.uk/locator.asp (http://www.tetrapakrecycling.co.uk/locator.asp)

Add in at least one pub in Hatfield that says they don't recycle their bottles as WHBC would charge them £600-700 extra on top of what they already pay for a dedicated bottle bin, and it's plain that we could easily further reduce the amount of waste we need to landfill / incinerate.

Finally, Veolia have corrected their spokesman's statement at the last CEG meeting - over the past two years, across the 6 plants they operate, there have been 6 cases (not 4 as previously stated) of releases of monitored toxins for a period of at least half an hour reported to the Environment Agency.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on November 28, 2011, 09:34:04 am
This afternoon is the meeting of the Herts CC Cabinet, which HAI have asked as many people as possible to attend.  In Committee Room B at the Herts CC offices in Pegs Lane, Hertford, at 2pm.  Possibly boring and frustrating, but it's good to show the strength of the opposition.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on November 28, 2011, 04:19:24 pm
I went to the meeting and, sure enough, the two items went through on the nod.  Well done Stuart Pile, the South Hatfield member, who was the only one who spoke against the decision to move Southfields School to Old Rectory Drive, Hatfield, and the other decision to submit HCC's Waste Site Allocations Development Plan Document to the Secretary of State.  I report this simply as it is, and don't intend to make any political point.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 28, 2011, 06:03:35 pm
I think recognition should also go to Cathy Roe of HAI who had 'primed' Stuart with a question.

It was an intriguing display by Councillor David Lloyd (Resources & Economic Well-being - according to the agenda) who had spoken clearly and with authority on such issues as the sale of land on Harpenden Road, St Albans. Yet when it came to Item 11 (Implications for Southfield Special School, Hatfield following award and formation of a contract under the Hertfordshire Waste Procurement Project), he dropped his head and started mumbling. So much so that he was asked by a member of the watching public to speak up.

As chicken legs has stated it was pretty much a rubberstamping exercise - there was no real debate or discussion.

The panel referred to the negative feedback to the idea - particularly from people close to where the school would temporarily be moved to - and pretty much dismissed it out of hand, saying they had to consider the children's best interests (given a LibDem motion to remove New Barnfield from the site list on the basis that it was next to a special needs school was defeated by a Conservative majority - according to press reports - that was rather rich in hypocrisy).

As were suggestions that school staff thought moving the children was also in their best interests. Firstly, I have no doubt that the staff's honest opinion would be the best thing is NOT to move them in the first place. Secondly, given that they are HCC employees they are very limited in what they can and cannot say (no doubt speaking out is likely to be rather career-limiting).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Pollyanna on November 28, 2011, 10:16:37 pm
I have done some digging and Veolia's track record is far from reassuring. Consider the following: In July 2007 there was a major chemical fire at a Veolia waste management centre in Preston which resulted in the temporary closure of two motorways, the M6 and the M55, and the evacuation of 20,000 people. Traffic was gridlocked for 3 hours while 66 firefighters attended the incident. After an inquiry, Veolia were fined a total of £150,000 plus £90,000 costs but the cost to the local authority was estimated to be about £4 million!! (think about that HCC).

In April 2007 fire crews fought a blaze which broke out at a large waste transfer station belonging to VES inDerby where 200,000 tonnes of rubbish caught fire.

In July 2008 The Cambridge News reported a 'toxic smoke scare' after a chemical fire at an industrial premises owned by Veolia Environmental Services.

In March 2009 the Birmingham Mail reported a fire at a Veolia facility in Small Heath where a factory was totally destroyed by the blaze.

In the US, in May 2009  in West Carrollton, Ohio, VES were reported as 'groping for answers as to what caused the explosion and fire that alarmed neighbours for miles and caused damage to more than a dozen homes within a mile radius.'

The Polaris Institute of Canada conducted a corporate profile of Veolia and I quote a paragraph from that document:

'As documented above, VE has a poor social and environmental track record. To counter this VE uses its affiliations with organisations like the UN (Global Compact) and the World Water Council (see political profile below) to project an image of a caring, responsible and green corporation. Through these affiliations and with the help of numerous advertising and public relations agencies around the world, VE has had some success in promoting water privatisation while hiding their questionable social and environmental track record.'

Makes interesting reading eh? Do we really want this organisation running one of their 'facilities'  just a mile or two down the road from us? I think not.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on November 28, 2011, 11:21:06 pm

It was an intriguing display by Councillor David Lloyd (Resources & Economic Well-being - according to the agenda) who had spoken clearly and with authority on such issues as the sale of land on Harpenden Road, St Albans. Yet when it came to Item 11 (Implications for Southfield Special School, Hatfield following award and formation of a contract under the Hertfordshire Waste Procurement Project), he dropped his head and started mumbling. So much so that he was asked by a member of the watching public to speak up.


I emailed the Chairman, Cllr Robert Gordon, and copied it to Cllr David Lloyd, when I came home, explaining that I found it shocking that Mr Lloyd totally ignored the request from a member of the public to speak more loudly.  Also, my disappointment that the Chairman had not ensured that he did raise his voice.

Cllr Gordon has replied:

"I was sorry to receive your e-mail. I heard your request for David to speak up and saw him sit up in his seat and address his voice directly towards the microphone. As there was no further request to him to speak up, I assumed that the issue was resolved."

I certainly didn't see Mr Lloyd sit up in his seat and address his voice directly towards the microphone".  Did you, Trekbat?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Liqourice on November 29, 2011, 11:51:23 am
just a though would a household rubbih tip be  better?? theres not enough of those around here
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on November 29, 2011, 03:44:04 pm
We attended the County Council meeting this morning.

The Council were approving their Minerals and Waste Development Framework document to be put forward to the Secretary of State for approval.  Cllr Malcolm Cowan proposed an amendment removing New Barnfield from the document.

Cllr Pile, who represents Hatfield South (including Welham Green), supported the amendment and is opposed to the siting of the incinerator.  Cllr Storey, who represents  Hatfield Rural (including Brookmans Park) voted against the amendment.  When we tackled Cllr Storey yesterday about his apparent support for the incinerator at New Barnfield, his reply was, "Can you suggest somewhere else to put it?".

There were only 25-30 members of the public attending.  However, the meeting was in working hours, and it is to be hoped that we all make a big effort once the chance comes to send our letters to the County Council - after next Monday, 5th December.  Toxic ash and smells and low-level hums travel a long way.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Alex on November 29, 2011, 04:48:34 pm
Well done Chicken Legs and thanks for keeping us posted on this subject.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Grumpy Old Roy on November 29, 2011, 05:04:02 pm
My sincere apologies for not being around but I have been supplementing my meagre state pension, however it’s good news week!!!! I’m back in business.
I have been following the despicable actions of those who one way or another are contributing to the building of the incinerator, actively by supporting it, or silent acquiescence. Our representatives seem to be missing the point over this; they are there to represent our views, if they find our wishes demands and views unacceptable, then resign, a fairly simple procedure for honest councillors with integrity. Perhaps the best way of dealing with is to find and support independent councillors, nothing like a threat of loseing their fiefdoms to make representatives understand local anger.
It will be recalled this has happen before with great success when situations of local councillors or sitting MP ignoring the elector’s views. So, as this is such an important issue perhaps a public meeting without councillors would possibly be the next step. I hope this is not too radical but this may just be the wake call to those with our fate in their hand to realise, it’s our votes that put them there.
I am happy to assist in organising this.
Grumpy Old Roy 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 01, 2011, 09:12:04 am
At Tuesday's HCC meeting, Malcolm Cowan - LibDem, tabled a second proposal, supported by the Labour group, to remove New Barnfield from the list of sites on the basis that it was next to a special needs school.

Actions of WH reps at HCC

Sara Johnston - Conservative, Haldens         
[Did NOT attend]

Malcolm Cowan - Liberal Democrat,   Handside and Peartree   
[Voted and spoke FOR excluding New Barnfield]

Clare Berry - Conservative, Hatfield North
[Voted and spoke AGAINST excluding New Barnfield]

Bill Storey   - Conservative, Hatfield Rural     
[Voted and spoke AGAINST excluding New Barnfield]

Stuart Pile - Conservative, Hatfield South     
[Voted and spoke FOR excluding New Barnfield]

Richard H Smith - Conservative, Welwyn         
[?]

Steven Markiewicz - Conservative,    Welwyn Garden City South   
[Voted and spoke FOR excluding New Barnfield]

Among those speaking AGAINST the motion (apart from Hatfield's own Conservative councillors Clare Berry and Bill Storey) were:
 
Robert Gordon - Conservative Goffs Oak and Bury Green (and Conservative leader of HCC)

David Lloyd - Conservative, Dacorum Borough, Bridgewater

Derrick Ashley - Conservative, Hitchin South (and Conservative chairman of the Waste Management Cabinet Panel)
[Reply #272 refers: chicken legs, no, he didn't seem to change]

Chris Hayward - Conservative,Three Rivers District, Chorleywood

Ian Reay - Conservative, Dacorum Borough, Berkhamsted

Vote result: 20 For exclusion; 43 Against exclusion.


David Lloyd accused the spectators of being a LibDem rent-a-mob. Chris Hayward accused the LibDems and Labour of "playing to popular opinion" (heaven forbid democratically-elected representatives should do that). Clare Berry said she had only received 10 emails against the incinerator (didn't say whether she had received ANY in favour of it). Derrick Ashley accused the motion's supporters of 'political pontificating' and said no one had suggested where the
incinerator should go (ignoring the various consultation processes and the logic of his own Waste Strategy which required a geographically central location for the county and close to where the waste - industrial far outweighing household - originates). Steven Markiewicz listed some of the adverse impacts on Hatfield in recent years. Bill Storey objected to what he considered to be an attempt to undermine the planning process (but apparently happy for flawed proposals to go ahead, be fought and - hopefully - defeated, and the council to start from scratch while landfill costs rise year on year).

Martin Frearson - Liberal Democrat, St Albans City and District, St Albans South speaking for the motion, referred to alternative technologies being developed - vacuum pyrolysis (organic material is heated in a vacuum in order to lower boiling point and avoid unwanted chemical reactions) being used to convert waste plastic into diesel.

He referred to a plant in Brazil. However, there are plans to build plants in London (and elsewhere).

"Sita, the waste company owned by the €7bn (£6bn) French utility Suez Environnement, will on Monday unveil plans to build up to 10 plants, creating 120 jobs and costing an estimated £50m. The first, likely to be located in the London area, will convert so-called "end of life" plastics back into oil-based fuel.

This is the dregs of plastic waste contaminated by food stuffs, which ordinarily ends up at landfill because it cannot be recycled...The waste company aims to build the plants at the rate of two to three per year, depending on how long it takes to get planning consents."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8116000/Sita-to-turn-plastic-into-diesel-to-power-vehicles.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8116000/Sita-to-turn-plastic-into-diesel-to-power-vehicles.html)

So competition for waste is going to increase leaving HCC taxpayers to foot the bill if there is a shortfall.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 01, 2011, 07:30:27 pm
The preceding post has been having a rough ride.

The first version posted here got lost with the others yesterday.

Versions posted on Grant Shapps forum are being moved off the main area to a newly created 'Save New Barnfield' section. Along with a number of other threads including one about 'Vanishing discussions'.

Spooky, eh? 


 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on December 02, 2011, 02:30:17 pm
A report of the HCC meetings on 28/29 Nov can be found on the HAI website at http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)

There's also an article by Paul Zukowskyj in the Hatfield Review at http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_news/9397870.Hatfield_Tory____Not_fit_for_Public_Office___/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_news/9397870.Hatfield_Tory____Not_fit_for_Public_Office___/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 02, 2011, 02:53:05 pm
A curious chain of coincidences


Tuesday, 20 Sep 2011 - Grant Shapps accidently deleted three threads on his forum

•The Conservative Party's Incinerator party
•It appears the Conservative party has declared war on Hatfield
•What have Conservatives done to oppose the incinerator
(at least two were started by moi)

Saturday, 24 September 2011 - HAI holds protest march against the incinerator

-------------------------

Tuesday, 29 November 2011 - HCC Full Council meeting - LibDem's 2nd motion (supported by the Labour group and 2 Conservative councillors) to exclude New Barnfield defeated 20:43 (includes at least 2 Hatfield councillors voting against).


Wednesday, 30 November 2011 - Posts about the CRL petition at HCC and the LibDem motion to exclude New Barnfield are among those lost due to a server malfunction.


Thursday, 1 December 2011 - Posts on Grant Shapps forum about the LibDem motion to exclude New Barnfield are repeatedly (3 times) transferred off the main Welwyn Hatfield discussion section to a newly created 'Save New Barnfield' section further down (by a previously unknown administrator, Chris P)


Friday, 2 December 2011 - unable to access the internet from my home PC (normal service appears to have since been restored, however, this is not the first time something like this has happened).

I'm beginning to think someone wants me offline - can't imagine why ;D.

-------------
PS
Before I get hauled away (You'll never take me alive, copper! Or gold, silver... or whatever your name is! Quick, back to the belfry - bat caves are sooo last year!) HAI are looking for volunteers to deliver leaflets.

info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 03, 2011, 12:52:33 pm
The extraordinary behaviour of two councillors representing (allegedly) Hatfield at Hertfordshire County Council appears to have generated surprisingly little comment in 'official' channels.

Welwyn Hatfield Times - no mention (probably too late for last Wednesday's paper edition).
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/home (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/home)

Welwyn Hatfield Liberal Democrats - does not appear to mention vote
http://welhatlibdems.co.uk/en/ (http://welhatlibdems.co.uk/en/)

Welwyn Hatfield Labour Party - has covered vote
http://www.whlabour.org.uk/ (http://www.whlabour.org.uk/)

Still no sign of the minutes on HCC's website (there were others who spoke for and against but it's hard to tell who the speaker was at times)
http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/ccouncil/16948163/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/ccouncil/16948163/)

Rather makes one wonder what else OUR elected representatives get up to when we're not looking? [school disco, all-day poker sessions, flogging county hall fittings on eBay...]

Frankly, if councillors are just going to follow the party line we could save money by scrapping local elections and just allocate seats on the basis of the performance of the parliamentary candidates
.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on December 03, 2011, 05:28:15 pm
Documents relating to the planning application for New Barnfield have appeared today on

http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Albert Ross on December 06, 2011, 01:40:36 pm
Just in case anybody is trying to email the address on the Green Belt's leaflet put through our doors yesterday, it is not yet up and running. The alternative one is to put planning after newbarnfields, to read as one word, then the rest.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 06, 2011, 02:30:24 pm
Planning application for the temporary relocated Southfield School submitted

"Proposed extension of a special school for a temporary period of five years, regrading of existing playing fields, new pedestrian access, landscaping and other related matters on land at the former Howe Dell School site, Woods Avenue, Hatfield, Herts."

Details at www.hertsdirect.org.uk/planning (http://www.hertsdirect.org.uk/planning)

Objections to reach them by 13 December 2011.

Unfortunately, all these things are coming around the same time and during the Festive Season (which is as coincidental as HCC's decision to release the news they had picked Veolia's incinerator option the day before the Royal Wedding - see below).

Please note: objections the to planning application on the grounds that it simply is to aid the planning application for the incinerator will NOT be considered valid. Indeed, at the HCC committee meeting on 29 November 2011 they seem to be willing to disregard any objections on the grounds that they are most likely to be from anti-incinerator opponents.

Still, if people can spare the time, then it would be useful to file an objection (on other grounds, like traffic congestion). However, for anti-incinerator campaigners the KEY battle is the incinerator planning application filed with WHBC.

--------------------------------

New waste contract to end reliance on landfill (28 April 2011)
http://news.hertsdirect.org/Release.aspx?a=1&id=11417&_cat=20 (http://news.hertsdirect.org/Release.aspx?a=1&id=11417&_cat=20)


Royal wedding: The ceremony in full (29 April 2011)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13244592 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13244592)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on December 06, 2011, 02:44:24 pm
Just in case anybody is trying to email the address on the Green Belt's leaflet put through our doors yesterday, it is not yet up and running. The alternative one is to put planning after newbarnfields, to read as one word, then the rest.

Would it be possible for the Green Belt's leaflet to be made available on this forum so that those of us who will not receive it through the door can be informed?  Alternatively, if it could be PM'd to me I would be happy to print off some to deliver with those from the Hatfield Anti Incineration group.

On the topic of PFI, the method by which the incinerator will be funded, there was a Panorama programme criticising PFI schemes broadcast on BBC1 a couple of weeks ago, available on http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0184xg1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0184xg1)
 
"Who's Getting Rich on your Money?: the tricky politics of PFI deals" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9647000/9647431.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9647000/9647431.stm)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on December 06, 2011, 05:28:51 pm
Interesting development - Veolia Environnment the Paris based multi national behind the bid to build the incinerator has put up for sale today its UK regulated water businesses, including Hatfield based Veolia Water Central (formerly Three Valleys Water) in a bid to 'reduce it's 15 billion Euro debt burden' http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=196249&title=Veolia+to+sell+UK+regulated+water+companies (http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=196249&title=Veolia+to+sell+UK+regulated+water+companies)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 07, 2011, 11:59:33 am
Local papers also report that Richard Smith, (Conservative - Welwyn), also voted AGAINST excluding New Barnfield from the list of incinerator sites (joining the ranks of fellow party members Clare Berry and Bill Storey - although, unlike them, he did not speak against the motion). So three out of the seven HCC councillors from WH voted AGAINST excluding New Barnfield - in effect, in favour of an incinerator at this location

Ironically, Clare Berry and Richard Smith are members of the Herts CC Development & Control Committee, which will be judging Veolia’s Planning Application (but not the one before WHBC).

Good news for a legal challenge is an admission, at the Independent Examination (later denied as a "misunderstanding" but witnessed by several HAI attendees) by HCC's Ray Greenall, that HCC changed their strategy to support the incinerator option.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on December 08, 2011, 02:25:16 pm
Good news for a legal challenge is an admission, at the Independent Examination (later denied as a "misunderstanding" but witnessed by several HAI attendees)

Is 'misunderstanding'the latest version of Bill Clinton's denial about sex with a certain intern?  This word crops up so many times that it immediately confirms any suspicions you may have
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 08, 2011, 04:32:22 pm
True. It seems our politicians 'misunderestimated' us.

Wonder what ol' George is up to now - his words of (ahem!) wisdom will live on long after he has gone.

This, ladies and gentlemen, was once the most powerful man in the world (Yikes!):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7809160.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7809160.stm)


On a more serious note - as usual, taxpayers (in this case Japanese) have been left to pick up the pieces when a commercial enterprise gets it disastrously wrong:

Japan mulls $13 billion Fukushima bailout
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/08/us-tepco-idUSTRE7B70CP20111208 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/08/us-tepco-idUSTRE7B70CP20111208)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on December 08, 2011, 05:28:48 pm
Would it be possible for the Green Belt's leaflet to be made available on this forum so that those of us who will not receive it through the door can be informed? 

Not the exact wording but this is a summary of what the NM Green Belt Soc has been doing and updated suggestions of grounds for objection.  the links to HCC website and email address have been given by others.

The Planning Application has gone in for an Incinerator at New Barnfield, Welham Green, with comments etc needed by 31st January 2012.  The incinerator will be 45metres high with two or three chimneys to a height of 165 metres.  It will be visible from 30% of Hertfordshire. The proposed times of running will be 5am - 9pm and there will be 180 vehicles a day coming and going from 7am - 7pm.  Extra waste will have to be brought from outside the area to make the Incinerator viable and two types of ash will be taken by road from the site.  The"Fly Ash" which is toxic will be taken in sealed containers to Cheshire.

The Green Belt Society expects to object to this Planning Application on the following grounds:-

The site is within the Green Belt in a very sensitive area being a narrow gap which stops Welham Green coalescing with Hatfield.

The local roads are already congested with the Travellers Lane Industrial Estate traffic (mainly Tesco’s) plus the M1, M25, A1M and M11 all within small distance.

The Special Needs School at New Barnfield will have to be moved i.e. the vulnerable children will be moved and then moved back at a cost of £4-5million.

The re-location and splitting up of the Central Resource Library which is a well-used county facility.

The site is within a short distance of dwellings in Welham Green and South Hatfield.

The building, chimneys and associated paraphernalia such as power cables will be over dominant and out of keeping with the surrounding area.

Members of the Green Belt Committee attended an eight-day Hearing by the Inspector for the Minister of State into the County Council's Waste Core Strategy.  We have submitted a Statement to this drawn up by a Solicitor.  This is about the Core Strategy which should precede the Procurement of a site.  However the findings of the Hearing will not be known until 17th February 2012 and the Planning Application will also have to go before the Secretary of State to prove that it contains "Very Special Circumstances to be built within the Green Belt" so that in fact it could well be after the result of the Hearing is known - which may have a bearing on the decision.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 09, 2011, 09:26:15 am
Planning application for the temporary relocated Southfield School submitted

"Proposed extension of a special school for a temporary period of five years, regrading of existing playing fields, new pedestrian access, landscaping and other related matters on land at the former Howe Dell School site, Woods Avenue, Hatfield, Herts."

Details at www.hertsdirect.org.uk/planning (http://www.hertsdirect.org.uk/planning)

Objections to reach them by 13 December 2011.

Unfortunately, all these things are coming around the same time and during the Festive Season (which is as coincidental as HCC's decision to release the news they had picked Veolia's incinerator option the day before the Royal Wedding - see below).

Please note: objections the to planning application on the grounds that it simply is to aid the planning application for the incinerator will NOT be considered valid. Indeed, at the HCC committee meeting on 29 November 2011 they seem to be willing to disregard any objections on the grounds that they are most likely to be from anti-incinerator opponents.

Still, if people can spare the time, then it would be useful to file an objection (on other grounds, like traffic congestion). However, for anti-incinerator campaigners the KEY battle is the incinerator planning application filed with WHBC.

--------------------------------

New waste contract to end reliance on landfill (28 April 2011)
http://news.hertsdirect.org/Release.aspx?a=1&id=11417&_cat=20 (http://news.hertsdirect.org/Release.aspx?a=1&id=11417&_cat=20)


Royal wedding: The ceremony in full (29 April 2011)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13244592 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13244592)

There seems to be no limit to HCC's underhand dealing.

I tried accessing the planning application at the URL they gave in their letter - using the reference given, name of the school, its postcode...and I've found nothing.

Emailed them yesterday - still waiting for a response.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on December 09, 2011, 12:42:50 pm
Re: Planning Application for the temporary reloaction of Southfield School

https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20722 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20722)

You have to go onto the page to search for a planning application - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do)
select Hatfield in the drop down menu for Town, then scroll down through the list of results
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on December 09, 2011, 01:04:27 pm
Would it be possible for the Green Belt's leaflet to be made available on this forum so that those of us who will not receive it through the door can be informed? 

Not the exact wording but this is a summary of what the NM Green Belt Soc has been doing and updated suggestions of grounds for objection. 

Thank you for this information.  It's very useful guidance for me ... and I'm sure the many others who are trying to put together a response. 

Veolia has added "Planning Application Fact Sheets" to its website at
http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/About-us/Planning-Application/Planning-Application-Documents/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/About-us/Planning-Application/Planning-Application-Documents/)
In the one on Transport they are saying that the number of vehicle movements per day could possibly be 458.

BTW, is anyone else finding the order of the planning documents online confusing? 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 09, 2011, 07:28:30 pm
Re: Planning Application for the temporary reloaction of Southfield School

https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20722 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20722)

You have to go onto the page to search for a planning application - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do)
select Hatfield in the drop down menu for Town, then scroll down through the list of results

Thank you for the info.

HCC responded at 09:45 with the following instructions:

To access documents on the web please follow the next steps;
 
Please copy and paste the following link to access the documents;

https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do)

Click on 'Search for an application' link

Click on the 'Current' radio button

Type in %Former Howe Dell School in the keywords box

Click 'Search'

You should see the application at Former Howe Dell School

Click on 'View Full Details' on the application

Half way down on the right hand side click on the 'Documents' tab

You should see all the documents for this application
 
If you have any queries please contact the office on 01992 556266.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 11, 2011, 01:26:02 pm
Reminder: there's only a few hours left to make your objections known.


This will lead to avoidable and unnecessary road congestion (with potential implications for Hatfield town centre traffic, and bus timetables).

Woods Avenue/Travellers Lane already has a number of schools on it (while the parallel roads of Rectory Drive and Briars Lane have Onslow School and the under-construction new 'Free School'). Additionally, Woods Avenue also connects with Bishops Rise - so there is significant traffic relating to the University - and that's without their plans to increase the number of student places at the Halls of Residence from 1,500 t0 2,500.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on December 11, 2011, 03:48:36 pm
Typing my objections now, Trekbat.  Is the traffic congestion the only issue?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 11, 2011, 10:30:11 pm
Thanks, chicken legs.

Well, there's the waste of taxpayers' funds and the disruption to very vulnerable children's education. Unfortunately, as we saw at the committee meeting, they don't seem to be bothered about that.

If the comments were anything to go by, they'll dismiss out of hand anything that THEY interpret as being an attempt to thwart THEIR incinerator.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Greybeard on December 12, 2011, 07:22:47 am
Apologies if I'm going over old ground, but who are our county councillors and what are their contact details?

Have we heard from them on this? I haven't noticed any quotes on the leaflets I've seen.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 12, 2011, 09:38:48 am
We've heard from them alright:

County councillors slammed in new Hatfield incinerator row
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/county_councillors_slammed_in_new_hatfield_incinerator_row_1_1150457 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/county_councillors_slammed_in_new_hatfield_incinerator_row_1_1150457)

Reply #265 and Reply #277 gave contact details and their actions at the meeting of Herts County Council last month where a second LibDem motion to exclude New Barnfield from the Site List on the basis that it was next to a special needs school was defeated. Ironically, some of the councillors who spoke against the motion were at the committee meeting the day before and sanctimoniously decided to recommend temporarily moving Southfields School - for 5 years and at a cost of several million pounds - on the grounds that it was in the children's best interests (the school is only being moved to support their bid to get planning permission for the incinerator - Reply #45 gives details).

Sara Johnston - Conservative, Haldens
58 Dawley, Welwyn Garden City, AL7 1DZ
Tel: 01707 892646
Email: sara.johnston@hertscc.gov.uk
[Did NOT attend - had a tip off (from an unknown source, so not sure of reliability) that she was helping her boyfriend move house]

Malcolm Cowan - Liberal Democrat, Handside and Peartree
6 Lytton Gardens, Welwyn Garden City, AL8 6EG
Tel: 01707 324723
Email: malcolm.cowan@hertscc.gov.uk
[Voted and spoke FOR excluding New Barnfield]

Clare Berry - Conservative, Hatfield North
9 Daffodil Close, Hatfield, AL10 9FF
Tel: 01707 259843
Email: clare.berry@hertscc.gov.uk
[Voted and spoke AGAINST excluding New Barnfield]

Bill Storey   - Conservative, Hatfield Rural
55 Holloways Lane, North Mymms, AL9 7NR
Tel: 01707 694951
Email: bill.storey@hertscc.gov.uk   
[Voted and spoke AGAINST excluding New Barnfield]

Stuart Pile - Conservative, Hatfield South
8 Lavender Close, Hatfield, AL10 9FW
Tel: 01707 260125
Email: stuart.pile@hertscc.gov.uk     
[Voted and spoke FOR excluding New Barnfield]

Richard H Smith - Conservative, Welwyn
4 Kindersley Close, Welwyn,
Tel:  01438 714323
Email: richard.smith@hertscc.gov.uk
[Voted AGAINST excluding New Barnfield]

Steven Markiewicz - Conservative,    Welwyn Garden City South
The Holte End, 37 Church Street, Welwyn, AL6 9LS
Tel: 01438 717377
Email: steven.markiewicz@hertscc.gov.uk
[Voted and spoke FOR excluding New Barnfield]
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: fredkw on December 14, 2011, 08:43:58 am
For those of you who can easily send bulk emails I attach a CSV list of the email addresses of most of the Hertfordshire county councillors.  Of the 77 approximately 5 bounce.

The replies I have had range from totally against the incinerator to tacit support with others not giving their views.  Quite a few members have forwarded my email to the relevant department thus adding to the number of complaints.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: larrylamb on December 14, 2011, 05:05:02 pm
havent been following this as often as i should, but based on where we are today, in terms of percentage what is the likelyhood of this going ahead and being built?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Greybeard on December 15, 2011, 06:29:13 am
Bill Storey, the county councillor representing Brookmans Park, has his profile page on the county council's site here -

http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/councillors/ccllrs/billstorey/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/councillors/ccllrs/billstorey/)

It includes these contact details

55 Holloways Lane
North Mymms
Hertfordshire
AL9 7NR

Phone(s):
• home: 01707 694951
• home fax: 01707 694704

Email: bill.storey@hertscc.gov.uk
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 15, 2011, 05:16:10 pm
havent been following this as often as i should, but based on where we are today, in terms of percentage what is the likelyhood of this going ahead and being built?

As things stand and without a 'people power' protest and legal challenge I'd say it was a certainty. Rather difficult to quantify in percentage terms but hazarding a guess I'd estimate it at around 98%.

This is based on the fact that HCC has already signed a contract with Veolia to build the incinerator at New Barnfield; HCC is in the process of moving the Central Resources Library and other facilities to clear this site; they have publicly declared that they're going to overrule a covenant on the land's use; and have applied for planning permission to temporarily move Southfield School (a specialist special needs school) from the adjoining site at a cost of several million pounds.

An incinerator was always going to be an unpopular option wherever it was going to be sited. For reasons previous explained (Reply #50) Hatfield is a lame duck - and many of the diminishing band of families seemed resigned to yet another kick in the teeth from the powers-that-be.

Then there's the treacherous behaviour of our (allegedly) elected representatives. While Cllr Stuart Pile did eventually speak and vote against the incinerator I suspect it's because HAI has been breathing down his neck (Cllr Pile was also on the Libraries panel that agreed moving the CRL out of Hatfield. Interestingly, this Hatfield South county councillor actually lives on the airfield site - north west Hatfield - so will not be among the worst affected should it go ahead).

It's also worth looking at the performance of Hatfield's elected representatives at the Veolia  Community Engagement Group meetings - they held a series of 7 meetings before submitting their planning application. South Hatfield's County Councillor attended only 4 meetings. No other Hatfield County Councillors attended. South Hatfield's WHBC Councillor attended only the first (but according to the minutes of the second meeting had asked to send a replacement as meetings were coinciding with council meetings. However, the Veolia supplier running the meetings said they were only willing to accept another elected councillor as a replacement). No other Hatfield Borough Councillors attended. Hatfield Town Council's representative only attended the first meeting. However, a town councillor did go on the site visit.

Also, interesting to note, is the University of Hertfordshire (originally Hatfield Polytechnic) whose influx of students has prompted many families to move away, is apparently not willing to risk damaging their relationship with HCC, and is playing no active part in the protests. Ironic, given their frequent protestations of friendship and partnership.

Equally disappointing is the apparent total lack of involvement by any student environmental or social groups.

The 2% margin of doubt is down to what the Independent Examiner will report in January 2012. Also, WHBC have made it clear that they will refer the planning application to the Secretary of State (Eric Pickles). It is possible that he may turn it down providing there is sufficient evidence of considerable opposition to it. However, he has previously overruled a council which REFUSED permission to build an incinerator, so that means nothing in itself. It is also worth noting that even when they have been turned down companies like Veolia have mounted legal challenges to these decisions.

Finally, I leave you with an excerpt from the last CEG meeting:

"2.1.1 ... Andrew said that he believed that, over the past two years, there have been four [post meeting clarification: six] breaches of the half hour emissions limits at Veolia’s six Energy Recovery Facilities (ERFs) and that the Environment Agency (EA) had decided that in all these instances it was appropriate to take no action."

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf)

So, it's not a question as to whether there will be a release of toxins but rather when, for how long and which toxins will be released. Interesting, also that they're presumably going to move the special needs school back to its original building next door once they've fired it up!

PS
At least some (there doesn't appear to be a Master List) of the Planning application documents can be viewed at the Central Resources Library. The Environmental Assessment alone consists of 5 Lever arch files. Looking at the reams of paper one thing seems clear: they haven't spent that amount of time and effort to walk away empty-handed.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Greybeard on December 15, 2011, 05:31:06 pm
Here is what they are proposing for Bradford - Richard North makes some interesting points.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2011/12/hidden-europe.html (http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2011/12/hidden-europe.html)

Quote
Count the ways in which your local newspaper is inadequate, and you might sadly conclude that the local media was deservedly a dying industry. And no more so is the breed inadequate than in its abject failure to identify the huge burden imposed upon us by the European Union.

A classic example of this comes with my local rag, the Bradford Telegraph and Argus, which uncritically announces the approval of a hugely expensive waste treatment plant, without the slightest reference to the fact that this colossal expenditure, estimated at £400 million (but bound to rise) is entirely necessary because of the EU waste framework directive.

This is part of the £8 billion or so infrastructure costs attributable entirely to this insane and entirely counter-productive legislation – as evidence increasingly accumulates to show that attempts at recyling end up consuming more energy than they save.

In this case, the intellectually challenged Bradford councillors, aided and abetted by the over-paid and under-skilled strategic director for environment and sport, Ian Bairstow, is opting for an energy from waste facility.

Unfortunately, owing to the highly variable nature of municipal waste, and a relatively low calorific value, these plants never work effectively. In particular, we tend to see – as a matter of course – higher than budgeted repair and maintenance costs, and considerable down time, with much lower productivity than expected.

As a result, not one of the plants so far in operation actually meet their budget targets, invariably costing far more than they should, not least as the owners have to find alternative disposal facilities for when their plant is not operating.

In this case, even the basic costs are eye-watering, amounting to roughly £1,000 for every household in the district, or equivalent to one year's council tax for every taxpayer.

One might have thought such insanity might actually earn a critical note from the local media, but that is not what they are in business for. Largely acting as cheerleaders for the brain-dead, the role of the local press, it seems, is to hoover up local advertising revenue from the council – at our expense – as its reward.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: larrylamb on December 15, 2011, 07:08:56 pm
havent been following this as often as i should, but based on where we are today, in terms of percentage what is the likelyhood of this going ahead and being built?

As things stand and without a 'people power' protest and legal challenge I'd say it was a certainty. Rather difficult to quantify in percentage terms but hazarding a guess I'd estimate it at around 98%.

This is based on the fact that HCC has already signed a contract with Veolia to build the incinerator at New Barnfield; HCC is in the process of moving the Central Resources Library and other facilities to clear this site; they have publicly declared that they're going to overrule a covenant on the land's use; and have applied for planning permission to temporarily move Southfield School (a specialist special needs school) from the adjoining site at a cost of several million pounds.

An incinerator was always going to be an unpopular option wherever it was going to be sited. For reasons previous explained (Reply #50) Hatfield is a lame duck - and many of the diminishing band of families seemed resigned to yet another kick in the teeth from the powers-that-be.

Then there's the treacherous behaviour of our (allegedly) elected representatives. While Cllr Stuart Pile did eventually speak and vote against the incinerator I suspect it's because HAI has been breathing down his neck (Cllr Pile was also on the Libraries panel that agreed moving the CRL out of Hatfield. Interestingly, this Hatfield South county councillor actually lives on the airfield site - north west Hatfield - so will not be among the worst affected should it go ahead).

It's also worth looking at the performance of Hatfield's elected representatives at the Veolia  Community Engagement Group meetings - they held a series of 7 meetings before submitting their planning application. South Hatfield's County Councillor attended only 4 meetings. No other Hatfield County Councillors attended. South Hatfield's WHBC Councillor attended only the first (but according to the minutes of the second meeting had asked to send a replacement as meetings were coinciding with council meetings. However, the Veolia supplier running the meetings said they were only willing to accept another elected councillor as a replacement). No other Hatfield Borough Councillors attended. Hatfield Town Council's representative only attended the first meeting. However, a town councillor did go on the site visit.

Also, interesting to note, is the University of Hertfordshire (originally Hatfield Polytechnic) whose influx of students has prompted many families to move away, is apparently not willing to risk damaging their relationship with HCC, and is playing no active part in the protests. Ironic, given their frequent protestations of friendship and partnership.

Equally disappointing is the apparent total lack of involvement by any student environmental or social groups.

The 2% margin of doubt is down to what the Independent Examiner will report in January 2012. Also, WHBC have made it clear that they will refer the planning application to the Secretary of State (Eric Pickles). It is possible that he may turn it down providing there is sufficient evidence of considerable opposition to it. However, he has previously overruled a council which REFUSED permission to build an incinerator, so that means nothing in itself. It is also worth noting that even when they have been turned down companies like Veolia have mounted legal challenges to these decisions.

Finally, I leave you with an excerpt from the last CEG meeting:

"2.1.1 ... Andrew said that he believed that, over the past two years, there have been four [post meeting clarification: six] breaches of the half hour emissions limits at Veolia’s six Energy Recovery Facilities (ERFs) and that the Environment Agency (EA) had decided that in all these instances it was appropriate to take no action."

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf)

So, it's not a question as to whether there will be a release of toxins but rather when, for how long and which toxins will be released. Interesting, also that they're presumably going to move the special needs school back to its original building next door once they've fired it up!

PS
At least some (there doesn't appear to be a Master List) of the Planning application documents can be viewed at the Central Resources Library. The Environmental Assessment alone consists of 5 Lever arch files. Looking at the reams of paper one thing seems clear: they haven't spent that amount of time and effort to walk away empty-handed.
Thankyou Trekbat. why does the chimney need to be so high if the "toxins" released are not deemed harmful?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on December 18, 2011, 02:04:21 pm
When is an incinerator not an incinerator?  When it's a POWER STATION!

http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Hoddesdon-and-Broxbourne/First-glimpse-of-new-Hoddesdon-power-station-23112011.htm (http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Hoddesdon-and-Broxbourne/First-glimpse-of-new-Hoddesdon-power-station-23112011.htm)

http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Hoddesdon-and-Broxbourne/Rubbish-burning-power-station-proposed-for-Hoddesdon-14102011.htm (http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Hoddesdon-and-Broxbourne/Rubbish-burning-power-station-proposed-for-Hoddesdon-14102011.htm)

Does this not somewhat call into question Veolia's statement for their choice of New Barnfield, i.e., "The non-availability of an alternative non-Green Belt site is a key element of the very special circumstances argument advanced in this Statement to justify the application proposals for a RERF on the site"? (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/planningandsustainabilitystatement.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/planningandsustainabilitystatement.pdf))

Clearly they have found a non Greenbelt site suitable for dealing with North London's waste.

 

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 19, 2011, 02:43:09 pm
Oh, flippin' marvellous - just seen Ex Libris's post and followed the links:


"THE first images of the proposed new power station in Hoddesdon have been released ahead of consultation events beginning next week. Veolia’s proposed power station, now named Fields (sic) Lock after the adjacent feature on the River Lee, would burn rubbish from north London to produce electricity...Veolia’s power station is one of three rival projects vying for a contract from the North London Waste Authority to burn 320,000 tonnes of rubbish per year...The Fieldes Lock proposal would see 90 per cent of the rubbish brought in via rail and would produce an estimated 50MW of electricity each year - enough to power 96,000 homes"
http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Hoddesdon-and-Broxbourne/First-glimpse-of-new-Hoddesdon-power-station-23112011.htm (http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/Hoddesdon-and-Broxbourne/First-glimpse-of-new-Hoddesdon-power-station-23112011.htm)


Veolia Environmental Services is planning to develop a rail-linked power station at a site in Hoddesdon, Hertfordshire.
"We are proposing to develop a rail-linked power station on a site next to the existing gas-fired Rye House power station on Ratty’s Lane, Hoddesdon. The power station will generate electricity from a combination of natural gas and Solid Recovered Fuel (SRF), mostly delivered to the site by rail from London."
http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Fieldes-Lock (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Fieldes-Lock)


Solid Recovered Fuel (SRF) - also known as Refuse Derived Fuel (RDF)
http://www.solidrecoveredfuel.com/Solid_Recovered_Fuel.html (http://www.solidrecoveredfuel.com/Solid_Recovered_Fuel.html)
http://www.thewasteexchange.co.uk/refuse_derived_fuel.html (http://www.thewasteexchange.co.uk/refuse_derived_fuel.html)


So Veolia intend to operate another incinerator (in effect) in south Hertfordshire. One which is apparently dedicated to taking North London's waste. No worries (for Veolia) if there's a shortfall at New Barnfield as HCC have guaranteed them to provide waste and (or rather Herts taxpayers) will be footing the bill for any shortfalls thanks to the penalty clauses. Cor-wumph! (with apologies to Anthony Buckeridge).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on December 22, 2011, 12:16:16 pm
Link to Welhat Council opposition to much hated Hatfield incinerator

Useful list of practical steps and how to make your voice known:
http://www.welhat.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3929 (http://www.welhat.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3929)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 27, 2011, 05:56:29 pm
Baa, humbug! (also known as lamb and mint sauce).

It's almost as amusing as the news that HCC is in the running to be named Council of the Year in the Local Government Chronicle Awards (particularly as they cite "Enhancing the role of councillors in the community through the Hertfordshire Local programme", as one of their key achievements).
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hertfordshire_county_council_makes_shortlist_for_best_of_the_year_contest_1_1158723

The £20,000 WHBC has committed is peanuts in comparison to legal costs and WHBC's overall expenditure.

The WHBC page shows that it was last updated on 21/12/2011, however the programme officer for the independent examination sent out an email on 20/12/2011 notifying that HCC had submitted changes to the wording of its Waste Core Strategy and that these were now open for a six week public consultation:

http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wcsexam/conchange/

As a result, the independent examiner will NOT be reporting back till 30 March 2012 - so much for WHBC keeping people informed (more like the mushroom treatment - keep 'em in the dark and feed them a lot of ----).
Incidentally, I've only briefly gone through the proposed changes but a few things caught my eye, like:

- amending, throughout the document, references to Municipal Solid Waste (MSW) to “local authority collected waste” (ie. commercial and industrial waste was always the 'biggie' while the authorities appeared to try to put the blame for the waste mountain on individual households);

- a reminder that Herts imports a sizeable amount of waste other counties (especially from London). (Point 73)

- "Policy 63: Energy & Heat Recovery Preference will be given to technologies for treatment of waste which maximise recovery and where appropriate generate and recover heat and power." (Point 187) New Barnfield will be a CHP (Combined Heat and Power) facility but no one has been signed up - yet. My guess is that once it's up and running WHBC will shrug their shoulders and say that now that it's there we might as well make the best of a bad situation and take the heat by-product.

- "Policy 58: Waste Parks/Combined Facilities
Preference will be given to Proposals for waste management facilities which incorporate different types of waste management facilities at the same location (also known as Waste Parks)" (Point 223) The incinerator is likely to be the thin edge of a wedge - as has already been seen a gas-fired power station was built next to Veolia Marchwood plant. It is more than likely, if New Barnfield goes ahead, that there will be other 'add-ons' to the facility in future - the argument will be that waste is already been trucked there so it would be more environmentally-friendly and economic to locate other related facilities in or near it.

In the meantime the clock is still counting down on the Veolia's planning application to build the incinerator.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 29, 2011, 02:01:55 pm
This week's WHT lead letter is from HCC Hatfield Rural Cllr Bill Storey. Frankly, I find it rambling and insulting - but that's just my opinion. It'll be interesting to see how others interpret his comments.

There is also a letter from HCC Cllr David Lloyd who talks about the need to reduce council expenditure. Rather hypocritical given that HCC had the opportunity to save money by relocating the Central Resources Library to what were vacant school buildings at Briars Lane and merge it with the existing Hatfield town library. The buildings were large enough to house the complete reference library and music library, with free parking close by.

Instead, HCC have opted to knock them down to build a 'Free' School at a cost of several million (which would not have been needed if they hadn't closed down the school at Hazel Grove - and it's still debatable whether this is a value-for-money option) on this site; refurbish the main WGC library at Campus West at a cost of £2.1m to house the reference library and business services (and they'll still need to spend millions on a second facility to house the music collection).

I'm sorry to say it, but as politicians pander to vested interests and treat the public like idiots, I fear it is only a matter of time before society as we know it disintegrates.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ferdie on December 29, 2011, 03:10:22 pm
When HCC closed Hazel Grove School, there was lots of opposition and evidence to indicate that the school should remain, but HCC still went ahead and closed it and built houses on the land. I don't believe the incinerator scenario will be different. HCC will do what they want irrespective of public opinion.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on December 30, 2011, 10:12:08 am
Please don't be defeatist, Ferdie.  We must still do all we can at this stage.  We could all write a few letters and ask friends and neighbours to sign them.  It's quantity that counts.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 03, 2012, 02:10:09 pm
When HCC closed Hazel Grove School, there was lots of opposition and evidence to indicate that the school should remain, but HCC still went ahead and closed it and built houses on the land. I don't believe the incinerator scenario will be different. HCC will do what they want irrespective of public opinion.

I suppose we could skip with the civilised and legal niceties and proceed straight to lynching treacherous local politicians, burning down Veolia Water's (even if it seems a contradiction in terms) Hatfield operation and massacring anyone attempting to build an incinerator at New Barnfield - although I'm guessing that's not what you have in mind. Anyway, health and safety would probably come down like a ton of bricks (possibly foam ones) on such diverting local pastimes.

I agree with chicken legs - now is definitely NOT the time to run up the white flag (if anything quite the opposite).

In fact, it is probably because local people have been so quiet that they're proposing to have an incinerator on our doorsteps (I've long suspected the original deal was WGC would get the CRL wrapped up in a nice new £7m facility before WHBC woke up to the fact that wasn't going to happen, and they also realised which way the wind was blowing - politically and literally).

Further, this is likely to be just the start of it - HCC is already altering their waste strategy to refer to 'Waste Parks' (the original artist's impressions for Marchwood showed a dome against a green backdrop - except they then built a gas-fired power station next to it - preciously little greenery to be seen). So, it's anyone's guess what else is going to end up there in years to come.

As I've previously said, our best chance of thwarting their evil machinations is to mount a legal challenge. It's also worth letting Grant Shapps and all the other Conservative politicians / councillors know that there will be electoral consequences for as long as the incinerator blights our lives - if THEY allow it to go ahead (personally, so far at least I find their various protestations of opposition, unconvincing particularly in light of the accompanying actions / inaction).

PS
Have look from the bridge over the railway tracks at Welham Green - now that the leaves have fallen you can easily see the existing chimney stack (old school incinerator / kitchen) at New Barnfield.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 03, 2012, 02:20:14 pm
Hi Trekbat,

Is this the Veolia Twitter account? @Veolia_ES_UK (https://twitter.com/#!/Veolia_ES_UK)

https://twitter.com/#!/Veolia_ES_UK
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 03, 2012, 04:06:48 pm
Hi David,

Not a great Twit (but opinion is divided), however, I'd say it looks like the culprits - Veolia Environmental Services.

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/)

They're also trying to build a facility at Hoddesdon (as Ex Libris has mentioned)
http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Fieldes-Lock (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Fieldes-Lock)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Helen on January 03, 2012, 06:12:51 pm
Hi there, can I just gain clarification on something? I see from Veolia's site that the planning consultation runs until 31st January & yet I could have sworn that we've had flyers through the door saying that we've only got until 12th Jan to lodge our objections. Which is correct?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on January 03, 2012, 07:48:53 pm
Hi there, can I just gain clarification on something? I see from Veolia's site that the planning consultation runs until 31st January & yet I could have sworn that we've had flyers through the door saying that we've only got until 12th Jan to lodge our objections. Which is correct?

Veolia's planning application for New Barnfield can be found on http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/)  This page says, "We intend to give a consulation period of over 6 weeks which will end on Tuesday 31st January 2012".  This is also the date given on Hatfield Anti Incineration's flyer as the closing date for objections.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Helen on January 03, 2012, 11:13:25 pm
Thanks Ex Libris, must've been getting confused - maybe with the start date? Just wanted to make sure I wasn't giving the wrong info out when spreading the word...
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 05, 2012, 01:09:26 pm
Now here's a surprise (not). In the Community Involvement Statement which forms part of Veolia's planning application they have left out the last set of minutes (09/11/11) for the so-called Community Engagement Group before they submitted their planning application.

This was the meeting where they made an interesting and worrying (particularly in light of all the assurances that it's safe) admission:

Quote from: trekbat link=topic=1651.msg27675#msg27675 date=1323969370"2.1.1
... Andrew said that he believed that, over the past two years, there have been four [post meeting clarification: six] breaches of the half hour emissions limits at Veolia’s six Energy Recovery Facilities (ERFs) and that the Environment Agency (EA) had decided that in all these instances it was appropriate to take no action."

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf)

2.1.1 - 2.1.8 also reveals despite the question being raised several times before Veolia signally failed to give a definitive answer as to how long it would take to cut off the outpouring of toxins once they realised something had gone wrong. Best case scenario seems to be it takes at least half an hour.

4.2.9 Shows it was pointed out that Hatfield House was closed during second traffic survey.

So all traffic forecasts are based on two surveys - one in June when the students were away, and the other when Hatfield House was in its closed period.

Looking at the Transport Assessment I was struck (anyone get his number?) that there is no mention or consideration of seasonality - people using New Barnfield are likely to have noticed the volume of HGVs entering and leaving the Tesco distribution centre in the run up to Christmas and New Year (something that would have been replicated in other food / retail distribution operations in Hatfield - Ocado, Booker and supermarket home deliveries). And let's not forget the other mail distribution and logistic operations also in Hatfield (DHL, Royal Mail / Parcelforce, CityLink and Yodel).

No doubt the politicians will be wringing their hands when there's gridlock or people are killed/injured in traffic accidents or due to pollution.

[edited to fix quote box] A
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 05, 2012, 04:27:08 pm
Hi Trekbat,

Interesting claims there about leaving out the minutes. In the interest of fairness I have tweeted inviting Veolia (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/) to come on to the forum and say whether it's true or false. My tweet is below. Here is the link.

http://twitter.com/#!/bpnewsletter/status/154955690228715520 (http://twitter.com/#!/bpnewsletter/status/154955690228715520)

(http://www.brookmans.com/news/january12/incinerator.jpg) (http://twitter.com/#!/bpnewsletter/status/154955690228715520)

Here is the Veolia Twitter account link @Veolia_ES_UK (http://twitter.com/#!/Veolia_ES_UK).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 05, 2012, 07:14:27 pm
A copy of the Community Involvement Statement can be seen at the CRL at New Barnfield.

Under the minutes for the 9/11 meeting there's just a line to the effect that they were yet to be agreed - not surprising, as a panel member had to ask when they were coming out some two weeks after the meeting (even though there were complaints about the time it took to issue minutes weeks earlier).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on January 06, 2012, 09:44:28 am
A friend who is a member of the CEG feels that the meetings have been very disappointing.  Veolia representatives listen but do not act upon local concerns.

She feels that the meetings have been a good way to obtain information, but they have been poorly attended by our local elected representatives, both at Parish level and County Counci.  The meetings have recently become quite depressing as this whole plan keeps moving towards, what Veolia envisages, its likely conclusion.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 08, 2012, 09:47:15 am
Some other salient points about Veolia's Community Involvement statement:

1. It included a map showing the distribution area of their leaflet/mailers

http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/About-us/Publications/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Hertfordshire/About-us/Publications/)

They were restricted to South and Central Hatfield ie. the more affluent parts of Hatfield (Old Hatfield, The Ryde, Ellenbrook, Hatfield Garden Village and the whole of the airfield redevelopment - including Salisbury Garden Village) were NOT included. Their map also shows that of the five WHBC councillors in these two wards four are Labour (all the surrounding wards are Conservative).

2. Social Capital ie. the impact on Hatfield is only given a very cursory treatment. When it is likely to have a devastating impact on projects like the town centre redevelopment and High View (Hilltop) redevelopment. Also, the possible loss of jobs in the highly probable event that Mitsubishi decide to relocate their offices (and I dread to think what else they'll end up building on the site).

3. Visual impact - nothing about aviation warning lights (almost certainly to be required given the 75m twin stacks will be located on high ground on or close to the approaches to Panshanger and Luton airports). Also, nothing about the visibility of the plumes in cold conditions, which will be considerable if these photos of the Edmonton incinerator are any indication:

http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/n18incinpix.html (http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/n18incinpix.html)

PS
David, any response from Veolia to your Tweet?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 08, 2012, 10:49:07 am
David, any response from Veolia to your Tweet?

Hi Trekbat, no direct response, however the Veolia twitter account @Veolia_ES_UK (http://twitter.com/#!/Veolia_ES_UK) is now following our @bpnewsletter (http://twitter.com/#!/bpnewsletter) account.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Greybeard on January 08, 2012, 11:26:26 am
I emailed Bill Storey in mid-December asking him to tell me his views on the incinerator, or just point me to a statement.

No answer.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on January 08, 2012, 12:52:02 pm
I have been a lifelong Conservative voter, but in the light of our  local councillors recent behaviour regarding this incinerator I will never vote  for them again,
and many people I have spoken to feel the same. But the problem is I don't fancy the alternatives either and I would have to waste my vote, something
 I have never done, and feel is morally very wrong.
We need somebody to stand as an independent candidate, then the local Conservatives will get worried - they might never sit in County Hall again.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on January 09, 2012, 11:16:44 am
A few of us stood at the shops in Welham Green this morning, with a selection of protest letters (different wording, fonts, etc.), inviting passers-by to sign them and add their name and address.  We also supplied envelopes of various sizes and we will deliver the letters ourselves.  We managed a total of 49 letters, in just over an hour.  This is almost ten per cent of the reported number of letters already received by the County Council, so it is well worth doing.  We plan to be there at different times and days in the future.

It would be useful if anyone feels able to do this at the Bradmore Green shops.  We've been told that the Simple Response Form supplied by the Hatfield Against Incineration Group will be treated by the Planning Group as one protest only, as it resembles a petition.  Hence the need to vary the look and content of letters which we offered to the public.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Pollyanna on January 09, 2012, 01:31:11 pm
The Council must receive all objections by 31 January so obviously they should be sent in plenty of time to get there by that date. I find it incredible that so few letters to date have been received by the council. The Kings Lynn objectors in Norfolk sent in many thousands of letters, which is what we need. Is this community really so apathetic and unconcerned? Surely, we have chosen to live in this area because we like it and then surely we would all want to preserve it as much as we can?

By the way, Cllr David Lloyd represents an area in Berkhamsted, so he wouldn't care less about the incinerator as long as it isn't on his doorstep.

Apart from the emissions breaches by Veolia mentioned on this thread, there is also their poor track record which I mentioned previously on health and safety - fires on their sites, explosions, etc. Veolia 's track record is not very reassuring.

Consider the following: In July 2007 there was a major chemical fire at a Veolia waste management centre in Preston which resulted in the temporary closure of two motorways the M6 and the M55, and the evacuation of 20,000 people. Traffic was gridlocked for 3 hours while 66 firefighters attended the incident. After an inquiry Veolia were fined a total of £150,000 plus costs of £90,000 but the cost to the council was estimated to be about £4 million!!  (think about that HCC).

In April 2007 fire crews fought a blaze which broke out at a large waste transfer station belonging to VES in Derby where 200,000 tonnes of rubbish caught fire.

In July 2008 the Cambridge News reported a 'toxic smoke scare' after a chemical fire at an industrial premises owned by Veolia Environmental Services.

In March 2009 the Birmingham Mail reported a fire at a Veolia facility in Small Heath where a factory was totally destroyed by the blaze.

In the USA, West Carrollton, Ohio, VES were reported as 'groping for answers as to what caused the explosion and fire that alarmed neighbours for miles and caused damage to more than a dozen homes within a mile radius'.

So, we have just under 3 weeks to stop this happening on our doorstep. Which means many thousands of us will have to put pen to paper and make our views known to Hertfordshire County Council, which is beginning to  look  like 'the enemy'. One thing is for sure. If this does get built, we can scrap the recycling bins the Council were so intent on us having because they will be needing every piece of rubbish they can get to keep this thing going!

Consider the facts from the Norfolk campaign -

In 1996 many incinerators were closed down because they could not meet European regulations for emissions. As scientific knowledge of the harmful effects of incinerator emissions increases, tighter regulations are imposed. But there is no technology that can take out all of the pollutants. The incinerators currently operating in the UK, legally release into the atmosphere hundreds of kilograms of highly toxic heavy metals as well as hundreds of tonnes of acid gases and highly dangerous microscopic dust particles. This is in addition to many other pollutants that are not measured or monitored at all. The Environment Agency has admitted that emissions limits are based on what is technically achievable and not what is safe for human health.
Dioxins:  Dioxins are one of the most carcinogenic (cancer causing) chemicals known to science.  They accumulate in the human body where they remain for ever. Some Councillors claim there will be continuous on-line monitoring of dioxins.  However, the Environment Agency’s national emissions monitoring specialist tells us he is unaware of any such equipment. Trials were performed by the US EPA in 2006 and didn’t work even under lab conditions. It is harder still to perfect on dioxins flowing through a chimney at a rate of 30m3/second. Without frequent monitoring, and reliance on proxies, excessive emissions are more likely to go undetected. This is of major concern to residents, especially given the number of dioxin emissions that breach of legislation (see Regulation section). greater than most current monitoring shows, due to the underestimates that result from spot check monitoring used at most incinerators (twice a year for 6-8 hours only).  These form the basis of national emissions inventories. When the primary route of exposure is via the food chain, and dioxins are bio-accumulative, this represents a potentially significant exposure pathway, not just from a local incinerator but from much of the UK grown food we eat. 

So, get writing everyone and badger everyone you come into contact with to do the same!




Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on January 09, 2012, 03:50:22 pm
If you are interested in making an objection on the grounds of Dioxin emissions, you may be interested in

Click on the link to summary from the website - http://www.teag.org.uk/reports.htm (http://www.teag.org.uk/reports.htm)

and

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/reports/selchp-media-briefing (http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/reports/selchp-media-briefing)

As an aside, SELCHP is now operated by Veolia.  Construction work was started in 1991 and despite being enabled to provide heat it has not as yet done so as no suitable buyers could be found.  However, 20 years later, this may now happen.  A report in the Guardian in December says “at the Surrey Canal development in a neglected corner of South-East London, a closed loop waste to energy system will provide hot water to 2,400 homes via a district heating system” … provided by SELCHP.

and the official stuff http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/PDF/SCHO0306BKNJ-E-E.pdf (http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/PDF/SCHO0306BKNJ-E-E.pdf) which could be said to confirm that "the Environment Agency has admitted that emissions limits are based on what is technically achievable and not what is safe for human health".
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on January 09, 2012, 04:05:45 pm

We've been told that the Simple Response Form supplied by the Hatfield Against Incineration Group will be treated by the Planning Group as one protest only, as it resembles a petition.  Hence the need to vary the look and content of letters which we offered to the public.


Can anyone confirm this?  We were told that if something had been written on the reverse of the 'tick box' side of the form that it would count as an individual objection.

Great stuff though, chicken legs!  I'll pass this on to Welwyn Hatfield Friends of the Earth as they are planning to be at Hatfield Market for the next three Saturdays.

Does anyone know if the objections that have already been submitted can be seen anywhere?  In many cases these are attached to the planning applications online.  Why not in this case?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on January 09, 2012, 04:12:00 pm

We've been told that the Simple Response Form supplied by the Hatfield Against Incineration Group will be treated by the Planning Group as one protest only, as it resembles a petition.  Hence the need to vary the look and content of letters which we offered to the public.


Can anyone confirm this?  We were told that if something had been written on the reverse of the 'tick box' side of the form that it would count as an individual objection.



I checked up and yes, you are right, ex libris.  If something is written, as well as the ticks, the forms will be counted.  Phew!

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Helen on January 10, 2012, 02:17:27 pm
Hi chicken legs, I sent you a PM yesterday & would be interested to hear from you...
Thanks!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 10, 2012, 04:16:49 pm
“Welwyn Hatfield borough council has made its views about the incinerator very clear and does not feel it appropriate to send a letter to all residents. The council continues to strongly oppose any plans for an incinerator on the New Barnfield site.”
http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_letters/9426493.Letter_to_John_Dean/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_letters/9426493.Letter_to_John_Dean/)

Interesting how local politicians keep claiming to be 'strongly' opposed to the incinerator but their actions / inaction suggests otherwise.

I wonder what the modern equivalent of 30 pieces of silver is? An OBE? Their choice of council commitees? Their pick of council accommodation?

It's also worth noting Hatfield South's rep Stuart Pile (who also sat on the Library panel and is a governor of de Havilland School) actually lives on the old airfield (north west Hatfield) - not too far from Clare Berry.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 10, 2012, 04:43:30 pm
Interesting how local politicians keep claiming to be 'strongly' opposed to the incinerator but their actions / inaction suggests otherwise.

And that's a surprise? 

 :)   

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 11, 2012, 08:05:34 pm
Apologies, it was a triumph of hope over reason. It won't happen again. ;)

HCC appears to have miscalculated on how much London waste will be available as another incinerator is announced:

December 16, 2011
"At a press conference this morning (Friday) the South London Waste Partnership revealed Viridor as the chosen partner for the Beddington Lane site, after months of legal wrangles and rows, with Croydon Council’s cabinet coming under-fire for discussing the issue in private and excluding members of the public from key parts of council meetings on the issue. The Energy Recovery Facility (ERF), as it is being termed by the waste partnership, will serve the London boroughs of Croydon, Kingston, Merton and Sutton."
http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/Croydon-incinerator-preferred-bidder-named/story-14156835-detail/story.html (http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/Croydon-incinerator-preferred-bidder-named/story-14156835-detail/story.html)

The proposed solution comprises developing a state-of-the-art Energy Recovery Facility (ERF) facility at the existing landfill and recycling site in Beddington, Sutton, which would have a capacity to process up to 275,000 tonnes of waste for South London Waste Partnership – which includes the London Boroughs of Croydon, Kingston, Merton and Sutton
http://www.viridor.co.uk/consultation/beddington-erf/ (http://www.viridor.co.uk/consultation/beddington-erf/)


Add that to other existing and planned facilities:


Veolia Environmental Services is one of three bidders shortlisted by the North London Waste Authority (NLWA) to tender for its North London Fuel Use contract.[Hoddesdon]
http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Fieldes-Lock (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Fieldes-Lock)

Veolia South East London Combine Heat and Power (SELCHP)
http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Main/Facilities/Energy-Recovery-Facilities/SELCHP-ERF/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Main/Facilities/Energy-Recovery-Facilities/SELCHP-ERF/)


The simple truth is with an ever-growing global population and a finite planet in years to come our waste will become a commodity.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Helen on January 11, 2012, 10:52:50 pm
Chicken legs - have just sent you another PM (in case you're still not getting your notification emails!)...
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Helen on January 11, 2012, 10:54:58 pm
Chicken legs - I've just sent you another PM & thought I'd better post on here too in case you're still not getting your notification emails...

Oops, seem to have sent this twice because I thought it had lost my first post!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 12, 2012, 07:45:49 am
Do any of those following this topic know if there is a Twitter hashtag for information about the Hatfield incinerator?  It would be good to know for 1) tweeting the lastest forum posts from this site and 2) following updates using Twitter search (https://twitter.com/#!/search-home). I have set up some search streams in Hootsuite with key words regarding the incinerator, but I can't find a common #hashtag.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on January 13, 2012, 02:20:51 pm
Just two weeks to go to get those letter of objection to HCC, if you haven't done it all ready please don't assume  that someone else will write - its down to YOU. There haven't been that many letters received so far, perhaps 'someone else' isn't doing it after all. We'll all be sorry if the incinerator is built because too few objections were raised.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 13, 2012, 02:52:57 pm
The response is 'pathetic', according to a report in the Welwyn Hatfield Times

Quote
More help needed to oppose Hatfield incinerator
RESIDENTS opposed to the Hatfield incinerator must act now if there is to be any hope of blocking the plans.

That was the message from the opposition campaigners, after it was revealed less than 500 people have so far written to Hertfordshire County Council during the public consultation into the controversial proposal, due to close at the end of this month.

So far, the council has received just 488 letters opposing plans by Veolia Environmental Services to build a 380,000-tonne waste burning facility at New Barnfield off Travellers Lane.

That’s despite concerted efforts from the North Mymms Green Belt Society and Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI), both of which have delivered leaflets to thousands of households urging people to write in.

Now Clive Bennett, deputy chairman of the North Mymms Green Belt Society, said more people need to respond before the January 31 deadline – or risk seeing the incinerator plans passed.

“It’s pathetic,” he said.

Read more at http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/more_help_needed_to_oppose_hatfield_incinerator_1_1176932 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/more_help_needed_to_oppose_hatfield_incinerator_1_1176932)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on January 13, 2012, 03:09:07 pm
We will all be affected by the increase in traffic on our local roads, the emissions will travel throughout our entire area, so we will all breathe them in, and the value of our houses will fall, as we are not the only ones who do not want to live near to an incinerator.
Send objections from everybody in your household, not just one.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 13, 2012, 04:48:21 pm
Came across three surveyors at Bunchleys Pond this afternoon - they were very evasive when I asked what they were doing and for whom.

As for pathetic - this week's WHT (p.31) also reveals that a full meeting of WHBC councillors has been cancelled - for the first time ever - because "there is no urgent business to be discussed."

WHBC councillors are leading the charge against the incinerator - not!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 13, 2012, 04:50:54 pm
Send objections from everybody in your household, not just one.

Just a thought, but would it be worth one of the campaign group spelling out again how to object?

This is a long thread and it's easy to get buried in information.  How about a simple step by step guide including format, address, deadline, etc.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on January 14, 2012, 01:06:38 pm
they are getting people to sign individual letters to the planning office.

anyway they look very cold but are drumming up a lot of support.

david maybe its worth tweeting this? i dont know how all that works.

bp
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 14, 2012, 03:50:24 pm
Done https://twitter.com/#!/bpnewsletter/status/158205740161564673 (https://twitter.com/#!/bpnewsletter/status/158205740161564673). For future reference you just hit the tweet button in the post, sign in and press send. Of course you need a free Twitter account first.

Will merge this with the existing thread later today.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on January 14, 2012, 10:18:53 pm

How about a simple step by step guide including format, address, deadline, etc.


Don't know if this is what you had in mind, but the following may be of interest.

The Council for the Protection of Rural England (CPRE) has a useful booklet “How to respond to planning applications”.  It can be found at - http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/attachments/article/280/HTRTPA_clickable.pdf (http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/attachments/article/280/HTRTPA_clickable.pdf)

In case that link doesn’t work, there is a link to the booklet on the right hand side of the page on http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/what-were-doing/supporting-communities-and-neighbourhoods-in-planning/advice (http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/what-were-doing/supporting-communities-and-neighbourhoods-in-planning/advice)

As with everything else to do with this topic, the booklet is fairly lengthy.  However, it is very clear, gives some useful tips and has a sample letter/email of support in Appendix 2 on page 51 and of objection in Appendix 3 on page 57.  Both provide a format.

Welwyn Hatfield Friends of the Earth plan to be at Hatfield Market on the next 2 Saturdays and Wednesday 25th January.  They had copies of the Hatfield Anti Incineration objection form on their stall there today and it can be printed out from the link on the right hand side of http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)  If this form is used it is important to make a personal comment on the reverse of the ‘tick box’ page as otherwise it will not be counted as an individual objection but rather as part of a petition.  Also, it is important that each member of a household completes a form or sends a letter or email with their views.  For example, an objection from Mrs & Mr, though two people, will only count as one objection.  The form could also be used for ideas from which to prepare a letter of objection.

Details of how to submit your support/objection can be found at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/) - scroll down the page to the section headed “Getting involved”.  The consultation is due to end on 31st January and all correspondence must be received by that date.

Remember to include the planning application number which is 6/2570-11 on all forms of correspondence.  The usual format for a letter/email is to include a summary of what the application proposes, where it is (the site) and who is proposing it (the applicant).  So an acceptable heading might be

PLANNING APPLICATION NO. 6/2570-11
Proposal for the construction and operation of a recycling and energy recovery facility at New Barnfield by Veolia Environmental Services Ltd.

If you wish to agree with the proposal the same format can be used.

The online response form (www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadRepresentation.do?pprAplId=20724 (http://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadRepresentation.do?pprAplId=20724)) is restricted to 3,900 characters and gives the options of Support, Object, Concern Raised or No Comment.  For an explanation of “Concern Raised” it might be best to phone Spatial & Land Use Planning on 01992 556266 or email newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk 

A "Frequently Asked Questions for New Barnfield Application" can be found at http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/newbarnfieldfaqs.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/newbarnfieldfaqs.pdf) - it says a bit about the planning decision process and gives information about the responses received so far.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Webman on January 15, 2012, 10:03:18 am
Is it local?
The incinerator fallout zone is said to be 14 miles in diameter but because of our prevailing winds Stevenage, Hertford (especially elevated areas like county hall), Ware, WGC, Hoddesdon and even Harlow would all be receiving more than their fair share of toxic debris. The discussion so far appears to be quite local and I am wondering if there has been any awareness or debate of health issues in the wider impact zone?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 15, 2012, 10:44:59 am
The impact in terms of cost to taxpayers definitely in national and the fallout zone is potentially infinite as we're talking about ultrafine particles as well (so theoretically at least they could get caught in the jetstream and carried just about anywhere).

The objection document was drawn up as my own personal objection so apologies if it seems to focus mainly on Hatfield.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on January 18, 2012, 09:26:12 pm
From the perspective of getting more people involved and really engaged in this, are there any local estate agents willing to put there neck out and forecast what could be the effect on house prices in Welham Green, Brookmans Park and more widely in Hatfield if the incinerator was built?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on January 20, 2012, 12:14:49 pm
From the perspective of getting more people involved and really engaged in this, are there any local estate agents willing to put there neck out and forecast what could be the effect on house prices in Welham Green, Brookmans Park and more widely in Hatfield if the incinerator was built?

From my experience, any effect on house prices is not a planning consideration and will be ignored by the planning officers and committee.  Sad but true.

Has anyone noted anything in the mass of documents about the cost of constructing and maintaining this unusual building compared with the 'normal' boxy structure.  Taking into account the activities within the building I reckon the shell will need a lot of maintenance to keep it weatherproof.  This is not a landmark facility like Sydney Opera House, it is an incinerator for goodness sake!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 20, 2012, 03:21:27 pm
From my experience, any effect on house prices is not a planning consideration and will be ignored by the planning officers and committee.  Sad but true.

I believe you are correct - apparently you're only entitled to compensation if your property is fully or partially demolished to make way for the construction (but I'm no expert on these matters).

It's also noticeable that although several thousand students attend the University of Hertfordshire with its two Hatfield campuses there doesn't seem to be any support from either the UH authorities or the student body. Rather ironic given their frequent professions of friendship and partnership.

A HAI contact told me he had spoken to the new Vice Chancellor and claimed that he had said the Uni would not be getting involved. If correct, this only adds insult to injury as a major reason why there's been such a poor response from people in Hatfield is that a huge number of properties in south Hatfield in particular are HMOs (houses in multiple occupation) - used by students and now migrant workers (which has resulted in more and more families moving away - and their properties being sold and becoming more HMOs).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 21, 2012, 02:50:44 pm
The University of Hertfordshire is increasingly looking like being part of the problem with their 'do nothing to stand up for Hatfield (and surroundings)' approach to the threat posed by Veolia's incinerator.

According to Veolia's Transport Assessment - Appendix C, p.15:

Point 1.5.3 states that approximately 14,000 students and 1,800 staff use the main College Lane Campus in Hatfield, while approximately 1,550 students and 380 staff use the de Havilland Campus on the old airfield.

It's also interesting that although there are a large number of students resident (in halls of residence and in the community) throughout central and south Hatfield in particular they do not appear to have taken part in the various consultations - even though UH is a major stakeholder in the town.

In short, IF UH was the friend and partner it claims to be there would be no shortage of objections to the incinerator plans.

Equally interesting is that a little birdie told me that although a significant recycler, UH is listed in a special ENDS (Environmental Data Services) report (December 2011, p.18, Table 3) as one of the highest university carbon emitters (No.14 - out of 20).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on January 21, 2012, 06:31:13 pm
At a protest meeting held this afternoon in Colney Heath a number of people reported that they had had difficulty lodging their objections via the online form, mainly the page not loading after some time of waiting and freezing when they tried to submit their comments.  Has anyone else encountered this?

Just a reminder that emails can be sent to newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk

Or can be sent by letter to:
 
New Barnfield Planning Team, Spatial and Land Use Planning, CHN216, County Hall, Pegs Lane, Hertford, Hertfordshire, SG13 8DN.

All objections have to be received by 31st January 2012. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 24, 2012, 11:25:41 am
Exactly one week to the closing date (please remember: mailed objections need to be received at County Hall by 31 January 2012 to be included).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on January 24, 2012, 11:32:09 am
Thanks for the reminder.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 25, 2012, 12:39:05 pm
You're welcome.

As for Hatfield Town Council and WHBC's opposition: there was no mention of the incinerator on the WHBC noticeboard in Hatfield and a poster appeared on the HTC one a couple of days ago after this glaring omission was reported to a councillor.

Quite frankly, I'm beginning to think Hatfield is a write-off as there are not enough people willing to act (no shortage of those willing to talk).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 26, 2012, 11:11:13 am
Amazingly, given that there's less than a week to go, Hatfield Town Council held a meeting yesterday, which was poorly attended (mainly the usual suspects) - probably about 70 members of the public (possibly less).

There was a model of site - provided by Veolia - in the foyer. As seems usual, it is inaccurate and shows the setting as mainly industrial with only about 5 houses visible in a corner. Most interestingly, it shows the field bordering Bunchleys Pond and New Barnfield as ploughed (it's not been ploughed for years).

While the Council did vote to put in an objection, they've left no time to whip up support (not that they probably would have if they did have time).

Some late advice from HAI speaker Paul Zukowskyj on planning objections:
1. Encroachment on to Green Belt - the incinerator site and roadworks around it will be bigger than the existing developed footprint.

2. Threat to a European-protected species - the operation and the trucks will create a disturbance.

3. Flaws in the Alternative Site Assessments model - in particular, the scoring of the site near the University of Hertfordshire was incorrect, so it wasn't given further consideration when it should have.
 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: James Bentall on January 26, 2012, 11:28:29 am
At the North Mymms Parish Council meeting last night, most of the councillors present (including Cllr Bill Storey who is also our county councillor) voted in favour of sending a letter of objection to the planning Committee. The exceptions were Cllr S Boulton and Cllr I Dean who abstained as they are on the Borough Council Planning committee and wish to discuss it there instead. A copy of the letter is being sent to me and the other local residents who were present last night, I will check with the Clerk as to whether I can post it on here as well.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on January 26, 2012, 11:32:08 am
I think James slightly misunderstood the position of Stephen Boulton and Irene Dean.  Stephen is chairman of the WHBC Planning Control Committee, and Irene is a committee member.  They have to demonstrate that they have not made up their minds before that committee has discussed the incinerator application.   Bill Storey is not on the County Council Planning Committee so he was able  to vote at the parish council meeting.  All three took part in the debate.

A bit like the recent law court jury member who checked the internet for info on the defendant before the case was fully heard.  That jurist went to prison!   Not that Stephen and Irene would go to prison but it could complicate matters if, as hoped by many including me, the application is refused.

North Mymms District Green Belt Soc is also making the final touches to its objections.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: James Bentall on January 26, 2012, 01:20:47 pm
I think James slightly misunderstood the position of Stephen Boulton and Irene Dean.

Thanks for the clarification Bob. I understood their position, but perhaps could have explained it better!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on January 26, 2012, 02:29:18 pm
At last night's meeting at Hatfield Town Council the representative from Veolia, Andrew Milsted, showed a slide of projected HGV movements. 

Sunday - 56
Saturday - 206-256
Mon-Fri - 300-372

He said these figures had been worked out using the weight of waste and capacity of lorries used to transport it.  The lower figure is the best scenario and the higher, the worst.  I am assuming that these are total, i.e., in and out, movements but he didn't confirm this and the public were not allowed to ask questions.   

He also said that there would be fewer vehicles passing the school when the facility is operational.  The 'public gallery' made an appropriate response.  But, in fact, this could be true - the traffic assessment has only taken Peak Hours into consideration.  That is, 8.00-9.00 am and 5.00-6.00 pm ... and when is the library open?

This article may be of interest.  http://www.resource.uk.com/article/Techniques_Innovation/Puzzling_over_incineration (http://www.resource.uk.com/article/Techniques_Innovation/Puzzling_over_incineration)  Refreshing to find both sides of the argument presented.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 26, 2012, 03:01:43 pm
At the North Mymms Parish Council meeting last night, most of the councillors present (including Cllr Bill Storey who is also our county councillor) voted in favour of sending a letter of objection to the planning Committee.

Ah, the self same Cllr Bill Storey who while wearing his(s) HCC hat got up and spoke (and then voted) against a LibDem proposal which would have seen New Barnfield excluded from the site list on the basis it was next to a special needs school.

The article in Ex Libris's post mentions Dioxins in Agent Orange, may be we need something else from the Vietnam War - the Phoenix Program - to deal with these treacherous politicians and university whose actions are harming us.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Adrienne on January 26, 2012, 10:36:57 pm
We desperately need you to complete the attached form -BEFORE Tues 31st Jan)-and object to the planning application from Veolia from building a 380,000 tonne incinerator in Hatfield to burn waste from all around Hertfordshire and North London. This site is within 300m from family homes, adjacent to a special needs school and there are 4 other primary and a secondary school within half a mile.  Dust bins lorries will be travelling from all over Hertsmere in all directions with a minimum of 480 extra lorry movements a day from 5am-9pm!! This monster waste plant will have an adverse effect on a 10-15 mile radius of Hatfield. It will emit damaging nano-particles and increase CO2 emissions, lower house prices and use up valuable resources. We have to “Manage our Resources” and not “Energise our Waste” as the worlds population is reaching 8 billion, we cannot continue to consume 2.5 planets of what the earth provides and still expect a wealth of recourses left for our children to enjoy or even be able to sustain a basic subsistence. Use the link to the simple response form
http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/planning%20response%20form%20final.pdf (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/planning%20response%20form%20final.pdf)
Or you can respond online through www.hertsdirect.org (http://www.hertsdirect.org) -(Search for New Barnfield Planning Application)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on January 27, 2012, 11:21:00 am
Absolutely agree Adrienne, the emissions and traffic will affect us all, over the whole area, the lorries will block the local roads. I definitely don't want my children, & possibly in 20 years time, my grandchildren breathing in these emissions. I chose to live in a rural area rather than London because I wanted clean air to breathe. Who knows what schools we may want our children to attend in 10 /15 years time - if we want a girls school it would have to be Hatfield.
Please don't just think that 'everybody else' will object - we need everyone to do it NOW - every single letter will help, otherwise HCC will just walk all over us. We didn't vote for this, we don't even need it - we are recycling so much more these days. When it comes to local HCC elections I will certainly  never trust a conservative  councillor again.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 28, 2012, 01:27:02 pm
Health Protection Agency confirms new incinerator study - 24 January 2012

"A new study to further extend the evidence base as to whether emissions from modern well run Municipal Waste Incinerators affect human health has been approved by the Health Protection Agency. The HPA’s current position that well run and regulated modern Municipal Waste Incinerators (MWIs) are not a significant risk to public health remains valid, but the study is being carried out to extend the evidence base and to provide further information to the public on this subject."
http://www.hpa.org.uk/NewsCentre/NationalPressReleases/2012PressReleases/120124Incineratorstudystatement/ (http://www.hpa.org.uk/NewsCentre/NationalPressReleases/2012PressReleases/120124Incineratorstudystatement/)

The fact that they feel it necessary to conduct the study means that they didn't have the information to provide an assurance in the first place - as to their definition of 'well-run'...
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Jean Hockings on January 28, 2012, 07:15:02 pm
News of this new study by the HPA has come at a critical time with the deadline for objections to the planning application so imminent.
I followed the links on the HPA site, where, under Research and Development , can be found this:
"Chronic Exposures and Long-Term Health Effects
The long term health effects of chronic low level exposure to harmful chemicals are currently less well understood than the effects of single, high level exposure. The mechanisms underlying the toxic effects of chronic exposure are likely to be very different from the mechanisms underlying acute effects. This is particularly important for understanding the causes of many diseases including cancer and degenerative diseases of the nervous system, as well as negative effects on reproduction."

In my letter to the Planning Team, I drew their attention to the submission by Professor Deardon to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee waste policy review which can be seen here:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmenvfru/230/230we57.htm (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmenvfru/230/230we57.htm)
He makes a similar point  in para 4.7:
"Thus evidence is accumulating that low, perhaps even very low, levels of dioxins and other toxicants can carry very serious health risks. THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS CANNOT BE OVER-EMPHASISED, for it turns environmental toxicology on its head. It means, in my view, that not a single new incinerator should be built, and existing incinerators should be closed down as quickly as possible."

In the same letter I also quoted what James Clappison, MP for Hertsmere, said in February 2011, in a debate on incineration in the Commons, which makes for interesting reading - namely that Hertfordshire CC were making plans for an incinerator to be built before the results of the major waste policy review by the Government were published.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110216/debtext/110216-0004.htm#11021711001091 (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110216/debtext/110216-0004.htm#11021711001091)

The conclusion I draw is that an incinerator is to be built in an urban area which is far in excess of requirements for Hertfordshire  - but most importantly, the toxic waste from which may affect the health of the population in ways which may not become apparent for many years to come.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 29, 2012, 08:36:03 am
We desperately need you to complete the attached form -BEFORE Tues 31st Jan)-and object to the planning application from Veolia from building a 380,000 tonne incinerator in Hatfield.  Use the link to the simple response form
http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/planning%20response%20form%20final.pdf (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/planning%20response%20form%20final.pdf)
Or respond online through www.hertsdirect.org (http://www.hertsdirect.org) -(Search for New Barnfield Planning Application)

Incinerator Sunday - the clock is ticking on the future of our local environment.  With less than three complete days to go what better way to spend a foggy and damp Sunday than ensuring you have your say on the proposed Hatfield incinerator.  You currently have a chance to voice your opinions - in a little more than 48 hours you may not.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 29, 2012, 09:55:18 am
I see the elected representatives to The Welsh Assembly have agreed to democratic and public scrutiny of their strategy for waste management.  (see extract of text and link to a BBC News Online article below).  Have our elected representatives been pushing for similar?  And if not, why not?

Quote

Waste plant plan opponents to give evidence at assembly

Opponents of plans to develop waste incinerators around Wales have welcomed the opportunity to put their arguments in person to assembly members.

The National Assembly's petitions committee is conducting an inquiry after receiving three separate petitions.

They are opposing energy from waste plants planned in south east and north Wales.

Committee members have said they will call on all sides to give evidence.

Those for and against the plans will give oral evidence on the advantages and disadvantages of incineration and the best way to dispose of non-recyclable waste.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-16772549 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-16772549)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 29, 2012, 10:55:42 am
FYI, for those who want to register objections online here is the link to the form.

https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadRepresentation.do?pprAplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadRepresentation.do?pprAplId=20724)

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 29, 2012, 11:01:16 am
Also you can print out, complete, scan and email the attached form

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/planning%20response%20form%20final.pdf (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/planning%20response%20form%20final.pdf)

to newbarnfieldplanning (at) herts.gov.uk
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 30, 2012, 10:08:29 am
Interesting despite all their avowals of being opposed to the incinerator from councillors and politicians that it is members of the general public who are leading the opposition.

Mind you, to be fair, to date some of our elected representatives have supported sticking an incinerator in our neighbourhood, so it's not surprising that they aren't leading the charge against it.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Helen on January 30, 2012, 12:10:59 pm
Just a thought - & probably too late to do anything about it - I see that the University was approached but what about the Sudents' Union? As the name implies, this is a separate student-led body, & usually far more active in campaigns such as this...
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 30, 2012, 02:36:04 pm
I believe that they were contacted by HAI (and even if they weren't given that these people are supposed to be intellectuals surely must know of it).

There usually also are environmental groups / societies within uni's - again, I'm not aware of any involvement by them (although people canvassing for signatures did say that students they approached were willing to sign up).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Helen on January 30, 2012, 02:48:38 pm
Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 30, 2012, 02:58:06 pm
Five minutes of your time

By the way, filling out the forms, both paper and online - links here in post number 369 (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php/topic,1651.msg28270.html#msg28270) and in post number 370 (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php/topic,1651.msg28271.html#msg28271) - took literally five minutes to do both.

Safer environment for our kids

So go on, if you care about the future of the environment, spare five minutes tonight. Pour yourself a glass of wine, a beer or make a nice cuppa and get on with filling in both the online form and the paper form (which you can scan and email) and do your part to make this place a safer enviornment for our kids and our kids' kids.

Don't end up on Tuesday afternoon regretting being too busy to have had your say. 

Wouldn't it be terrible if that one objection not made would have tipped the balance!

 ;)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Greybeard on January 30, 2012, 04:47:37 pm
Thanks for highlighting the Herts CC online submission form again, David (in the post above). Also to the many industrious contributors here who have provided plenty of material which should worry the councillors.

Let's hope for a late rush of objections.

I also think our councillors have been getting a pretty easy ride so far.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 31, 2012, 04:19:47 pm
Easy and also apparently lucrative.

According to the HCC website members allowances page (www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/councillors/mmbrsall/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/councillors/mmbrsall/)) the following Hatfield reps on the county council were paid in 2009/10 (2010/11 figures not available):

Mr SJ Pile        £ 30,150.32
Mr WA Storey £ 10,089.33
Mrs CL Berry  £ 11,641.53

Mr DA Ashley   £ 31,256.92 (in charge of the Waste Management Committee)
Mr RIN Gordon £ 52,068.51 (County Council leader)

http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/a/allowpaid0910.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/a/allowpaid0910.pdf)

Members of HAI were out in the cold this morning in a final push to get people to sign up - didn't see any councillors among them.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 02, 2012, 11:49:43 am
Incinerator objections top 4,500
http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_news/9504196.Incinerator_Objections_Top_4_500/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_news/9504196.Incinerator_Objections_Top_4_500/)

While we await the final numbers and further developments, it is worth considering how we ended up in this position in the first place (not least of all because even worse will follow if people don't wake up to what has been going on - and things like an incinerator affect a much broader area). Given the size of the population affected, the numbers are very low (the anti-Tesco proposals in WGC got 14,000).

I believe a lot is down to the governance of Hatfield - a lopsided admin located and weighted in favour of WGC. And a dysfunctional Hatfield - made a lot worse by the actions (or rather lack of them) of the University of Hertfordshire (ironically it started life as the former Hatfield Polytechnic). I've highlighted some of its impact on the town on the main Hatfield forum.

http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,8289.0.html#msg68823 (http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,8289.0.html#msg68823)

Personally, I'm beginning to think the rot has set in too deep (and my personal circumstances are likely to be different) but for those of you who plan on staying put you may want to keep a closer eye on what's going on in the town closest to you - which could have been turned into a nice place to visit if it had been given a fair crack of the whip.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on February 02, 2012, 12:24:46 pm
Need I remind you that Paul Z is a local University lecturer?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 02, 2012, 05:30:21 pm
One who has made it clear that he is acting strictly in a private / political (he was a LibDem parliamentary candidate) capacity - as pointed out in the opening post in that thread (Para 3).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on February 03, 2012, 06:12:13 pm
5759 responses received by HCC to date - http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)

You can read responses received from Statuatory Consultees at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/newbarnfieldstatconres/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/newbarnfieldstatconres/)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 05, 2012, 08:14:47 am
Funny - the list of statutory consultees include Hertford Town Council and the Garden History Society but not Hatfield Town Council or Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peter Hastings on February 06, 2012, 03:50:50 pm
No they are showing some responses from people and at the top is a list of statutory consultees which is not the same at all. However I am surprised that there are no elected bodies on the statutory list (apart from our MP of course) as I am sure WHBC are indeed statutory consultees but I stand to be corrected.

North Mymms Parish Council sent in a detailed, fair and strong letter of objection which doesn't seem to be there either?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on February 06, 2012, 06:47:47 pm
I received a "pre submission waste site allocation" consultation email from HCC, which is linked to the plans for an incinerator.

Objections to this allocation have to show the document to be "unsound".   

A link to the consultation is here http://consult.hertscc.gov.uk/portal/pre-submission_waste_site_allocations?pointId=2025715. (http://consult.hertscc.gov.uk/portal/pre-submission_waste_site_allocations?pointId=2025715.) 

I plan to object but it is important that the objection is  effective; is anyone able to give a qualified opinion on grounds for objection?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on February 07, 2012, 12:27:50 pm
I plan to object but it is important that the objection is  effective; is anyone able to give a qualified opinion on grounds for objection?

The NM Green Belt Soc will be studying this document and may comment on it, but it is a bit too soon to say any more than that.  Its bullet points on New Barnfield are interesting.

Speaking purely as an individual, I find it a bit 'cart before horse' that a planning application has been made for New Barnfield BEFORE completion of a 'waste site allocation' is agreed by the County Council.  What would happen if the incinerator is approved by the HCC planners only for the HCC Waste Allocation process decides that New Barnfield is unsuitable?  It does make you wonder about HCC.  Left hand and right hand.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on February 07, 2012, 04:51:25 pm
Funny - the list of statutory consultees include Hertford Town Council and the Garden History Society but not Hatfield Town Council or Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council.

I have not checked but it is possible that the HCC website has only listed statutory consultees who have responded to date.  The Borough Council is a statutory consultee and it appears to have a different deadline than we mere mortals!  WHBC's comments on this application will decided soon at a planning meeting.  The Borough Council is already on record as being very strongly against the proposal.

North Mymms Parish Council has objected, and I believe that Hatfield Town Council and Colney Heath Parish Council have also objected.

The HCC website says that their (HCC's) planning committee is expected to consider the application at its meeting in June or July.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: YaelKahn on February 07, 2012, 06:28:44 pm
We are opposing Veolia's massive incinerator at Hoddesdon.
It can be stopped if Veolia losses its bid for the £1.2bn Fuel contract with NLWA [North London Waste Authority] - the vote is this Friday [see more details below].
Hope you can join our (http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/174578_278373532228691_853261571_n.jpg) protest this Friday, 10th February, 9-9:30am.
We timed this protest to when the NLWA councillors will be coming to vote on whether to deselect Veolia from the Fuel tender.
No2VAG [No to Veolia Action Group] is aiming to block Veolia from north London colossal £4.7billion contracts.
Arrive at 8:45am if you want your face painted and/or put on a white overall.
http://www.facebook.com/events/278373532228691/ (http://www.facebook.com/events/278373532228691/)
We have sent the NLWA and other bodies our objections, including that in spite of giving the impression that it is CHP it is NOT.
It will be great to discuss our and your campaigns.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 09, 2012, 08:43:12 am
As a key phase of the Battle for New Barnfield ends, HCC has launched its next salvo ie. waste site allocations:

Pre-submission (Feb-Mar 2012)
This document has taken into consideration the views expressed at the previous stages of consultation and will be subject to further public consultation after which it will be submitted to the Secretary of State for examination.
http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/)

The Waste Site Allocations document is currently on consultation from 6 February until 19 March 2012.
http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/wsacons/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/wsacons/)

Index of Sites in Welwyn Hatfield Borough

Inset Map-027  AS036 Roehyde
Located southwest of Hatfield on land at junction 3 of the A1(M). In front of UH.

Inset Map-039  AS048 Travellers Lane New Barnfield Centre  ELAS048a Travellers Lane
Situated to the south of Hatfield, adjacent to Traveller’s Lane employment area (basically bordering the incinerator - if that goes ahead this site will almost certainly be used as they'll argue that as waste is already being brought here it reduces the need for further transportation)

Inset Map-041 ELAS044 Hatfield Aerodrome
Interestingly, they haven't included any further notes on this or some of the other sites.
http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/a/wasappwhb (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/a/wasappwhb)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 11, 2012, 01:46:31 pm
Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) is preparing leaflets for the campaign against this latest incursion (although it is part and parcel of HCC's 'grand design' for the area).

If anyone is willing to help deliver leaflets, please email them at:
info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: YaelKahn on February 13, 2012, 12:19:44 am
It seems Veolia might have been shortlisted for the incinerator at Hoddesdon, by the NLWA.
The NLWA has not disclosed its decision whether to deselect Veolia from the £1.2bn Fuel use contract, which would end its plan for an incinerator at Hoddesdon. However, the NLWA chair, Clyde Loakes, looked rather ebullient at the 10 Feb NLWA meeting [unlike on the 13 Dec 11 meeting], which suggests Veolia was probably shortlisted  >:(
We are not giving up and will continue our campaign to block Veolia, but whether Veolia would eventually fail to win this contract will only be known at the end of the year.


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Greybeard on February 14, 2012, 09:49:07 am
Quote
THE public’s views are again being sought over potential waste disposal sites in Hertfordshire – just days after a consultation on the hated Hatfield incinerator scheme closed.

A new six-week consultation opened on Monday, asking residents how they thought best to dispose with around three million tonnes of the county’s waste each year.

The council has identified specific sites that might be suitable for waste treatment facilities, including Roehyde in Hatfield and Birchall Lane in Cole Green, as well as the New Barnfield site earmarked for the incinerator.

Responses to the consultation will be submitted to the Secretary of State.

The document will then be subject to a public examination later in the year.

County councillor Richard Thake, cabinet member for environment, said: “Hertfordshire has to deal with around three million tonnes of waste every year and we need facilities, large and small, across the county to manage this.

“Following several previous public consultations, we are almost ready to submit our plans to the Secretary of State for examination. But before we do that, we need to consult people one more time to get their views on whether our plans are sound.

“While the two consultations are happening close together, they are on completely separate topics.

“The consultation that has just closed was on a specific planning application for the New Barnfield site. The current consultation is looking at which sites across the county might be potentially suitable for any sort of waste management facility to deal with any type of waste.

“We need sites to deal with around three million tonnes of commercial, industrial, construction and demolition waste, not just household waste. This includes facilities as diverse as factories for recycling electronic equipment, transfer stations for district council bin collections and industrial composters.

“I know it’s not ideal to be holding these consultations this close together, however we need to finalise our plans in a timely fashion and we can’t put it on hold indefinitely.”

You can view the documents and take part in the consultation via the county council’s website.

The consultation closes on Monday, March 19.

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/new_consultation_on_hertfordshire_waste_sites_1_1207865 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/new_consultation_on_hertfordshire_waste_sites_1_1207865)

Interesting to see the paper describing the incinerator project as "hated".

However, these piecemeal consultations seem an odd way to do it.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 14, 2012, 10:59:28 am
However, these piecemeal consultations seem an odd way to do it.

Not if you're trying to disguise what you're doing.

Also, if they'd come up with the grand design from the outset - massive incinerator and waste park between Hatfield and taking up much of Welham Green - there would have been a much larger uproar.

This way one part supports the other - the incinerator's there so it makes sense to stick other waste disposal facilities there. And oh look we've got the land to accommodate a rail spur so we can take waste by rail (and from a much wider catchment area than previously advertised).

The fact that HCC and Veolia timed their incinerator announcement to be 'buried' by the Royal Wedding should tell you a lot about the underhand tactics being used.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on February 14, 2012, 02:16:25 pm
Do you think we can take heart that the incinerator planned for Bedfordshire has been turned down by the Secretary of State, or does that make one in this area even more likely?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 15, 2012, 12:09:19 pm
I'm afraid the simple answer is I don't know.

I don't have any faith in the usual institutions / people to stop this ie. local councils and politicians (it's quite interesting to see how many people hold posts on more than one council and / or live in households where there is more than one councillor at that address) - and how much public money they are taking home.

Last week's WHT had an 'indignant' letter from a councillor and former mayor who was apparently unaware until a presentation at a Hatfield Town Council meeting a few days before the 31 January cut off that Veolia was planning to operate 7-days a week - this information was available months ago.

Mind you, HTC reps only attended the first Community Engagement Group meeting before Veolia put in their planning application. Their apparent lack of knowledge and interest in the town they are responsible for beggars belief.

My approach is hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 18, 2012, 10:25:09 am
Be interesting to see how active councillors are in opposing the latest aspect of the New Barnfield 'Waste Park' saga.

Some information on HCC councillors' income for being councillors (ie. representing the interests of the electorate) can be found here:
http://www.hertslis.org/hertsopendata/counspend/memallexp/ (http://www.hertslis.org/hertsopendata/counspend/memallexp/)

For example in December 2011:

Cllr. CL Berry   £ 799.00
[Who is also entitled to expenses as a WHBC Councillor]
Cllr. SJ Pile   £ 799.00   £ 332.10   £ 1,598.00   [Total: £2,729]
Cllr. WA Storey   £ 799.00

Councillors are entitled for extra income if they have additional responsibilities like chairing or seating on committees. Decisions as to who gets to sit on what appear to be at the discretion of the council leader.

Potentially a recipe for a conflict of interest.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 18, 2012, 12:40:52 pm
Further to the post above.

Allowances for WHBC councillors are listed on their website - all councillors get a basic allowance of £4,758 (presumably per annum but they are also allowed to claim expenses).

http://www.welhat.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=241 (http://www.welhat.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=241)

So, instead of closing libraries and switching off streetlights perhaps we should scrap local government which doesn't seem to be paying much attention to its primary purpose of representing the interests of ALL local voters.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on February 18, 2012, 01:07:04 pm
Trekbak, everything in this campaign doesn't all come down to MPs expenses and income. There are other things to take into consideration as well.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peter Hastings on February 19, 2012, 06:51:16 pm

So, instead of closing libraries and switching off streetlights perhaps we should scrap local government which doesn't seem to be paying much attention to its primary purpose of representing the interests of ALL local voters.

What and live by diktat from central government?! Be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 19, 2012, 08:03:57 pm
Given the performance of local government, particularly on this issue (and for Hatfield on several others) I daresay we might as well NOT have them and spare ourselves the money clearly wasted on paying for them.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 22, 2012, 02:39:23 pm
Message from HAI:

Herts County Council are moving the goalposts again.

Previously they said that the temporary move of Southfield special needs school would only happen IF planning permission for an incinerator was granted.

However, in what appears to be a calculated move to facilitate the granting of planning permission, they are now proposing to force the move BEFORE the decision on planning permission is made - with the children moved to the temporary site by September 2012.

Should planning permission not be granted then the children will be moved back again after a year.

There will be a meeting on the issue at County Hall on Tuesday, 28 February 2012. Please attend if you can.

----------------------------------------

Speaking personally, I find this plans to treat special needs kids like a football to further the commercial interests of a multinational corporation deeply distasteful. Not to mention a revolting waste of taxpayers funds at a time when there is allegedly no money to pay for such 'luxuries' as street lighting.

Hatfield's student populace did take part in the student demos in London but have been far less interested in what's happening under their noses. They may want to consider that any waste of public funds also affects them - less cash for student grants (ie. higher fees), and they'll also be picking up the tab for the incinerator's 25-year life.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on February 22, 2012, 03:54:18 pm
Hatfield's student populace ...... may want to consider that any waste of public funds also affects them - less cash for student grants (ie. higher fees), and they'll also be picking up the tab for the incinerator's 25-year life.

Hatfield students live in rented housing and come from elsewhere in the country and from overseas so they will not be picking up the tab for the next 25 years.  The effect on student fees will be nil.  So why should they be interested?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on February 22, 2012, 09:05:44 pm
Interesting article in Private Eye "Rotten Boroughs" about Norfolk County Council plan for waste incinerator in King's Lynn.   To cut a long story short one of the affected Borough councils in Norfolk has set aside money for a judical reivew of the decision to release "waste infrastructure credits" (formely PFI monies).   

There maybe some parallels with the HCC proposals for an incinerator here.   HCC made much in their initial business case of the PFI credits (worth £millions) they "won" with their proposal for an incinerator.   Someone independent needs to look again at whether those PFI credits are a "safe bet" or whether they pose an unacceptable risk to the business case and therefore the financial viability and value for money for Hertfordshire council tax payers from the incinerator proposal.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on February 23, 2012, 08:26:25 am

Someone independent needs to look again at whether those PFI credits are a "safe bet" or whether they pose an unacceptable risk to the business case and therefore the financial viability and value for money for Hertfordshire council tax payers from the incinerator proposal.

You may be interested in post #181 (31 July) for some information on PFI credits.

A retired Fellow from the University of East Anglia, Chris Edwards, has done a great deal of work on this subject for the Kings Lynn Campaign.  Links below:

http://www.klwin.org/UrgentCase.pdf (http://www.klwin.org/UrgentCase.pdf)
http://www.farmerscampaign.org/pages/pfi.html (http://www.farmerscampaign.org/pages/pfi.html)

and an informative video by him (12 mins) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDuTtSH-KD8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDuTtSH-KD8)             
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on February 23, 2012, 10:32:20 am
Very interesting, and I could actually understand all he said. 

Do we know if Hertfordshire County Council's PFI grant has been confirmed?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on February 23, 2012, 12:26:28 pm
Do we know if Hertfordshire County Council's PFI grant has been confirmed?

It looks as though the PFI grant can only be claimed when the plant is operational, up till then it is an offer - http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/localgovernmentfinance/pupprivatepartnership/centralgovernment/ (http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/localgovernmentfinance/pupprivatepartnership/centralgovernment/)

This outlines the PFI process - http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/waste_pfi.pdf (http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/waste_pfi.pdf) 

There's still time to contact Caroline Spelman to let her know how unpopular this proposal is.  According to this website, she supports the safeguarding of the Green Belt - http://www.conservatives.com/People/Members_of_Parliament/Spelman_Caroline.aspx (http://www.conservatives.com/People/Members_of_Parliament/Spelman_Caroline.aspx) 


 

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 23, 2012, 12:46:12 pm
Hatfield's student populace ...... may want to consider that any waste of public funds also affects them - less cash for student grants (ie. higher fees), and they'll also be picking up the tab for the incinerator's 25-year life.

Hatfield students live in rented housing and come from elsewhere in the country and from overseas so they will not be picking up the tab for the next 25 years.  The effect on student fees will be nil.  So why should they be interested?

Because for those that do stay in Britain they, as taxpayers (whether direct or indirect or both),  will be the ones picking up the tab for the PFIs.

Also, they will have to pay for the expected impact on air quality / carbon emissions - whether that be increased NHS costs or a Carbon tax / EU fine.

Given that Veolia's finances are already looking shaky, there is the added possibility that if things go pear-shaped they'll go bust leaving taxpayers to pick up the tab.

Then there's the 'opportunity cost' - the money could potentially otherwise be used to reduce their student debts.

If they think this won't affect them they've a lot to learn.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on February 24, 2012, 11:42:44 am
I greatly admire the work that you are doing, Trekbat.  But I have to disagree with your argument concerning Hatfield students since possible long-term associated costs are a drop in the ocean in the national finances.

For what it is worth I think the very valid arguments against this incinerator could get diluted by non-issues like this.

As for Veolia going bust, dream on.  The French Government would not let it happen.  This is what Wikipedia has to say:

Veolia Environnement S.A. is a multinational French company with activities in four main service and utility areas traditionally managed by public authorities - water supply and water management, waste management, energy and transport services. In 2009, Veolia employed around 300,000 employees in 77 countries. Its revenue in that year was recorded at €34.6 billion. (my emphasis) It is quoted on Euronext Paris and the New York Stock Exchange.
Veolia Environmental Services is second in the world in waste management services. In addition to environmental and logistics services, it treats and converts hazardous and non-hazardous waste.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 24, 2012, 02:41:38 pm
Thank you. However, little drops of water make a mighty ocean / look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves.

Personally, I'd be circumspect about relying on Wikkipedia for supporting evidence.

"Irish student Shane Fitzgerald conducted an experiment to test whether journalists blindly rely upon wikipedia as a source of information. Shortly after composer Maurice Jarre died, Fitzgerald placed a false quote on the wikipedia page about him, claiming Jarre had said: "One could say my life itself has been one long soundtrack. Music was my life, music brought me to life, and music is how I will be remembered long after I leave this life. When I die there will be a final waltz playing in my head, that only I can hear."

Sure enough, the quotation soon appeared in newspapers throughout the world."
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/wikipedia_hoax (http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/wikipedia_hoax)

After Ronnie Hazlehurst died someone mischievously added some incorrect data to his Wikki entry - and among those caught out were the Beeb and The Guardian:

"Oh, and here's one you might not know. Hazlehurst also co-wrote the S Club 7 hit, Reach.

· The following correction was added on Friday October 5 2007: Ronnie Hazlehurst had no part in the writing process of the S Club 7 song, Reach, as was claimed in the blogpost above."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/organgrinder/2007/oct/02/ronniehazlehursthisgreatest1 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/organgrinder/2007/oct/02/ronniehazlehursthisgreatest1)


The FT on the other hand is a far more reliable source of information (but also not infallible).

"But it is a tired face and one that struggles to hide frustration at the persistent doubts that hang over Veolia’s prospects and its financial strength, particularly after two profit warnings last year.

Henri Proglio is putting a brave face on events that led Veolia, the French water, waste and energy services group where he is executive chairman, to report a 56 per cent plunge in net profit to €405m ($512m) last week...Mr Proglio has managed Veolia ever since it was spun out of the media conglomerate Vivendi in 2000, and to some degree he is still paying the price of that association. The group – which treats water and waste, runs urban transport systems and manages industrial energy needs among its collection of activities – took on €19bn in debt from Vivendi."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1dac51c0-0c01-11de-b87d-0000779fd2ac.html#axzz1nJFwifGe (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1dac51c0-0c01-11de-b87d-0000779fd2ac.html#axzz1nJFwifGe)

As for too big to fail - there's Enron, Equitable Life, and the banks (including Barings, Merrill Lynch and Lehmann Bros).

But you're right in that this could be a distraction from the main issue of the incinerator / waste park being forced down our throats.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: GWTSEC on February 28, 2012, 10:18:18 am
Someone sent me this link for an e-petition. The idea is to tax incineration. It seems worth signing.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2642 (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2642)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on February 28, 2012, 01:04:15 pm
This morning seven HCC councillors  granted planning permission for the temporary re-siting of Southfield School to Woods Avenue from Sept. 2012. It was such a small number because some councillors refused to discuss the item, and some did not vote.If the incinerator is refused planning permission the school will be moved back again for Sept 2013. A NEW school will be built for this temporary move, which will be demolished at the end of the process at a cost of 3.9 million pounds.  Am I the only one to object very strongly to my hard earned money being wasted in this way? It was suggested that the move should wait until a decision has been made on the incinerator, but this was ignored.  This is looking more and more like a done deal!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: GWTSEC on February 28, 2012, 01:09:36 pm
We live in a democracy. Was your councillor there? Did they vote against?
If the answer to either of these questions is 'no', I suggest you cast your vote elsewhere at the next election.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on February 28, 2012, 03:58:16 pm
It was decided at a meeting of the Development and Control Committee.  Clare Berry is on that Committee but walked out before the discussion in order not to prejudice her position on the decision about the incinerator (I think that's why).  Neither Bill Storey nor Stuart Pile are on the Committee.  Both were in attendance, and as local representatives were allowed to speak.  Stuart Pile spoke very convincingly about why the move should be delayed until the incinerator is a certainty.  Bill Storey stayed silent.

That such an important decision should be made by seven men........................................

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 28, 2012, 09:25:19 pm
"Hertfordshire County Council has approved planning permission for Southfield School in Travellers Lane to relocate to the former playing fields of Howe Dell School off Woods Avenue, Hatfield.

It means the school, which supports children with autism and learning difficulties, will relocate this summer for a period of five years, moving back if and when the incinerator at New Barnfield is built...And committee vice chairman Cllr Bryan Hammond, deputising for the absent Cllr Smith, said: “I think we’ve come to the right conclusion, in that the priority is that these kids are settled.”"
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_special_needs_school_relocation_approved_1_1222670 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_special_needs_school_relocation_approved_1_1222670)

Something I find particularly nauseating about this whole business is HCC councillors trying to pass off that they are simply doing what is best for the special needs kids, when in reality they are treating them like pawns - or worse.

"If Veolia Environmental Services’ application to build a 380,000-tonne facility at New Barnfield is subsequently defeated, the school would return to New Barnfield after 12 months."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/southfield_move_set_for_this_summer_1_1218004 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/southfield_move_set_for_this_summer_1_1218004)

Given that toxic emissions are pretty much inevitable, even after 5 years how can they move the children back to the site when the incinerator is operational.

Poisoning the handicapped - it's what I'd expect from Nazi Germany but not from an English County Council.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on February 28, 2012, 09:34:56 pm
Paul Zukowskyj has posted this on the "No to the Hatfield Incinerator" facebook page

Paul Zukowskyj
STOP PRESS!!!!! Didn't mention this before but last week when I asked to speak at the committee meeting, I sent an email to the DCLG asking for this application to be called in as it was directly pertinent to the incinerator application and it also was development on playing fields, pertinent to national policy. They've just sent a letter to HCC and CALLED IN THE SCHOOL MOVE!
That means permission to move CANNOT be given by HCC and the Secretary of State will decide whether the applications should be treated separately, or together, and whether to grant.
All I'll say is that this PROPERLY puts the skids under HCC's plans.
We now are likely to get a planning inquiry with an independent inspector, scrutiny of all their documents, the whole bit! Just the best news I've had in MONTHS!!!!!
LikeUnlike ·  ·Follow PostUnfollow Post · 3 hours ago
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on February 28, 2012, 10:16:27 pm
Paul Zukowskyj
STOP PRESS!!!!! Didn't mention this before but last week when I asked to speak at the committee meeting, I sent an email to the DCLG asking for this application to be called in as it was directly pertinent to the incinerator application and it also was development on playing fields, pertinent to national policy. They've just sent a letter to HCC and CALLED IN THE SCHOOL MOVE!
That means permission to move CANNOT be given by HCC and the Secretary of State will decide whether the applications should be treated separately, or together, and whether to grant.
All I'll say is that this PROPERLY puts the skids under HCC's plans.
We now are likely to get a planning inquiry with an independent inspector, scrutiny of all their documents, the whole bit! Just the best news I've had in MONTHS!!!!!

Anyone with a Facebook account can follow this as it's being discussed on the No To The Hatfield Incinerator Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_92447465468&ap=1).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: North Mymms Youth Project on February 28, 2012, 10:17:05 pm
OK. HCC I know. But what/who is a DCLG?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: James Bentall on February 28, 2012, 10:18:04 pm
HCC I know. But who/what is a DCLG?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on February 28, 2012, 10:19:35 pm
HCC I know. But who/what is a DCLG?

It's the Department for Communities and Local Government.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/ (http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/)

For those not sure what HCC is, that stands for Hertfordshire County Council

http://www.hertsdirect.org/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 29, 2012, 08:20:56 am
Excellent news:

"Government intervenes in Hatfield special needs school move...In another dramatic twist in the on-going incinerator saga, the letter refuses the council permission to grant the Southfield application “without specific authorisation”.

The letter, seen by the Welwyn Hatfield Times, is addressed to the council’s principle planning officer Chay Dempster from Dave Jones, writing on behalf of Mr Pickles.

It reads: “In exercise of his powers under Article 25 of the Town and Country Planning (Development Management Procedure) Order 2010, the Secretary of State hereby directs your Council not to grant this application without specific authorisation.

“This direction is issued to enable him to consider whether he should direct under section 77 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 that the application should be referred to him for determination.”

The letter also calls for all details of the proposals and associated plans and documents be sent to the Secretary of State’s office “as soon as possible”.

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/government_intervenes_in_hatfield_special_needs_school_move_1_1222898 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/government_intervenes_in_hatfield_special_needs_school_move_1_1222898)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on February 29, 2012, 09:27:31 am
Can anyone explain how the calling in process works in terms of steps needed and timescale, please?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on February 29, 2012, 10:34:11 am
Can anyone explain how the calling in process works in terms of steps needed and timescale, please?

Information on

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/planning/appeals/otherappealscasework/calledin (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/planning/appeals/otherappealscasework/calledin)

http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/planning-system/departure-applications (http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/planning-system/departure-applications)

As I understand it ... when planning permission was given for housing to be built on the Howe Dell site, it was with a condition that the rest of the land would be kept for use as playing fields.  Siting a school there, even temporarily, is therefore a major departure from that condition.  As such the Secretary of State has "called-in" the planning application, so directing the council not to grant permission on the application without his specific authorisation.  Firstly, he will now consider whether the application should be referred to him to make the decision.  He will then do one of three things: allow HCC to make the decision, give the go-ahead himself or decide that permission should be refused. 

It could be a lengthy process! 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on March 01, 2012, 05:47:05 pm
The 'direction' from the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) means HCC CANNOT grant permission until the DCLG allows them, and allows the DCLG to grant or refuse permission if they decide that would be appropriate. What is most interesting is this 'direction' is not time limited, so they could decide, were it thought appropriate, to hold the process until the incinerator application is decided. My hope is that they will decide the move of the school is part and parcel of a single development scheme and should therefore be applied for as a single application for a multiple-site scheme, which is what this effectively is. HCC were trying to pull a fast one by separating the applications.

The hope or expectation would then be that the DCLG would determine the two applications together as a single scheme and would instigate a public inquiry to determine all the issues in the case. In this instance I sincerely believe the application as it stands would fail and the whole stupid scheme would disappear, hopefully never to reappear.

Wish I could have been a 'fly on the wall' when that direction reached HCC's planning department.....

Regards,

Paul
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on March 01, 2012, 09:18:30 pm
Me too! I would have loved to have been there as they got the news.  I realise that I am quite ignorant when it comes to local government & I wonder if anyone can help me to understand -At County Hall on Tuesday morning most of the other planning decisions had 15 votes, but when it came to the Barnfield debate 2 councillors walked out, which left 13, and yet only seven voted. If the two that walked out and the other six had all voted against the planning application surely it would have been turned down, so why didn't they vote?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on March 01, 2012, 11:53:04 pm
Didn't three walk out at the beginning, and then two more? 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 02, 2012, 10:53:10 am
Congratulations and 'thank you' to Paul for his efforts and in securing this referral.

As for the councillors - as we've already seen, Hatfield's reps are in favour of the incinerator (2 of the 3 have already spoken and voted against a LibDem proposal to exclude New Barnfield from the site list on the grounds that it was next to a special needs school - and that was the second time that amendment was defeated.

As for the one who did speak out that was Stuart Pile, and his 'conversion' to the HAI cause is only very recent (and I suspect it's purely as a result of HAI pressure, and a desire to save his electoral neck).

Interestingly, the Welwyn Hatfield Times describes him as "a long-term opponent of the incinerator "
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_special_needs_school_relocation_approved_1_1222670 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_special_needs_school_relocation_approved_1_1222670)

Apparently they don't read their own paper as their article (24/03/10, p11) starts:
"A County Councillor from Hatfield has described the link between incineration and human health problems as "tenuous at best". Tory councillor Stuart Pile, who represents South Hatfield, alse said he remained to be convinced that any incineration plant built in Hertfordshire would be unsafe."

The article also goes on to state: "...Cllr Pile said that lorry movements to an incinerator would pale into insignificance when compared to the extra car movements which would arise if New Barnfield were used for housing."

It is also worth remembering that Cllr Pile was also Hatfield's rep on the HCC Library panel that decided to move the Central Resources Library to WGC, leading to a loss of jobs, the break up of the collection and an eventual massive cut in library provision in Hatfield.

Of course, if the incinerator does go ahead Cllr Pile, who earnt over £30k from his HCC activities, will not have to face the worst of it as he lives on the airfield site (NW Hatfield).

Finally, while he did attend some of the Community Engagement Group meetings I have yet to meet any of the Hatfield residents who attended who thought he was representing our interests. Indeed, one prominent HAI campaigner actually asked him whether he was representing Hatfield or HCC.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 03, 2012, 01:04:09 pm
Gentle reminder that the process is still ongoing and the consultation on the Waste Sites Allocations closes on Monday, 19 March 2012.

The HAI leaflet giving details and a simplified response form can be found on the HAI blog site:

http://iloapp.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/blog/blog?ShowFile&doc=1329239019.doc (http://iloapp.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/blog/blog?ShowFile&doc=1329239019.doc)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on March 07, 2012, 07:20:27 pm
The Environment Agency has published details of its public consultation on Veolia's application for an Environmental Permit to operate "a recycling and energy recovery facility at New Barnfield".  The application also states, "This includes a clinical and healthcare waste transfer station".

See http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/consultations/137774.aspx (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/consultations/137774.aspx)

There is a link from this website to the consultation portal which can also be accessed directly via https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield (https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield)

Paper copies of the application can be viewed at Central Resources and Hatfield Libraries.

The public consultation will run from 7th March to 18th April and the EA will be holding two drop in sessions at Beales Hotel,
Comet Way, Hatfield, AL10 9NG on:

Wednesday 21st March 2012, 2pm-9pm

Thursday 22nd March 2012, 2pm-9pm

See also http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/waste/136929.aspx (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/waste/136929.aspx) for details of what the EA assesses and links to further information including "The permitting process".

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 08, 2012, 07:21:42 pm
"Government green lights Hatfield special needs school move
A SPECIAL needs school WILL be moved in order to build the Hatfield incinerator – after local government secretary Eric Pickles decided not to call in the plans...The council had been told last week not to grant planning permission for Southfield to move until Mr Pickles had studied the application himself..."

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/government_green_lights_hatfield_special_needs_school_move_1_1231621 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/government_green_lights_hatfield_special_needs_school_move_1_1231621)

I think we can forget about any government intervention and the only likelihood of stopping this now is a legal challenge - or an armed uprising.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on March 12, 2012, 07:55:14 pm

http://news.hertsdirect.org/Release.aspx?id=12389 (http://news.hertsdirect.org/Release.aspx?id=12389)

PR12389 Published Mon, 12 Mar 2012

Appeal lodged against recycling plant decision

Hertfordshire County Council has lodged an appeal against a High Court ruling over a metal and waste recycling plant in Hitchin.

The council launched the appeal after the decision by a planning inspector to allow the recycling plant to continue its operations was upheld by the High Court.

The recycling centre in Wallace Way is visited by a large number of HGVs every day and these are seen as having an adverse impact on local residents. (my italics)

Richard Thake, Cabinet Member for Environment said: “We are disappointed that our efforts to support residents' concerns over this recycling centre have been dealt a serious blow. We believe that this case represents an important principle in planning law.

“The consequence of the High Court judgement could affect how local planning authorities carry out their role in future, which is why we have decided to challenge the judgement.”

The appeal was lodged with the Court of Appeal on 2 March 2012 and if successful, could mean that the case would be reconsidered by the Planning Inspectorate.

ENDS

Further reading - http://www.thecomet.net/news/vow_to_continue_fighting_after_scrapyard_high_court_appeal_rejected_1_1195330 (http://www.thecomet.net/news/vow_to_continue_fighting_after_scrapyard_high_court_appeal_rejected_1_1195330)




Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on March 14, 2012, 10:36:18 am
Thought I'd let people know where we are:

Southfield school decision by HCC has been allowed to stand by the Department for Communities and Local Government. HAI and the New Barnfield Trust are currently considering, with legal advice, whether to initiate a Judicial Review.

Deadline for responding to the Waste Site Allocations consultation is 19th March. You can see the documents and there is a link to respond online at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/wsacons/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/wsacons/)
Alternatively, there is a basic response form you can print at http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#category2 (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#category2) second item down.

There is a consultation by the Environment Agency on the emissions permit, deadline 18th April. You can respond to this consultation and see some of the documents in the application for a permit at
https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield?pointId=1329236521365 (https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield?pointId=1329236521365)

The EA are also holding a 'drop-in' session at the Beales hotel in Hatfield, 2-9pm on Wednesday 21st March and Thursday 22nd March. HAI are intending to hold a 'gathering' at 7pm on Thursday 22nd March outside the hotel. Please come along if you would like to be involved.

The main planning application may be heard in either June or July by HCC, however we do not have a specific date for this yet and due to the almost 6000 objections HCC received and the clear local controversy, the DCLG may hold a public inquiry instead. We'll let you know if this happens and what you may be able to do to help.

All this stuff costs HAI and NBT money in both legal support and for informing people through leaflets and the like. If you can afford to donate to the campaign against the incinerator, please send cheques made out to 'New Barnfield (Action Fund) Trust' to 'New Barnfield Trust, C/O Rt Hon Grant Shapps, Maynard House, Hatfield, Herts'. Please be assured the funds will be used solely for the cross-party campaign against the incinerator and HAI will receive any necessary financial support from this to continue its activities as well as helping pay for legal support to stop this plan going ahead.

HAI and NBT are very grateful to all those who have contributed so far. Your support has been essential to our campaign and we could not have done all we have so far without your support.

Hope this is useful information,

Paul
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 18, 2012, 09:21:46 am
Gentle reminder that the process is still ongoing and the consultation on the Waste Sites Allocations closes on Monday, 19 March 2012.

The HAI leaflet giving details and a simplified response form can be found on the HAI blog site:

http://iloapp.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/blog/blog?ShowFile&doc=1329239019.doc (http://iloapp.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/blog/blog?ShowFile&doc=1329239019.doc)

Objections can be emailed to: spatialplanning@hertscc.gov.uk
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 21, 2012, 08:23:10 am
1.  Environment Agency public consultation drop-in sessions (14:00 - 21:00, 21 and 22 March 2012) demo

The Environment Agency (EA) is a key player in the incinerator saga as the government agency responsible for granting an licence for Veolia to operate an incinerator at New Barnfield.

They are holding a public consultation, part of which includes two drop-in sessions for the general public.

These will be held on this Wednesday (today) and Thursday (21 and 22 March 2012) from 14:00 (2 pm) - 21:00 (9 pm) at Beale's Hotel, Comet Way, Hatfield (opposite the Galleria).

HAI supporters are asked to attend these sessions and let the EA know your opposition to granting a licence due to the threat to the environment and human health.

Campaigners will be gathering in front of Beale's Hotel for a demonstration on Thursday, 22 March at 19:00 (7 pm).

Please attend if you can but please remember that we are opposed to the incinerator NOT the Environment Agency.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

2.  Environment Agency public consultation – closes Wednesday, 18 April 2012

HAI will be publishing ideas for responses to EA formal consultation on their website (details and links below) once supporters have had time to go through the documents.

Information can be found on the EA website (www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield)). Hard copy available at the Central Resources Library.

Objections can be sent by email to: psc@environment-agency.gov.uk

Or mail to: PSC-EP Team, Quadrant 2, 99 Parkway Avenue, Sheffield, S9 4WF.

Please quote the application reference number:
EPR / MP3637FL / A001

The EA wants your comments on 6 points:

1. Veolia's proposals to prevent or minimise emissions (including noise and odour) from the incinerator.

2. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to the environment.

3. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to human health.

4. Local factors – like local sensitive environmental features (high traffic volumes / emissions) – that Veolia have not considered in the permit application which you believe should be taken into account.

5. Veolia's proposals about the necessary measures that will be taken to prevent accidents and limit their consequences.

6. Any other factors you believe the Environment Agency should take into account before deciding whether or not to grant an operating licence,

-----------------------------------------------------------------

HAI needs volunteers and helpers further information can be found on HAI websites:

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)

Email: info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 21, 2012, 09:13:01 am
Hi trekbat,

If you use the 'LINK TO CALENDAR' tab in your post you can add those dates to the site's calendar. If you do a notification will pop up as the event approaches and again on the day. It's another good way of reminding people.

Just log in, go to your post, click on the "LINK TO CALENDAR" tab, fill in the details and dates (you may have to do it a number of times because there are multiple events in your post), then press save.  You will then see the events listed at the top of the thread.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 21, 2012, 02:07:46 pm
Hi David,

Thanks for that - will keep it mind for future activities.

Just heard that the Environment Agency session on Thursday has been cut short and will only be from 14:00 (2pm) to 16:00 (4pm).

As a result the planned demo for 19:00 (7pm) will NOT go ahead. However, people are still asked to go along and registered their opposition to granting an operating licence for an incinerator at New Barnfield.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on March 21, 2012, 09:31:05 pm
I have just returned from the Environment Agency drop in session and they have asked that it be made known that they WILL be there until 9pm tomorrow evening - please go and visit them-  Beales Hotel, opposite The Galleria.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 21, 2012, 10:58:07 pm
Apologies for the confusion.

Apparently the hotel heard about the planned demo and expressing concern for their guests asked the Environment Agency to close early on Thursday (ie. at 4 pm). Once the demo was called off the original times were reinstated.

I also attended the first session to clear up the confusion. The Environment Agency personnel I spoke to knew about the Raike's Lane study into a spike in infant mortality but apparently that is being conducted by DEFRA and has not yet started.

Also flicking through the monster tome that is Veolia's operating licence application there does not seem to be any consideration given to the environment that the incinerator will be operating in (ie. Hatfield has the A1M and several major roads and a large number of transport depots). Apparently an area has to be designated as some sort of at risk site (I forget the actual term used).

Still it is important for as many people to express their objections - given the complexity of the subject I'd suggest using the online or posting the application rather than trying to fill it in on the day. However, this could be used as a useful fact-finding exercise and show of support / concern.

I was surprised that a couple of campaigners who were at the session did not know that the University of Hertfordshire and the student body are NOT playing an active role in opposing HCC / Veolia's plans.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 22, 2012, 06:46:06 am
Thanks for that - will keep it mind for future activities.

Hi trekbat, you can add significant dates to the calendar after you have posted. Just go back to the thread, select the post that has important dates and then click on LINK TO CALENDAR and save.  It might be worth doing it with the posts containing meetings you want to draw attention to.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 22, 2012, 08:18:58 am
Hi David,

Ta - Tried to do that with Post #431 but I'm not seeing any 'Link to Calendar' tab (even went into 'Modify' mode). Ran the cursor over all the icons in the 'Post reply' as well.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 22, 2012, 09:20:44 am
Hi David,

Ta - Tried to do that with Post #431 but I'm not seeing any 'Link to Calendar' tab (even went into 'Modify' mode). Ran the cursor over all the icons in the 'Post reply' as well.

Strange. What you can do as an alternative is click on the calendar link at the top of the forum page and enter the event there.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 22, 2012, 11:12:43 am
The Environment Agency (EA) is a key player in the incinerator saga as the government agency responsible for granting an licence for Veolia to operate an incinerator at New Barnfield.

They are holding a public consultation, part of which includes two drop-in sessions for the general public.

These will be held on this Wednesday (today) and Thursday (21 and 22 March 2012) from 14:00 (2 pm) - 21:00 (9 pm) at Beale's Hotel, Comet Way, Hatfield (opposite the Galleria).

HAI supporters are asked to attend these sessions and let the EA know your opposition to granting a licence due to the threat to the environment and human health.

Further details can be found in Post #431 Hatfield incinerator thread
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 22, 2012, 11:15:41 am
Environment Agency public consultation – closes Wednesday, 18 April 2012

HAI will be publishing ideas for responses to EA formal consultation on their website (details and links below) once supporters have had time to go through the documents.

Information can be found on the EA website (www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield)). Hard copy available at the Central Resources Library.

Objections can be sent by email to: psc@environment-agency.gov.uk

Or mail to: PSC-EP Team, Quadrant 2, 99 Parkway Avenue, Sheffield, S9 4WF.

Please quote the application reference number:
EPR / MP3637FL / A001

The EA wants your comments on 6 points:

1. Veolia's proposals to prevent or minimise emissions (including noise and odour) from the incinerator.

2. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to the environment.

3. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to human health.

4. Local factors – like local sensitive environmental features (high traffic volumes / emissions) – that Veolia have not considered in the permit application which you believe should be taken into account.

5. Veolia's proposals about the necessary measures that will be taken to prevent accidents and limit their consequences.

6. Any other factors you believe the Environment Agency should take into account before deciding whether or not to grant an operating licence,

-----------------------------------------------------------------

HAI needs volunteers and helpers further information can be found on HAI websites:

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 22, 2012, 11:18:14 am
Done (apologies - it ain't pretty). It seems the trick is to post it as a calendar item first when drafting up the post.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 22, 2012, 02:23:42 pm
Done (apologies - it ain't pretty). It seems the trick is to post it as a calendar item first when drafting up the post.

Hi trekbat, well done. However they were posted in the wrong section so I have merged them with the original thread to keep all topics together. The easiest way is to link an existing post to the calendar. I can't figure out why you are not able to do this because others can. I will send you a personal message and see if I can log on as you and see what's wrong.  David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on March 22, 2012, 02:55:39 pm
Welwyn Hatfield Council's Planning Control Committee is meeting on Thursday 29 March 2012.  On the agenda is a report recommending objection be made to Herts County Council regarding the New Barnfield planning application.  The link to the 23 page report can be seen by following this link   http://coins.welhat.gov.uk/submissiondocuments.asp?submissionid=15096 (http://coins.welhat.gov.uk/submissiondocuments.asp?submissionid=15096)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on April 02, 2012, 12:09:12 pm
Just seen this tweet.


From the link...

Quote
Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council will be formally objecting to the current planning application for an incinerator at New Barnfield, following a report to the council's Planning Control Committee on Thursday 29 March.

Planning officers made a number of recommendations to councillors, for example, that further information should be sought on key environmental impacts.

However the officers' recommendation is that the council should object to the proposals on the following grounds:-

the size of the waste facility,
green belt policy,
impact on the landscape,
the effects of heavy goods vehicle movements and
the impact on the nearby Southfield School.
It was also felt that there are better sites elsewhere in the county, possibly for two or three smaller facilities which would deal with waste closer to its source.

Councillors particularly noted the scale of the proposed incinerator building, which would be a dome of about 40m (130 ft) maximum height, with two chimneys projecting to a height of 75m (246 ft) above ground level. They were also worried about the disruption to be caused to the school, which Hertfordshire County Council plans to relocate to a temporary site in Woods Avenue for several years whilst the incinerator is being built.

There are also concerns that the planning application is premature, since a government inspector's report into Hertfordshire's County Council's waste core strategy has yet to be published. The public examination of the strategy, which sets out the County Council's overall approach to dealing with the county's waste, took place last November. The inspector's report is expected in early April.

Two weeks ago, Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council's Cabinet Housing and Planning Panel considered a report on the County Council's draft waste site allocations document. This document includes New Barnfield as a potential site for a waste facility, along with other sites partly in the borough at Roehyde, Hatfield and Birchall Lane, east of Welwyn Garden City. Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council has submitted objections to the inclusion of all three sites, but it is New Barnfield which is being targeted by the County Council as the site for an incinerator.

At the meeting last Thursday, councillors also resolved to continue to seek intervention from the Secretary of State, Eric Pickles, in the event that the County Council decides to grant planning permission for the incinerator. The County Council's decision on the planning application is expected in June or July this year.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 02, 2012, 08:29:53 pm
Also in the WHT:

"WELWYN Hatfield Council has agreed to formally object to the planning application for the Hatfield
incinerator, when it is presented this summer."
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_will_oppose_incinerator_application_1_1338054 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn_hatfield_council_will_oppose_incinerator_application_1_1338054)

Although, I'm not sure why this is news as the other Conservative-controlled bodies (Hatfield Town Council and WHBC) and a Conservative body (The Hon. Grant Shapps MP) have been insisting that they are opposed to the incinerator proposed by Conservative-controlled Herts County Council.

Pity they can't sort it out among themselves and stop bothering the rest of us but experience shows they can't safely be left to their own devices (as they seem to be hell-bent on killing and / or bankrupting us).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 03, 2012, 02:07:34 pm
I wonder whether WHBC will also be lodging an objection at the Environment Agency operating licence consultation.

No operating licence = No incinerator!

However, given their past performance on the issue I shan't be holding my breath (probably will have to if it gets built, or use an air filter / gas mask).

Anyone else notice the decline in air quality that last week's hot weather caused. Personally, when I can see the air (photochemical smog) that I breath I start to worry.

Unfortunately, it seems the Enivronment Agency only considers emissions from the facility in isolation and does NOT take into overall air quality in the area.

Cough, choke, gasp, wheeeze.....splutter!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on April 03, 2012, 05:42:48 pm
At the Welwyn Hatfield Planning Control Committee meeting last Thursday I spoke on behalf of the North Mymms Parish Council, and Clive Bennett spoke on behalf of the NM Green Belt Soc.  We both encouraged WHBC to accept the officers' recommendation and object to this planning application.

There was quite a long debate by the committee members, including some adverse comments on the HCC Waste Management committee / department (can't quite remember which or if both).  The Chairman Cllr Stephen Boulton noted that this was the largest building in Welwyn Hatfield ever to be considered in all his many years on this committee.

I wonder whether WHBC will also be lodging an objection at the Environment Agency operating licence consultation.

North Mymms Parish Council has written to the Agency enclosing a copy of its objections to the planning application and asked for relevant matters to be taken into consideration when deciding on the permit application.    The chairman of the NM Green Belt Soc, Claire Taylor, went to the Agency's presentation and raised some pertinent (impertinent?) questions.

As to Trekbat's query yesterday, it seems that HCC is out of step with its fellow Conservatives.  As a reminder, Grant Shapps is the chairman of the New Barnfield Action Fund which brought together the various constituent groups to form a united opposition to the incinerator.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 04, 2012, 08:32:42 am
As to Trekbat's query yesterday, it seems that HCC is out of step with its fellow Conservatives.  As a reminder, Grant Shapps is the chairman of the New Barnfield Action Fund which brought together the various constituent groups to form a united opposition to the incinerator.


However, I have my doubts as to whether Grant Shapps is as committed to defeating Conservative-controlled Herts County Council's incinerator proposals as he claims to be (and to my knowledge it is the LibDems and Labour that have been leading the charge against the incinerator - flick back through WHBC and HTC newsletters to see how much information and guidance on the issue these Conservative-controlled councils have provided residents).

He is a high profile Conservative frontbencher yet I'm not aware of him ever making a statement against them in the House or on one of his numerous tv appearances (unlike his counterpart in St Albans when Raikes Lane was the other short-listed location).

He bussed in supporters from as far away as Letchworth canvassing for people's signatures in Hatfield for his 'Fairer Deal for Hatfield' (which later transpired to be anything but). Yet doesn't appear to have taken the same effort to drum up support for the various stages of planning permission for the incinerator.

Recently he and group of activists were canvassing in South Hatfield ostensibly to canvass for people to sign his Save New Barnfield petition. When I mentioned this to a leading member of HAI they were surprised and concerned. Firstly, they knew nothing of it. Secondly, if they had they could have helped distribute the Waste Site Allocation consultation leaflets. Finally, his actions could actually undermine the HAI campaign (which is following the various hoops and jumps necessary for a later legal challenge) by distracting people from filling in the Waste Sites Allocation objection.

The latest stage in the process is the Environment Agency operating licence consultation yet there is no mention of it on his petition site:
http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/)

Also, I understand he lives in BP - so how come it's been people like me that have had to post information on this and other forums to keep people aware of what is going on?

Incidentally, I believe the incinerator to be symptomatic of a much deeper problem affecting Hatfield following its administrative tie up in the 1970s. I've posted my reasons for believing this on Grant Shapps's site.
http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,8366.0.html (http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,8366.0.html)

I also happen to think that WGC-biased WHBC were initially happy for the incinerator to go into Hatfield - they'd get to swipe the Central Resources Library (originally it was planned to move it lock, stock and barrel into a purpose-built £7m facility); it drives more families out of Hatfield (turning the place into a student, migrant workers and social needs cases squat - basically people who aren't going to oppose their plans to milk the town); and they would have got around several million pounds in Section 106 (basically a legalised sweetener from Veolia) money to fund the Hatfield town redevelopment (which basically builds more housing for the same rather than a vibrant town centre). Subsequently only they realised literally which way the wind was blowing ie. often over them, and that people outside of Hatfield were also outraged by their proposals.

Finally a reminder about the EA consultation:
2.  Environment Agency public consultation – closes Wednesday, 18 April 2012

HAI will be publishing ideas for responses to EA formal consultation on their website (details and links below) once supporters have had time to go through the documents.

Information can be found on the EA website (www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield)). Hard copy available at the Central Resources Library.

Objections can be sent by email to: psc@environment-agency.gov.uk

Or mail to: PSC-EP Team, Quadrant 2, 99 Parkway Avenue, Sheffield, S9 4WF.

Please quote the application reference number:
EPR / MP3637FL / A001

The EA wants your comments on 6 points:

1. Veolia's proposals to prevent or minimise emissions (including noise and odour) from the incinerator.

2. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to the environment.

3. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to human health.

4. Local factors – like local sensitive environmental features (high traffic volumes / emissions) – that Veolia have not considered in the permit application which you believe should be taken into account.

5. Veolia's proposals about the necessary measures that will be taken to prevent accidents and limit their consequences.

6. Any other factors you believe the Environment Agency should take into account before deciding whether or not to grant an operating licence.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on April 04, 2012, 03:31:07 pm
I have my doubts as to whether Grant Shapps is as committed to defeating Conservative-controlled Herts County Council's incinerator proposals as he claims to be

Each to his/her own opinion.  But today I heard that he has given the go-ahead for the New Barnfield Action Fund Trust (Chairman Grant Shapps) to call for a Judicial Review on the Planning Permission given for the move of the Special Needs School.  As I understand it, the case will be put that this should have been considered with the Planning Application for the Incinerator and not in isolation.

This Action Fund Trust  has been advised that if it does not call for this Judicial Review now, it could jeopardise any future need to call for a Judicial Review of the Incinerator Planning Application.

Just as a reminder, the 'Hatfield Against Incineration' group is opposed to incineration anywhere.  HAI is a member of the New Barnfield Action Fund Trust which is only opposed to the siting of an incinerator at New Barnfield.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 05, 2012, 10:56:43 am
HCC Rip Up Playing Field To Relocate School
http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_news/9633517.Incinerator__HCC_Rip_Up_Playing_Field_To_Relocate_School/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_news/9633517.Incinerator__HCC_Rip_Up_Playing_Field_To_Relocate_School/)


As this is allegedly a temporary move and they are supposed to have the buildings to reuse elsewhere it's not clear why they feel the need to conduct an archaelogical investigation - unless they want to clear the way for a permanent move.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 07, 2012, 11:05:16 am
Message from HAI:

Environment Agency public consultation – closing date extended from Wednesday, 18 April to 25 April 2012


Environment Agency public consultation – closing Wednesday, 18 April 2012

HAI will be publishing ideas for responses to EA formal consultation on their website (details and links below) once supporters have had time to go through the documents.

Information can be found on the EA website (www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield)). Hard copy available at the Central Resources Library.

Objections can be sent by email to: psc@environment-agency.gov.uk

Or mail to: PSC-EP Team, Quadrant 2, 99 Parkway Avenue, Sheffield, S9 4WF.

Please quote the application reference number:
EPR / MP3637FL / A001

The EA wants your comments on 6 points:

1. Veolia's proposals to prevent or minimise emissions (including noise and odour) from the incinerator.

2. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to the environment.

3. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to human health.

4. Local factors – like local sensitive environmental features (high traffic volumes / emissions) – that Veolia have not considered in the permit application which you believe should be taken into account.

5. Veolia's proposals about the necessary measures that will be taken to prevent accidents and limit their consequences.

6. Any other factors you believe the Environment Agency should take into account before deciding whether or not to grant an operating licence,

-----------------------------------------------------------------

HAI needs volunteers and helpers further information can be found on HAI websites:

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 10, 2012, 09:55:34 am
A very interesting article on incineration in the Private Eye, No. 1311, 6-19 April 2012, p30 (thanks to the person who PM'ed me about it):

It mentioned:

1.That The Commons Environment Audiot Committee stated in a 2009-10 report that "The costs and health impact of fine particle, PM 2.5, air pollution is almost twice that of obesity and physical inactivity" (ie. obesity estimated to cost the NHS £10.7 billion a year, while PM 2.5 pollution cost £20.2 billion).

2. A possible reason for the high number of incinerators being built in Britain is because of the large number of government advisors involved in the financially inefficient PFI-funding.

3. It casts doubt over the regulation and monitoring of these facilities and cites evidence from a whistleblower as to how companies are able to flout / get round checks.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 11, 2012, 09:53:56 am
Full Private Eye article published on this site:

http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?id=7049#newspost (http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?id=7049#newspost)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on April 12, 2012, 11:36:43 am
The New Barnfield Action Trust is chaired by our MP and has cross-party support and support from organisations including Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, Hatfield Town Council and North Mymms Green Belt Society.  It has now launched a Judicial Review against the decision to grant planning permission to move Southfield School to another location on a temporary basis.

Pity that Grant Shapps' boss Eric Pickles, decided not to get involved with this decision but never mind.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 20, 2012, 10:13:04 am
Reminder: closing date 25 April 2012

[David, getting a 'Stop running this script?' pop up window when using the quote or reply buttons]

Message from HAI:

Environment Agency public consultation – closing date extended from Wednesday, 18 April to 25 April 2012


Environment Agency public consultation – closing Wednesday, 18 April 2012

HAI will be publishing ideas for responses to EA formal consultation on their website (details and links below) once supporters have had time to go through the documents.

Information can be found on the EA website (www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/newbarnfield)). Hard copy available at the Central Resources Library.

Objections can be sent by email to: psc@environment-agency.gov.uk

Or mail to: PSC-EP Team, Quadrant 2, 99 Parkway Avenue, Sheffield, S9 4WF.

Please quote the application reference number:
EPR / MP3637FL / A001

The EA wants your comments on 6 points:

1. Veolia's proposals to prevent or minimise emissions (including noise and odour) from the incinerator.

2. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to the environment.

3. Veolia's proposals that the activity will not cause harm to human health.

4. Local factors – like local sensitive environmental features (high traffic volumes / emissions) – that Veolia have not considered in the permit application which you believe should be taken into account.

5. Veolia's proposals about the necessary measures that will be taken to prevent accidents and limit their consequences.

6. Any other factors you believe the Environment Agency should take into account before deciding whether or not to grant an operating licence,

-----------------------------------------------------------------

HAI needs volunteers and helpers further information can be found on HAI websites:

http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 24, 2012, 06:30:26 pm
Environment Agency consultation closes tomorrow.

Hatfield received front page coverage in The Times (although it rather gives the impression that WHBC is leading the charge - which it isn't) on Easter Monday.

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Jean Hockings on April 25, 2012, 06:45:12 pm
Following the article in The Times and subsequent comment by Ross Clark on April 10, you can read the flurry of letters it provoked  here (http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/BalancedOpinion/replies.jpg)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 05, 2012, 11:12:38 am
There are rumours that Veolia will be flying a 'blimp' again following planning objections lodged by Gascoyne Estates (Hatfield House management), who have also called in English Heritage.

If anyone sees it please post the news as people are waiting to fan out and take some photos of it.

Incidentally, the Hatfield House and English Heritage objections highlight the fact that Veolia's visual impact contractor although given free access (apart from the private apartments) to the House and garden only considered it appropriate to take a pictures at ground level (and in one case from behind a wall and closed gate).

Encouragingly, it transpires that the House AND Park are Grade I listed - and the park has several ancient Oak tree specimens which are likely to be more sensitive to pollution levels (than apparently humans).

Still we're going to need to come up with a waste solution as landfill costs are increasing - so while it helps the case against an incinerator, taxpayers are still going to have to foot the bill to clear up this mess.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on May 05, 2012, 10:39:48 pm
There are rumours that Veolia will be flying a 'blimp' again following planning objections lodged by Gascoyne Estates (Hatfield House management), who have also called in English Heritage.

If anyone sees it please post the news as people are waiting to fan out and take some photos of it.

Incidentally, the Hatfield House and English Heritage objections highlight the fact that Veolia's visual impact contractor although given free access (apart from the private apartments) to the House and garden only considered it appropriate to take a pictures at ground level (and in one case from behind a wall and closed gate).

Encouragingly, it transpires that the House AND Park are Grade I listed - and the park has several ancient Oak tree specimens which are likely to be more sensitive to pollution levels (than apparently humans).

Still we're going to need to come up with a waste solution as landfill costs are increasing - so while it helps the case against an incinerator, taxpayers are still going to have to foot the bill to clear up this mess.

Any idea when it's going up Trekbat? I won't be able to miss it, unfortunately, so will post if I see it in the very near future.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 08, 2012, 10:17:58 am
'Fraid not - I only received the info third (at least) hand. Chances are probably on the next clear day - provided it's not too windy.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 17, 2012, 05:43:58 pm
No news about the blimp.

However, there is an interesting item on BBC Online:

Councils 'must lower carbon emissions'- 17 May 2012
"Local authorities across the UK should have a statutory duty to combat climate change, government advisors recommend"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18093080 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18093080)

If passed into law HCC and the others will have to act to cut Carbon emissions - like those coming from incinerators.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on May 17, 2012, 11:42:32 pm
No news about the blimp.

However, there is an interesting item on BBC Online:

Councils 'must lower carbon emissions'- 17 May 2012
"Local authorities across the UK should have a statutory duty to combat climate change, government advisors recommend"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18093080 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18093080)

If passed into law HCC and the others will have to act to cut Carbon emissions - like those coming from incinerators.

Maybe the carbon emissions will be counterbalanced by a reduction in individuals producing carbon when they start dropping dead with lung cancers and God-knows what else this hideous thing will cause!!!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 21, 2012, 11:23:27 am
Work has begun on a £185m waste incinerator in Suffolk

"Private company Sita says the facility at Great Blakenham will burn 269,000 tonnes of rubbish annually and generate enough electricity for 30,000 homes."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-18115819 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-18115819)

Poses the moot (and potentially expensive for Herts taxpayers) question will there be enough rubbish to fuel all the incinerators and other facilities being built?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on May 21, 2012, 03:29:42 pm
No news about the blimp.

It may be flown on Thursday or Friday this week (24/25 May), apparently.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 22, 2012, 03:05:14 pm
Thanks for the tip off. Message from HAI below:

URGENT UPDATE ON CAMPAIGN AGAINST INCINERATOR

1. THE BLIMP.
The blimp, indicating the height of the incinerator, is likely to be flying from New Barnfield on Thursday, 24 May, or possibly on Friday, 25 or Monday, 28.

75m blimp indicates flue height, and pennant at 42m indicates dome height.

Please take cameras out with you on those days, and take photos of it from your home and other places you visit.

It is likely to be visible throughout Hatfield and Welham Green and beyond.

Please let us know where you can see it from.

We are particularly interested in what the incinerator would look like from:

- Southfield School and other schools

- historic places – Hatfield House and its park to the south, North Mymms Park, Folly Arch (Veolia have not yet provided montages from these places)

- Also important are the views from homes and gardens, and from recreation areas including footpaths

- Views from a greater distance are also very important (e.g. Verulamium, Brocket Hall)


Veolia will be taking photographs to create more photo-montages to submit as an addition to their planning application.


2. MEETING OF HCC OVERVIEW AND SCRUTINY COMMITTEE - THURSDAY, 24 MAY (10 am)
THE FINANCE OF THE INCINERATOR PROPOSAL IS ON AGENDA

THIS MEETING IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC (to listen, not to speak)

Some members of HAI will attend this meeting, and supporters may wish to join us.

10 a.m. Ashbourne Room , County Hall, Hertford.

Herts Without Waste, (an organisation working closely with HAI) has asked the Overview and Scrutiny Committee to look at a number of financial issues connected with the proposal to build an incinerator at New Barnfield.

The committee will decide at the meeting whether they want to add these items to their future work programme of scrutiny.

The Key Issues that could be added to the Scrutiny programme are:

1. Investigation of why the Council is effectively paying an extra £7m up front via other budgets;

2. Costing the option of cancelling the PFI and instead pursuing a "prudential borrowing" route, as Buckinghamshire has done;

3. Calculating the financial liability (in relation to the PFI contract) should the Council be unable to supply sufficient incinerator feedstock;

4. Calculating the financial liability for the Council should the Government follow through on its commitment to correct the market failure by introducing an incineration tax, using sensitivity analysis to consider a range of possible tax options, e.g. at £40 per tonne;

5. Clarifying the liability to the Council should residual waste composition change (if there is a composition element specified in the contract);

6. Exploring the financial implications to the Council of higher than anticipated recycling rates being achieved; and

7. Checking whether compensation has been included to the Housing & Communities Agency as the Covenant holder.


3. COMMUNITY PICNIC AT BUNCHLEYS POND – SUNDAY, 27 MAY  (13:00 – 16:00)
Welwyn Hatfield Friends of the Earth are holding a community picnic at Bunchleys Pond,
1 p.m - 4 p.m. Please bring a picnic, a blanket, yourself, friends and family. There will be a plant sale and raffle and an opportunity to donate to Hatfield Against Incineration.

Further details from welwynhatfieldfoe@gmail.com

(Bunchleys Pond is immediately adjacent to the site of the proposed incinerator. It is a local beauty spot and fishing pond. From the pond there are attractive walks, especially the Nature-Walk towards Welham Green.

To reach the pond, from the South Way/Travellers Lane roundabout (with the curly bridge) in South Hatfield, start to walk towards Southfield School and the New Barnfield Central Resources Library. After just a few yards, turn right through the open gate (near a doggy-do bin!) and follow the all-weather footpath until you come to the pond.)


See also the updates on our website,
about the progress of Veolia's Planning Application and of the Herts Waste Strategy.
www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 24, 2012, 10:19:41 am
No sign of the blimp so far - Local press also reports tomorrow (Friday) as being the probable date of the 'flight'.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on May 25, 2012, 01:28:47 am
No sign of the blimp so far - Local press also reports tomorrow (Friday) as being the probable date of the 'flight'.

Ugh! I look forward to that then, felt decidedly depressed last time it was up. Nevertheless, I shall get out with my camera and get some piccies from different locations if possible  :-\
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 25, 2012, 09:12:32 am
Thanks, EvieMay.

The Blimp is on the ground now at New Barnfield being readied for its flight.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Colin Goff on May 25, 2012, 04:30:07 pm
The Blimp has been up since about 10:00am.
I've some photo's taken from the NM Cricket Club. From the pavilion as you look out across the square, there rising above the trees is the beast.
Col.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on May 25, 2012, 04:52:41 pm
I went up to the Folly Arch but couldn't see it at all from there or further along towards the RVC farm buildings. I noticed someone out taking photos already from Station Road so didn't stop there.  Will pop out again later to get one from Southfield School.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on May 25, 2012, 05:27:58 pm
At Folly Arch the blimp is just visible looking through the arch and is just above the trees.  I took a couple of photos but the blimp did not come out. The marker was hidden by the trees.

I could not see the blimp from the Dutch Nursery car park.

The attached photos are at New Barnfield car park, where the marker is visible between the blimp and the lamp post, and the Cemetery.  The marker is just visible from certain locations in the cemetery.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 26, 2012, 10:27:59 am
Thanks to everyone who took part.

Yesterday's exercise revealed that the visual blight will be worse than revealed in the previous 'blimp' exercise - even though that was flown higher and used two pennants to denote the top of the dome and a possible 100m stack (since reduced to 75m).

It is possible to see the existing chimney on the site from the playing fields on Briars Lane (and the dome and stack will naturally also be visible) - and surrounding properties.

There will be a significant visual impact for rail users - the blimp was visible (and in some cases the pennant) from the train, both overhead line crossings at Hatfield, both platforms at Welham Green, and the road bridge crossing the lines there.

The visual impact on Hatfield House is not known - although the blimp and pennant were visible from the high ground of the Rare Breeds Farm that borders it.

All of which is good news for us and bad news for Veolia.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on May 26, 2012, 12:02:13 pm
Where should we send our photos, Trekbat?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Colin Goff on May 26, 2012, 07:18:05 pm
Send your photo's to:
 cathy@catherineroe.orangehome.co.uk

Col.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on May 27, 2012, 03:14:32 pm
The Welwyn Hatfield Times were also requesting photos.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 27, 2012, 09:45:49 pm
Thanks for answering EvieMay's original question, Colin.

With regard to the press photos I know that Cathy is looking at that (having some trouble with email returns due to the large file sizes).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on May 29, 2012, 07:06:45 pm
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_blimp_pictures_1_1391458 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_blimp_pictures_1_1391458)

Disturbing and worrying pictures of the blimp in the WHT taken from several locations
including Brookmans Park railway station, Potterells Medical Centre, Folly Arch and Welham
Green .  I am absolutely amazed at the size and scale and how it would absolutely visually dominate and blight the entire surrounding area.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 30, 2012, 10:53:28 am
There are some images also on the HAI blog site:

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on May 30, 2012, 02:50:53 pm
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_blimp_pictures_1_1391458 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hatfield_incinerator_blimp_pictures_1_1391458)

Disturbing and worrying pictures of the blimp in the WHT taken from several locations
including Brookmans Park railway station, Potterells Medical Centre, Folly Arch and Welham
Green .  I am absolutely amazed at the size and scale and how it would absolutely visually dominate and blight the entire surrounding area.

Here is the accompanying article

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/your_pictures_of_hatfield_incinerator_blimp_1_1391459 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/your_pictures_of_hatfield_incinerator_blimp_1_1391459)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on May 30, 2012, 06:31:04 pm
Some new information appeared on the planning application website today - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724) – including 12 photomontages.  These are all large files.  If you are not able to download them copies are available at the Central Resources Library along with all the planning documents.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on May 30, 2012, 10:40:31 pm
Are you sure that link is correct? Clicking on it for some reasons gives an error message involving beans!  :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 31, 2012, 12:42:42 am
Another view of the Blimp from Briars Lane - in front of the playing ground and pavilion entrance.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 31, 2012, 12:45:59 am
Oh good - it worked. Here's another.

The existing chimney on the New Barnfield site is visible from the far side of the Briars Lane playing field, which suggests the incinerator will also be visible after the leaves fall in the autumn. It's also visible from both platforms at Welham Green (southbound / London platform view shown here).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 31, 2012, 12:54:02 am
Blimp was visible from both the footbridges across the tracks at and next to Hatfield railway station.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on May 31, 2012, 09:29:49 am
Great photographs Trekbat! 

Are you sure that link is correct? Clicking on it for some reasons gives an error message involving beans!  :icon_scratch:

This is the link, cut and pasted from the webpage - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724)

If there are still problems, go on to the main planning page for the application - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724) and click on Documents half way down the page on the right hand side. 

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on May 31, 2012, 10:56:34 am
Whilst I do not want an incinerator I wonder whether the visual impact is any worse than, perhaps, the transmiiting masts at Bell Bar ? These are considerably taller than the stack at the proposed incinerator.

I wonder if there were any objections in the 1920s (or whenever they were erected) to them ?

Not wishing to detract in any way from the campaign against the incinerator but I think the real issue is the health risk / loss of greenbelt / disruption to school / traffic increase.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on May 31, 2012, 11:02:09 am
Are you sure that link is correct? Clicking on it for some reasons gives an error message involving beans!  :icon_scratch:

This is the link, cut and pasted from the webpage - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724)

If there are still problems, go on to the main planning page for the application - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724) and click on Documents half way down the page on the right hand side.

Thanks, the second link sorted it out.

Whilst I do not want an incinerator I wonder whether the visual impact is any worse than, perhaps, the transmiiting masts at Bell Bar ? These are considerably taller than the stack at the proposed incinerator.

I wonder if there were any objections in the 1920s (or whenever they were erected) to them ?

Not wishing to detract in any way from the campaign against the incinerator but I think the real issue is the health risk / loss of greenbelt / disruption to school / traffic increase.

The broadcasting towers have become a local landmark and have a lot of history.

The issues in the campaign, don't forget, also include wildlife\environmental issues and waste issues as well
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on May 31, 2012, 03:52:28 pm
Great photographs Trekbat! 

Are you sure that link is correct? Clicking on it for some reasons gives an error message involving beans!  :icon_scratch:

This is the link, cut and pasted from the webpage - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/tabPage3.jsp?aplId=20724)


If there are still problems, go on to the main planning page for the application - https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724) and click on Documents half way down the page on the right hand side.

Thank you.

I also encountered the mysterious cyber beans (but do not seem to have suffered any lasting damage - but the jury is out on that one).

Looked at the first few 'winter' images and started wondering whether there wasn't some law against including potentially misleading images in a planning application (and if there isn't there should be one) - because curiously none of the images I looked at showed the plume visible which it will be in cold weather.

Certainly, the Edmonton incinerator plume was clearly visible in cold conditions, as you can see for yourself:

http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/n18incinpix.html (http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/n18incinpix.html)

I'd say Visual Impact was important in that it will help galvanise some people to action once they realise the impact that it will have on the largest single investment they made in their lives - their house.

Clearly, property prices in Welham Green are likely to take the biggest hit.


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 04, 2012, 05:25:27 pm
Further views and a new call to respond to Veolia's additional information has been posted on the Hatfield Against Incineration blog site.

Deadline to respond: by Friday, 29 June 2012
http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)

And before I get accused of being a killjoy here's a couple of things to lighten the mood before you set down to telling Veolia and HCC where to get off (please note: these are just snippets to whet your appetite - the links will take you to the full items where you can gorge yourself to your heart's content / digest them at leisure):

UNIVERSITIES OFFER NEW “BACHELOR OF WHATEVER” DEGREE - May 7, 2012
"Sensitive to claims they no longer prepare students for the real world, universities across the country today unveiled a new type of degree – the Bachelor of Whatever (B.W.), where students select their own courses, track their own progress, test and grade themselves, graduate Magna Cum Laude, and whatever it doesn’t matter there aren’t any jobs..."
http://www.satirewire.com/content1/?p=4225 (http://www.satirewire.com/content1/?p=4225)


FORMER CANNIBALS LONGING FOR COMFORT FOOD - May 5, 2009
"...In the meantime, police said they will continue their investigations, and are now targeting citizens with unusually cheerful dispositions. Mala explained: “Most Kubaluvans are sad right now, which is normal, but it is the cheerful ones we suspect have lapsed. Why? Because there is an old saying on Kubaluva: ‘People – people who eat people – are the happiest people in the world.’”
http://www.satirewire.com/content1/?p=898 (http://www.satirewire.com/content1/?p=898)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 11, 2012, 02:30:25 pm
Message from HAI:

HAVE YOUR SAY ON NEW INCINERATOR INFORMATION

Herts County Council is now inviting submissions to another Public Consultation concerning Veolia’s Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield.

The latest consultation is on the further information now revealed by Veolia’s consultants about their incinerator plans.

The information includes some new photo-montages, including one which shows the huge dome and flues next to Southfield School for children with special needs, and one of the view of the incinerator from the green at Welham Green.

The information also includes details of how the noise levels at the school, inside and out, would increase.

There are also new figures for traffic increases, which between 11 a.m. and noon would increase massively on South Way, Travellers Lane and the access road which goes past Southfield School to the New Barnfield site.

However, residents are still waiting for essential photo-montages from heritage sites including Hatfield House and Folly Arch. Also, having seen the test “blimp” (balloon) so prominently in so many places on May 25th, residents are asking for more montages.

The new information can be seen at Hatfield libraries, council offices and library in Welwyn Garden City, at County Hall, and on-line on hertsdirect.org.

Comments on the new material should be sent by June 29th to New Barnfield Planning at County Hall, Hertford, by post, or email to newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk.

Paul Zukowskyj of Hatfield Against Incineration said, “The new material gives added weight to the 6000 objections that were made in the Planning Consultation in January. There is no new information that counters any of the objections, and the revised Alternative Sites Assessment is as flawed and inaccurate as the previous one. We ask residents to say this in their responses to the new Consultation.

More detail will be on our website www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 18, 2012, 03:07:56 pm
Deadline for responses to Veolia's latest blimp exercise and additional visual impact images is drawing nearer ie. 29 June 2012

Meanwhile, a recycling trial in Scotland may get up people's noses but if successful could result in a significant reduction in waste sent to landfill:

"Used nappies will be turned into garden furniture, roof tiles and railway sleepers under a new recycling scheme being trialled in Scotland. Each year some 160 million nappies are sent to Scottish rubbish dumps. But four councils are to trial a kerbside collection scheme for 36,000 homes across Fife, Stirling, Perth and Kinross and North Lanarkshire. The pilot will run for an initial six months to establish whether it can be rolled out nationwide in the future. As well as disposable nappies, incontinence products and other related items - like wet wipes, nappy sacks and cotton wool - will also be suitable for the recycling collection." - 14 June 2012 Last updated at 12:05
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18441101 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18441101)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on June 18, 2012, 10:00:39 pm
The project in Scotland may be using similar technology to this company - http://orlrecycling.com/productsandservices.php (http://orlrecycling.com/productsandservices.php)

The Environment Agency has requested further information from Veolia for the permit application.  To view, click on "Schedule 5 notice.pdf" on the consultation website at https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield (https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 24, 2012, 11:49:13 am
Less than a week left for responses to Veolia's latest blimp exercise and additional visual impact images - deadline 29 June 2012

A Scottish scheme copying a Welsh one shows fairly simple changes to the way people conduct their business and live their lives can have a dramatic effect on the waste mountain (and the amount of fuel available to run all the incinerators that have already been commissioned nationwide):

Plans for 5p plastic bag charge in Scotland - 24 June 2012 Last updated at 00:12
"Shoppers would need to pay a minimum of 5p for a plastic carrier bag under proposals being put out to consultation by the Scottish government. The charge is among a range of suggestions aimed at cutting litter and protecting the environment. The plans are similar to the system brought in by the Welsh government in October. Early results from Wales show reductions in carrier bag use of up to 90% in some supermarket chains."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18563395 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18563395)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 28, 2012, 09:50:03 am
Last call for objections - deadline tomorrow

Images from the latest blimp exercise can be seen at the Central Resources Library.

They show that the view from the Old Bishop's Palace will be the most affected. Lesser so from Hatfield House and grounds. However, it is worth remembering that these have been taken when the trees are in leaf. Also, having seen their earlier photos from Welham Green it's clear that you can move a few feet so that the blimp can't be seen.

Anyone who hasn't already submitted an objection (and still intends to do so) may want to point out the potential threat from incinerator emissions to the latest addition to Hatfield Park - the newly planted Jubilee Wood (incl. a tree planted by HM Queen Elizabeth II). As it seems that historically significant trees are more important than threats to human health in planning terms.


Europe refuses UK air pollution repriev - 27 June 2012 Last updated at 19:51
"Government plans to delay air pollution improvements in 12 UK areas have been refused by the European Commission, which says air quality must improve. The UK may now face fines if it fails to improve air quality quickly. Air pollution reduces average life expectancy in the UK by up to eight months, according to the government's own statistics...Air pollution is recognised by the government as the second-biggest public health threat, after smoking. It costs the UK an estimated £20bn a year - that's more than twice the amount estimated for obesity, which gets far more publicity...NO2 pollution affects long-term health. Experts giving evidence to the Environment Committee, EFRA, said the health of Olympic athletes visiting over the summer should not be
harmed as long as the UK avoids a heat-induced smog episode."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18617815 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18617815)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on June 28, 2012, 09:00:11 pm
King’s Lynn incinerator decision is put on hold by Eric Pickles -

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/breaking_news_king_s_lynn_incinerator_decision_is_put_on_hold_by_eric_pickles_1_1425278 (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/breaking_news_king_s_lynn_incinerator_decision_is_put_on_hold_by_eric_pickles_1_1425278)

If you wish to read Norfolk County Council Planning Officer’s Report it is available at

http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/view/planreg290612item5apdf (http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/view/planreg290612item5apdf)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 30, 2012, 07:01:51 am
King's Lynn incinerator: Plans approved by Norfolk County Council - 29 June 2012 Last updated at 20:06
"A controversial £500m waste incinerator in Norfolk has been given the go-ahead by Norfolk county councillors. Protesters gathered outside County Hall in Norwich ahead of the meeting at which the plant, in Saddlebow, King's Lynn, was granted planning permission. The incinerator will not be built until it has received the backing of Communities Secretary Eric Pickles. He put a holding notice on the plan on Thursday amid objections by MPs and King's Lynn council...As of last month Mr Pickles had received nearly 4,000 letters urging him to review the planning process, his office said."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-18640897 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-18640897)


King's Lynn incinerator: Alternative technology considered - 14 June 2012 Last updated at 21:35
"Plans to use new black bin waste disposal technology that could offer an alternative to an incinerator in west Norfolk are to go before officials...The borough council has been in talks with Material Works, a consortium that can process waste materials which currently goes to landfill. The waste is processed into granules of an inert plastic-like substance which can be turned into products including fence panels, pallets and tiles. Mr Daubney said: "Technology regarding waste is moving at a very fast pace. "That's why it's important we don't make high cost, long-term commitments with out-dated technology and embrace new opportunities. "As a local authority I believe we are the first people to have a go at this"...Material Works have said their recycling process would cost taxpayers almost half that of disposing waste to landfill and had the potential to create 300 jobs. "The cost per tonne of landfill currently stands at £92, whereas our process is just £55, which will bring savings of over £1.3m per year to council tax payers in the borough," said a spokesman"."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-18449902 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-18449902)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on June 30, 2012, 03:09:33 pm
In a possible attempt to clear the way for their incinerator by boring everyone to death by a dastardly trial of extended planning application, Veolia have submitted a further three photomontages showing the visual impact of their proposed New Barnfield incinerator on heritage sites - Hatfield House and its Park, Gobions Folly Arch at Little Heath, North Mymms House and Park, and Brocket Hall and its Park.

Not too surprising (Y-a-w-n!), like their previous images, show the trees in leaf and no cold-weather or chemical-reaction plume factored in (which can become visible in warm temperatures depending on the chemical composition of the fuel being burnt) and with the notable exception of the view from the Old Palace adjoining Hatfield House show little or no visual impact.

There will be a further consultation on these new images lasting till Monday, 23 July 2012.

Residents and interested organisations can respond to this new information
By post: New Barnfield Planning, County Hall, Pegs Lane, HERTFORD, SG13 8DN
By email: newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk

Further details and information on the HAI blog site: http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)

In separate developments, Cllr Robert Gordon, the leader of Hertfordshire County Council - which signed a contract with Veolia to build an incinerator BEFORE finalising their own Waste Strategy - will not be hung-drawn-and-quartered (no, not even locked in the stocks and pelted with rotten incinerator fuel). Instead he will be receiving a CBE (I suspect, if put to a public vote, that would be a Completely Bad Egg, but it's not so it isn't).
http://www.aboutmyarea.co.uk/Hertfordshire/Knebworth/SG3/News/Local-News/224943-Hertfordshire-County-Council-Leader-Appointed-CBE (http://www.aboutmyarea.co.uk/Hertfordshire/Knebworth/SG3/News/Local-News/224943-Hertfordshire-County-Council-Leader-Appointed-CBE)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on June 30, 2012, 08:43:57 pm
The impact of the incinerator in lots of the images is actually pretty profound.

As I'm involved in HAi, they've sent me the lot in hardcopy. What they only point out in small script at the bottom of each of them is that you're supposed to view them from 15-18cm when printed at A2.

For those of you unaware, A2 is 23.4x16.5 inches, so massive, and 15-18 cm is 6-7 inches. To get the right impression of these, put one end of a six inch ruler on the paper and the other on the side of your nose. Your eyes are then the right distance from the massive sheet.

You do that and the scale and impact of the incinerator is correct. It's massive. Dominating. Intimidating.

The view from Folly Arch is wrecked. The view from the old palace in Hatfield is of a massive, belching, industrial plant.

I cannot honestly see how English Heritage can fail to continue to object since this plant destroys the landscape setting of at least two, if not more, unique heritage assets.

Just appalling. I hope everyone reading this forum objects again to the incinerator on the basis of this new information, since they have the chance.

Paul Zukowskyj
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 01, 2012, 11:51:56 am
My bad (to use the modern vernacular). Apologies but Paul is right that the view from Gobions Arch is also impaired (but being further away not as badly as the Bishop's Palace).

Actually, there are two sets of images available to view at the Central Resources Library (in addition to the two which related to the consultation that closed on 29 June). The Barton Wilmore set does, in my opinion, play down the visual impact. The DesignHive set of images is more revealing.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 02, 2012, 06:41:57 pm
Found it quite interesting (and moving) that a homeless person writing a poem in the Big Issue  (http://www.bigissue.org.uk/) this week should list incinerators as one of ten areas of concern alongside cancer, homelessness, obesity, banking, suicide bombing, getting old, being young and addiction.  Clearly, with all that Richard Penny has going on in his life "The incinerator bellowing invisible smoke, and death" is, for him, a Big Issue.  (Note: Screen grab reproduced with the permission of The Big Issue)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 04, 2012, 09:00:39 am
Is this really the time for Herts Co Co to be dealing with a company that is selling off its UK water businesses to clear debt and with, it's claimed, an accounting fraud having plunged the company into the red.  From the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18621952 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18621952)

Quote
Veolia sells UK water business for £1.2bn
French water and waste group Veolia Environnement has sold three UK water businesses for £1.24bn ($1.92bn; 1.5bn euros) in a bid to cut its debts.
Rift Acquisitions, a fund managed by Morgan Stanley and Prudential's M&G, will buy Veolia Water's central, southeast and east businesses.
Veolia shares opened up 2.4% in Paris on news of the sale.
Veolia Water serves more than 3.5 million people in the south of the UK, and employs about 1,250 people.
The group will retain a 10% stake in Veolia Water as well its Veolia Water Outsourcing business which provides services to other UK water providers.
Fraud scandal
The company is committed to selling 5bn euros of assets by 2013 as part of a programme to restore profits.
Last year the group unearthed a 90m-euro ($111.7m) accounting fraud at a subsidiary in the US which plunged the group into loss.
As a result, chief executive Antoine Frerot unveiled plans to reduce the company's debt from 15bn euros to 12bn euros by 2013.
Read more at BBC News Online (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18621952)

Is all this being considered as part of the due diligence re the proposed incinerator?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 04, 2012, 06:50:47 pm
Is all this being considered as part of the due diligence re the proposed incinerator?

I wouldn't have thought so given that Herts CC has already signed the contract with Veolia to build the incinerator at New Barnfield (before they actually signed of on their Waste Strategy).

New Barnfield could end up like Newhaven:


"A waste incinerator in Sussex has been officially opened amid continued opposition from some residents and the local MP. The Newhaven incinerator burns non-recyclable waste from East Sussex to produce electricity. Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker, who represents the area, boycotted the opening, describing the incinerator as a "gigantic intrusion". However, operators Veolia, said the incinerator is needed in the area...The incinerator will generate electricity through burning an estimated 210,000 tonnes of waste a year. It has been backed by East Sussex County Council."[appears to be a majority Conservative-controlled council] - 4 July 2012 Last updated at 17:32
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-18712111 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-18712111)


"The company behind the Newhaven incinerator has denied responsibility for black ash deposits which some residents claim have affected the area. The new waste incinerator began operation in spring this year despite some local opposition. There have been reports of black ash, unusual smells and tastes affecting people in Newhaven. However, operators Veolia Environmental Services claims the plant has never exceeded permitted pollutant levels." - 19 October 2011 Last updated at 12:09
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15365923 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15365923)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on July 04, 2012, 07:26:57 pm
"Veolia Environnement SA (VIE), which sold a U.K. unit to a Morgan Stanley-backed venture yesterday* to cut debt, may dispose of its U.S. waste unit next, Bank of America Corp. said in a note."  *The article is dated 29th June, 2012.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-29/veolia-waste-sale-in-u-s-probably-next-bank-of-america-says.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-29/veolia-waste-sale-in-u-s-probably-next-bank-of-america-says.html)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 06, 2012, 10:30:35 am
"Pollution caused by traffic is above legal requirements in most parts of Brighton and Hove, a report has found. The study by Brighton and Hove City Council found that 46 out of 63 locations recorded pollution levels above EU targets during 2011. Councillors are now likely to back a drive to cut fumes and airborne particles caused mainly by vehicles, the local authority said. The council said the city risked being fined millions under EU legislation...Neil Churchill, chief executive of Asthma UK, said two-thirds of people with asthma found traffic pollution made their condition worse, but it had also been found that traffic pollution played a part in causing asthma in the first place." - 5 July 2012 Last updated at 07:47
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-18718644 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-18718644)


Somehow I don't think having an incinerator at Newhaven is helping matters. Or the planned developments further down the coast:


Devonport incinerator opponents refused judicial review - 6 July 2012 Last updated at 09:14
"Residents fighting plans to build an incinerator in Devon have been refused a judicial review. Planning permission for the waste-to-energy plant at Devonport North Yard in Plymouth was granted last year and building work is due to start soon. The plant will burn 250,000 tonnes of waste a year and some residents are worried about health risks. A group called PlymWIN had argued the city council's decision to grant planning permission was "unlawful". But the Court of Appeal has rejected an application for a judicial review."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-18734560 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-18734560)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 09, 2012, 08:31:51 pm
Found some interesting information on WRAP (an organisation that I was not familiar with).

They are bringing some waste reduction initiatives to fruition which does raise a question mark over the long term viability of incineration. And it seems Energy from Waste plants (like New Barnfield) appear to have rather high Gate Fees (basically the cost per truck) when compared to other forms of waste disposal - including landfill (which may be good news for cash-strapped Veolia but probably not for cash-strapped Herts taxpayers).
 

"WRAP works in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to help businesses, local authorities, communities and individuals reap the benefits of reducing waste, developing sustainable products and using resources in an efficient way. Established as a not-for-profit company in 2000, WRAP is backed by government funding from Defra (Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs), Scottish Government, the Welsh Government, the Northern Ireland Executive, and the European Union.  WRAP is a private company limited by guarantee, registered in England."
http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/who-we-are (http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/who-we-are)


"WRAP today announces that 73 leading UK hotels, pubs, restaurants, quick service restaurants (QSRs), contract caterers, industry bodies and government departments have signed up to the Hospitality and Food Service Agreement...The agreement aims to cut food and associated packaging waste by 5% (a CO2e reduction of 234,000 tonnes), the equivalent of approximately 100 million meals. It also aims to increase the overall rate of food and packaging waste that is being recycled, sent to AD or composted to 70% (a CO2e reduction of 336,000 tonnes)." - 27 June 2012
http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/leading-hospitality-and-food-service-companies-sign-waste-agreement (http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/leading-hospitality-and-food-service-companies-sign-waste-agreement)


"Ground-breaking research will be at the heart of a unique collaboration by retailers, suppliers, environmental charities, academics and UK governments to tackle the challenges posed by the environmental impact of every-day products. The Product Sustainability Forum (PSF) brings together more than 80 organisations to take the lead on addressing environmental and sustainability issues that arise from making and selling products.  Greenhouse gas emissions, energy consumption, water use, reliance on raw materials, product-related waste and packaging will all come under the spotlight." - 20 June 2012
http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/new-forum-tackle-environmental-footprint-every-day-goods (http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/new-forum-tackle-environmental-footprint-every-day-goods)


"For anaerobic digestion (AD) the median gate fee is £41 per tonne (with a range from £35 to £60 per tonne). This compares with a median figure of £43 per tonne in 2011 (range £36 to £64 per tonne)...Operators of AD facilities cited direct competition for feed stocks, energy prices, and broader economic pressures as factors likely to influence future AD gate fees. 

The median gate fee for EfW (energy from waste - incineration with energy recovery) facilities is £65 per tonne (with a range from £32 to £101 per tonne).  As shown by previous gate fees reports, ‘older’ facilities (pre-2000) tend to have lower gate fees (median gate fee of £64 per tonne) than ‘newer’ (post-2000) facilities (median gate fee of £82 per tonne).

Mechanical biological treatment (MBT) the wide range of facility types and treatment processes which are labelled as MBT suggests that the median gate fee should be interpreted cautiously. That said, the median MBT gate fee in this report is £79 per tonne.

The median landfill gate fee for non-hazardous material (inclusive of the standard rate of landfill tax) is £85 per tonne."
http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/wrap-gate-fees-report-2012 (http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/wrap-gate-fees-report-2012)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 11, 2012, 07:54:34 pm
Having done a bit of surfing on vacuum pyrolysis (one of the newer alternative technologies to incineration) it seems more and more like our waste - rather than being an expensive liability - is actually a future potential valuable commodity:


SITA gets go-ahead for waste plastic-to-diesel facility - 8 September 2011
"SITA UK has secured planning permission to build the ‘UK’s first’ waste plastic-to-diesel facility at Avonmouth, near Bristol. The proposals were approved by Bristol city council’s Development control (North) committee yesterday (September 7) and will also involve doubling the capacity of an existing material recycling facility at the same time from 40,000 tonnes-a-year to 80,000 tonnes-a-year...The waste plastic-to-diesel facility will convert around 6,000 tonnes-a-year of waste plastics such as yoghurt pots, food trays and bale-wraps from farms into diesel which can then be used as vehicle fuel. It will use a process developed by Irish plastics-to-diesel specialists Cynar which involves shredding and pyrolysis.SITA UK signed a deal for exclusive use of Cynar’s technology in November 2010, with a view to eventually developing 10 waste plastic-to-diesel plants nationwide, all of a similar size to that to be built in Avonmouth. Plans for the Avonmouth plant were originally submitted in April 2011. According to SITA UK, the plastics-to-diesel facility will produce around 4.2 million litres of diesel a year."
http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/plastics/sita-gets-go-ahead-for-waste-plastic-to-diesel-facility (http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/plastics/sita-gets-go-ahead-for-waste-plastic-to-diesel-facility)


SITA reveals Olympic goal for plastics-to-diesel - 18 August 2011
"If all 10 plants are built, SITA expect to produce 42 million litres-a-year of waste plastic derived fuel, as well up to 15 million litres of kerosene for use in commercial boilers. The kerosene produced is in the process of being considered for end-of-waste fuel status by the EA. With two million tonnes of mixed plastics being sent to landfill each year, Mr Palmer-Jones [SITA chief executive ] said he was confident there was “adequate feedstock” of the low-grade plastics needed to supply the 10 plants. He explained that feedstock would come from both household waste and commercial and industrial (C&I) sources. “There’s an ability to start to blend domestic waste, but we’ve also had
a lot of interest from certain food processing companies, who are part of an industry who have a lot of problems with dirty plastics,” he said. He stressed, however, that higher grade plastics would be sorted out of the material, explaining: “We won’t use high grade levels of plastics initially - they will be extracted. We’re aiming for low grades, not PET.” This, he said, was because it was economically and environmentally better to recycle higher grade material, while it also affected the waste-to-diesel system...And, he said there was also the potential for other customers to use the fuel, stressing that, as well as being produced with 20% less carbon emissions than conventional diesel, it would not cost more."
http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/plastics/sita-reveals-olympic-goal-for-plastics-to-diesel (http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/plastics/sita-reveals-olympic-goal-for-plastics-to-diesel)


"Sita, the waste company owned by the €7bn (£6bn) French utility Suez Environnement, will on Monday unveil plans to build up to 10 plants, creating 120 jobs and costing an estimated £50m. The first, likely to be located in the London area, will convert so-called "end of life" plastics back into oil-based fuel.  This is the dregs of plastic waste contaminated by food stuffs, which ordinarily ends up at landfill because it cannot be recycled...The waste company aims to build the plants at the rate of two to three per year, depending on how long it takes to get planning consents."
- 6:11AM GMT 08 Nov 2010
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8116000/Sita-to-turn-plastic-into-diesel-to-power-vehicles.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8116000/Sita-to-turn-plastic-into-diesel-to-power-vehicles.html)


"Each Cynar plant can process up to 20 tonnes of End of Life Plastic per day, producing circa 19,000 litres of high quality liquid fuels at a conversion rate of 95%. Each plant will have an annual throughput of up to 6,000 tonnes. The Cynar Technology represents a unique and profitable means of managing the plastic issue so that in the future there will be a significant decrease in the End of Life Plastics disposed of in landfill sites or incinerated."
http://www.cynarplc.com/cynar-waste-introduction.asp (http://www.cynarplc.com/cynar-waste-introduction.asp)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 13, 2012, 11:11:36 am
Message from HAI - Part 1:

URGENT ACTION REQUIRED

PLEASE RESPOND TO THE LATEST CONSULTATION BY HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL

CLOSING DATE IS MONDAY JULY 23RD

THE CONSULTATION IS ABOUT MATERIAL RELEASED BY VEOLIA (IN JUNE) THAT SHOWS:

 1. THE VISUAL IMPACT THE INCINERATOR WOULD MAKE ON IMPORTANT HERITAGE SITES

2. THE LENGTH OF THE PLUME AND THE TIME IT WOULD BE VISIBLE.


1. VISUAL IMPACT ON HERITAGE SITES

Veolia have now released 37 photographs and three photo-montages, which show the impact on heritage sites from which the incinerator would be visible.

These important heritage sites include:

i. Hatfield House (especially the Old Palace) and its Gardens and  Park,

ii. Gobions Folly Arch at Little Heath,

iii. North Mymms House and Park,

iv.  Brocket Hall and its Park.

Veolia have also submitted a Heritage Statement, in which it is admitted that the incinerator would also be visible from:

v. Old Hatfield Conservation Area

vi.  St Ethelreda’s Church

Trees in Full Leaf and Plume Not Shown

The photographs were taken in May 2012, when the trees were in full leaf, so they do not give the full visual impact. Veolia need to supply photographs taken in winter to show the full visual impact.

The photographs and montages do not show the plume of emissions, so they do not give the full visual impact. Veolia need to supply montages showing the plume to show the full visual impact.

Photomontages

1. A  photo-montage shows the incinerator in full sight from the historic viewpoint of one of the turrets of the Grade One Listed Elizabethan Old Palace at Hatfield House

2.  Another montage shows the incinerator from the Gardens of Hatfield House

3. Another montage shows the incinerator from the Park of Hatfield House.

Photographs

Many of the photographs show the blimp/balloon (which marked the incinerator position) clearly visible from:

Hatfield House and its Gardens and Park

North Mymms House and its Park

Brocket Hall Golf Course

Gobions Folly at Little Heath

Some other photographs, looking from heritage sites towards the incinerator, label the spot as “screened”, but of course it is screened by trees in full summer leaf and would probably not be screened in winter.

Photographs have not been provided from some of the heritage spots from where the incinerator would be seen. e.g. Old Hatfield Conservation Area and St Ethelreda’s Church.


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 13, 2012, 11:11:59 am
Part 2


2. PLUME VISIBILITY[/b]

The documents on plume visibility admit that it would be visible for

20-30% of daylight hours

40% of night-time hours

The length of the plume could be a maximum of 282 m by night and 253 m by day, with an average length by day of 64m and by night of 69m

This is above a dome of 42m and flues reaching to 75m.

HOW TO RESPOND

Residents and interested organisations can respond to this new information

 by email to newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk

 or by letter to New Barnfield Planning at County Hall, Hertford

 by July 23rd.

WHERE TO SEE THE PHOTOS AND INFORMATION

The photographs, and other information about the views from heritage sites and the visibility of the plume from the flues, can be seen on hertsdirect, new barnfield planning.

It can be found together with the previous documents submitted by Veolia to accompany their Planning Application.


(Go into www.hertsdirect.org (http://www.hertsdirect.org) .    In the Search box type “new barnfield planning”.

Then click on “New Barnfield planning application”

Then click on Further Information. Then on Further Information June 2012.

On that page, click on the first sentence, where it says “click here”

Then go half-way down the page, and click on “documents” towards the right.

The new documents are the ones dated 26/06/2012 (and a few dated 10/07/2012)

The new material can also be seen at the Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City libraries (including the Resources Library at New Barnfield) and at the Borough Council offices.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

PLEASE RESPOND – AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND/OR FROM AN ORGANISATION

PLEASE OBJECT TO THE PROPOSED SPOILING OF VIEWS FROM AND THE SETTING OF LOCAL HISTORIC PLACES

AND PLEASE OBJECT TO THE VISIBILITY FOR MILES AROUND OF THE PLUME FROM THE PROPOSED INCINERATOR

 Cathy Roe, Sec, Hatfield Against Incineration

Website: www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mermaid on July 13, 2012, 11:53:30 am
I can't be the only person who has difficulty struggling through the very long posts above, most containing links to yet more info to plough through. I simply don't have the time to do it  :-\

The tactics of the pressure groups 38 degrees, Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and Avaaz have greatest success when they pre-write the letter or the text for the on-line petition.

Please can one of the organisers of HAI or any other group opposed to the incinerator, take a leaf out of the Green Belt Society book and just provide us with a letter we can download, print, sign and send off - job done!!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 13, 2012, 01:55:49 pm
I can't be the only person who has difficulty struggling through the very long posts above, most containing links to yet more info to plough through. I simply don't have the time to do it  :-\

The tactics of the pressure groups 38 degrees, Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and Avaaz have greatest success when they pre-write the letter or the text for the on-line petition.

Please can one of the organisers of HAI or any other group opposed to the incinerator, take a leaf out of the Green Belt Society book and just provide us with a letter we can download, print, sign and send off - job done!!

I have to agree. Information overload and far to much to digest.

I remember posting before urging a simplification of the objection process. It needs to be one click, one action and send - with the option of click for more info along the way.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on July 13, 2012, 02:26:30 pm
Completely agree.

Whilst trekbat's intentions are clearly good I simply ignore all his posts now as they are so verbose and hard work to digest.

I really feel the cause would be better served in a different way, perhaps as Dave and Mermaid have suggested.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 13, 2012, 03:28:05 pm
Whilst trekbat's intentions are clearly good I simply ignore all his posts now as they are so verbose and hard work to digest.

Agreed, but I am also grateful for all the hard work Trekbat puts into informing the rest of us.  It would be great if there is a way that's easier to consume and respond to.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 13, 2012, 09:43:51 pm
Apologies for the long post (I didn't have time to edit it) and will pass your comments back to HAI.

On a personal note, frankly, I've better things to do with my time than post tedious commentaries about incinerators (certainly not my idea of an interesting topic).

Unfortunately, the reason I continue to do so is because the elected representatives of the people and local councils to which they belong do not seem to be keeping people informed about developments.

I am not a BP resident and once the incinerator issue is resolved one way or another I shall return to being a private citizen in my own neck of the woods.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on July 13, 2012, 10:22:18 pm
I appreciate Trekbat's posts and I think it's laziness to expect someone to write out a form letter for downloading and sending or e-mailing. None of us have much free time but this is an important issue and it is wise to be as informed as possible on the subject.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mermaid on July 13, 2012, 10:47:30 pm
It's not laziness, it's efficiency. Did you read my post properly? The most successful pressure groups use pre-written letters. Our own Green Belt Society has also used pre-written letters to great effect. Are you damning all of these groups? Or are you trying to make yourself look superior in some way?

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on July 14, 2012, 09:28:23 am
Why do we need to respond to endless consultations that appear designed to wear down
opposition as people suffer from objector fatigue?
Surely items such as visual blight and the plume (or more importantly what's in it) were pretty
high on most of the original 6,000 objections to the original planning application.
 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 14, 2012, 10:06:51 am
Thanks, EvieMay.

I'm no expert  but as I understand it, a form letter would simply be classed as one objection regardless of the number of people who sent it (don't forget this is the planning department of the body that has commissioned the incinerator and produced one of the most complex consultation documents I have ever seen).

Bearing in mind that the Hatfield Against Incineration group is in reality barely a handful of people, none of whom apparently have any experience in this sort of thing as far as I can tell, it is possible that there may be something they have overlooked or may not have the local knowledge of say other views or public areas in BP and surrounding areas blighted by the incinerator.

People may also want to consider the facts: Hatfield Town Council, Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, Hertfordshire County Council and the local MP are all Conservative or Conservative-controlled.

HCC wants to build an incinerator at New Barnfield. All the others publicly say they are against it. Yet, as people on this board have witnessed, several Hatfield ward HCC councillors spoke against a LibDem motion to exclude the site on the grounds that it was next to a special needs school. At least two of these - who also got up and spoke against the motion - were also councillors on smaller local councils that are allegedly committed to fighting these proposals. Yet as far as I know neither of them have been censured for their actions or had the party whip withdrawn.

Check back on the posts in this board, look at the council web sites and back issues of their various
publications and see how much effort they have in reality dedicated to informing the public and mobilising people power against the incinerator proposals.

Grant Shapps, local MP and Conservative frontbencher, publicly stated at an HAI meeting at Welham Green that the idea of siting a massive incinerator next to a densely populated residential area was "madness". Curiously, when he was promoting his 'Fairer Deal for Hatfield', which in all likelihood would have seen the dissolution of Hatfield Town Council and the transferring of all its assets to a cash-strapped WHBC, he arranged for Conservative supporters from as far afield as Letchworth to canvass people for signatures in Hatfield. Yet, to my knowledge, did not do the same for key petitions / events in the incinerator campaign.

Why? You'll have to ask them and / or draw your own conclusions.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on July 14, 2012, 12:20:57 pm

The tactics of the pressure groups 38 degrees, Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and Avaaz have greatest success when they pre-write the letter or the text for the on-line petition.


These pressure groups have many more resources at their disposal than the small, local groups which are involved in this campaign.  Hatfield Against Incineration, for example, is a non-party-political group founded by residents of Hatfield and Welham Green and supported by volunteers.   

The issue with pre-printed objections is that they are counted as a petition unless they include a personal comment and, as I understand it, a petition counts as one objection.

This particular stage of the planning process is consulting on two issues: 
1   The visual impact on Heritage Sites
2   The visual effect of the plume

The information from which to put together an objection is to be found in Trekbat’s post and on http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#home)

Put simply, that is,
1   The photographs and photomontages show that the proposed incinerator will spoil the views from and the settings
of many historic places.
2   The plume will be visible for miles around.

Perhaps we could use this forum to discuss/share ideas for our objections!

Why do we need to respond to endless consultations that appear designed to wear down
opposition as people suffer from objector fatigue?
Surely items such as visual blight and the plume (or more importantly what's in it) were pretty
high on most of the original 6,000 objections to the original planning application.
 
Agreed, but each stage needs to be commented on/objected to otherwise Veolia could say that people no longer object because the further information that has been issued has changed their opinions.

One of the resources that local campaign groups lack is money.  Anyone who feels financially able to do so can make a donation by sending a cheque payable to New Barnfield (Action Fund) Trust to the Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP at Maynard House, The Common, Hatfield, A10 0NF. 

If you feel able to offer your time to HAI, or would like to contact the group on any other matter, then you can get in touch via the email link on http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/ (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/)  Welwyn Hatfield Friends of the Earth can be contacted at welwynhatfieldfoe (at) gmail (dot) com.  They are very happy to answer questions from individuals.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 14, 2012, 12:35:50 pm
One of the resources that local campaign groups lack is money.  Anyone who feels financially able to do so can make a donation by sending a cheque payable to New Barnfield (Action Fund) Trust to the Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP at Maynard House, The Common, Hatfield, A10 0NF. 

Hi Ex Libris,

Thanks for laying the details out so clearly.  As for donations. I searched the term 'New Barnfield (Action Fund) Trust' and went to that site, but I couldn't see a link or any information saying how those funds would be used.

If people do as you say and donate, how do we know how the donations will be spent?  If there is a link clarifying this and I have missed it, please post details here.

Also, it's important people interested in signing up read the small print at the foot of the page which reads:

Quote
"By providing your contact details you agree to being contacted from time to time by Grant Shapps MP regarding local issues."

From my point of view it would be much better if they included some information about what happens to donations and assure us that our personal details are not be added to the Conservative Party mailing list.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 14, 2012, 08:59:34 pm
In fairness, I should point out that people connected with HAI and WHEN (Welwyn Hatfield Environment Network) do think that WHBC's own Planning Section has done a good job of its objection to the incinerator.

However, the web site David refers to above is a case in point - although publicly claiming to be opposed to the incinerator, there seems to be precious little signs of any active involvement in the campaign against it by the people who set it up (assuming that it was not just a ruse to harvest email addresses and contact details):

http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/campaign.html (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/campaign.html)

As I have previously pointed out (Reply #448) the actions of the ruling party have on at least one occasion actually conflicted with / undermined the work of HAI (which they are supposedly members of).

Or put it another way: if the people who claim to be opposed to the incinerator really were then you'd be hearing about the latest developments from them.

As always Do Your Own Research and make up your own minds.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 14, 2012, 09:22:36 pm
However, the web site David refers to above is a case in point - although publicly claiming to be opposed to the incinerator, there seems to be precious little signs of any active involvement in the campaign against it by the people who set it up (assuming that it was not just a ruse to harvest email addresses and contact details):
http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/campaign.html (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/campaign.html)

Hi Trekbat, do you know where donations go to if made via that site?  I can't find any information.  Am I missing something?   And yes, it seems an unnecessary and unwelcome (to some) barrier to entry to have to go on a Conservative Party mailing list if you want to be part of the campaign.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on July 15, 2012, 09:25:23 am
I have been advised there is a Welwyn & Hatfield planning meeting at campus west this thursday the 19th, Starting at 7.30 pm
The first thing on the agenda is the dreaded incinerator.
I will be attending with other committee members of Welham Green Residents Association.
Let us once again show our objections to this despicable plan.
Peter (Inci)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 15, 2012, 10:05:34 am
I have been advised there is a Welwyn & Hatfield planning meeting at campus west this thursday the 19th, Starting at 7.30 pm
The first thing on the agenda is the dreaded incinerator.

I have added the event to the calendar.

If anyone has an event that should be on the site's calendar please us the 'LINK TO CALENDAR' tab under any post that has a time and date that needs to be publicised.

Thanks

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on July 15, 2012, 12:22:46 pm
I have been advised there is a Welwyn & Hatfield planning meeting at campus west this thursday the 19th, Starting at 7.30 pm
The first thing on the agenda is the dreaded incinerator.
I will be attending with other committee members of Welham Green Residents Association.
Let us once again show our objections to this despicable plan.
Peter (Inci)

Welwyn hatfield Council is a 'consultee' and has already made its objections to the County Council - the planning authority for this type of application. 

Further evidence has been issued and the report to be considered on Thursday makes these recommendations

'It is recommended that a letter of response to consultation on the additional
information submitted in respect of application S6/2011/2570/CD be sent to
Hertfordshire County Council in the following terms:

a) That this Council acknowledges the receipt of the additional information which
has clarified certain details in respect of the proposed RERF development;

b) That the additional information has not addressed all the requests for further
information set out by this Council in its letter dated 10th February 2012, nor is
it sufficient to overcome this Council’s objections to the application as set out
in its letter of 5th April 2012;

c) That in the view of this Council no planning conditions or obligations attached
to any planning permission would be sufficient to overcome this Council’s
objections to the proposed RERF;'

North Mymms Parish Council has also written to the County Council to say that nothing in the new evidence has changed its grounds for objection already made to the County Council.  The NM Green Belt Soc have replied similarly.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 15, 2012, 02:38:44 pm
Is anyone able to address my earlier questions (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php/topic,1651.msg29900.html#msg29900) about the legitimacy of the http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/) site?

Questions:
Also, why does the site encourage people to sign the petition more than once? See point one in screen grab below. That seems extremely undemocratic and manipulative. Surely asking people to "Sign or re-sign the petition below (even if you've already signed it)" will a) distort the outcome and b) eventually undermine the legitimacy of a petition.  (Also, why does it download four cookies to my computer without letting me know the cookie policy?)

(http://www.brookmans.com/news/july12/snbp.jpg)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 15, 2012, 03:01:56 pm
Hi Trekbat, do you know where donations go to if made via that site?  I can't find any information.  Am I missing something?   And yes, it seems an unnecessary and unwelcome (to some) barrier to entry to have to go on a Conservative Party mailing list if you want to be part of the campaign.

David

Hi David,

Just logged on a short while ago. I think it should go to the Action Trust Fund (headed by Grant by I believe Paul is also on the board) but I'm not too familiar with it and its workings. Tried calling Cathy of HAI but wasn't able to reach her.

Incidentally, I signed Grant's petition in the early days when I thought that they were genuine in their opposition (and his 'Fairer deal for Hatfield' - before I got additional facts on that from opponents and even one of the HTC Conservative councillors). However, in my opinion, the time for petitions has passed and it should be fought through the various stages of planning process (tortuous as that may be) with an eye to a potential judicial appeal / legal action.

Also found mention of the fund and opposition to the incinerator from his St Albans counterpart.
http://www.annemain.com/content/anne-main-slams-pfi-funded-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.annemain.com/content/anne-main-slams-pfi-funded-new-barnfield-incinerator)

Given they're all allegedly opposed to it, it rather begs the question why it's still very much on the cards (although I'm hopefully, that the objection from Hatfield House will carry more clout than the rest of us plebs. Perhaps we should be petitioning Lord Salisbury).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 15, 2012, 03:20:00 pm
However, in my opinion, the time for petitions has passed and it should be fought through the various stages of planning process (tortuous as that may be) with an eye to a potential judicial appeal / legal action.

Thanks Trekbat, perhaps the site is out of date and no longer part of the campaign.

David

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on July 16, 2012, 12:11:40 pm
It's not laziness, it's efficiency. Did you read my post properly? The most successful pressure groups use pre-written letters. Our own Green Belt Society has also used pre-written letters to great effect. Are you damning all of these groups? Or are you trying to make yourself look superior in some way?

Make myself look superior? Are you 12? Don't be so ridiculous. I don't disagree with strategies used by other pressure groups and, in fact, my post wasn't directly aimed at you but was a response to all who seemed to be slamming Trekbat for posting his findings for us to either read or ignore as we see fit. Some appeared to be quite unappreciative of his efforts. Anyway, back to the topic at hand...
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 16, 2012, 05:56:02 pm
Just to let everyone know, Cathy has been in touch to say that she has seen the comments / concerns and will be putting something together with Paul to help address the issues raised (and she has reiterated that WHBC Planning Dept has done a good job on their objection).

However, they may not be able to answer all your queries as the Save New Barnfield site is NOT an HAI website.

David has pointed out (in Reply #525) the odd exhortation in Point 1. Possibly, this may simply be an extremely poor choice of wording. However, I don't doubt Veolia's legal team will have no trouble having this petition dismissed as flawed and lacking any credibility, which rather suggests signing it has been a complete waste of time and effort for people who are genuinely opposed to the incinerator.

------------

Thanks again, EvieMay.

I should point out that I've been active on Grant Shapps forum for several years now - initially in an attempt to find out why Hatfield with so much history and a great location between London and Cambridge has been going downhill at a rate of knots and to hopefully help reverse the decline. Although identities of posters is generally unclear, there are councillors and other party officials using the site but I've received more abuse than answers.

Having tried the nice way, I have resorted to shedding a spotlight on activities / inactions / inconsistencies that they clearly have no answer to, and unable to refute my arguments things are getting more personal and unpleasant.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 16, 2012, 06:56:23 pm
David has pointed out (in Reply #525) the odd exhortation in Point 1. Possibly, this may simply be an extremely poor choice of wording. However, I don't doubt Veolia's legal team will have no trouble having this petition dismissed as flawed and lacking any credibility, which rather suggests signing it has been a complete waste of time and effort for people who are genuinely opposed to the incinerator.

That is the problem, encouraging people to sign a petition more than once damages the integrity of the petition.  (Screen grab of point 1 from http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/) below.)
Quote
(http://www.brookmans.com/news/july12/snbpcrop.jpg)
If it was a bunch of activists it could be forgiven as being 'an extremely poor choice of wording' as you say Trekbat, but coming from a political party and on a website 'promoted on behalf of Welwyn Hatfield Conservatives' it's staggering.  If the local press were on their toes they would have picked up on this.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: MikeL on July 17, 2012, 07:53:40 pm
Quote
If the local press were on their toes they would have picked up on this.

I'm not sure there is anything to pick up on.

The original Planning Application for the Incinerator was put in by Veolia on 5.12.11 with Public Consultation until 31.1.12.

There was a further Public Consultation which ended on 29.6.12.

There is at present a further Public Consultation open until 23rd July regarding Heritage Sites. 

It is quite valid to object to each of these consultations.

EVEN IF YOU HAVE ALREADY OBJECTED - THIS IS YET ANOTHER PUBLIC CONSULTATION AND  YOU CAN OBJECT AGAIN - PLANNING APPLICATION  6/2570-11

Re what's happening to the money:
The New Barnfield Fund was looking at launching a legal challenge to some aspects of the process and took top legal advice but were advised that it was unlikely to succeed and were thereby saved a considerable amount of money being wasted.  The Fund has money in hand.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 17, 2012, 08:28:57 pm
It is quite valid to object to each of these consultations.

Hi Mike,

Of course it is, but that is not the point. This is one petition which the organisers are encouraging people to sign multiple times. That's can't be right or honest.  And as for the funds ...

Re what's happening to the money:
The New Barnfield Fund was looking at launching a legal challenge to some aspects of the process and took top legal advice but were advised that it was unlikely to succeed and were thereby saved a considerable amount of money being wasted.  The Fund has money in hand.

I am no wiser having read your answer as to where the money will be spent.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on July 18, 2012, 01:25:59 pm
Is everone aware that our objections to the TOXIC BLOT have to be in by the 23rd to HCC Planning
Peter
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 18, 2012, 04:53:08 pm
A couple of observations:

1. The main (and only print) local paper is the Welwyn Hatfield Times, originally owned by the corporation that ran WGC and based there. It has managed to miss / overlook a number of Hatfield-related stories, like: the unequal spending on WGC projects while Hatfield declines; the unchecked growth of houses in multiple occupation (HMOs); the apparent concentration of refugees / asylum seekers here (while local residents were apparently moved into vacant council properties in WGC); the lopsided library provision...

2. The overall consultation process has been far more complex than Reply #531 suggests. As part of the process there has been the independent inquiry by the Government Examiner; the move of the Central Resources Library; the 'temporary' relocation of Southfield School; the Environment Agency operating licence bid; Changes to HCC Waste Strategy...All involving public consultation, wading through often reams of paper, and responding by the deadline (and in cases with additional evidence added it meant a second round of consultations).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: James Bentall on July 18, 2012, 05:33:56 pm
The main (and only print) local paper is the Welwyn Hatfield Times, originally owned by the corporation that ran WGC and based there. It has managed to miss / overlook a number of Hatfield-related stories, like: the unequal spending on WGC projects while Hatfield declines; the unchecked growth of houses in multiple occupation (HMOs); the apparent concentration of refugees / asylum seekers here (while local residents were apparently moved into vacant council properties in WGC); the lopsided library provision...

It's worth keeping an eye on

http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/)

which although not in a print version is written with news solely about Hatfield
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 19, 2012, 01:59:34 pm
The odds seem to be stacking up against us but it's not over by a long chalk.

1. The Government Inspector has submitted her report (24-page PDF attached - I hope), and I've only just skimmed through it. Seems she's given the go-ahead for HCC Waste Strategy subject to some amends (but they didn't seem particularly significant in terms of stopping the wretched thing as far as I could tell).


2. I have heard an unconfirmed report that Herts Chamber of Commerce has submitted a comment in favour of the incinerator. Tried but was unable to find it on the HCC website.


3. "A legal challenge to a controversial £500m waste incinerator in Norfolk has been rejected at the High Court.

The plant, at Saddlebow, King's Lynn, was granted planning permission by Norfolk County Council but the government will make a final decision.

King's Lynn and West Norfolk Council challenged the £169m of government funding at the High Court.

But Mr Justice Eady said there was "no arguable case" for a judicial review of the decision.

The council said it would be seeking a meeting with the judge to clarify the reasons for the refusal." - 17 July 2012 Last updated at 18:51
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-18876209 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-18876209)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: James Bentall on July 19, 2012, 04:18:22 pm
2. I have heard an unconfirmed report that Herts Chamber of Commerce has submitted a comment in favour of the incinerator. Tried but was unable to find it on the HCC website.

http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/hertschambercommerceresponsefi.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/hertschambercommerceresponsefi.pdf)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 19, 2012, 04:58:35 pm
Thanks, James.

Although the Hatfield address at the bottom of their letter didn't do my blood pressure any good!

Small wonder that the economy is in such a mess - they mention that 52 permanent jobs will be created but conveniently overlooked the fact around close to double that number will go in just clearing the New Barnfield site (and some how I don't think Mitsubishi will want to stay on in their offices across the road once it's operational).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 19, 2012, 05:18:12 pm
Well, here's a turn up for the books - turns out that the Herts Chamber of Commerce Chief Executive  Tim Hutchings is a graduate of and visiting lecturer at the University of Hertfordshire; whose directorships include Hertfordshire Tourism & Leisure Partnership and Groundwork Trust (Hertfordshire) Limited.

Oh, and he lives in Hoddesdon, and he's a leading member of their Conservative Association.

Graduate of and Visiting Lecturer at University of Hertfordshire
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/timhutchings (http://uk.linkedin.com/in/timhutchings)


Tim is married and lives with his wife and family in Hoddesdon. Directorships include Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce & Industry; Hertfordshire Tourism & Leisure Partnership (Chair); and Groundwork Trust (Hertfordshire) Limited
http://www.national-training.com/events/conferences/eec2010/SpeakerProfileTimHutchins.php (http://www.national-training.com/events/conferences/eec2010/SpeakerProfileTimHutchins.php)


Broxbourne and Hoddesdon South Ward - Tim Hutchings
http://www.broxbourneconservatives.com/person/tim-hutchings (http://www.broxbourneconservatives.com/person/tim-hutchings)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 21, 2012, 08:48:13 pm
Hartlebury waste incinerator approved by Secretary of State - 20 July 2012 Last updated at 19:12

"Plans for a £120m incinerator for Worcestershire have been approved by the government.

Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Eric Pickles MP said the the 200,000 waste facility near Hartlebury can be built.

Worcestershire County Council approved the application from Mercia Waste Management in March 2011. A public enquiry was held in November..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-18921930 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-18921930)


"Political Control: this Council is under Conservative Control"
http://www.malverngazette.co.uk/li/councils.detail.English%20Shire%20County-Worcestershire%20County%20Council/ (http://www.malverngazette.co.uk/li/councils.detail.English%20Shire%20County-Worcestershire%20County%20Council/)


It would seem that unless the politicians involved understand that they will have to pay a high enough political price there seems to be little chance of stopping these things. Clearly the interests and desires of big business speak louder than the hopes and dreams of 'little folk'.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 22, 2012, 02:08:22 pm
Reminder: Tomorrow (Monday 23/07/12) is the cut off for lodging objections to the additional heritage visual impact images - please see Reply #507 and Reply #508 for details

-------------

Some of the responses to the earlier 'further information' supplied by Veolia for its New Barnfield planning application can be seen on the HCC website (it is worth noting that HCC does not put online all the responses received, often there are long delays and in cases queries about why some information contained has been redacted):

http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/furtherinformation/responsestofurtherinfo/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/furtherinformation/responsestofurtherinfo/)

As mentioned previously, a vote in favour from Herts Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

No objections from Luton or Heathrow Airports and NATS (although I suspect light aircraft using Panshanger are the most likely to be affected).

However, on a happier note, Gascoyne Cecil Estates (Hatfield House) have reiterated their objections and have hired their own consultants, which suggests they're getting the big guns ready.  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on July 22, 2012, 06:50:54 pm
Hi,

Sorry for the delay replying, been rather busy with a raft of stuff. This is going to be a long post, hopefully you'll find it informative enough not to give up before the end!

First, the situation with HAI, NB(AF)Trust and the political parties is, if you're not involved, confusing, so I thought I'd try and let everyone know how they're supposed to work.

HAI and NB(AF)Trust are cross-party. Note, they are NOT apolitical, as the abandoning of the planned incinerator means political pressure is needed and therefore the organisations have political goals. They consist of political activists and concerned residents, representatives of community groups and our councils.

HAI was set up first with the declared goal of opposing the site and incineration generally as a technology. This latter meant a number of individuals and organisations felt unable to co-operate, mainly the local conservative party, who believe the technology is OK but the site isn't.

NB(AF)T was set up (getting it's tortuous name due to banking restrictions on the term 'trust') to oppose the site. Very early discussions agreed the terms of engagement between the two organisations as the goals of the two became aligned when the planning application went in.

HAI is the 'public' face of the campaign, namely dealing with public meetings, getting objection forms to people, keeping people informed. NB(AF)T is primarily there to deliver support for legal opposition to the site and plan. It was the recipient of the big donations (to date around 50k) and has spent a substantial amount of this on consultants, barristers, solicitors and other experts.

HAI and NBT agreed that 'big' donations should be directed at the NB(AF)T as the big costs would be incurred in legal support. HAI would continue to take small donations and 'buckets' and could call on the NB(AF)T if needed to 'top up' the operating funds. It did this to get the 25,000 planning application objection forms printed, but other than that, has been self-sustaining. If HAI funds get over a certain level, money will be sent to NB(AF)T to help with legal support funding.

Since Grant is chair of NB(AF)T, we agreed it made most sense to direct large donors care of him at Maynard House.

I can assure you that ALL monies spent by both HAI and NB(AF)T have been used on the campaign. I can do so as I sit on HAI committee and therefore see the accounts. I have NEVER seen an item that was listed but not previously agreed by the exec as appropriate expenditure for the campaing.
(continued)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on July 22, 2012, 06:52:57 pm
As for NB(AF)T I am the secretary and ALL THREE officers are required to sign cheques before money can be committed from NB(AF)T. I would not sign if I had any doubt about the validity of the funding support being for the campaign. So, other than in a case of deliberate fraud (which is extremely unlikely), you can be assured there are checks and balances to ensure funds are appropriately and wisely spent. As I was the Lib Dem Parliamentary candidate for Welwyn Hatfield in 2010, I would suggest it's rather unlikely I'd willingly redirect money to the Conservative party! If your cheque is written to 'New Barnfield Action Fund', it will be spent on legal support for the campaign and nothing else. You can donate to HAI rather than New Barnfield Trust if you prefer.
(please contact us through our information line info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk for details).

Secondly, the 'SaveNewBarnfield' site, that is a Conservative Party site, the petition they ask you to sign is a Conservative-driven petition and, should you fill it in, you would be entered on their database as having responded. The same would apply for Lib Dem petitions and indeed Labour party petitions. All the parties have their own political goals and want information about prospective supporters and voters. They will collect your info if you sign, but also have to comply with the data protection act and let you know they're collecting it. Having told you, you can decide whether to give them that information or not.

Finally, very many people who know how planning systems work have advised us to steer well clear of 'form' letters when responding to consultations. Form letters are NOT treated as objections, they're treated as a petition, so your signature at the bottom is the ONLY bit that is counted, and everything else is a waste of time. As a petition, the number of sigs is counted, and reported, and that's it. With an individually scripted response, your response is treated as a separate objection. That's why a previous incinerator (in Nottingham I think) got <1000 objections and the New Barnfield one got >6000. THE LACK OF A FORM LETTER WAS ENTIRELY DELIBERATE AND CONSIDERED TO ENSURE THOSE RESPONDING ACTUALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE!.

We got well over double the second largest number of objections to a planning application HCC had ever received. We know they'll play the 'consult them to death' game, we've got to play back and the best way of doing that is individual responses each time. If we give up responding, they'll have won.

The latest consultation is about new information on views from heritage sites, and the visibility of the plume. The simplest response is to tell New Barnfield Planning that the visual impact on heritage sites would be unacceptable, and so would the visibility of the plume of emissions.  Email newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk by July 23rd 2012.

Regards,
Paul Zukowskyj
HAI Exec member
Secretary NB(AF)Trust
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 23, 2012, 07:14:24 am
Sorry for the delay replying, been rather busy with a raft of stuff. This is going to be a long post, hopefully you'll find it informative enough not to give up before the end! First, the situation with HAI, NB(AF)Trust and the political parties is, if you're not involved, confusing, so I thought I'd try and let everyone know how they're supposed to work.
Dear Paul,

Thank you for taking time to try to address some of the questions raised, however it would be good to have clarification on the following issues:

1: Donations
You talk about the money raised and the ‘big costs’ for legal issues and the ‘small donations’ for operational costs. Why not add a link to some text explaining this, along with a breakdown of how the money has been spent so far to page on the site in question http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/)?  Surely that is required for transparency and accountability reasons.

2: Privacy
If the campaign is cross-party, why should the individual parties involved seek political gain (through expanding their campaigning database) when anyone wants to register their objections as part of that campaign?  That, for some, will result in immediately leaving the page and taking no action.  You say there will be an opt-out option ...
They will collect your info if you sign, but also have to comply with the data protection act and let you know they're collecting it. Having told you, you can decide whether to give them that information or not.
... but I presume that opt out option will only appear AFTER I have entered my private details. Any opt out should appear BEFORE any private information is added. So the opt out (and it would be much better to have an opt in) option should be on the same page where the personal information is entered. (The site needs to clarify its cookie policy too, by the way.)

3: Legitimacy
If a petition has any value in the democratic process, why try to manipulate the outcome by encouraging people to register their objections multiple times? Surely that not only reduces the value of the efforts of legitimate petitioners who only sign once, but also totally weakens the legitimacy of the petition as a whole, reducing it to a pointless exercise. Nobody in their right mind is going to take any notice of that petition when they read the blatant plea to skew the outcome from the campaigners. (Wording below is a screen grab from the site).
Quote
(http://www.brookmans.com/news/july12/snbpcrop.jpg)

In a nutshell, I am not going to donate to a campaign page that doesn’t offer transparency and accountability, and I am not going to sign a petition if it involves being added to a political mailing list and if that petition is based on asking individuals to vote multiple times.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on July 23, 2012, 09:49:39 am
Hi David,

in response:

1. As I said before, www.savenewbarnfield.com (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com) is NOT the website of NB(AF)T, it is a site set up by the Conservative Party. They included info on how to contribute to NB(AF)T at my request, but I have no control whatsoever over the site as I'm a Liberal Democrat, not a Conservative. I can't add info like the use of the funds as I am unable to influence or instruct the site owner.

The bulk of the money spent so far went to a consultancy company called Eunomia, who prepared a significant document critiqueing the Waste Core Strategy that is being used to justify 'Very Special Circumstances' for the development of New Barnfield. The result was some major modifications to that document, not least the removal of all mention of the procurement process and removal of 'Very Special Circumstances' making green belt development 'acceptable'.

A significant chunk has been spent on our barrister and his attention and editing of both NB(AF)T and HAI's response to the Planning Application. Much of this was required for him to read and digest the application (which in hardcopy stretches to around four feet of shelf space). His input to those documents (he didn't draft them, that was done by volunteers) was invaluable in ensuring the objection was as legally sound as possible.

Around 1k has been spent on a consultant from 'Only Solutions LLP', who has helped with the subsequent consultation responses as they have vast experience of incinerator applications.

A personal donation from me further paid directly for solicitor and barrister legal advice on whether to pursue a judicial appeal on the Southfield School move. The advice suggested we should not pursue that as the likelihood of success was limited and the funds required would have jeopardised any JR of the main application.

I hope that helps explain where the money is directed.

I'll answer 2 and 3 separately as I'm likely to run out of space again.....
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on July 23, 2012, 10:07:45 am
David,

2. Political parties seek 'political gain' wherever they can find it. Not to do so is to deny their rationale for existence.

If you want to register your objections, the best place to do that is on the HCC website, at the end of the day they're the ones planning this thing! If you don't want your name on a political database, dont sign the various petitions!

HAI asked the four political parties with a presence in Welwyn Hatfield to set up petitions. The Lib Dem one can be signed at: http://campaigns.libdems.org.uk/NBPA (http://campaigns.libdems.org.uk/NBPA)

The reason for this is that petitions presented at the Planning Application meeting at HCC allow presenters of those petitions to speak for three minutes. Labour, Green and Lib Dem (and we believe Conservative, although I've not had that confirmed) agreed to allow NB(AF)T's barrister to speak to their petitions. We can play the game HCC want to play too.

If you sign ANY petition, you can, by contacting the local party concerned, get your info removed from their database on request, but you will not get the option on the webpage (I don't think). If you don't want your info on there, DON'T SIGN!

As for cookie policy, again, that's a matter for the Conservative party, I have no influence on their site.

3. Again, I reiterate, the website isn't within my control. I would agree that it would appear to undermine the legitimacy of the petition if someone could sign it twice or more, but that's a matter for the Conservatives and not something HAI, NB(AF)T or I can influence.

It is entirely legitimate, however, for an individual to sign all four petitions as they are separate entities and have slightly different foci, despite all being against the plan.

Finally, I have no idea how the PayPal aspect of the savenewbarnfield site works. Personally, I'd send a cheque made out to New Barnfield Action Fund, so I was certain the funds were spent, and only spent, on the campaign. The bank account for NB(AF)T is completely separate from and nothing to do with the Conservative Party, is, as I said earlier only accessible with cross-party signatures and is there to fight the campaign in whichever way the cross-party group thinks, collectively, is best.

I hope that helps inform you of the situation and reassures you that donations are well spent and worth doing.

Regards,

Paul
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 23, 2012, 10:26:31 am
Hi David,

in response:

1. As I said before, www.savenewbarnfield.com (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com) is NOT the website of NB(AF)T, it is a site set up by the Conservative Party. They included info on how to contribute to NB(AF)T at my request, but I have no control whatsoever over the site as I'm a Liberal Democrat, not a Conservative. I can't add info like the use of the funds as I am unable to influence or instruct the site owner.

Hi Paul, yes, I know it's not your site. And although you kindly had a stab at answering the original questions (for which I am grateful), I am well aware that it's for others to respond to the points raised about the site in question.

2. Political parties seek 'political gain' wherever they can find it. Not to do so is to deny their rationale for existence.

Yes, of course that is true. Just a pity that a community petition has to be viewed as a political opportunity when the opt in or opt out issue is not central to the job in hand (and will put some off).

3. Again, I reiterate, the website isn't within my control. I would agree that it would appear to undermine the legitimacy of the petition if someone could sign it twice or more, but that's a matter for the Conservatives and not something HAI, NB(AF)T or I can influence.

Yes, as I said in answer to point one, I know that you are not the person to address this issue.  Nice of you to try to answer what you can of the points raised though.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aqila on July 26, 2012, 01:06:21 pm
Referencing Trekbat's earlier thread on the Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce & Industry voting in favour of the Hatfield incinerator, and the fact that the Director, lives in Hoddesdon - do we know if the HCCI has also voted in favour of the Hoddesdon Incinerator?

By the way thanks to Trekbat et al for all your hardwork in keeping us informed on this thread.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 26, 2012, 04:47:00 pm
Thank you, Jacqui.

You raise a very interesting and pertinent question about HCCI's position in regard to the Hoddesdon plant.

I don't know the answer but it would be interesting to find out.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on July 26, 2012, 05:48:57 pm
There seems to be some confusion about money going to the New Barnfield Action Fund, and also why people have been asked to object more than once.

The original Planning Application for the Incinerator was put in by Veolia on 5.12.11 with Public Consultation until 31.1.12.  The North Mymms District Green Belt Society objected in detail

There was a further Public Consultation which ended on 29.6.12.  The North Mymms District Green Belt Society objected again.

The latest Public Consultation closed on 23rd July regarding Heritage Sites.  The North Mymms District Green Belt Society objected saying that the "blimp" put up by Veolia could be seen from Folly Arch, Little Heath, Balloon Corner, Welham Green, and from Hatfield House.

At each stage it was necessary to make new comments or objections.  Previous comments or objections may have needed modification due to further information becoming available such as the latest release of photomontages.

The New Barnfield Action Fund took top legal advice and was thereby saved money being wasted on an expensive Judicial Review which it was considered would not be successful.  The Fund has money in hand.  There is still a long way to go.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 26, 2012, 07:16:06 pm
There seems to be some confusion about money going to the New Barnfield Action Fund, and also why people have been asked to object more than once.

Hi Bob,

There is no confusion, just unanswered questions - namely a) why a campaign site is urging people to sign one specific petition (not several) more than once, b) why they don't have a link explaining where the funds are going and how they are/will be used, and c) why people interested in joining the campaign have to opt out of being added to a political party database.

I am afraid your explanation doesn't address any of the questions, and nobody from the site has so far offered any answers either. I live in hope, but judging by the silence so far don't have high expectations.

But thanks for taking a stab at it.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on July 26, 2012, 10:28:51 pm
As I understand it from the representative of HAI who was at the Brookmans Park Village Day, there are a number of petitions which people can sign if they are against the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield.  These are new petitions that will be presented at the HCC Development Control Committee meeting which decides on the planning application.  See http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#post207 (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#post207)   

Could it be that the information on savenewbarnfield.com is just badly worded and doesn’t make it clear that, as these petitions are new, they can be signed even if you have already signed a previous one?  If you select “Our Campaign”, the headline on that page is “SIGN THE  NEW SAVE BARNFIELD PETITION NOW"  I do agree though that it is a rather poor website lacking any substantial or current information.

As well as those from the main political parties, Herts WithOutWaste has an online petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/NoAshHCC/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/NoAshHCC/petition.html) requesting that Hertfordshire County Council withdraws its proposals to build an incinerator as the solution for dealing with the County’s household waste.  It is not specifically about New Barnfield.  Herts WoW is a network of groups in Hertfordshire.  The environmental groups include Friends of the Earth (North Herts and Stevenage, St Albans, Welwyn Hatfield), and Transition Towns (Letchworth and Welwyn Hatfield).  The local campaign groups include Hatfield Against Incineration and Burning Issue Group (Ware).

David, since it was a comment in my post #518 which give rise to this, I would just like to say that I posted what I did in order to join the discussion and to circulate information rather than as a representative of any particular group or of the savenewbarnfield website. 



 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 27, 2012, 06:22:22 am
As I understand it from the representative of HAI who was at the Brookmans Park Village Day, there are a number of petitions which people can sign if they are against the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield.  These are new petitions that will be presented at the HCC Development Control Committee meeting which decides on the planning application.  See http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#post207 (http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/#post207)   

Hi Ex Libris, the first two links for the Lib Dem petition on the blog page you offered above are broken.  Perhaps the pages have been removed?

Could it be that the information on savenewbarnfield.com is just badly worded and doesn’t make it clear that, as these petitions are new, they can be signed even if you have already signed a previous one?  If you select “Our Campaign”, the headline on that page is “SIGN THE  NEW SAVE BARNFIELD PETITION NOW" 

The link to the petition at the foot of the 'Our Campaign' page on http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/) leads back to the page where people are urged to  'Sign or resign the petition below (even if you have already signed it).' Seems a clear attempt to obtain a false representation of the true sense of public concern. 

But thanks for taking the time to try to clarify the issue.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 28, 2012, 11:05:01 am
A brochure from Herts CC and Veolia has just arrive in the post entitled 'An Update on Our Proposals' and dated July 2012.

What I find interesting is that it states that the update is to 'give you information about the development of our proposals' and then it fails to do so. 

On the following page it lists 'Environmental Impact Assessment' but it's just a bullet point list of what Veolia says it has 'provided updates about'. These topic headings offer absolutely no information regarding what was actually contained in the updates - so I am none the wiser, I am afraid.

And then there is the bit about 'Alternative Site Assessment' which states "no such site has been found elsewhere in Hertfordshire  which can demonstrate a significantly lesser overall environmental impact than that at New Barnfield" - so after indirectly accepting that there will be a significant environmental impact there is no information setting out (in this document) what that 'environmental impact' is.

I am afraid the brochure raises more questions and fails to answer existing concerns.  Perhaps they will offer answers here following this tweet.



Anyway, the artist impression is clever.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on July 29, 2012, 08:54:30 am
I have invited Veolia to attend the next meeting of the Welham Green Residents Associations meeting on September 4th
at North Mymms Social Clup starting at 7.30 pm.
Perhaps if they attend they will be able to enlighten us all on their leaflet which explains nothing
. It would also be nice if they could attempt to put things in laymans terms for those of us who find it difficult to work out the abreviations the seem to be frequently using
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on July 29, 2012, 12:53:16 pm
I have invited Veolia to attend the next meeting of the Welham Green Residents Associations meeting on September 4th
at North Mymms Social Clup starting at 7.30 pm.
Perhaps if they attend they will be able to enlighten us all on their leaflet which explains nothing
. It would also be nice if they could attempt to put things in laymans terms for those of us who find it difficult to work out the abreviations the seem to be frequently using

Thank you Peter. It seems likely they will decline but should they accept your invitation would the meeting be open to the public?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 29, 2012, 02:35:13 pm
There is no confusion, just unanswered questions - namely a) why a campaign site is urging people to sign one specific petition (not several) more than once, b) why they don't have a link explaining where the funds are going and how they are/will be used, and c) why people interested in joining the campaign have to opt out of being added to a political party database.


Curious, given the local MP, leader of WHBC and his wife live / represent the BP area that it’s taking so long to get a simple reply to a straightforward questions.

[On a certain forum this comment would trigger a response that I’m negative / sad / muck raking / spitting bile – or what appears to be their idea of the ultimate insult: a Labour supporter. Or there’ll be someone making a disturbance outside my house - again]
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 29, 2012, 02:52:58 pm
Curious, given the local MP, leader of WHBC and his wife live / represent the BP area that it’s taking so long to get a simple reply to a straightforward questions.

Agreed, strange.

[On a certain forum this comment would trigger a response that I’m negative / sad / muck raking / spitting bile – or what appears to be their idea of the ultimate insult: a Labour supporter. Or there’ll be someone making a disturbance outside my house - again]

You are safe, and welcome, here, Trekbat.

 :)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on July 29, 2012, 07:28:23 pm
Thank you - that's very kind of you.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on July 30, 2012, 05:19:53 am
I have invited Veolia to attend the next meeting of the Welham Green Residents Associations meeting on September 4th
at North Mymms Social Clup starting at 7.30 pm.
Perhaps if they attend they will be able to enlighten us all on their leaflet which explains nothing
. It would also be nice if they could attempt to put things in laymans terms for those of us who find it difficult to work out the abreviations the seem to be frequently using

Thank you Peter. It seems likely they will decline but should they accept your invitation would the meeting be open to the public?


The meeting is  a general meeting of the Welham Green Residents Association.
It will be covering most aspects of topics to do with North Mymms.
All are welcome but we do need to get some idea of numbers who will be attending so if you wish to join us with your friends or interested parties you will be very welcome
Peter Inci

(Edited to fix quote box)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: EvieMay on July 31, 2012, 12:38:28 am
I have invited Veolia to attend the next meeting of the Welham Green Residents Associations meeting on September 4th
at North Mymms Social Clup starting at 7.30 pm.
Perhaps if they attend they will be able to enlighten us all on their leaflet which explains nothing
. It would also be nice if they could attempt to put things in laymans terms for those of us who find it difficult to work out the abreviations the seem to be frequently using

Thank you Peter. It seems likely they will decline but should they accept your invitation would the meeting be open to the public?


The meeting is  a general meeting of the Welham Green Residents Association.
It will be covering most aspects of topics to do with North Mymms.
All are welcome but we do need to get some idea of numbers who will be attending so if you wish to join us with your friends or interested parties you will be very welcome
Peter Inci

(Edited to fix quote box)

Thanks for the reply Peter, please keep us updated regarding Veolia's response to your invitation.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on July 31, 2012, 10:19:59 am
CAMPAIGN AGAINST AN INCINERATOR AT NEW BARNFIELD
UPDATE July 28 2012

DATES FOR YOUR DIARY
Please try to come to one of these meetings:-

1. Tuesday September 4th  7.30 p.m.
at North Mymms Social Club (opposite Sibthorpe Arms in Station Road, Welham Green)
MEETING OF WELHAM GREEN RESIDENTS’ ASSOCIATION
Latest news about the anti-incinerator campaign
will be outlined by members of Hatfield Against Incineration committee
– Paul Zukowskyj, Cathy Roe and Simon Archer.

2. Wednesday September 12th 7.30 p.m.
At Jimmy Mac’s, High View (Hilltop), South Hatfield.
(At top of Bishop’s Rise – go across the road behind the row of shops)
PUBLIC MEETING CALLED BY HATFIELD AGAINST INCINERATION
Latest news about the anti-incinerator campaign
Will be outlined by members of Hatfield Against Incineration committee
- Paul Zukowskyj, Cathy Roe and Simon Archer.

…………………………………………………………………………………………...
THE CURRENT SITUATION

1. VEOLIA’S PLANNING APPLICATION

A. CONSULTATIONS UP TO JULY 2012
i. Dec 2011.Veolia submitted a Planning Application to Herts County Council
to build an incinerator at New Barnfield
Jan 2012. 6000 objections were sent to Herts CC,
including many from important organisations.

ii. May-June 2012. Veolia submitted some further information
(mainly about the traffic and the visual impact, especially on Southfield School, plus a slightly revised Alterative Sites Assessment).
Individuals and organisations made further objections.

iii. June-July 2012. Veolia submitted another set of further information
(about the impact on heritage sites such as Hatfield House, North Mymms House, and Gobions Folly Arch, and about the visibility of the plume of emissions).
Individuals and organisations made further objections.

B.  MEETING OF DEVELOPMENT AND CONTROL COMMITTEE OF HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL
Veolia’s Planning Application has to be decided on by this committee.
The committee has a meeting on Sept 25th 2012, at which the planning application might be on the agenda.
However, the planning application might not be on the agenda until a later meeting.

C. GOVT. DEPT. OF COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT
If Herts CC’s D&C committee do decide to give Planning Permission for the incinerator at New Barnfield, this decision, and all the paperwork, must be looked at by the Govt’s Dept of Communities and Local Government (Sec of State Eric Pickles).
This is because an incinerator at New Barnfield would be development in the Green Belt.
The Dept can accept, reject, or call a public enquiry.
(The Dept could “call in” the decision before HCC D&C meets, but it has not done so up to now.)



2. HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL’S WASTE CORE STRATEGY
AND WASTE SITES ALLOCATIONS DOCUMENT

A. HERTS CC’S OVERALL WASTE CORE STRATEGY
(plans for waste management in the whole county)
This was approved by an independent inspector July 2012, following a hearing in public in November 2011.
Changes were made to what Herts CC originally proposed.
e.g. The policy does not now give precedence to incineration,
and there are no references to the specific procurement of an incinerator at New Barnfield.

B. HERTS CC’S WASTE SITES ALLOCATIONS DOCUMENT
(This includes New Barnfield as a possible site for waste management, including “thermal treatment” i.e. incineration)
This document went out to public consultation Feb-March 2012.
2000 objections were made to the inclusion of New Barnfield as a waste site.
The document has still not been to a hearing in public, and therefore has definitely not been approved by an independent inspector.   
We say that this document should be approved before any decision is made on the Planning Application for an incinerator at New Barnfield.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………

FURTHER INFORMATION
ABOUT THE INCINERATOR PROPOSAL
AND THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST AN INCINERATOR AT NEW BARNFIELD
CAN BE FOUND ON THE  WEBSITE OF “HATFIELD AGAINST INCINERATION”.
Please look at the newsblog section for the latest information and documents.
www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)



Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 31, 2012, 11:17:22 am
DATES FOR YOUR DIARY
Please try to come to one of these meetings:-

Hi Cathy,

Welcome to the forum. Please consider adding these dates to the site's calendar by using the 'LINK TO CALENDAR' feature.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on July 31, 2012, 01:47:43 pm
Veolia has replied to my tweet (below).

I am afraid the brochure raises more questions and fails to answer existing concerns.  Perhaps they will offer answers here following this tweet.



Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on July 31, 2012, 06:21:41 pm
MANY OBJECTIONS TO VEOLIA’S PLANNING APPLICATION
HAVE BEEN MADE BY ORGANISATIONS

6000 objections to Veolia’s Planning Application were made in January,
and among these were objections from  many important organisations.
44 objections and/or requests for further information from organisations are listed on hertsdirect website.
Other important objections, such as those from Southfield School and Mitsubishi, are not listed there, but are available on HAI website.

Organisations objecting include:
•   WelwynHatfield Borough Council, Hatfield Town Council, and 5 Parish Councils;
•   Bodies concerned about heritage, including English Heritage, Gascoyne Cecil Estates, Garden History Society, Herts Gardens Trust;
•   Organisations concerned about environment and wildlife, including North Mymms Green Belt Society, Council for Preservation of Rural England, Herts & Middlesex Wildlife Trust, Herts Biological Records Centre, branches of Friends of the Earth and Transition Town;
•   Herts National Union of Teachers, concerned about Southfield School;
•   Local societies, including Welwyn Garden City, Potters Bar and Essendon Societies, and Old Hatfield Community Forum;
•   Organisations concerned about Rights of Way and access, including Ramblers and Herts Access Forum;
•   Local residents’ associations and sports clubs.
•   Even Environment Agency and Highways Agency expressed some concerns. 
At all stages of the Planning Application process, very detailed objections have been made by Hatfield Against Incineration.

There is also now a growing list of organisations who have responded to the Further Information (released by Veolia in May and in June) saying that their objections are strengthened by the new material. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Colin Goff on August 02, 2012, 04:05:58 pm
Re the Resident Association Meeting. A quickie in case anyone gets their knickers in a twist. The North Mymms Social Club is a "members" club and as such any non members must be "signed in". The Club will be open from 17:30 so I'd suggest you arrive early to avoid the queue at the door.
Normal guest fees will be waived for the evening.
Otherwise, we'll be pleased to see everyone. :)
Colin Goff. Chairman.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on August 03, 2012, 10:44:21 am
Re the Resident Association Meeting. A quickie in case anyone gets their knickers in a twist. The North Mymms Social Club is a "members" club and as such any non members must be "signed in". The Club will be open from 17:30 so I'd suggest you arrive early to avoid the queue at the door.
Normal guest fees will be waived for the evening.
Otherwise, we'll be pleased to see everyone. :)
Colin Goff. Chairman.
Thanks for the clarification Colin,
Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on August 03, 2012, 10:51:39 am
This is an e mail i have sent to veolia to which to date i have received no reply.
    Veolia,
You are cordially invited to attend a meeting we are holding on September 4th 2012 at Noth Mymms Social Club,
Station Road Welham Green, Herts, the meeting will start at 7.30 pm.
It will be a full member and public meeting where perhaps you  could answer questions and hopefully allay some fears on the proposed incinerator.
I look forward to your early response.
Yours Faithfully
Peter Wrighton (Vice Chairman).
If i do get a response i will post it
Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 03, 2012, 11:32:04 am
If i do get a response i will post it

Hi Peter, if the response is a standard generic answer that would be fine, but if it is a personal reply to you then you would really need to ask their permission to post it here,or at least inform them that you are doing so.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 03, 2012, 06:57:43 pm
MEETING OF HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL DEVELOPMENT AND CONTROL COMMITTEE
We now know that the September meeting of this committee will NOT discuss the Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield.
There will be a special meeting, not on one of the already-scheduled dates for the D&C committee, and the special meeting will probably be over two days.
This meeting could be in October - but it could be later.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 03, 2012, 07:41:11 pm
MEETING OF HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL DEVELOPMENT AND CONTROL COMMITTEE
We now know that the September meeting of this committee will NOT discuss the Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield.
There will be a special meeting, not on one of the already-scheduled dates for the D&C committee, and the special meeting will probably be over two days.
This meeting could be in October - but it could be later.

Hi Cathy, thanks for that info. What do you, or any of those following this saga, read into this?

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 04, 2012, 09:51:46 pm
In answer to "What do you read into this?"
The Planning Application process is taking quite a long time, but this is not surprising to us at HAI.
The two sets of further information supplied by Veolia, and the two periods of public consultation on those sets of  information, have taken some time.
HCC have to write a summary report of all the key points submitted by objectors, before the matter goes to the HCC D&C committee - and this will take time.
Also, if HCC insist, as they should, that Veolia supply all the information that has now been requested by objectors but still not supplied, and then consult on that information, then this will take more time.
So the D&C committee that will determine the Planning Application could be October, or could be much later.
An example of information requested by objectors but not yet supplied is photomontages of the views from and setting of heritage sites without the summer leaves on the trees.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 05, 2012, 12:21:12 pm
Some other incinerator news:

"Work is set to begin at the site of a £117m waste-to-energy incinerator in Cornwall." - 3 August 2012 Last updated at 14:19
"After years of legal action the work, which includes setting up noise monitoring stations for the St Dennis incinerator, starts on Monday. A group opposing the incinerator were refused permission to appeal against the Court of Appeal's decision to reinstate the planning permission.

The plant was given final clearance at the Court of Appeal in March.

The St Dennis branch of Cornwall Waste Forum continues to challenge the ruling which upheld the government's decision to grant planning permission.

The Supreme Court refused an application for permission to appeal in July."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19109933 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19109933)

[Cornwall County Council under no overall control but Conservative majority party. However, initial incinerator decision appears to have been taken when under LibDem control
https://democracy.cornwall.gov.uk/mgCommitteeDetails.aspx?ID=584 (https://democracy.cornwall.gov.uk/mgCommitteeDetails.aspx?ID=584)  ]


More info on legal process / saga
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-wins-cornwall-incinerator-ruling-7600021.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-wins-cornwall-incinerator-ruling-7600021.html)



A campaign group which is against plans to build a waste incinerator between Stroud and Gloucester has said the business case for it "has collapsed". - 3 August 2012 Last updated at 16:17
"The Conservative-run authority had estimated the incinerator would generate enough electricity to power 28,000 homes and save the council £150m over 25 years."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-19111150 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-19111150)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 06, 2012, 12:05:11 am
Stuart Pile, the Conservative HCC councillor for South Hatfield (also sat on the HCC panel which agreed the move of the Central Resources Library to WGC) but who lives on the airfield site (north west Hatfield) was seen delivering political party leaflets door to door in Hatfield last week.

The leaflets reportedly picture Cllr Pile on the HAI anti-incineration march / protest meeting (September 2011), which is rather odd given his performance on the issue - initially downplaying health fears about the incinerator in the local press. He claims to have warned about the incinerator early on but no one I've met can recall him saying anything against it until HAI started putting pressure on him (and even then I've seen him bascially tell his HCC colleagues he was opposing it because he had to). While his performance on Veolia's Community Engagement Group led to him being asked whether he was representing HCC or his Hatfield constituents. And from what I hear he has not helped in delivering HAI leaflets door to door (although now having been caught leaflet-handed that may change).

It seems local politicians turn up at events to get their picture taken for the tame press / political leaflets and then claim anything they like in their propaganda.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 06, 2012, 06:59:05 am
It seems local politicians turn up at events to get their picture taken for the tame press / political leaflets and then claim anything they like in their propaganda.

 :o  Oh no, surely not! :o 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 06, 2012, 10:09:03 am
ENGLISH HERITAGE OBJECTS TO NEW BARNFIELD INCINERATOR PLAN

English Heritage is one of well over forty organisations that have now objected to Veolia’s plans to build a waste incinerator at New Barnfield.
English Heritage have recommended to Herts County Council that the planning application should be refused because “the cumulative effect on Hatfield House and the wider historic environment of Welwyn Hatfield would cause substantial harm”.
The incinerator would be visible from many heritage assets. English Heritage object to the impact on the setting of Hatfield House, including the Old Palace, Park and West Gardens. They also object to the impact on the grade 1 listed house of North Mymms Park, to the visibility of the flues and plume from Brocket Hall, and to the fact that the flues and part of the building would be seen through Gobions Folly Arch.
Public Consultations were held on Veolia’s planning application last January, and on further information supplied by Veolia in May and in June. Over 6000 objections have been submitted.
English Heritage is just one of many important organisations which have sent objections. Heritage is also a particular concern of objectors Gascoyne Cecil Estates, The Garden History Society and Herts Garden Trust.
Organisations concerned about Green Belt, environment and wildlife are also among the objectors. These include North Mymms Green Belt Society, Council for Preservation of Rural England, Herts and Middlesex Wildlife Trust, and branches of Friends of the Earth.
Herts National Union of Teachers, as well as the Governors of Southfield School, have objected because of the impact on this school for children with special needs.
There are also concerns about Rights of Way and cycling routes, voiced by Ramblers and Herts Access Forum.
 Other objectors include Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, Hatfield Town Council and five parish councils, plus numerous local societies, residents’ associations and sports clubs.
       Local campaigning group Hatfield Against Incineration have sent in detailed objections at every stage of the process. The objections have been supported financially by the New Barnfield Action Fund, who have also sent in detailed objections.
HAI campaigner Paul Zukowskyj commented “HAI are extremely grateful Hatfield House Estate and English Heritage have objected so strenuously. It’s another nail in the coffin of this absurd plan. Given the record-breaking number of objections and the sheer weight of evidence that this plan has no future, I find it utterly unbelievable HCC are still convinced this is what Hertfordshire needs. It needs it like a hole in the head!”
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 06, 2012, 04:34:38 pm
And yet millions in taxpayers' funds and goodness knows how much of council staff and councillors' (HCC, WHBC, HTC, NMPC...) time continues to be poured into this fundamental flawed and poorly thought through scheme - at a time when evidently there's no money for streetlighting.

Incidentally, since last week, someone (presumably an official contractor) has been carrying out what appears to be a ground stability investigation at New Barnfield.

PS
The strange script message has returned.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on August 07, 2012, 07:12:50 am
This is an e mail i have sent to veolia to which to date i have received no reply.
    Veolia,
You are cordially invited to attend a meeting we are holding on September 4th 2012 at Noth Mymms Social Club,
Station Road Welham Green, Herts, the meeting will start at 7.30 pm.
It will be a full member and public meeting where perhaps you  could answer questions and hopefully allay some fears on the proposed incinerator.
I look forward to your early response.
Yours Faithfully
Peter Wrighton (Vice Chairman).
If i do get a response i will post it
Peter Inci
have received a reply from Veoilia and i am seeking there permission to publish it.
Watch this space.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: ADM on August 07, 2012, 09:49:02 am
If i do get a response i will post it

Hi Peter, if the response is a standard generic answer that would be fine, but if it is a personal reply to you then you would really need to ask their permission to post it here,or at least inform them that you are doing so.

David

If someone sends me a letter, I can share it with who I like.  Why should I chase after their permission?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on August 07, 2012, 09:54:36 am
If someone sends me a letter, I can share it with who I like.  Why should I chase after their permission?

Agreed, unless the letter explicitly states it is private or confidential then it's up to you if you wish to share it.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 07, 2012, 11:07:16 am
If someone sends me a letter, I can share it with who I like.  Why should I chase after their permission?

Hi ADM, you don't have to, but official replies might have wording that tries to restrict further publication of the material. It's just worth checking. Emails sent from companies often have conditions regarding the reuse or publication of the material. If I got a reply from a company I would check for any legal restrictions first.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on August 07, 2012, 08:13:08 pm
If i do get a response i will post it

Hi Peter, if the response is a standard generic answer that would be fine, but if it is a personal reply to you then you would really need to ask their permission to post it here,or at least inform them that you are doing so.

David

If someone sends me a letter, I can share it with who I like.  Why should I chase after their permission?
Can i make perfectly clear that the remark posted about if i get a letter i will tell who i like was not made by me.
If someone is trying to discredit my integrity would you please  indentify your self
Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 07, 2012, 08:22:31 pm
Can i make perfectly clear that the remark posted about if i get a letter i will tell who i like was not made by me.
If someone is trying to discredit my integrity would you please  indentify your self
Peter Inci

Hi Peter, don't worry, it's clear from the thread and the quote boxes who posted what. The comments were posted by another forum user as a response to earlier posts in the thread. It's clear the comments were not made by you. Nobody is trying to discredit your integrity.
David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on August 08, 2012, 06:54:09 am
Can i make perfectly clear that the remark posted about if i get a letter i will tell who i like was not made by me.
If someone is trying to discredit my integrity would you please  indentify your self
Peter Inci

Hi Peter, don't worry, it's clear from the thread and the quote boxes who posted what. The comments were posted by another forum user as a response to earlier posts in the thread. It's clear the comments were not made by you. Nobody is trying to discredit your integrity.
David


Thank you David,
I have received a reply from Veoilia giving the all clear, here is there reply to my invitation

Quote
Dear Mr Wrighton

Thank you for your kind invitation to attend a public meeting on 4th September.

As you are aware our representatives attended a number of public meetings prior to submitting our planning application in November 2011, including those held by Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council and North Mymms Parish Council. These meetings, along with our own drop in sessions and representation on our Community Engagement Group, provided opportunities for Welham Green residents provide input and to find out more about our proposals.

Since submission, Hertfordshire County Council as the planning authority has been consulting on the application, seeking clarification and additional information where necessary. These public consultations have now concluded and the authority is expected to determine our application within the coming months.

With that in mind, we feel it would be inappropriate for us to speak publicly about the proposed development at this stage. There may however be opportunities to meet once the application has been determined.

In the meantime, should your members want to know more about Energy from Waste and the facilities Veolia operates, we are hosting a series of Open Days in 2012. There are opportunities to visit our facilities in Sheffield and London next month and in Portsmouth and Newhaven during October. To find out more visit the News page of our website or click here.

Kind Regards,

Victoria Cooper

Communications

Thats a no then,
Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on August 09, 2012, 06:16:52 pm
A further objection on behalf of Gascoyne Cecil Estates (Hatfield House) -

http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/ldaplanningresponsetofi.pdf

http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/ldaplanningresponsetofi.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/ldaplanningresponsetofi.pdf)

If the direct link, above, doesn't work the document is on the "Statutory Consultees and Interested Parties responses to Further Information" webpage at http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/furtherinformation/responsestofurtherinfo/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/furtherinformation/responsestofurtherinfo/) and is called "LDA Planning on behalf of Gasgoyne Cecil Estates".
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on August 10, 2012, 12:35:58 pm
A further objection on behalf of Gascoyne Cecil Estates (Hatfield House) -
http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/ldaplanningresponsetofi.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/ldaplanningresponsetofi.pdf)

Hi Ex Libris, I have embedded the .pdf document in your post above. To do this in the future you just need to use the .pdf icon just above the edit field where you write your message and put the link in between the opening and closing pieces of code.  Example below.

Code: [Select]
[pdf] add the link to the pdf here [/pdf]
David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 10, 2012, 12:58:41 pm
We have been asked some questions (by email and on Grant Shapps Forum) about the diggers on the old Howe Dell School site, and about what happened to the possible Judicial Review of the premature move of Southfield School to that site temporarily. So here is our answer:

HCC say that the diggers on the old Howe Dell Field are conducting an archaeological survey (the second one this year) as preparation for HCC’s planned building of temporary accommodation for Southfield School. HCC want to move Southfield School for a period of up to five years, during the building of the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield.
Unfortunately, HCC gave themselves planning permission to use the old Howe Dell site for a temporary building for Southfield School. (Hatfield against Incineration and the New Barnfield Trust opposed this application for planning permission at a meeting at County Hall).
The New Barnfield Trust and Hatfield against Incineration then considered asking for a Judicial Review of the premature temporary move of the school, as it was clearly bound up with the proposed building of an incinerator at New Barnfield (and as the site is unsuitable in other ways). 
Veolia’s Application for Planning Permission for the proposed incinerator has not yet been to a Planning Meeting of   HCC, and the application for that Planning Permission also has to be considered by the Secretary of State at the Dept of Communities and Local Govt. So of course the building of the incinerator is certainly not decided.
HAI and NB(AF)T wanted to assess whether a Judicial Review of the premature Southfield School move would be wise, so Paul Zukowskyj (Sec of NB(AF)T and committee member of HAI) personally donated the funds to pay for our solicitor to work with our barrister to assess the application and advise on the viability of the case.
On the advice of legal counsel we decided not to proceed. The advice was the case would not be certain to succeed, and the costs would likely mean the potential for a JR of the main application, were it needed, would be beyond the funds available. We decided, on balance, to ‘keep our powder dry’ for the main application.
There is a 90-day deadline for advising HCC of a JR, so we did not publicise our decision. We decided to leave HCC uncertain for three months.
Whilst not going to Judicial Review of the premature temporary Southfield School move is a disappointment, we do hope it goes to show that members of the campaigning groups are personally willing to finance and donate to the cause and that as recipients of community donations, we’re trying to be as responsible as possible and trying to ensure we get the best possible value for money from those donations.
HCC have told people living close to the incinerator site that they might start building the temporary school in October 2012.
We understand that HCC have told Southfield School that any move would not be before September 2013.
Of course we hope that the incinerator plan will be over-ruled and that Southfield School will not have to move at all.
Meanwhile, we hope the archaeologists will discover important historic remains – which could well be on this site near the Old Rectory.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 10, 2012, 01:03:48 pm
A little mistake in my posting above.
4th para from end. I mean HCC have told people living close to the old Howe Dell School site that they might start building the temporary school there in October 2012.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: milkmade on August 10, 2012, 01:46:37 pm
 :(Who thinks this has all been decided, in advance???:?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 10, 2012, 06:28:45 pm
To Milkmade
A majority (not all) of HCC have supported the plan for an incinerator up to now, and of course Veolia are proposing it.
But the incinerator is not decided until it has been determined by HCC Planning Committee, and approved by the Sec of State at the Dept for Communities and Local Government.
It is definitely not "decided" yet.
There is now massive opposition from many important organisations, as well as from thousands of individuals.
Please see our website www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk) for all the latest news of objectors, and for how to support the campaign.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 16, 2012, 09:55:39 am
Removals vans were at the New Barnfield site last week as one of the units based there was being relocated (they were outside The Park Education Support Centre).

Meanwhile, they seem to be undertaking a fairly major archaelogical dig on the field where they have planning permission to 'temporarily' move Southfield School - around a 1-2 feet of topsoil has been cleared from over half the field.

A poster on Shapps forum has pointed out that an English Heritage objection to a development in WGC was apparently ignored by local planners.
http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,8571.0.html (http://www.shapps.com/forum/index.php/topic,8571.0.html)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on August 16, 2012, 11:37:34 am
There were diggers on the New Barnfield site yesterday - looked as if they were soil testing?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 16, 2012, 12:37:39 pm
Yes, the diggers on the old Howe Dell School field are doing an archaelogical survey.
The planning permission that HCC have granted themselves is for a temporary school on the old Howe Dell school site, for the Southfield School children during the building on an incinerator. But of course an incinerator at New Barnfield has not yet been decided, as the planning application has to go to the HCC Development Control Committee, and to the Govt Dept of Communities and Local Govt.


Yes, the hole-boring at New Barnfield is soil testing, which we think is to test land stability. (Land instability is a problem HAI have included in our Planning Objection).

 These two activities could find evidence support our case not to move Southfield School and not to build an incinerator.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 16, 2012, 11:51:12 pm
These two activities could find evidence support our case not to move Southfield School and not to build an incinerator.

Hopefully, they will. However, if they don't it strengthens the hand of the incinerator champions (Veolia and HCC - incidentally, Cllr Stuart Pile was seen delivering leaflets on a second day in South Hatfield).

I think the signs that Hatfield House is entering the fray with their own expert report is probably a greater cause for optimism.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on August 22, 2012, 09:39:48 am
According to someone who says they spoke to the people on the dig, while there are signs of ancient activity there are no substantial remains that would require conservation (he plans to do an item for the Hatfield Review so I won't say any more).

I suspect that even if the school move doesn't take place HCC plans to sell off the site (which would explain why this playing field has been fenced off for so long).
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on August 24, 2012, 02:02:59 pm
ANTI-INCINERATOR PUBLIC MEETINGS THIS SEPTEMBER
WILL STEP UP THE CAMPAIGN

Campaigners against the proposed 380,000 tonnes per year incinerator at New Barnfield will be speaking at two public meetings this September.

The campaigners are stepping up the campaign in preparation for a meeting of Herts County Council’s Development Control Committee which will make a judgement on Veolia’s Planning Application.  This HCC meeting could be this October, possibly Oct 24th and 25th.

On Tuesday September 4th anti-incinerator speakers will address a meeting called by Welham Green Residents’Association. This meeting will be at 7.30 in the North Mymms Social Club in Station Road, Welham Green, and is open to non members.

On Wednesday Sept 12th the speakers will address a public meeting called by Hatfield Against Incineration. This meeting will be at 7.30 in the Jim McDonald Centre in McDonald Court, High View, South Hatfield.

The aim of the Hatfield Against Incineration speakers at the two meetings is to outline the next anti-incinerator activities, including residents assembling outside County Hall and attending the Planning Committee Meeting when they discuss Veolia’s incinerator application. 

The speakers will also update the public on information recently supplied by Veolia. Information now released includes:- evidence of  the massive visual impact on heritage sites, including Hatfield House; the 4350% increase in HGV traffic that would go immediately past Southfield School for children with special needs between 10 and 11 each morning; and the acid deposits of up to 177% of the recommended maximum that would fall on local Nature Reserves and Wildlife Sites such as Oxleys Wood. Residents concerned about this information can send comments to New Barnfield Planning at County Hall. 

Simon Archer, Chair of Hatfield Against Incineration, said,“ This damaging incinerator plan is by no means a done deal. It does not have planning permission.
There were 6000 objections to Veolia’s Planning Application, which is more than double the objections to any previous Hertfordshire planning application. There are objections from well over from 40 organisations. If the County Councillors on the Development Control Committee ignore all this opposition, it is highly likely that the Department of Communities and Local Government will over-rule them”. 

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on August 24, 2012, 02:21:40 pm
ANTI-INCINERATOR PUBLIC MEETINGS THIS SEPTEMBER
WILL STEP UP THE CAMPAIGN

On Tuesday September 4th anti-incinerator speakers will address a meeting called by Welham Green Residents’Association. This meeting will be at 7.30 in the North Mymms Social Club in Station Road, Welham Green, and is open to non members.

On Wednesday Sept 12th the speakers will address a public meeting called by Hatfield Against Incineration. This meeting will be at 7.30 in the Jim McDonald Centre in McDonald Court, High View, South Hatfield.


Maybe I'm being stupid but are the meetings in the morning or evening?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on August 24, 2012, 03:19:46 pm
Sorry 7.30 pm in both cases
Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on September 03, 2012, 07:33:04 am
Update in the WHT.

Incinerator ‘is not a done deal’ say Hatfield campaigners

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/incinerator_is_not_a_done_deal_say_hatfield_campaigners_1_1502234 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/incinerator_is_not_a_done_deal_say_hatfield_campaigners_1_1502234)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Colin Goff on September 03, 2012, 02:24:05 pm
It looks as if the meeting at the Social Club will be exceedingly well attended. Please be aware that parking is extremely limited so please come on foot or park in the Sibthorpe Car Park opposite.
A reminder - non members of the Club will be asked to sign in as a guest.
Looking forward to seeing loads of people. Regards, Colin.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on September 06, 2012, 09:49:06 pm
they would be losing my vote if they relax the protection of the Green Belt.
They will be losing MY vote if the incinerator gets planning permission - why would anyone vote for a County Council that could do this to its residents?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mr Green on September 06, 2012, 10:06:21 pm
They will be losing MY vote if the incinerator gets planning permission - why would anyone vote for a County Council that could do this to its residents?

Could not agree more. But,

How many of the Cllrs who will vote actually represent a ward directly affected by the incinerator?
Do the local Cllr's believe this could end their political careers?

Local Conservative Cllrs may tell us they oppose it, but if it goes ahead, I would do all I could to encourage my neighbours/friends to vote them out, irrespective of their claimed efforts.
This is their parties decision and they have (or should have) influence. If not, what use are they to me.
 


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on September 07, 2012, 06:35:55 pm
Veolia has submitted more “Further Information”. 

Links to it can be found on http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/furtherinformation/furtherinfojuly2012/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/planningapps/nbplanapp/furtherinformation/furtherinfojuly2012/) or you can access it by clicking on ‘Documents’ on the planning application website at https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724 (https://www.hertsdirect.org/ePlanningOPS/loadFullDetails.do?aplId=20724)

The Assessment of Operational Traffic Effects presents the predicted impacts on a number of roads in the vicinity of New Barnfield for

AM and PM peak hours, i.e., 0800 – 0900 hrs and 1700 – 1800 hrs
The period of greatest number of HGV movements, i.e., 1100 - 1200 hrs
The period of greatest change, i.e., 1000 - 1100 hrs

There are two short letters responding to comments made on behalf of Hatfield House and Southfield School.  A further letter is from URS to HCC Planning Dept. regarding Local Wildlife Sites.  The other three documents are assessments of the impacts on Local Wildlife Sites and are new information for the planning application.  This information was also submitted to the Environment Agency by Veolia in response to the EA’s Schedule 5 notice – see https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield (https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield)

Responses to this latest information should be made by 27th September.

A reminder: Hatfield Against Incineration is holding a public meeting at 7.30 on 12th September in the Jim McDonald Centre, High View, South Hatfield, AL10 8HR. 




Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on September 07, 2012, 09:33:40 pm
Message to LMS and nightlondon,

I have moved your two recent posts from the Shapps in trouble? (http://www.brookmans.com/forum/index.php/topic,3835.msg30370) thread and merged them here to keep all the incinerator related posts together and to try to prevent the other thread going off topic.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on September 10, 2012, 04:13:34 pm
Two possibly conflicting items in the planning press this last week.

Kings Lynn
The Secretary of State has called in an application for an energy-from-waste facility at King’s Lynn.  In June, members of Norfolk County Council’s planning committee accepted officer’s recommendations that permission should be granted to applicant Cory Wheelabrator, a consortium consisting of Cory Environmental and Wheelabrator Technologies.
 
However, a letter issued on behalf of Eric Pickles last week said the applicant for the Willows Power and Recycling Centre would be decided by the communities secretary as Pickles ‘considers that the proposal concerns matter that are of substantial regional and national controversy.
 
In a statement, John Boldon from the consortium said the firms were disappointed by the decision

2. Waste plant need is found compelling and urgent

A non-hazardous waste incinerator and energy recovery facility in Worcestershire has been approved by the secretary of state following a call-in inquiry, after he concluded that its impact on environmental assets and landscape character would not cause harm and it is unlikely to adversary affect the conservation status of the local newt population.

The secretary of state noted that the plant would deliver 13.5MW of electricity to the grid that would otherwise be generated by the combustion of fossil fuels and that the facility could save some 53,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions compared to landfill disposal.

He held that energy from waste offers considerable climate change benefits compared with landfill and these were encompassed by the plan. Its combined heat and power potential was also a positive factor to be weighed in the balance, he remarked. He identified no significant conflict with the National Planning Policy Framework in respect of climate change.

The parties agreed that the proposal was inappropriate development in the green belt. However, the site was located within the built-up area of an extensive industrial estate and had an extant planning permission for industrial development. The secretary of state agreed that it was very likely to be developed in some urban form in the future and that it had no direct green belt rote in checking unrestricted sprawl, preventing the merging of towns or safeguarding the countryside from encroachment.

He considered that the scheme would have a minimal effect on the openness of the green belt. He also found that there was a compelling and urgent need for the facility and there was no suitable alternative site in Herefordshire or Worcestershire. If the proposal failed, he reasoned, very substantial amounts of waste would continue to be landfilled
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on September 11, 2012, 06:56:11 pm
IF YOU DIDN’T MANAGE TO GET TO THE SEPT 4TH ANTI-INCINERATOR MEETING IN WELHAM GREEN,
PLEASE COME TO
 ANTI-INCINERATOR  PUBLIC MEETING
WEDNESDAY SEPT 12TH, 7.30 P.M.
at JIM MACDONALD CENTRE, HIGH VIEW (Hilltop), SOUTH HATFIELD

Speakers from HAI will outline the current situation and our case against an incinerator at New Barnfield.
The HCC Development Control Committee Meeting which will consider Veolia’s Planning Application could be on October 24th and 25th (provisional dates).  If HCC approve the Planning Application, it will be looked at by the Govt Department of Communities and Local Government, who can decide to reject it or hold a public enquiry.

Also:-

LATEST HCC CONSULTATION ON VEOLIA’S PLANNING APPLICATION TO BUILD AN INCINERATOR AT NEW BARNFIELD.

Consultation began Sept 5th 2012, ends Sept 26th 2012.
Please respond to newbarnfieldplanning@hcc.gov.uk
Or write to New Barnfield Planning at County Hall , Hertford.

Veolia and their consultants URS have supplied a third set of further information.
(The main Planning Application consultation ran up to Jan 2012 – with 6000 objections sent in - and this was followed by two further sets of information, which were consulted on in May-June and June-July 2012, with further objections being sent in).

The latest batch of further information includes:

1. TRAFFIC MOVEMENTS
The period of greatest change in the number of HGVs approaching the site would be 10 a.m to 11 a.m.
On the access road going in front of Southfield School
there would be  an increase from 25 to 52 vehicle movements
and from 0 to 44 HGV movements.
On the section of Travellers Lane leading to the site, there would be a change from 42 to 87  HGV movements.
On South Way there would be an increase from 81 to 123 HGV movements.

There are more figures for other hours of the day.

Please write or email newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk
to tell them that this volume of HGV traffic, going past a school for children with special needs, and past residents’ homes, is grounds for rejection of Veolia’s planning application, because of noise, fumes, danger, intimidation and fear, and traffic congestion.

2. WILDLIFE SITES
There would be increases in the deposition of chemicals well above the recommended maximum on a very large number of wildlife sites, local nature reserves and ancient woodland in a wide area surrounding the proposed incinerator. For example the total acid deposition at Oxleys Wood Nature Reserve (adjoining Millwards Recreation Ground in South Hatfield) would be 177% of the recommended maximum.
(Many of the wildlife sites already have high levels of chemicals deposited on them – this must not be made worse)

Please write or email newbarnfieldplanning@hertscc.gov.uk
to tell them that this threat to the wildlife in the area is grounds for rejection of Veolia’s planning application.

IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ALL THE FURTHER INFORMATION
Go into www.hertsdirect.org.uk (http://www.hertsdirect.org.uk)
Search for New Barnfield planning
Click on  “Further information” Then on “Further information Sept 2012”
Or, you can see the information in local public libraries, including New Barnfield Library Resources Centre (which is still open).

www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on September 14, 2012, 11:57:22 am
DECISION TIME IS NEARLY HERE
It was standing room only as hundreds of residents crowded into two public meetings called by campaigners against the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield last week. The meetings were held on Sept 4th and 12th, in Welham Green and Hatfield as part of the campaign of opposition to Veolia’s Planning Application.
October 24th and 25th are now the provisional dates chosen by Herts County Council for a meeting of their Development Control Committee at County Hall, Hertford, to judge Veolia’s Planning Application. Speakers at the two September meetings urged residents to go to the HCC meeting, assembling beforehand from 9.15 a.m. outside County Hall before attending the meeting in the public gallery.
Simon Archer, Cathy Roe and Paul Zukowskyj reviewed all the reasons to oppose the incinerator, including damage to the green belt, visual intrusion, damage to heritage, health impacts, climate change impacts and of course the awful impacts that the children with special needs would suffer in the special needs school that sits directly in the shadow of this proposed monstrosity.
A developing issue raised at the meetings was the revelation from the recent test bore holes made at the site. Problems to underground water flow could be caused by the need to “grout” large cavities discovered in the chalk which underlies the proposed site. It is possible that flooding would be caused, and that the Water End Swallow Holes, a Site of Special Scientific Interest, could be affected.
Paul Zukowskyj, HAI exec member commented “the discovery of these cavities and the need to fill them with hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of tons of concrete mean the water supply to the SSSI might be threatened. I’ve already been in touch with Natural England to ask them to review the situation and make sure Veolia’s plan won’t destroy a natural treasure in our back yard. I suspect it is very much threatened by their desire to dump their awful plant on Hatfield residents.”

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on September 14, 2012, 12:17:06 pm
A developing issue raised at the meetings was the revelation from the recent test bore holes made at the site. Problems to underground water flow could be caused by the need to “grout” large cavities discovered in the chalk which underlies the proposed site. It is possible that flooding would be caused, and that the Water End Swallow Holes, a Site of Special Scientific Interest, could be affected.
Paul Zukowskyj, HAI exec member commented “the discovery of these cavities and the need to fill them with hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of tons of concrete mean the water supply to the SSSI might be threatened.

This sounds like a significant development. There is not much chance of going back once the damage is done. How hard is this angle being pushed? 

I have tweeted in case others can add information. Please consider retweeting the message below if you feel it might help.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on September 14, 2012, 01:48:56 pm

A developing issue raised at the meetings was the revelation from the recent test bore holes made at the site. Problems to underground water flow could be caused by the need to “grout” large cavities discovered in the chalk which underlies the proposed site. It is possible that flooding would be caused, and that the Water End Swallow Holes, a Site of Special Scientific Interest, could be affected.
Paul Zukowskyj, HAI exec member commented “the discovery of these cavities and the need to fill them with hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of tons of concrete mean the water supply to the SSSI might be threatened. I’ve already been in touch with Natural England to ask them to review the situation and make sure Veolia’s plan won’t destroy a natural treasure in our back yard. I suspect it is very much threatened by their desire to dump their awful plant on Hatfield residents.”

The water supply to the Water End Swallow Holes is actually the Mimmshall Brook which will not be affected by these works.
However, more importantly the water that drains from the Swallow Holes and actually travels underground to the River Lea may well be affected and with reduced capacity could well exacerbate the very real prospect of flooding to properties at Water End.
This is something that the Environment Agency should be made aware of.
 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on September 14, 2012, 02:16:57 pm
There is some interesting reading online if you search Hertfordshire + boreholes + aquifers.  Just two documents embedded below with extracts copied that indicate the spread of damage through the contamination of the water supply.

Quote
The chalk aquifer in Hertfordshire is particularly susceptible to activities at the surface which may cause pollution to move rapidly and extensively along well developed fractures in the Chalk. There is a need to carefully regulate all potentially polluting activities and to build levels of protection and control any accidental release.
From page 21 in this, http://www.herts-aptc.gov.uk/docs/TheEnvironmentinHertfordshire.pdf (http://www.herts-aptc.gov.uk/docs/TheEnvironmentinHertfordshire.pdf), embedded below.

http://www.herts-aptc.gov.uk/docs/TheEnvironmentinHertfordshire.pdf

Also from page 21 in this, http://www.herts-aptc.gov.uk/docs/TheEnvironmentinHertfordshire.pdf (http://www.herts-aptc.gov.uk/docs/TheEnvironmentinHertfordshire.pdf), embedded below.

Quote
Bromate and Bromide groundwater contamination from a former chemical works site in Sandridge (near St.Albans) is the largest contaminant plume in the UK rendering around 50km² of the chalk aquifer unusable for water supply. The contamination has formed a plume which stretches eastwards for 20km to the Lee Valley. The contamination has caused the closure of public supply borehole in Hatfield and imposed constraints on the operation of around 10 other boreholes. The affected water companies are mitigating the effects by removing contaminated water from the aquifer – this is likely to be required until at least 2020. Legal action to cover remediation costs is ongoing.

This second document has lots of information about the risk to Hertfordshire's water supply.

http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/PDF/GEHO0205BMJR-E-E.pdf
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 15, 2012, 10:31:03 am
Apart from Kieran Thorpe (Labour Cllr, Hatfield South, WHBC), who is also an HAI committee member I didn't see any other Hatfield councillor (town, borough or county) at the meeting at the MacDonald Centre.

However, credit to Steven Markiewicz (Conservative cllr, Welwyn Garden City South, HCC) who did take the trouble to attend.
 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on September 18, 2012, 10:18:31 am
At Welham Green Balloon Day last Saturday the HAI stall gathered signatures objecting to the latest proposals.

If you did not sign on that occasion, you can sign a similar petition at Bradmore Green Newsagents which has been organised by the NM Green Belt Society. If more than 100 signatures are obtained it will enable the society to speak at the HCC Planning Meeting against the  Planning Application for the Incinerator.

Please sign this week otherwise you may be too late.  This petition is against the latest evidence produced by Veolia as stated above.  Objections to previous stages are obviously not objections to the latest evidence which is why you are being asked to object yet again.   
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 19, 2012, 09:59:57 am
Dovesdale waste incinerator application withdrawn by Scotgen - 18 September 2012

"A permit application for a waste incineration plant in Lanarkshire has been withdrawn, according to the Scottish Environment Protection Agency. 

Scotgen had wanted to build the plant at Dovesdale near Stonehouse but the plans attracted about 24,000 objections during a public consultation period.

Sepa said it had asked the firm 44 questions as part of the permit application process. But Scotgen failed to answer all of the questions and withdrew the application."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19644055 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19644055)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on September 23, 2012, 12:01:16 pm
Reminder (Reply #606 refers): closing date for objections to Veolia's third tranche of additional information is Wednesday, 26 September 2012.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on September 23, 2012, 06:18:53 pm
MEETING OF HCC DEVELOPMENT CONTROL COMMITTEE
TO DECIDE ON VEOLIA'S PLANNING APPLICATION FOR AN INCINERATOR AT NEW BARNFIELD
IS NOW CONFIRMED AS WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 24TH, WITH THURSDAY OCT 25TH IF NEEDED.
PLEASE PUT THIS DATE IN YOUR DIARIES.

IT'S DECISION TIME
On Wednesday Oct 24th, possibly continuing on Thursday Oct 25th, Herts County Council Development Control Committee will decide whether to reject Veolia's application to build at 380,000 tonnes per annum waste incinerator at New Barnfield, Hatfield.
You are invited to join us in seeing sense prevail.
Where and When?
County Hall, Pegs Lane, Hertford, SG13 8DQ
Please assemble outside at 9.15 a.m. on Wed 24th Oct ,outside County Hall, with your placards and banners.
Join us in the public gallery inside the Council Chamber at 10 a.m. (meeting starts), to hear what your county councillors have to say.
Please join us for the Thursday session too, if you can.
Buses 341, 641, 724 from Hatfield to Hertford. If you're coming by car please offer spare spaces.

If you are unable to join us you can still contact your County Councillors to tell them your views.
Members of the planning (development control)  committee will not be able to express their views in reply, for reasons of impartiality.

If the unlikely event that this application is approved, the decision will be referred to Government Department of Communities and Local Government, who can refuse the application.

www.hatfield (http://www.hatfield) -anti-incineration.co.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on September 24, 2012, 07:21:44 am
Hi Cathy,
Thanks for the information,
I have been kindly been given the use of three routemaster buses to ferry people to the meeting.
Pick up point Welham Green.
Fuul details to follow shortly
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on September 24, 2012, 07:36:59 pm
Hi Cathy,
Thanks for the information,
I have been kindly been given the use of three routemaster buses to ferry people to the meeting.
Pick up point Welham Green.
Full details to follow shortly
As promised details for buses to County Hall Hertford October 24th .
Hi Peter

Further to our conversation, I confirm that we have 3 Routemaster buses - each holding 72 people.  We would have a pick up outside the Memorial Hall in Welham Green and then one at the first bus stop in Travellers Lane and then a final one outside Queensway House, Hatfield Town Centre then onto Hertford.

We would like people to meet at the Memorial Hall at 8.15am sharp so that we can get on our way to Hatfield and maybe giving them the time of pick up of 8.30am  for the first Hatfield stop and then 8.35/8.40am at Queensway.  We can stay at Hertford Town Hall until 1pm if needed and will then return.  If anyone wants to go earlier, they would have to make their own way back.  We would do the say drop off's!

Obviously, we would like to know numbers asap as we have to book our drivers for this.  I also confirm that we can carry banners for people and also we can stick posters in all the windows using blu tack.

Kind regards,

Jennie
for Routemaster HIre Ltd.
Peter Inci
Would anyone who wants to go on the buses please e mail me via Brookmans Park Web with there details or pop into the shop (Incidentals ) 39 Dellsome Lane, Welham Green . ASAP please as we need to know numbers etc
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on September 25, 2012, 08:43:43 am
FREE BUSES TO HCC INCINERATOR DECISION MEETING
ON  WEDNESDAY  OCTOBER 24TH

Buses have now been arranged
to go to County Hall, Pegs Lane,  Hertford, SG13 8DQ on October 24th
so that people can meet outside at 9.15 a.m. with placards and banners
and then go into the public gallery of the council chamber
for the Development Control Committee Meeting, which starts at 10 a.m.

Buses will go from:
1. Memorial Hall, Welham Green 8.15 a.m.
2. Stop in Travellers Lane near South Way roundabout, opposite Millwards estate, at 8.30 a.m.
3. Stop outside Gracemead House in Town Centre, Hatfield. 8.35 a.m.

Buses will return from County Hall at 1 p.m. with the same stops for dropping-off.
(If you want to leave earlier or later, you will need to use public transport or arrange a lift in a car.)

TO BOOK A PLACE ON A FREE BUS, PLEASE CONTACT PETER ON 07957/925669 AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Alternatively, there are public buses between Hatfield and Hertford:
341, 641 and 724.

If you are coming by car, please offer spare places.
There is limited parking at County Hall. You may need to park in the streets opposite, or some way away.

Many thanks to those who are donating and organising these bus journeys.

www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on September 25, 2012, 09:57:27 am
CORRECTION RE BOOKING PLACE ON BUS
please contact 01707/276066
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on September 25, 2012, 11:28:59 am
Although if people are cominf from PB, they might find it easier getting the 242 to Cuffley and then the train as another alternative, Just a suggestion
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 07, 2012, 09:07:02 am
CORRECTION RE BOOKING PLACE ON BUS
please contact 01707/276066
I must say i am very sad about the poor response so far to our offer of free transport to the planning meeting on 24th October.
Is everybody giving up or are we going to stand together as we British have always done in times of trouble in the past.
We have 216 places to fill and i wan't to see full buses to show how much we all care about having our lives and the future of our children and future generations ruined by this toxic monstor on our doorstep.
So lets get these buses filled and show our spirit and determination to stop the incinerator
Just do it
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 10, 2012, 04:38:11 pm

FREE BUSES TO COUNTY HALL ON WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 24TH
IT IS ESSENTIAL TO BOOK A BUS PLACE IN ADVANCE

Pick-up places now are:
Welham Green Memorial Hall 8.15 a.m
Top of Travellers Lane (opposite Millwards estate) 8.30
Harrier pub at High View (Hilltop)South Hatfield 8.35
Market Place, Hatfield Town Centre  8.40

Return from County Hall at 1 p.m.
If you want to leave earlier or later (as the meeting may well go on past 1 p.m.), please make your own way back. Public buses run from outside County Hall, Hertford, to Hatfield.

SO BOOK YOUR FREE BUS PLACE NOW. PHONE 01707/276066
info@routemasterhire.com
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on October 10, 2012, 06:43:03 pm
A flyer dropped on our doorstep today. Embedded below.

http://www.brookmans.com/news/october12/incinerator.PDF
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 11, 2012, 08:32:34 pm
A flyer dropped on our doorstep today. Embedded below.

http://www.brookmans.com/news/october12/incinerator.PDF
Further to the flyer re planning meeting 24th October.
There is a meeting at New Barnfield this Saturday 13th October at  to publicise your opposition to the incinerator.
All are welcome, bring the children to as its ther future we are trying to protect.
Bring your banners and posters as Welwyn and Hatfield Times will be in attendance for a photo shoot to use in the article they
are publishing next week
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on October 11, 2012, 09:14:18 pm
There is a meeting at New Barnfield this Saturday 13th October at  to publicise your opposition to the incinerator.

The meeting is at 1.00 pm outside the gates of the New Barnfield site.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 11, 2012, 09:46:36 pm
PHOTO-SHOOT
SATURDAY OCTOBER 13TH 1.00 p.m. outside the New Barnfield Site

PLEASE COME
TO PUBLICISE YOUR OPPOSITION TO AN INCINERATOR

Welwyn Hatfield Times will be there
to take a photo of objectors, for Wednesday Oct 17th edition of the paper
which will be publicising
the HCC Development Control Decision Meeting
which will be on WEDNESDAY OCT 24TH

To find New Barnfield. It is at the far end of South Hatfield.
From the South Way/Travellers Lane roundabout with the curly bridge,
go up the section of Travellers Lane which is next to Mitsubishi’s offices( and where there is a NO INCINERATOR banner on the railings).

AND REMEMBER TO BOOK YOUR PLACE ON THE BUSES
TO COUNTY HALL ON OCTOBER 24TH
for the HCC Development Control Decision Meeting
on the Proposed Incinerator at New Barnfield.
O1707/276066  info@routemasterhire.com
Buses will pick up Welham Green Memorial Hall 8.15 a.m.
Top of Travellers Lane opposite Millwards Estate 8.30
Harrier Pub at High View (Hilltop) South Hatfield 8.35
Market Place, Hatfield Town Centre 8.40
(Return at 1 p.m. or please make your own arrangements if you want to leave earlier or later. Public buses run from County Hall to Hatfield).
The meeting is 10 a.m., and we are assembling outside County Hall at 9.15 a.m. before going in to the public gallery for the meeting.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on October 12, 2012, 04:17:21 pm
The Agenda and associated documents, including the Officer's report, for the Development Control Committee meeting to be held on Wednesday, 24th October at 10.00 am are available on the Hertsdirect website at http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/devcontrolcomm/17607951/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/devcontrolcomm/17607951/)

The Welwyn Hatfield Times is carrying a short item - http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hated_hatfield_incinerator_backed_by_officials_ahead_of_crunch_meeting_1_1654476 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hated_hatfield_incinerator_backed_by_officials_ahead_of_crunch_meeting_1_1654476)

If you are planning to attend the meeting, you will need to obtain a ticket!

"Please note that public interest in attending this meeting is very likely to exceed the capacity of the Council Chamber. Over-flow accommodation in an adjacent room has been arranged with an audio-link. Access to the Council Chamber and the over-flow accommodation is by ticket. Members of the public wishing to attend the meeting should contact Nicola Cahill on telephone no. (01992) 555554 or email nicola.cahill@hertfordshire.gov.uk."
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 14, 2012, 09:02:33 am
The Agenda and associated documents, including the Officer's report, for the Development Control Committee meeting to be held on Wednesday, 24th October at 10.00 am are available on the Hertsdirect website at http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/devcontrolcomm/17607951/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/devcontrolcomm/17607951/)

The Welwyn Hatfield Times is carrying a short item - http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hated_hatfield_incinerator_backed_by_officials_ahead_of_crunch_meeting_1_1654476 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hated_hatfield_incinerator_backed_by_officials_ahead_of_crunch_meeting_1_1654476)

If you are planning to attend the meeting, you will need to obtain a ticket!
Thanks for info 2 places booked

"Please note that public interest in attending this meeting is very likely to exceed the capacity of the Council Chamber. Over-flow accommodation in an adjacent room has been arranged with an audio-link. Access to the Council Chamber and the over-flow accommodation is by ticket. Members of the public wishing to attend the meeting should contact Nicola Cahill on telephone no. (01992) 555554 or email nicola.cahill@hertfordshire.gov.uk."
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 14, 2012, 09:09:28 am
PHOTO-SHOOT
SATURDAY OCTOBER 13TH 1.00 p.m. outside the New Barnfield Site

PLEASE COME
TO PUBLICISE YOUR OPPOSITION TO AN INCINERATOR

Welwyn Hatfield Times will be there
to take a photo of objectors, for Wednesday Oct 17th edition of the paper
which will be publicising
the HCC Development Control Decision Meeting

Photo shoot at New Barnfield was well attended by 100+ people one guy in chemical suit and mask, loads of banners and posters to be seen.
Check out next weeks edition of Welwyn & Hatfield times for full story and pictures.
Peter
which will be on WEDNESDAY OCT 24TH

To find New Barnfield. It is at the far end of South Hatfield.
From the South Way/Travellers Lane roundabout with the curly bridge,
go up the section of Travellers Lane which is next to Mitsubishi’s offices( and where there is a NO INCINERATOR banner on the railings).

AND REMEMBER TO BOOK YOUR PLACE ON THE BUSES
TO COUNTY HALL ON OCTOBER 24TH
for the HCC Development Control Decision Meeting
on the Proposed Incinerator at New Barnfield.
O1707/276066  info@routemasterhire.com
Buses will pick up Welham Green Memorial Hall 8.15 a.m.
Top of Travellers Lane opposite Millwards Estate 8.30
Harrier Pub at High View (Hilltop) South Hatfield 8.35
Market Place, Hatfield Town Centre 8.40
(Return at 1 p.m. or please make your own arrangements if you want to leave earlier or later. Public buses run from County Hall to Hatfield).
The meeting is 10 a.m., and we are assembling outside County Hall at 9.15 a.m. before going in to the public gallery for the meeting.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 14, 2012, 10:01:40 am
On October 12th, Herts County Council issued a report recommending that Planning Permission be given to Veolia. This is the Report that will be considered by HCC DC committee on Oct 24th.
Campaigners showed their anger and disgust at Herts County Council by gathering just outside the New Barnfield site on the following day.
Please see HAI's website for photographs.
The first photograph shows the entrance to the New Barnfield site on the left, and Southfield School for primary-aged children with special needs on the right.
In front of the protesters is the road along which all the HGVs going to and from the incinerator would travel. An example of the level of traffic is that between 10 and 11 a.m each day there would be 44 HGV movements, whereas now there are none.
Unbelievably, the report just issued by the Head of Spatial and Land Use Planning at Herts CC, while admitting that the HGV traffic would pass in front of the school, says "the impact would be limited to school hours" !!! Apparently this makes the proposal acceptable to HCC.
Contact members of the Development Control Committee and your own county councillor NOW!
And please book your place at County Hall and on the free buses for Oct 24th

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mermaid on October 15, 2012, 11:32:26 am
Thanks Cathy and Peter for all the organisation, we've booked for 3 of us   :)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 16, 2012, 09:23:45 am
HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL
WANT YOU TO BOOK PLACES
TO ATTEND THE MEETING OF DEVELOPMENT CONTROL COMMITTEE
 ON OCT 24TH

They ask you to contact Nicola Cahill
01992  555554
or nicola.cahill@hertfordshire.gov.uk

We urge you to book a place.
 
However, we do not consider this to be a positive approach by HCC to involving the public in seeing the decision-making process. HCC have given very short notice of the need to book places. People who don’t use or look at the internet won’t know they need to book a place.
(The HCC message about booking tickets is on www.hertsdirect.org (http://www.hertsdirect.org). It can be found under Council Meetings, Development Control Committee, Oct 24th, Agenda.)

PLEASE REMEMBER TO BOOK PLACES ON THE FREE BUSES

Phone 01707/276066
info@routemasterhire.com

Pick up points:
Welham Green Memorial Hall  8.15 a.m
Top of Travellers Lane, opposite Millwards Estate 8.30
Harrier Pub, High View (Hilltop), South Hatfield 8.35
Market Place, Hatfield Town Centre. 8.40

We aim to be outside County Hall at 9.15 a.m. Please bring banners and placards.
We will go into the public gallery for the meeting start at 10 a.m.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Alex on October 16, 2012, 09:40:32 am
Cathy,

thanks for what you ( and others) are doing re this, gerat deal of effort is being put in.

I'm unable to there on that day, thats a real shame as we need numbers.

Best of luck anyway, and hope that it goes well on the day and we get the right result!

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 19, 2012, 11:10:38 pm
Thanks Cathy and Peter for all the organisation, we've booked for 3 of us   :)
We have one bus full 72 people, lets fill another one now D Day - 5
Peter
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 23, 2012, 11:06:45 am
DECISION DAY IS TOMORROW!

The HCC Development Control Committee Meeting which will decide for or against Veolia’s Planning Application is tomorrow, WEDNESDAY OCT 24TH.
SO PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU ARE THERE!

WHAT’S HAPPENING TOMORROW

OBJECTORS WILL MEET OUTSIDE AT 9.15 a.m. for a short rally.
There will be a few short speeches by campaigners.
The press will be taking photographs, and radio will be talking to people.
Please bring banners and placards.
PLEASE COME AT 9.15  a.m.  FOR THE PROTEST, even if you cannot stay for the meeting.

THE PLANNING MEETING WILL START at 10 a.m.
HCC want you to book a ticket for the public gallery, or a ticket for the committee-room with audio link. Please book a ticket, and insist on your right to attend this meeting. (Phone Nicola Cahill 01992/555554
Nicola.cahill@hertfordshire.gov.uk)

THE STRUCTURE OF THE MEETING
Petitions will be presented by:
North Mymms Green Belt Society
Simon Archer of HAI on behalf of the petitions drawn-up by 4 local political parties

Speakers against the Planning Application will speak for 15 mins each.
Speakers are:
Kieran Thorpe, on behalf of the New Barnfield Trust
Cathy Roe, on behalf of Hatfield Against Incineration
Mick Bee, on behalf of Herts WithOut Waste
Mandy Perkins, on behalf of Welwyn/Hatfield Borough Council
Claire Taylor, on behalf of North Mymms Green Belt Society
Adrienne Nix, speaking as a resident who would be affected
Peter Clegg, on behalf of Gascoyne Cecil Estates (Hatfield House)

A Veolia speaker with speak for the Planning Application

A Herts CC Planning Officer will speak
He will take questions from county councillors.
The county councillors will then debate the issue.
There are 15 members of the Development Control Committee,
and some local county councillors will also be there.
Some county councillors will speak against the Planning Application.

PRACTICALITIES
The buses to County Hall have 4 pick-up points:
8.15 a.m Welham Green Memorial Hall
8.30. Top of Travellers Lane, opposite Millwards estate
8.35. Harrier Pub at Hilltop
8.40 Market Place, Hatfield
YOU MUST BOOK YOUR PLACE ON THE BUSES
Phone 01707/276066  info@routemasterhire.com

The buses will return at 1 p.m.
THE MEETING WILL GO ON INTO THE AFTERNOON
PLEASE STAY IF YOU CAN, AS THIS WILL MOST PROBABLY BE WHEN THE COUNCILLORS DEBATE AND VOTE.
There are public buses back to Hatfield, and there will be a few people in cars who may be able to offer lifts back. (341 bus at 16.20 & 17.07 from County Hall, or 641, 724 from Hertford town centre)

Lunchtime
No food facilities for us at County Hall, so please bring your lunch.
We will be able to use the ballroom, upstairs at County Hall.

AND REMEMBER, IF OUR COUNTY COUNCILLORS DO NOT SEE SENSE AND IF THEY ACCEPT THIS APPALLING INCINERATOR PROPOSAL,
THE DEPT OF COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVT WILL LOOK AT IT.
THEY COULD REJECT IT, OR THEY COULD CALL A PUBLIC HEARING.


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on October 24, 2012, 06:50:18 pm
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/incinerator_decision_day_application_is_approved_to_chants_of_shame_1_1668322 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/incinerator_decision_day_application_is_approved_to_chants_of_shame_1_1668322)

Another rung on the done deal ladder - incredible :(
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mermaid on October 25, 2012, 09:37:46 am
We thought all the speakers against the incinerator (including Welhat) were very good and made some excellent points. What we brought away from the meeting was that the County Councillors have bent and twisted their own rules in order to get the plan through, are working on out-of-date figures and have not done 'due diligence' on the Veolia figures. In fact, as the Chair of the committee said last night when interviewed on the BBC's News at Ten "I don't know much about incineration".

10 councillors voted for the plan and 4 against. You can bet that those 10 didn't want the incinerator in their their areas!!!

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 25, 2012, 11:10:20 am
Credit where credit is due - Cllr Mandy Perkins made a very good presentation on behalf of WHBC.

Unfortunately, as I think everyone familiar with the process so far would have suspected, the vote was on party lines with Labour and LibDem councillors opposing and Conservative ones (like Douris, who according to the documentation was representing Hatfield's Clare Berry) voted against.

Bill Storey, who like Clare Berry was also a member of a local council purportedly opposed to the incinerator had previously spoken and voted against a LibDem proposal to exclude New Barnfield on the grounds that it was next to a special needs school, was in the chamber but not a part of proceedings. Incidentally, among the others who spoke and voted down this proposal was David Lloyd - the Conservative candidate for Police Commissioner.

Hatfield's other HCC councillor (and earned over £30k last year from his HCC duties), Stuart Pile, whose name was on the papers, was not present - apparently his is on a cruise somewhere. Stuart Pile was also on the HCC library panel which saw fit to remove the CRL from Hatfield.

I hope voters will take the opportunity of next year's local elections to send all three of them on a permanent holiday.

------------------

The battle is not over - next step is it gets called in by Pickles (however, he has a chequered background on decisions and in one case overturned a decision by a local council NOT to have an incinerator).

If that fails then there is a judicial review (but likely to be Veolia counter legal action).

Probably the last line of defence are growing EU concerns about air quality (and it was EU pressure about landfill which brought about a decision to attempt to tackle the waste problem). It may be possible to fund air pollution monitoring stations in Hatfield and using their data force a closure of the plant.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 25, 2012, 04:27:18 pm
HUGE TURNOUT FOR INCINERATOR PLANNING MEETING
 AT COUNTY HALL

A huge and vocal crowd of objectors protested at County Hall yesterday (Oct 24) against the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield. They came despite HCC restricting access to the actual debate, and, after a rally outside, they packed not just the council chamber but also the extra committee room with audio link. HCC turned some away. Many arrived with great impact, in two Routemaster buses, covered with posters of protest.

The County Council’s decision was to grant permission. This was no great surprise to campaigners, as the County Council was judging its own plan. This was just one step in a long process, and the next step is to request a call-in  by the Department of Communities and Local Government, who can then reject it or call a full public inquiry. M.P.Grant Shapps has already asked for a call-in, and Hatfield against Incineration and the New Barnfield Trust are ready to submit a  detailed case.

It would have been best if the councillors had seen sense, but in many ways the day was a success for objectors.  The controversial nature of the proposal was clearly demonstrated by the huge turn-out, on a work-day, and by the determination and strength of argument of the two presenters of petitions, the seven speakers against the proposal, and those County Councillors who spoke and voted against the planning application.

Also, it was clear that Herts County Council cannot demonstrate their view that the harm that would be caused would be outweighed by very special circumstances.
They relied, as usual, on repeating that an incinerator is needed to reduce landfill.
They did not have any arguments to prove that an incinerator anywhere, let alone one of 380,000 tonnes per year size, on this specific site, is actually needed.

Clive Bennett presented a petition for the North Mymms Green Belt Society and Simon Archer presented four petitions drawn up by the local political parties. Kieran Thorpe, for New Barnfield Trust, outlined all the harm that would be caused by using this site. Cathy Roe, for Hatfield against Incineration, outlined some of the details of our case, such as  the flaws in Veolia’s Alternative Sites Assessment and the lack of data on carbon emissions. Mick Bee, of Herts Without Waste, showed that the incinerator would be far too large, even if it burned commercial and industrial waste as well as local authority collected waste. Claire Taylor, of NMGBS, spoke of the harm to the Green Belt, and Mandy Perkins, a councillor on  Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, spoke of the reasons for their strong opposition. Adrienne Nix, speaking as a local resident, spoke movingly of how it would affect her. Finally Peter Clegg, for Hatfield House, spoke of the impact on this grade 1 listed heritage asset, the lack of consultation, and the unsatisfactory ASA.

Liberal/Democrat and Labour County councillors on the committee spoke and voted against, with councillor Allan Witherick working particularly hard all afternoon to argue the case against.  Some Welwyn Hatfield Conservative County Councillors – Steve Markiewicz and Sara Johnston, spoke strongly against. Unfortunately the County Councillor for Hatfield South, Stuart Pile, was away and did not attend. He submitted a paper, but as he sent it to County councillors but not to the Planning Officer, it was not read out.

The Conservative councillors on the committee asked questions, but none of their questions really tackled the key issues. Some said in the debate that they were undecided. Then there were a couple of little softening amendments from the Conservatives about some sort of compensation being paid to the local community, and the hours of HGV deliveries starting at 7 a.m. instead of 5 a.m., and these tiny details were apparently enough for the Conservatives to decide the incinerator  was a good thing. The meeting was rushed to an end by the chair, and all the Conservatives on the committee then voted for it, after expressing the view that there was need for the proposed incinerator so all the drawbacks were over-ridden.

The meeting was a success for objectors in that our case was put, and neither Veolia nor HCC was able to refute it. They just brushed away key problems such as the impact on Hatfield House and Southfield School, the traffic and visual impact on residents, and points about procedure such as the flawed Alternative Sites Assessment, the lack of essential data on low-carbon energy, and the lack of consultation with English Heritage.

Some councillors made points which were factually incorrect and showed their lack of knowledge of the proposal, such as Philip Bibby saying the plot size used in the Green Belt would not increase, when it definitely would. Even the Planning Officers, Iain Leech and Brian Owen, could not supply all the information that was requested, but the councillors continued regardless. The prize for desperation in finding an argument for this dreadful proposal surely goes to councillor Terry Douris, who said that an incinerator next to Southfield School would be an opportunity for the children to learn about waste!

Congratulations must go to all the campaigners who contributed to the success of yesterday, whether by giving speeches, leafleting beforehand, providing free buses, making placards, making great efforts to be there, taking photos, talking to the press, radio and tv, and by applauding and heckling just enough to show feeling without disrupting the meeting.

Jack Radio, Heart Radio, BBC 3 Counties Radio, BBC London TV, and Welwyn Hatfield Times were all there, and many interviews were also done before and after the meeting. Thanks to all the reporters and photographers.

NOW ON TO THE NEXT STEP. 
WE WILL STOP THE INCINERATOR PLAN.



Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mr Green on October 25, 2012, 08:14:42 pm
Has anyone compiled a list of:

   (A) Cllr's and other notables, such as Grant Shapps, who are genuinely against the incinerator - (as opposed to people who pretend to be, rhymes with jackanory)
   (B) Those who are for it.

I would find this useful.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 26, 2012, 07:27:53 am
Has anyone compiled a list of:

   (A) Cllr's and other notables, such as Grant Shapps, who are genuinely against the incinerator - (as opposed to people who pretend to be, rhymes with jackanory)
   (B) Those who are for it.

I would find this useful.

I am compiing a list of the councilors who were on the committee which i will post today so you can e mail them with your own comments,
This will include the two members who were clearly asleep through part of the meeting, clearly overcome by the thought of the toxic fumes they are trying to promote to us.
The fight goes on, those who have up to now taken no active part in our campain must now join us to raise a greater voice against HCC to scrap this flawed and diabolical plan
A very passionate Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: PS on October 26, 2012, 08:05:37 am
Thank you Peter Inc

I had hoped to be at Wed's protest meeting this week but unfortunately planned meetings in London this were changed and I could not make it from overseas where I work.

However, I would be most grateful for this list - particularly the names of those who were NOT opposing the incinerator - as Trekbat says [I wish to ensure that my family, friends and myself have this list] to send them all on a permanent holiday when voting comes round. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 26, 2012, 08:23:57 am
 A list of the final 15 members of the DC committee is already on our website http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk) The vote went entirely on party lines, 11 Conservatives for , and the 3 Liberal/democrats and one Labour councillor against.

Local Conservatives for the Welwyn/Hatfield area (not on the committee, but attending the meeting in order to contribute to the debate) spoke against. These were Steve Markiewicz and Sara Johnston. Malcolm Cowan, a local Liberal Democrat, also attended to speak against. Also Paul Goggins and Martin Frearson,  Lib/dems for Abbots Langley St Albans attended and spoke against.
Stuart Pile , Conservative county councillor for Hatfield South (which includes Welham Green) was not there as he was abroad. He sent a statement to councillors, but it was not read out.
None of these councillors had a vote.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 27, 2012, 12:06:09 pm
Has anyone compiled a list of:

   (A) Cllr's and other notables, such as Grant Shapps, who are genuinely against the incinerator - (as opposed to people who pretend to be, rhymes with jackanory)
   (B) Those who are for it.

I would find this useful.

I'm not entirely convinced he is but hope I'm wrong on that - time will tell.

Apart from Clare Berry's proxy betrayal, it is also worth noting that one of the Conservative councillors speaking in favour cited support by the Herts Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

As has previously been pointed out, the person behind this is Herts Chamber of Commerce Chief Executive.

Tim Hutchings is a graduate of and visiting lecturer at the University of Hertfordshire; whose directorships include Hertfordshire Tourism & Leisure Partnership and Groundwork Trust (Hertfordshire) Limited.

Oh, and he lives in Hoddesdon, and he's a leading member of their Conservative Association.

Graduate of and Visiting Lecturer at University of Hertfordshire
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/timhutchings (http://uk.linkedin.com/in/timhutchings)


Tim is married and lives with his wife and family in Hoddesdon. Directorships include Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce & Industry; Hertfordshire Tourism & Leisure Partnership (Chair); and Groundwork Trust (Hertfordshire) Limited
http://www.national-training.com/events/conferences/eec2010/SpeakerProfileTimHutchins.php (http://www.national-training.com/events/conferences/eec2010/SpeakerProfileTimHutchins.php)


Broxbourne and Hoddesdon South Ward - Tim Hutchings
http://www.broxbourneconservatives.com/person/tim-hutchings (http://www.broxbourneconservatives.com/person/tim-hutchings)

[The UH role - or lack of it - even though they are/ were the town's largest employer (possibly overtaken by Ocado) is something else that I've mentioned before]


One Conservative councillor (might even be the same one) claimed to have done some research and that there was nothing to say Veolia were not suitable to run the incinerator safely.

Clearly his research didn't extend to the Veolia's Community Engagement Group minutes:

CEG Meeting 09.11.11 Point 2.1.1:
"over the past two years,there have been four [post meeting clarification: six] breaches of the half hour emissions limits at Veolia’s six Energy Recovery Facilities
(ERFs)"
http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Documents/Publications/Hertfordshire/CEG%20documents/CEG_Minutes_091111_final.pdf)


Veolia’s track record is further cause for concern with 5 HSE prosecutions and 22 enforcement notices.

HSE’s prosecutions database
http://www.hse.gov.uk/prosecutions/case/case_list.asp?ST=C&EO=LIKE&SN=F&SF=DN&SV=Veolia&x=23&y=10 (http://www.hse.gov.uk/prosecutions/case/case_list.asp?ST=C&EO=LIKE&SN=F&SF=DN&SV=Veolia&x=23&y=10)

HSE’s enforcement notices database
http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_list.asp?PN=3&ST=N&rdoNType=&NT=&SN=F&EO=LIKE&SF=RN&SV=veolia&SO=DNIS (http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_list.asp?PN=3&ST=N&rdoNType=&NT=&SN=F&EO=LIKE&SF=RN&SV=veolia&SO=DNIS)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 28, 2012, 08:48:52 am


Hi Peter,
 
 
 
Thank you very much for your email.  Yes I do think it would be a very good idea if you were to write to Eric Pickles on behalf of Welham Green Residents Association.  You should say that this is an issue of significant interest which stretches well beyond the local area. You should also point out that this is a large variation from green belt policy.  And that the incinerator was planned prior to the Core Waste Strategy having been agreed meaning that the process hasn’t been properly followed.
 
 
 
Please do copy me in.
 
 
 
Best wishes,
 
Grant

Please write to The Rt Hon Eric Pickles, House Of Commons,London,SW1A OAA.
Tell him of your concerns ie special needs school, health issues,wildlife,more intrusion onto greenbelt which is meant to be protected, the worry for future generations who will suffer from the emmisions belching from this toxic blot so near to us all
Please do not think a letter will not make any difference because it will, we cannot moan about it afterwards if we just sit there and let it happen.
Get your pen and paper out and write today.
Thank you all.
Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on October 28, 2012, 09:10:54 am
Hi Peter,

I am a bit confused by your message above. The quote you have included links to a post by Cathy but the content is not a quote from her post.

I am not sure I understand the context for the quote above.   Is it a copy of a private exchange between you and the local MP and, if so, have you cleared with him that it's okay to include this in a public forum?

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 28, 2012, 02:50:59 pm
Sorry once again for my post which is not following the correct procedure.
I was trying to include Cathy's post on what to do next but it with my post exceeded the max text allowed, so i deleted it.
As Grant has asked to be kept in the link i had presumed it would be in order to post it.
I have just e mailed him to double check that would be ok, but if you think i should wait for his reply could you withdraw my post.
Sorry just a passionate not  very good on computor person
Peter Inci
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 28, 2012, 09:43:24 pm

Requests for a Call-in had been made by Paul Zukowskyj, Sec of New Barnfield Trust, and by Grant Shapps, Chair of New Barnfield Trust, well before the Planning Meeting on Oct 24th.
Now that HCC have granted Planning Permission (subject to approval by the Sec of State)
an official, more detailed, request for a call-in will go to Dept of Communities and Local Government from New Barnfield Trust . (New Barnfield Trust is the umbrella fund-raising organisation of all the groups and organisations campaigning against the proposed incinerator.)  This detailed request will  probably be sent  tomorrow. Legal advice has been taken on what it says.
The key issues for a call-in are not exactly the same as the key issues in Planning Objections.
Please notice the points that Grant Shapps made in his quoted email above (which are not the same as the Planning issues mentioned by Peter).
We have been advised that there is no need for lots of people to write to request a Call-in, and that the issues raised  by people who do write in should be the relevant ones.

I hope this is useful information to readers of this website.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: peter.inci on October 29, 2012, 10:54:52 am

Requests for a Call-in had been made by Paul Zukowskyj, Sec of New Barnfield Trust, and by Grant Shapps, Chair of New Barnfield Trust, well before the Planning Meeting on Oct 24th.
Now that HCC have granted Planning Permission (subject to approval by the Sec of State)
an official, more detailed, request for a call-in will go to Dept of Communities and Local Government from New Barnfield Trust . (New Barnfield Trust is the umbrella fund-raising organisation of all the groups and organisations campaigning against the proposed incinerator.)  This detailed request will  probably be sent  tomorrow. Legal advice has been taken on what it says.
The key issues for a call-in are not exactly the same as the key issues in Planning Objections.
Please notice the points that Grant Shapps made in his quoted email above (which are not the same as the Planning issues mentioned by Peter).

Further to my post yesterday after speaking to Cathy i might have been a bit OTT with the letter proposal.
I still think people should write with ther personal observations how they feel about what is being done to our lovely village. and surrounding areas.
I for one will be writing
Peter Inci

edited to correct quote
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Bob Horrocks on October 30, 2012, 12:13:34 pm
I still think people should write with ther personal observations how they feel about what is being done to our lovely village. and surrounding areas.
I for one will be writing
Peter Inci

OK, so we are all very unhappy about the decision, but not surprised if we are honest about it.

However, all letters will be a total waste of time and money.  There is absolutely nothing the officers at County Hall can do with them except acknowledge receipt and file them.  You and I pay the officers salaries, plus the cost of letters, envelopes and postage (not cheap) through our Council Tax.  I would prefer my Council Tax money to be spent on something productive instead of a pointless activity like this.   In these stringent times we expect the County Council to economise and live within its budget, so please do not add to the running costs by writing letters like this.

The next stage has been put in motion as set out by Cathy Roe above.  A bit of patience is needed. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on October 30, 2012, 03:51:33 pm
Peter was encouraging letters to be written to Eric Pickles, Bob, not the Councillors.  Although you may argue that letters to Eric Pickles involve the tax payers in the expense of his replies, it is surely our right to make known our deep distress, providing we keep within the law.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 30, 2012, 08:39:22 pm
providing we keep within the law.

Guess there's no point in me putting in a bid for any anti tank mines up for sale. Pity.

On a more serious note, there have already instances of explosions in incinerators due to gas cylinders 'mistakenly' being included in the waste, and apparently in Veolia's SELCHP (South East London Combined Heat and Power) facility they once included a motorcycle.

I rather doubt that their precious filtration systems are designed to cope with exploding fuel.

In any case it  is worth noting that emissions are averaged out ie. as they have a twin stack, one filter maybe defective and emitting toxins / acidic materials above the limit but if the other is operating properly then, as it is the average emissions from the two stacks, they may not have to report a breach of emissions limits.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on October 30, 2012, 08:46:43 pm
Breaking news:

 30 October 2012 Last updated at 19:35:

"Controversial plans for a waste incinerator in North Yorkshire have been approved by councillors.

North Yorkshire County Council's planning committee took almost eight hours to reach a decision.

The plant at Allerton Park, near Knaresborough, is expected to cost £1.4bn over 25 years.

More than 10,000 people had signed a petition opposed to the scheme. The county council said it was a major part of its waste management plans.

Amey Cespa has been awarded a contract to build and manage the plant by North Yorkshire County Council and the City of York Council.

It would be built using £65m of private finance initiative funding and the Conservative-controlled county council said it would prevent 90% of North Yorkshire's household waste from going into landfill.

The incinerator would also create enough energy from leftover waste to power 40,000 homes, according to Amey Cespa.

The incinerator would be sited in countryside between York and Harrogate

Protesters, including the North Yorkshire Waste Action Group, claim the scheme is too big and is designed to burn far more waste than North Yorkshire produces."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-20145450 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-20145450)

It all sounds horribly familiar.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on October 30, 2012, 09:32:32 pm
Some news to increase our optimism that we will win.

This is an e-mail message for members and supporters to provide an update on Veolia’s planning application for an Energy Recovery Facility (incinerator) at the Former Rufford Colliery site in Rainworth. We are pleased to inform you that Veolia has now withdrawn their legal challenge to the Secretary of State’s decision to refuse planning permission for the proposed facility.
As you may know, a planning application was submitted by Veolia for the facility and related infrastructure back in November 2007. This application was called-in by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government in March 2009, and a public inquiry was held to inform the Secretary of State’s decision. Nottinghamshire Wildlife Trust (NWT) and People Against Incineration (PAIN) worked closely alongside Newark & Sherwood District Council and others to provide evidence for the public inquiry.
On the 26th of May 2011 the Secretary of State announced that he agreed with his Inspector’s recommendation, and formally decided that Veolia’s incinerator application should be refused planning permission for various reasons, including the impact upon protected bird species (Woodlark and Nightjar) and their habitats for nesting and foraging (including heathland and woodland). The Decision Letter and accompanying Inspector's Report are available from: http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planning-callins/pdf/1914959.pdf (http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planning-callins/pdf/1914959.pdf)
Veolia subsequently launched a legal challenge to this decision by making an application to the High Court under Section 288 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 for the Secretary of State’s decision to be rendered null and void. The Government decided to defend the decision to refuse planning permission, and both Nottinghamshire Wildlife Trust and PAIN directed resources to assisting the courts. However, the case will now not be going ahead, as Veolia recently decided to withdraw their appeal. Veolia has now lodged a consent order with the Court to this effect.
Janice Bradley, Head of Conservation Policy and Planning for the Nottinghamshire Wildlife Trust, explains: “We are privileged in Sherwood to host two such important European protected bird species as nightjar and woodlark, and I hope that we can now draw a line under this long saga of immense community and Wildlife Trust resources having to be committed to fight to protect our wildlife and landscape heritage, and can now focus those resources on positive conservation effort, where we can work together for a shared vision of a wildlife-rich landscape that all can enjoy” 
PAIN's Chairman, Bernard Thompson said: "We are also grateful to UKWIN, who helped us see this through to a happy ending".  Rainworth Councillor and PAIN Treasurer Linda Tift added: "The community has plenty to celebrate, and still more to do to protect and enhance local wildlife for the benefit of future generations".
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on November 02, 2012, 08:32:33 am
CONSULTATION ON HERTS CC STATEMENT OF COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT
for Herts Waste Planning Documents and the Planning Application Process for the Management of Minerals and Waste Development.

This consultation closes today.
If you want to respond, you can find the consultation on hertsdirect.org. Look under consultations.
You can use the HCC online consultation system, or send an email to spatialplanning@hertscc.gov.uk
HAI has sent in a detailed response.
You might want to tell HCC that their consultation process is flawed, and that they have ignored responses to consultations, especially the responses to Consultations on the Waste Sites Allocations Document and on Veolia's Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on November 02, 2012, 01:31:20 pm
MEETING OF HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL

MONDAY NOV 5TH. 10.30 a.m. at County Hall , Pegs Lane, Hertford

This meeting is open to the public. Objectors to the proposed incinerator may wish to attend and hear what councillors say.

HCC Waste Core Strategy

This has already been to a hearing, last November, in front of an independent inspector. Some changes /improvements were made (mainly because of the input to the hearing from NBT, HAI, NMGnBeltSoc and HertsWithOut Waste). This Core Strategy is likely to be formally approved at Monday's meeting.

HCC Waste Sites Allocations Document

This document (which lists New Barnfield as a potential waste site, possibly for "thermal treatment" - i.e. incineration) has already been out to public consultation in Feb-March 2012. 2000 objections were made to the inclusion of New Barnfield as a waste site.

HCC have now made some changes to it, mainly because of changes in National legislation. They say they have also made changes as a result of the consultation, but they have still left New Barnfield in the list of potential waste sites (including for incineration).

They plan to put this altered document out to further consultation, from Nov 5th for 6 weeks.

(People who responded in Feb-March should respond that they still object, and anyone who didn't object then can object now)

At Monday's meeting, HCC could, if they wished, remove New Barnfield from the list of sites, before the document goes out for the additional consultation.

There may be some debate on this issue at the meeting.

Reps from HAI and Friends of the Earth intend to be at this meeting, in the public gallery.

Other objectors might like to join us.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on November 02, 2012, 08:56:24 pm
I'm probably a bit late for this but on the Front page of the Hatfield edition of the WHTimes is the approval of the plant.

Also found this article, dated today, of one of the councilors saying why he approved.

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/new_barnfield_incinerator_essential_for_the_county_says_planning_chief_1_1679479 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/new_barnfield_incinerator_essential_for_the_county_says_planning_chief_1_1679479)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 03, 2012, 11:27:41 am
The WHT list Cllr John Barfoot as one of the councillors who was on tthe Development Control Committee and voted for the incinerator. However, I didn't see him there and his name was not on the documents in the chamber (there was another Conservative councillor, Nigel Brook, present).

Also they point out that no WH HCC councillors were involved but miss the fact that Terry Douris was a substitute for Hatfield Cllr Clare Berry.

Or the fact that NONE of the three Hatfield councillors (all Cons) spoke against the incinerator (although two WGC Cons did) - Stuart Pile apparently prepared a speech but apparently was sent in such away that it was not read out.

Frankly, this 'vote' - in my opinion - was a mockery of democracy and 'localism'.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on November 07, 2012, 04:07:28 pm
UPDATES ON THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST AN INCINERATOR AT NEW BARNFIELD ARE POSTED ON www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk) in the news blog section.
Please look there to find out what is going on.
At the moment, New Barnfield Trust has sent in a request for a call-in of Veolia's Planning Application, to Dept of Communities and Local Govt, and we expect a reply by Nov 16th. The planning decision could then go to a Public Inquiry.
Also, HCC is starting yet another public consultation, on a changed version of the Waste Sites Allocations document, starting Nov 9th for 6 weeks. We will be posting ideas for responding to this consultation on our website soon.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 09, 2012, 08:43:36 am
While passing yesterday I noticed that the bulldozers are back on the site for the temporary (allegedly) move of Southfield School. Which suggests either the archaeologists are back for a second bite of the cherry or HCC is pressing ahead with the construction of the temporary school.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on November 09, 2012, 02:15:33 pm
 The Planning Application for an incinerator at New Barnfield is currently being looked at by Dept of Communities and Local Govt, and the application could be "called-in" for a Public Inquiry (we'll know if it is to be "called-in" by Nov 16th). The Planning Permission for the incinerator, passed by HCC  on Oct 24th, is subject to approval by the Secretary of State.
Regardless, HCC seem to be continuing with their plan to move Southfield School temporarily during the building of the proposed incinerator.

The site manager on the old Howe Dell School field site told me this morning that he is preparing the site for a temporary building, to be craned in. The site is to be restored after the temporary use back to a playing field, plus a small car-park.

Lets hope they will stop work at this site if the call-in is announced next week.
 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on November 11, 2012, 08:18:52 am
PLEASE RESPOND TO
THE NEW HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL CONSULTATION
ON PROPOSED SUBMISSION WASTE SITE ALLOCATIONS DOCUMENT

When: Nov 9th to Dec 21st 2012

Who to respond to: email spatialplanning@hertscc.gov.uk
Or post to Spatial and Land Use Planning CHN216, Hertfordshire County Council, Pegs Lane, Hertford, Herts SG12 8DN.

What are you responding to: This is a consultation on Waste Sites for the whole of Hertfordshire. New Barnfield is included as a potential waste site for many kinds of waste management, including “thermal treatment” (i.e. Incineration).
The document is called “Proposed Submission Waste Site Allocations Document”.

Why should you respond?
Although 6300 people objected to Veolia’s Planning Application for an incinerator at New Barnfield (consultation Dec 2011-Jan 2012),and 2000 people objected to New Barnfield being a waste site (consultation Feb-March 2012), New Barnfield is STILL included as a waste site in this latest version of the HCC Waste Sites Document.
So people need to object to New Barnfield still being listed.
EVEN IF YOU OBJECTED BEFORE, YOU NEED TO OBJECT YET AGAIN.

How to respond:
a. You can write a simple letter or email saying that New Barnfield should not be included in the list of sites.
If you objected to the Waste Sites document in Spring 2012,  you can say that you still object to New Barnfield being included.

b. You can use the HAI simplified form (on our website www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)).

c.  You can use the official, more detailed, HCC form.
Look on www.hertsdirect.org (http://www.hertsdirect.org).  Search for Waste Site Allocations, and then click on “Proposed Submission Waste Site Allocations 2012”. There is a list of documents, and the response form is near the end. Or ask for one in a library of council offices.

d. You can use the official HCC on-line consultation response system.

PLEASE SEND YOUR OWN RESPONSE
AND  HELP US TO COLLECT RESPONSES TO THIS CONSULTATION FROM RESIDENTS AND ORGANISATIONS
1. Ask your friends, neighbours and work colleagues to respond.
2. Ask any organisation to which you belong to respond.
3. Arrange a form-signing session in your locality (e.g. at Dutch Nursery or centre of Welham Green).
4. Hatfield Against Incineration and our supporters will be asking the public to sign response forms in Hatfield Town Centre
on Saturdays Nov 17th, Nov 24th, Dec 1st, Dec 8th, Dec 15th. 
Please let us know if you can come to help for a couple of hours on any of those days, morning or afternoon.
We will probably start at 10 a.m. but on Dec 1st we will start at 9 a.m. as it is Farmers’ Market. We will collect signed response forms outside Asda/Boots and/or near Simmons in White Lion Square, Hatfield Town Centre.  You can contact us through the info line on our website     www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)




Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on November 11, 2012, 11:22:44 am
Cathy, the HCC form is horrendously complicated and I would rather avoid it.  But would it carry more weight that the HAI simple one when considered at the end of the Consultation?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on November 11, 2012, 05:25:22 pm
Hi
HCC planning dept say that all responses carry equal weight.
However, HAI think that if you represent an organisation, and definitely if you may want to actually speak at the hearing in front of an inspector, then you should fill in an official form.
HAI will be filling in an official form (probably several forms, referring to  different parts of the Proposed Submission Waste Site Allocations document). We hope that individuals and organisations who are able to do so will fill in an official form.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on November 11, 2012, 07:02:01 pm
This is the link to the document sent out by HCC last week

http://consult.hertscc.gov.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/site_allocations/proposed_sub_wsa (http://consult.hertscc.gov.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/site_allocations/proposed_sub_wsa)

I have registered my objection today, hopefully used the right words to express our disgust at this proposal!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 12, 2012, 11:45:49 am
If anyone needs inspiration you may find some of these arguments helpful:

http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/incin-objection.html (http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/incin-objection.html)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on November 13, 2012, 06:04:48 pm
http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/government_puts_hatfield_incinerator_planning_permission_on_hold_1_1692250 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/government_puts_hatfield_incinerator_planning_permission_on_hold_1_1692250)

The Secretary of State has issued a ‘holding objection’ on the plans for New Barnfield.  This extends the 21 day call-in period indefinitely so there is more time to assess the application before making a decision whether to call it in or to allow HCC to grant planning permission.

Issuing this 'holding direction' is allowed under Article 25 of the Town & Country Planning (Development Management Procedure) Order 2010.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on November 14, 2012, 09:24:38 am
He is likely to use the Police and Crime Commissioner elections as a litmus test.

If he sees that there are no significant political consequences for the Conservatives then he may well decide to let the decision stand on the grounds that if it went anywhere else there would be.

On the plus side is there is now strong opposition being voiced from Hatfield House.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: ScottishGoat on November 14, 2012, 08:13:33 pm
Here is the link to the official HCC "Proposed Submission Waste Site Allocations 2012" documents and response form that Cathy refers to in point C of her message dated 11 November 2012.

http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/propsubwsa2012/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/services/envplan/plan/hccdevplan/wasteplan/wstdevfrmrk/wastesiteallocationsdocument/propsubwsa2012/)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on November 26, 2012, 08:52:35 pm
THIS WEDNESDAY NOVEMBER 28TH
8 p.m.
at Jim MacDonald Centre, High View, (Hilltop), South Hatfield

(Top of Bishop’s Rise, near the Harrier pub, behind the row of shops)

PUBLIC MEETING ABOUT LATEST ACTION V INCINERATOR

Public Meeting called by Welwyn/Hatfield Liberal-Democrats
(Public Meeting will follow Wel/Hat Lib-Dem AGM, which is from 7 – 7.45 p.m.)

Speaker: Paul Zukowskyj (Sec of New Barnfield Trust, and member of Hatfield Against Incineration Committee, Chair of Herts Lib-Dem Co-ordinating Committee)

Paul will outline where the campaign against the incinerator is now and what happens next:

1.   In the Planning Application process
(Veolia’s Planning Application, has been accepted by HCC, but  is currently on hold by the Dept of Communities and Local Govt, and we are waiting to see if they will call it in and hold a public inquiry)

2.   In the HCC Waste Strategy and Waste Sites Policies process
(There is a public consultation running from Nov 9th to Dec 21st on the
“Proposed Submission Waste Site Allocations Document 2012”.
Individuals and organisations need to respond and object to the inclusion of New Barnfield as a waste site with potential for incineration)

Please note, Hatfield Against Incineration is not aligned to any political party.
Cathy, Sec, HAI.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: dijwuds on December 03, 2012, 11:58:15 pm
Hi

I would like to invite you to take part in an environmental project questionnaire that aims at investigating public perceptions within residents of Hatfield towards environmental development using the new Barnfield incinerator in Hatfield, a rail freight interchange in St. Albans and HS2 rail linking London to Birmingham in the Chilterns AONB as case study.

I am a master’s student with the University of Hertfordshire department of environmental management and currently working on my research project.  My motivation is to know how the public perceive large capital infrastructural environmental development.

Please click on the link below to take part in the survey.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WHGJWVL (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WHGJWVL)

Thank you in advance for your contributions

Dije Wudiri
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on December 04, 2012, 08:10:50 am
Hi dijwuds,

Good to have the proper link to the survey. I have now deleted the posts you made in the incinerator thread to avoid cross-posting and confusion and because this is about three issues, not just the one.

You may want to look again at your questions. For example, question one should really have the answer 'No' as an option and the first option should probably be 'yes' rather than totally.

And if you reply 'no' to question 8, you need to add a not applicable (n/a) option for 9 and 10.  Question 8 is a simple 'yes' and 'no' option for the question 'are you aware'.  If you select 'no' it means you can't answer the next two. However you can't complete the survey unless you answer all 10 questions.

David
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: dijwuds on December 04, 2012, 12:11:08 pm
Hi David,

Thank you for your support and contribution. I truly appreciate your comments and would like to receive more feedback from you concerning the improved survey.

Please notify me on any additional questions you might deem necessary to make this survey more efficient.

Dije
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 06, 2012, 04:33:37 pm
Regardless of the Government temporary 'stop' on HCC's decision to grant planning permission for the incinerator while they decide whether to call the decision in (or not), work is continuing on the site for the temporary school (at taxpayer's expense, of course).

Perhaps HCC knows something we don't.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on December 06, 2012, 06:41:03 pm
HAI are aware that work is still going on to prepare the ex-Howe Dell field for a temporary building for Southfield School. HCC have planning permission to move Southfield School there for up to five years, and then the site has to be restored to a playing field. (The builders I spoke to know about this need for restoration afterwards).
Presumably HCC have not stopped the work as they want the temporary school  site to be ready if Veolia does get planning permission.
(HCC promised the school that any move would be in a long summer holiday)
The cost of this work will be an outrageous waste of money if the Planning Application for the incinerator is called in, there is a public inquiry, and the planning permission for the incinerator is rejected.
Choosing a site next to a school and then planning to move  the school temporarily out of the way is  an outrageous waste of money anyway.
However, HCC do not care about wasting council tax-payers' money.
HCC don't care about disruption to vulnerable children.
HCC don't care about putting a noisy, over-shadowing industrial plant and its noisy, fume-emitting HGV traffic next to the  school permanently.

I don't think HCC know any more than we do about what the Dept of Communities and Local Govt are going to decide about whether or not to "call-in" the Planning Application.





Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on December 14, 2012, 08:50:36 am
HCC WASTE SITES CONSULTATION CLOSES SOON (DEC 21st)
– PLEASE RESPOND NOW

 LAST PUSH TO GET SIGNATURES   
SATURDAY DEC 15TH from 10 a.m.
in HATFIELD TOWN CENTRE
HELPERS NEEDED PLEASE
MORNING OR AFTERNOON

Hatfield Against Incineration and our supporters will be asking the public to sign response forms in Hatfield Town Centre
Saturday Dec 15th – start at 10 a.m by Boots/Asda
Please let us know if you can come to help for an hour or two on Saturday 15th,  morning or afternoon.
You can contact us through the info line   
info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk
or contact Cathy Roe

 RALLY SUNDAY DECEMBER 16TH COLNEY HEATH 2.30 p.m.
Meet at Crooked Billet, 88 High Street, Colney Heath.
This is another chance to ask the public to sign response forms.

Also, it is an opportunity to be filmed giving your objections to the incinerator.
Susan Salter, of Colney Heath, is compiling a video of clips of objectors,
for a short  film
to be sent to Eric Pickles at Dept of Communities & Local Govt
and to Herts County Councillors.
If you can’t get to the rally on Sunday, send a filmed message to
bintheincinerator@yahoo.co.uk by December 20th.

PLEASE DON’T FORGET
1.  SEND YOUR OWN RESPONSE
2.  SEND A RESPONSE FROM ANY ORGANISATION YOU BELONG TO
3. COLLECT RESPONSES FROM YOUR FRIENDS, WORK COLLEAGUES AND NEIGHBOURS
4. ARRANGE A FORM-SIGNING SESSION IN YOUR LOCALITY
(e.g. at Dutch Nursery, or Brookman’s Park)

 HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL CONSULTATION
ON PROPOSED SUBMISSION WASTE SITE ALLOCATIONS DOCUMENT

When: Nov 9th to Dec 21st 2012

Who to respond to: email spatialplanning@hertscc.gov.uk
Or post to Spatial and Land Use Planning CHN216, Hertfordshire County Council, Pegs Lane, Hertford, Herts SG12 8DN.

What are you responding to: This is a consultation on Waste Sites for the whole of Hertfordshire. New Barnfield is included as a potential waste site for many kinds of waste management, including “thermal treatment” (i.e. Incineration).
The document is called “Proposed Submission Waste Site Allocations Document”.

Why should you respond?
Although 6300 people objected to Veolia’s Planning Application for an incinerator at New Barnfield (consultation Dec 2011-Jan 2012),and 2000 people objected to New Barnfield being a waste site (consultation Feb-March 2012), New Barnfield is STILL included as a waste site in this latest version of the HCC Waste Sites Document.
So people need to object to New Barnfield still being listed.
EVEN IF YOU OBJECTED LAST WINTER AND SPRING,
YOU NEED TO OBJECT YET AGAIN.

How to respond:
a. You can write a simple letter or email saying that New Barnfield should not be included in the list of sites.

b. You can use the HAI simplified form (on our website www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk) in the newsblog)
Copies of the simplified form are also in “Incidentals” shop at Welham Green
and in the Hatfield Coffee House in Hatfield Town Centre (near Market).

c.  You can use the official, more detailed, HCC form.
Look on www.hertsdirect.org (http://www.hertsdirect.org).  Search for Waste Site Allocations, and then click on “Proposed Submission Waste Site Allocations 2012”. There is a list of documents, and the response form is near the end. Or ask for one in a library of council offices.

d. You can use the official HCC on-line consultation response system.

www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)





 


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 20, 2012, 10:02:21 am
REMINDER: consultation closes tomorrow (please see Cathy's posts above for details)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on December 20, 2012, 02:15:22 pm
Is that a new sign by the New Barnfield roundabout?  It designates the road to the library as an industrial estate. 

It will help Veolia by giving a certain impression to any Inspectors visiting the site.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on December 20, 2012, 11:14:41 pm
Newish...it's been there at least for some months.

Although I did notice it - either it was replaced or undergrowth cut back - when New Barnfield was on the incinerator agenda and the area was likely to have been visited by councillors and others.

Interestingly, I also noticed there appeared to have been some clearance of undergrowth so that the footpath which was almost totally screened from the road was more visible (and the Tesco site was more visible as a result of shrub clearance from the New Barnfield site). While this may have been 'routine' maintenance I was surprised to notice that brambles actually protruding across the footpath had not been cut.

It seemed like some selective gardening had taken place. It's your call as to whether this was purely coincidental or a stage management exercise.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 03, 2013, 08:32:35 am
IF central government actually bothered to introduce laws to reduce waste we wouldn't need any new incinerators:

"The US town of Concord in Massachusetts has banned the sale of bottled water in units smaller than one litre. The law came into effect on January 1, after a three-year campaign to reduce waste and encourage tap water use. First offenders will get a warning. Anyone caught selling the banned bottles a second time will be fined $25 (£15), with $50 for further offences. The Australian town of Bundanoon introduced a complete ban on bottled water in 2009. More than 90 universities in the US and others around the world have already restricted the sale of plastic bottles, as have some local government authorities." -  3 January 2013 Last updated at 00:05
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20895902 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20895902)


"Plastic bag tax: England to be only part of UK which does not charge for single use carriers
Bag use rose by around five per cent to 6.75billion in 2011-12 despite David Cameron demanding reductions. Wales already charges 5p, with Scotland and Northern Ireland on course to charge from next year" - 10:54, 29 December 2012 | UPDATED: 10:54, 29 December 2012
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242787/Plastic-bag-tax-England-UK-does-charge-single-use-carriers.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242787/Plastic-bag-tax-England-UK-does-charge-single-use-carriers.html)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on January 10, 2013, 01:58:45 pm
ENVIRONMENT AGENCY CONSULTATION
 AND ANTI-INCINERATOR PROTEST JAN 24

Hatfield Against Incineration are calling on everyone opposed to an 380,000 tonnes per year waste incinerator at New Barnfield in South Hatfield to attend a protest on Thursday January 24th  at 7.00 p.m.
 The protest will be outside the Cecil Memorial Hall, Hatfield (which is opposite the Market Place, on the corner of French Horn Lane, in Hatfield Town Centre). Protesters are asked to bring banners, placards, and torches and lanterns (as it will be dark).
The protest is against the draft decision by the Environment Agency to grant permission for an incinerator to operate. The Environment Agency is consulting on their draft decision between Jan 9th and Feb 8th, and they will hold “drop-in sessions” at the Memorial Hall in Hatfield on Wed Jan 23 and Thursday Jan 24, between 2 and 8 p.m.
HAI is asking objectors to attend the drop-in sessions before or after they attend the protest on Jan 24th at 7 p.m. They are also asking residents to send in written objections by the closing date of Feb 8th. 
The Environment Agency consultation documents can be found on the Environment Agency website ( https://consult.environmentagency.gov.uk/portal/permits/draft/new/barnfield (https://consult.environmentagency.gov.uk/portal/permits/draft/new/barnfield)).
The documents will also be available at Hatfield Library, at WHBC offices in Welwyn Garden City, and at the Environment Agency offices in Hatfield.
Details of why campaigners oppose the draft decision to permit the incinerator will be posted on the Hatfield against Incineration website www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk).
Cathy Roe, secretary of HAI,  said, “The proposed incinerator would be a danger to human health and to the natural environment, particularly because of emissions and noise, including the noise it would create at Southfield School, adjacent to the New Barnfield site.”

Meanwhile, a decision is still awaited from the Dept of Communities and Local Govt on whether they will “call-in” the decision by Herts County Council to grant planning permission for an incinerator at New Barnfield. The DCLG can reject the incinerator plan, or call a Public Inquiry.
Also awaited is the date of the hearing in public concerning Herts County Council’s Waste Site Allocations document. Thousands of objections to the inclusion of New Barnfield as a waste site were sent to HCC in December 2012.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on January 16, 2013, 10:34:06 am
PROTEST
AGAINST AN INCINERATOR
IN HATFIELD
THURSDAY JANUARY 24TH 7.00 p.m.
OUTSIDE WILLIAM CECIL MEMORIAL HALL,
(corner of French Horn Lane,
opposite Market Place in Hatfield Town Centre)
Please bring banners and placards
and torches and lanterns (as it will be dark)

The Environment Agency is consulting the public on their intention to grant an operating permit for an incinerator at New Barnfield
The Environment Agency is holding drop-in sessions at the Memorial Hall
on Wed Jan 23 and Thurs Jan 24 , 2.00 - 8.00 p.m.
PLEASE GO TO A DROP-IN SESSION before or after the protest
…………………………………………………………………………
Tell the Environment Agency why they should not give a permit to an incinerator
close to a school for children with special needs, people’s homes, and wildlife areas.
It is not acceptable for the Environment Agency to permit:
NOISE, affecting the school especially
DANGEROUS EMISSIONS into the air we breathe
DESTRUCTIVE CHEMICALS on our wildlife sites
ODOUR, affecting people working, living or taking recreation near the incinerator
HUGE CARBON EMISSIONS, adding to global warming
LOW ENERGY EFFICIENCY, using resources for a small output of electricity
……………………………………………………………………………………
The Environment Agency consultation closes on Feb 8th.
Please respond to the consultation:
On line
https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield (https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/app/new/barnfield)
or write to
Environment Agency, Permit Support Centre, P.O.Box 4209, Sheffield S9 9BS.
quoting the consultation number: EA/EPR/MP3637FL/A001
……………………………………………………………………………………………………
www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 17, 2013, 08:32:53 am
"COUNTY Hall will be forced to release documents - which until now had been kept private - showing the amount of emissions the New Barnfield incinerator is set to generate.

Last week the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) told waste firm Veolia and the county council that they must put the documents into the public domain, as although they contain comercially sensitive material, this was not a reason for non-disclosure. Legislation states emissions data cannot be witheld because of commercial concerns.

A request to overturn the decision was entered by Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI), who say that the documents should have been released before the decisison was made to grant planning permisssion,

Paul Zukowskyj, HAI executive member, said: “The ICO’s decision is clear and unambiguous, HCC and Veolia were not justified in withholding any of the information.

“They should have released it, now the ICO will make them release it.

“We could have used this information to expand our objection to the planning application if HCC and Veolia had released it when they should have.

“If we have to take them to court for a judicial review, their failure to release this information may be viewed by the court as a failure of the planning process and it may help derail the project for good.

“I’ve been in touch with the New Barnfield Action Fund’s solicitor today to seek legal guidance about this.

“We call on HCC to release the material that should have been submitted with the planning application immediately and not to waste public resources on an appeal.”

The documents will be released in early February and Veolia and HCC have 28 days to launch an appeal before the files go on display to the public."

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/county_hall_rapped_for_not_releasing_incinerator_emissions_data_1_1795649 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/county_hall_rapped_for_not_releasing_incinerator_emissions_data_1_1795649)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on January 17, 2013, 03:55:03 pm
The Environment Agency Consultation can be found on
https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/draft/new/barnfield

Notice it is "draft" not "app".
The link in the letter sent out by the Environment Agency is incorrect, as is the link in my posting previous to this one.

Closing date is Feb 8th 2013, but both HAI and Herts WithOut Waste have asked for an extension.
Please see our website for latest information.

PLEASE COME TO THE PROTEST ON THURS JAN 24 AT 7 p.m. outside Memorial Hall, corner of French Horn Lane, Hatfield Town Centre.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 24, 2013, 09:49:30 am
Reminder: HAI planned protest at Environment Agency consultation – 19:00 (7pm) tonight

Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) is planning a protest outside on the last hour of the last day of the EA consultation sessions being held at the Cecil Memorial Hall (House on the Rock Christian Ministry) [AL10 8AQ]  opposite Market Place, Hatfield town centre, on the corner of French Horn Lane and the B6426 Queensway.

More info in Reply #679 above.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on January 25, 2013, 05:17:03 pm
PROTESTERS CALL ON ENVIRONMENT AGENCY TO REFUSE INCINERATOR PERMIT
The Environment Agency is holding a Public Consultation on their draft decision to grant permission for a 380,000 tonnes per year incinerator to operate at New Barnfield in Hatfield.
On Thursday January 24th, a large crowd of residents protested outside the Memorial Hall in Hatfield, where the Environment Agency was holding drop-in sessions about the permitting. In the snow and bitter cold, the protesters chanted their objections.  Then they went into the hall to tell representatives of the Environment Agency how deeply they oppose the incinerator being given a permit.
The consultation has now been extended until February 22nd.
Responses can be made through the Environment Agency’s on-line system, or by emailing psc@environment-agency.gov.uk, or by posting a form (or letter)  to PSC –EP Team, Quadrant 2, 99 Parkway Ave, Sheffield, S9 4WF.
The Environment Agency consultation documents and response forms can be found on the EA website (https://consult.environment-agency.gov.uk/portal/permits/draft/new/barnfield). The documents are also  are available at Hatfield Library, at WHBC offices in Welwyn Garden City, and at the Environment Agency offices at Bishops Square in Hatfield.
Campaigners are urging people to object to the granting of a permit.  They say that strong reasons  for objection are noise, which would affect Southfield School above the recommended limit; the impact of acid deposits on local wildlife sites; and  pollution of the air with chemicals  dangerous to health. Cathy Roe, Secretary of Hatfield Against Incineration, said, “ Further reasons for objecting to the permit are that carbon dioxide emissions from the proposed incinerator,  contributing to global warming, would be greater than with alternative methods of waste management. Also, an incinerator on the New Barnfield site would not be energy-efficient, as although it would produce some electricity for the grid, there are no local takers for the heat that it could produce”.
Meanwhile, Veolia’s Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield is still on hold with the Department of Communities and Local Government, who may call-in the application and hold a public inquiry.
Also awaited is the date of the Hearing in Public concerning Herts County Council’s Waste Site Allocations document. 2317 objections to the inclusion of New Barnfield as a waste site were sent to HCC in December 2012. This was in addition to the 6300 objections that were made to Veolia’s Planning Application in January 2012.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on January 28, 2013, 05:19:56 pm
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on January 28, 2013, 05:37:03 pm
Today the Sec of State at the Dept of Communities and Local Govt called-in Veolia's Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield.

There will now be a public inquiry.

Key factors to be considered are:-
1. Consistency with Development Plan for the Area
2. Conformity with policies contained in Planning Policy Statement 10: Planning for Sustainable Management
and the National Planning Policy Framework
3. Impact of the proposed development on the significanse of a designated heritage asset
4. Any other matters that the Inspector considers relevant.

SO NOW THE ISSUES WILL BE LOOKED AT BY AN INSPECTOR
SO NOW THERE IS A VERY STRONG POSSIBILITY THAT THE PLANNING APPLICATION WILL NOT BE GRANTED
CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THOSE WHO HAVE SUPPORTED THE CAMPAIGN SO FAR

WE CAN DEFEAT THIS DREADFUL INCINERATOR PLAN


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: BrookyP on January 28, 2013, 05:51:03 pm
Blimey thats a result-good luck guys :)

BP
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mr Green on January 28, 2013, 05:57:34 pm
Excellent news. Even if common sense and the peoples will prevail, remember who stood alongside you and who didn't when you come to put an X on a local ballot paper. 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on January 28, 2013, 05:58:43 pm
Fantastic news. At last we have the chance of an impartial opinion.  Herts CC can't just steamroll us as they hoped!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on January 28, 2013, 07:39:48 pm
Phew! :)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 28, 2013, 09:30:11 pm
At first glance it seems like excellent news - and definitely is a positive sign.

Congratulations to Cathy in particular and the others who have been canvassing for signatures for the various petitions in all sorts of weather.

However, there is a but - and we are not out of the woods yet.

Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Eric Pickles has a mixed record when it comes to incinerator decisions, in one case overturning a council's decision NOT to have an incinerator.

His decision to call it in means we will probably go to the polls for the local elections with the issue still undecided. If the ruling party gets punished then he may decide they've nothing further to lose and grant it or take it as a warning for the general election and decide it's too much of an electoral liability and bin it. So it could go either way.

Also, Veolia has previous form for not accepting decisions that didn't go their way without mounting their own legal challenge / judicial review.

On the positive side news that HCC has been ruled to have incorrectly withheld information helps the case against it - and a legal challenge should it be necessary.

Finally, it still leaves the question of how we dispose of our waste undecided with landfill taxes escalating - and a tab for this whole mess (including the 'temporary' move of Southfield School) to be picked up as well.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Mr Green on January 28, 2013, 09:48:54 pm
His decision to call it in means we will probably go to the polls for the local elections with the issue still undecided.

Can't wait. Bye bye.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on January 28, 2013, 11:02:37 pm
This is great news.   

Also worth having a look at this weeks Private Eye which shows the links between Veolia, the incinerator company and the ex-head of a university department that helps incinerator projects get the greenlight.   
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on January 31, 2013, 09:28:09 am
Another source of incinerator fuel about to dry up.

However, given it highlights that there is still a Herts local authority that doesn't have kerbside plastic recycling. All in all it shows the staggering lack of joined up thinking by local and national government, which would have and continues to cost taxpayers a staggering amount (what with all the protests, petitions, public inquiries and legal action that has and is going on across the country).

From The Comet...

Quote
Plastic recycling to come to North Herts - Wednesday, January 30, 2013 12:27 PM
"RESIDENTS in North Herts will join others across the county this summer when recycling services are brought in line with other councils.

http://www.thecomet.net/news/plastic_recycling_to_come_to_north_herts_1_1832993 (http://www.thecomet.net/news/plastic_recycling_to_come_to_north_herts_1_1832993)

Note: Edited for copyright reasons.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Aloo on January 31, 2013, 02:44:24 pm
IMHO the "real" fuel for the incinerator build is the PFI credits that HCC believe they will get  to fund the scheme.  Someone needs to point out the flawed nature of the business case to the policy makers (elected councillors and the officials) who are pushing this scheme.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 08, 2013, 01:04:14 pm
"Hatfield Councillors have voiced concerns after it was announced that the move of Southfield Special School to a temporary site near the former Howe Dell school off Woods Avenue, will be going ahead in spite of the fact that the application for the waste incinerator has been called in by the Department of Communities and Local Government. Hertfordshire County Council plans a 4 million pound move for the School whilst the incinerator, which has yet to receive approval and faces a lengthy public enquiry, is under construction."

http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_letters/10216509.Councillors_Raise_Concerns_Over_School_Move/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_letters/10216509.Councillors_Raise_Concerns_Over_School_Move/)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on February 08, 2013, 01:58:31 pm
COUNTY COUNCIL PLAN TO MOVE SOUTHFIELD SCHOOL CHILDREN

BEFORE INCINERATOR HAS PLANNING PERMISSION

Please join protest v Incinerator, Saturday Feb 16th 3 p.m. outside the temporary site for Southfield School

(on Woods Ave Hatfield, opposite the exit from Bishop's Hatfield Girls' School)

Please bring banners and placards.

Herts County Council are continuing with their plan to build temporary accommodation for Southfield School. The planned temporary school is being built on a site on Woods Avenue in Hatfield which was previously a school playing field. On February 6th the builders drove a crane on to the site, and prefabricated sections of the temporary building started to arrive on articulated lorries.

The intention of the proposed move of the Southfield children is to move them temporarily, away from the noise and disruption of the construction process of the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield.  The incinerator site is directly next to Southfield School, and access to the site passes directly in front of the school.

A county council spokesman confirmed that HCC are planning “to move the school at the end of this academic year whether or not planning permission has been granted for the waste facility”.

The planning application by Veolia to build the proposed incinerator was “called-in” by the Department of Communities and Local Government on Jan 28th, and a public inquiry will be held, probably this summer. After the inquiry, it is likely to be some months before the Secretary of State gives a final decision, possibly in Autumn 2013.

Cathy Roe, Secretary of Hatfield Against Incineration said, “We are astonished that the county council are thinking of  moving the children before the proposed incinerator has gained planning permission, as they would then need to move back again if planning permission is not granted. There would be tremendous anxiety created by this unnecessary double move.”

“We are also shocked that HCC say they are aware that these children are particularly likely to be affected by noise and disruption, and yet they are defending the building of an incinerator right next to their permanent school. It is admitted by Veolia that noise would be created by the incinerator and its HGV traffic, and that the recommended noise limit would be exceeded in the classrooms if the windows are open.”

Paul Zukowskyj , Secretary of New Barnfield Action Fund, said, “Nearly four million pounds of the  public’s  money  is being spent on this temporary building, when it is most likely that the children will not need to move at all, as there are such strong reasons why the Planning Application should be rejected.”

Campaigners are holding an anti-incinerator protest at 3 p.m. on Saturday February 16th, outside the temporary school site, which is directly opposite the exit from the Bishop’s Hatfield Girls’ School on Woods Avenue, Hatfield.

www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on February 13, 2013, 08:15:31 am

CAMPAIGNERS GAIN POPULAR FOOTPATH AS RIGHT OF WAY

The footpath from Southway Bridge to Bunchleys Pond in South Hatfield has now been officially confirmed as a Right of Way. Back in Spring 2010 Paul Zukowskyj and Cathy Roe of “Hatfield against Incineration” organised people who used this path to put in a claim. The efforts of those people have now been rewarded with the permanent official right to use this popular walk. Right of Way signs will be put up soon.

The footpath is the start of a Countryside Management Services recommended Nature Walk between Hatfield and Welham Green. The path leads up to Bunchleys Pond, which is a popular spot for picnics, fishing, kite-flying and other leisure.

The Homes and Communities Agency own the piece of countryside through which the path runs. They will soon be moving the first section of the path nearer to the Southway Bridge, so that it is entirely on their land, not on land belonging to Herts County Council, and they will make some improvements.

The proposed incinerator at New Barnfield is right next to this footpath and pond, and this is just one of the many reasons why people are objecting to Herts County Council’s incinerator plan.

Cathy Roe, said, “This is one small victory for public opinion, and it will give local people hope that their needs cannot be ignored if they speak out. Back in 2010, notices appeared saying the path was not a right of way, but many people who had used the path, some since the nineteen sixties, made the effort to put in a claim.”

Paul Zukowskyj commented “Many people came forward to offer their support for this campaign, filling in paperwork. I’d like to thank them all for their help: it’s thanks to them that we’ve won the right for everyone to use this path.”

Now there is a campaign to have the area around Bunchleys Pond recognised as a Village Green. So if you have used the area for recreation at any time during the last twenty five years, please contact Mark Lampert. He can be contacted by emailing bunchleys@gmail.com or through the Bunchleys Pond page on Facebook.

   
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on February 13, 2013, 08:20:11 am


LETTERS FROM HERTS COUNTY COUNCIL TO OBJECTORS TO VEOLIA'S PLANNING APPLICATION

Letters are going out from Herts County Council Planning Unit to people who sent in objections to Veolia's Planning Application to build an incinerator at New Barnfield. 6300 objections were made in January 2012.

(You probably objected in the Dec 2011-Jan 2012 Consultation, and/or possibly in the consultations on Further Information that took place in May/June 2012, June/July 2012, and Sept 2012).

As there is now to be a Public Inquiry into the Planning Application, you are invited in the letter to send comments or representations about the case to Leanne Palmer, who is the member of the Planning Inspectorate who is dealing with the Public Inquiry on behalf of the Secretary of State.

We have been told that the Public Inquiry is likely to take place this Summer, leading to a recommendation by the Planning Inspector, and a final decision by the Secretary of State, probably in the Autumn.

You may wish to respond to the Planning Inspector that the objection you made originally still stands. It is also an opportunity for you to let the inspector know if there’s anything else you would like to object to or point out.

We will put further information on our  website soon. www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk). We will also post information about how New Barnfield Action Fund, Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council and English Heritage will be putting forward the case against an incinerator at New Barnfield at the Public Inquiry.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on February 13, 2013, 08:23:11 am
PLANNING INQUIRY
All your original objections to Veolia's Planning Application will be given to the inspector conducting the Public  Inquiry.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on February 13, 2013, 11:12:52 am
Where is Bunchley's Pond?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on February 13, 2013, 11:23:58 am
Directions
http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_nature_watch/9209730.Hatfield_s_accessible_countryside/ (http://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/hatfield/hatfield_nature_watch/9209730.Hatfield_s_accessible_countryside/)


Second picture down (the former Central Resources Library is behind the trees to the right)
http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/gallery/gallery-barnfield.html (http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/gallery/gallery-barnfield.html)


Proximity to the former Central Resources Library
http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/rowdevoppresponse.pdf (http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/n/rowdevoppresponse.pdf)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on February 15, 2013, 01:29:24 pm
REMINDER
SATURDAY FEBRUARY 16TH


PROTEST AGAINST AN INCINERATOR BEING BUILT AT NEW BARNFIELD
PROTEST OUTSIDE BUILDING SITE ON WOODS AVENUE, HATFIELD
OPPOSITE EXIT FROM BISHOP'S HATFIELD GIRLS' SCHOOL

3 p.m. until about 3.45 p.m.

Please bring banners and placards

The protest will be outside the building site where a temporary school is being built for the children of Southfield School to use during the construction of the proposed incinerator - although the incinerator does not have Planning Permission.
Public Inquiry into Veolia's Planning Application for the proposed incinerator is now likely to be in September.
 
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on February 17, 2013, 06:29:30 pm

ANTI-INCINERATOR CAMPAIGNERS PROTEST OUTSIDE TEMPORARY SCHOOL SITE
On Saturday Feb 16th anti-incinerator protesters gathered with banners and placards outside the building site on Woods Avenue, Hatfield, where a temporary school is being constructed, opposite the exit from Bishop’s Hatfield School.
The protesters are angry that Herts County Council is paying nearly four million pounds for this temporary school, and is intending to move Southfield School children to it this summer, before the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield has Planning Permission.
The purpose of a temporary move of the Southfield children is to move them away during the construction process of the proposed incinerator at New Barnfield.  The incinerator site is directly next to Southfield School, and access to the site passes directly in front of the school.
However, the Planning Application by Veolia to build the proposed incinerator has not gained approval, and will be considered at a Public Inquiry, led by an independent inspector, probably this September.  After the inquiry, it is likely to be some months before the Secretary of State gives a final decision.
Paul Zukowskyj , Secretary of New Barnfield Action Fund, said, “The Public Inquiry is likely to reject Veolia’s Planning Application. It would be pointlessly disruptive to the Southfield children to move them until the outcome of that inquiry is known.”
Simon Archer, Chairman of HAI said "While we are pleased that the County Council accepts the fact that the pupils at Southfield School have complex needs and are more likely to be affected by noise and disruption, HCC's actions fly in the face of that obvious truth. The Council's choice was simple: not to move the children until it is necessary to do so, if at all, or, to move the children twice. HCC has chosen the course of maximum disruption and are moving the children twice, even though the move may not be required at all. If HCC have genuine concerns for the parents' uncertainty and anxiety they have a simple remedy: scrap the proposed incinerator!"
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on February 19, 2013, 07:25:11 pm
I've just been looking at the Veolia Environment site http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Main/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Main/) and the text about 'Our Values'.  It's the bit in the red box (screen grab below). It reads:
Quote
Our responsibility
We work hard to be a good neighbour. Whether in our business practices, our work with communities or our carbon footprint, we strive to reduce our impact on people, places and the wider environment.
I add the bold highlighting.
 ::)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: GWTSEC on February 20, 2013, 08:37:02 am
I caught this programme on radio4 yesterday, very interesting, you can catch up on line.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qm4ph (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qm4ph)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: sasquartch on February 20, 2013, 09:20:34 am
I've just been looking at the Veolia Environment site http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Main/ (http://www.veoliaenvironmentalservices.co.uk/Main/) and the text about 'Our Values'.  It's the bit in the red box (screen grab below). It reads:
Quote
Our responsibility
We work hard to be a good neighbour. Whether in our business practices, our work with communities or our carbon footprint, we strive to reduce our impact on people, places and the wider environment.
I add the bold highlighting.
 ::)

Unfortunately just meaningless words you'll find from pretty much any major company.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on February 22, 2013, 05:31:40 pm
PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO VEOLIA’S PLANNING APPLICATION
LATEST NEWS


We have been told that the Public Inquiry is now likely to be in September.

1. Letters from HCC Planning Unit inviting comments or representations (to be sent to Leanne Palmer of the Planning Inspectorate).

Letters have been sent out (to local residents and people who responded in previous consultations) inviting comments or representations.

HAI suggest that if you wish to make a comment or representation you might like to look at the summary of HAI’s reasons for opposing the Planning Application (which will be on our website).
You might select some points that are particularly important to you,
for example if the impact of certain issues would affect you personally,
or if you have particular knowledge and concern about certain issues. 
You will need to send 3 copies to the address given in the letter, with the reference 2192045.
There is likely to be a particular evening of the Public Inquiry at which members of the community can put forward their views.
(It will not be useful just to send copies of HAI’s summary of reasons)

2. Putting the Main Case against the Incinerator at the Public Inquiry
The main case against the incinerator at New Barnfield will be presented at the Public Inquiry by what are called “Rule 6 Parties”, and the Rule 6 Parties are likely to have legal representation and to call witnesses as experts.
At the moment we know that New Barnfield Action Fund has been accepted as a Rule 6 Party, and so has English Heritage, and a small number of other organisations may also be asking to be Rule 6 Parties at the Inquiry.

New Barnfield Action Fund is the umbrella organisation for Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, Hatfield Town Council, North Mymms Green Belt Society, and Hatfield Against Incineration. At the Public Inquiry NBAF will put forward a case agreed by these four members. NBAF will have legal representation, funded by NBAF’s existing funds and funds it is going to raise.

3. Donations to NBAF are needed please,  as the legal costs will be high.
Please give generously to New Barnfield Action Fund, and send cheques to
Neil Robinson, Treasurer, New Barnfield Action Fund, c/o Maynard House,The Common, Hatfield, Herts,AL10 ONF.
(The address is the Conservative Association Offices because Grant Shapps MP is chair of the NBAF.)


Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Ex Libris on March 03, 2013, 05:17:34 pm
Herts WithOut Waste is a Hertfordshire-wide group campaigning against the proposed incinerator and for a more sustainable, less expensive integrated solution to the County’s waste management.  The group’s website is at http://hertswow.webs.com/ (http://hertswow.webs.com/)

Herts WithOut Waste has set up a petition and urgently needs 100 signatures to reinforce a request to HCC for the latest, corrected data and projections for waste arisings.  Full details can be accessed from the link "100-signature petition" under “Recent Blog Entries” on the right hand side of the webpage.

Please sign the Petition if you agree with the group’s aims.   
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 03, 2013, 06:24:23 pm
Herts WithOut Waste is a Hertfordshire-wide group campaigning against the proposed incinerator and for a more sustainable, less expensive integrated solution to the County’s waste management.  The group’s website is at http://hertswow.webs.com/ (http://hertswow.webs.com/)

Herts WithOut Waste has set up a petition and urgently needs 100 signatures to reinforce a request to HCC for the latest, corrected data and projections for waste arisings.  Full details can be accessed from the link "100-signature petition" under “Recent Blog Entries” on the right hand side of the webpage.

Please sign the Petition if you agree with the group’s aims. 

Hi Ex Libris, I am providing a direct link to the petition rather than the round about route described above.

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 03, 2013, 07:02:10 pm
The wording of the petition below

Quote
New Barnfield waste incinerator proposal "... the savings that it will generate for the County Council over its 25-year operation have been calculated at a total of £779m or an average of £31m a year" (press release July 2011; Report HCC Waste Management Cabinet Panel, 7th March 2013, para 7.3; etc.).

These 'savings' are used to justify the proposal but are based on out of date projections and information (some from 2008).
In the light of the significant changes that have occurred since these 'savings' were calculated we believe that they are no longer valid.
We request that HCC, if they seek to continue with this incinerator proposal, urgently produce, and then publish, up to date calculations.

Please consider signing.

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on March 04, 2013, 09:41:53 am
Have signed today and noticed that the petition requires 1000 signatures NOT 100 with currently
250 signatures showing leaving 750 to go - please sign this morning if you have not already done
so :)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 04, 2013, 09:48:49 am
Have signed today and noticed that the petition requires 1000 signatures NOT 100 with currently
250 signatures showing leaving 750 to go - please sign this morning if you have not already done
so :)

Yes 746 more names needed (as of 09:45 this morning)

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 04, 2013, 12:31:27 pm
Just 707 more signatures needed. The total now stands at 293 as of 12:30 today (Monday 4 March). That's almost 40 new signatures in just under three hours.

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on March 04, 2013, 04:53:42 pm
100 signatures should be enough for Mick Bee of Herts WithOut Waste  to get permission to present the petition at the Waste Panel meeting on Thursday, 2 pm. at County Hall.
Of course the more signatures to the petition the better.
Many thanks to all who have signed so far. Please do keep signing.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 04, 2013, 05:01:43 pm
372 signatures at 5pm. 

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 04, 2013, 07:31:42 pm
Now up to 391.  Just tweeted to try to encourage more to sign. If you do sign please share on Facebook and tweet.  I invited dozens to sign via Facebook and many responded (you get a notification when they do).

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 05, 2013, 09:11:14 am
Now up to 426 votes in the petition asking for Herts Co Co to set out the incinerator costs. 574 needed for the 1,000.

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: ADM on March 05, 2013, 01:03:23 pm
562 NEEDED

· There was an error submitting your form. Please try again later.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on March 05, 2013, 10:31:46 pm
PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO VEOLIA’S PLANNING APPLICATION
LATEST NEWS


We have been told that the Public Inquiry is now likely to be in September.



3. Donations to NBAF are needed please,  as the legal costs will be high.
Please give generously to New Barnfield Action Fund, and send cheques to
Neil Robinson, Treasurer, New Barnfield Action Fund, c/o Maynard House,The Common, Hatfield, Herts,AL10 ONF.
(The address is the Conservative Association Offices because Grant Shapps MP is chair of the NBAF.)

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/15_000_appeal_in_bid_to_stop_new_barnfield_incinerator_1_1962761 (http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/15_000_appeal_in_bid_to_stop_new_barnfield_incinerator_1_1962761)

You can also transfer direct to Barclays Bank, Potters Bar

Sort Code 209254

Account No. 63481824

Apparently a further £15,000 to the fund is required for legal fees so if everybody were to donate just a few quid this target could easily be achieved. :)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 05, 2013, 10:48:49 pm
Please give generously to New Barnfield Action Fund, and send cheques to Neil Robinson, Treasurer, New Barnfield Action Fund, c/o Maynard House,The Common, Hatfield, Herts,AL10 ONF.
(The address is the Conservative Association Offices because Grant Shapps MP is chair of the NBAF.)

Is this linked to the Save New Barnfield site?  http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/) which still has the small print agreeing to tory spam. And how can those contributing be sure every penny will be spent on the campaign and that private details won't be used for political campaigning?  And is there not a way of donating that is not linked to a political party?  I am sure this will put some off putting their hands in their pockets.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on March 05, 2013, 11:16:41 pm


Is this linked to the Save New Barnfield site?  http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/ (http://www.savenewbarnfield.com/) which still has the small print agreeing to tory spam. And how can those contributing be sure every penny will be spent on the campaign and that private details won't be used for political campaigning?  And is there not a way of donating that is not linked to a political party?  I am sure this will put some off putting their hands in their pockets.

A cynic could think that, but lets face it, most charities that you could donate to have money
creamed off the top to pay for directors big houses.

All I know is that this fund is supported by -

North Mymms District Green Belt Society

Hatfield Town Council (whatever political party that is)

Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) including Lib/Dem Paul Zukowskyj

Thats good enough for me, this is the only fund for legal representation that I know of and even if not all the monies are used appropriately I consider this issue important enough to mitigate the risk and any affront to any political leanings I might have.

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 06, 2013, 06:21:18 am
A cynic could think that, but lets face it, most charities that you could donate to have money creamed off the top to pay for directors big houses.

I am not a cynic; I raised a genuine concern which has not been allayed by that response.

For those interested, the petition now has 462 signatures with 538 needed. So nearly halfway there.
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on March 06, 2013, 08:40:05 am
David, apologies for implying your view was one of a cynic.
The thing is, there is only one realistic fighting fund that I know of and I consider it of the utmost importance that we have the best legal representation if there is to be a successful outcome at the forthcoming Public Enquiry.
I assume that if a donation is made as a direct payment spam could be avoided?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on March 06, 2013, 09:01:13 am
Hi Epiphany, sorry for overreacting. It's probably just me being wary, but I just don't feel comfortable with the situation. You are prepared to accept there may be a trade off, and you may be right, but I can't bring myself to accept that. 
this is the only fund for legal representation that I know of and even if not all the monies are used appropriately I consider this issue important enough to mitigate the risk and any affront to any political leanings I might have.
I don't have any political allegiances (although my personal political leanings have always been liberal left of centre) but the association of these funds to a local party HQ concerns me. Sorry
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: PS on March 06, 2013, 09:17:21 am
Perhaps someone could help - would legal fees not be 'refunded' i.e. the other party would bear the costs of what was initially taken from the donated funds if they lost the case ?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on March 06, 2013, 09:36:59 am

I don't have any political allegiances (although my personal political leanings have always been liberal left of centre) but the association of these funds to a local party HQ concerns me. Sorry

Ironically, any political kudos garnered would probably go in the direction of Lib/Dem candidate Paul Zukowskyj who has been extremely vocal and active throughout the anti-incinerator campaign.
I even saw him out in sub-zero temperatures several weeks ago hand delivering leaflets updating on progress.
Ok, I know he also has a political agenda but at least he was out there off his backside doing something.
Like you I do not have any political allegiances but vote entirely based on issues.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on March 06, 2013, 10:35:16 am
Even more controversy today:    an important report into the impact the New Barnfield incinerator on the environment has been released without key figures.

Quote from Paul Zukowskyj in today's Welwyn Hatfield Times  -


“They [Hertfordshire County Council] are using the data protection act to stop local residents actually finding out what is on the contract as they say it is commercially confidential.

“They are saying the appendices are not part of the report - but the report refers to information in the appendices.

“It makes me wonder what are they trying to hide.”
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 06, 2013, 06:19:16 pm
I spoke to Paul regarding the 'safety' of contributions when this came up some time back and he didn't appear to have any worries on this issue (I think he may even have posted a response on this board).

However, I suggest people send cheques (payable to: 'New Barnfield Action Fund') and a covering letter (and keep copies) if they have any concerns.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on March 07, 2013, 09:01:54 am
New Barnfield Action Fund is totally separate from any political party.
NBAF has members WelwynHatfield Borough Council, Hatfield Town Council, North Mymms Green Belt Society, and Hatfield against Incineration. Leaders of the 3 main political parties on Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council are members of the NBAF.
Secretary is  is Paul Zukowksyj (who is Lib/Dem), Chair is Grant Shapps (Conservative).
Treasurer is Neil Robinson (I don't know what is his political allegiance, if any.)
Hatfield Against Incineration is represented on NBAF by its secretary Cathy Roe, who is not a member of any political party.
Donations should go to New Barnfield Action Fund c/o The Treasurer, Neil Robinson.
(The use of Maynard House ,The Commons , Hatfield as a postal address is for convenience).

I can assure everyone that the funds of NBAF will be used for the campaign against an incinerator at New Barnfield.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Peeplins on March 07, 2013, 11:40:16 pm


For those interested, the petition now has 462 signatures with 538 needed. So nearly halfway there.
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/hertfordshire-county-council-produce-up-to-date-cost-calculations-for-new-barnfield-incinerator)

493 now!
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on March 08, 2013, 07:40:04 am
The petition questioning  HCC quoted  "savings"  by using an incinerator was presented yesterday (March 7th) to Waste Cabinet Panel of HCC.
Mick Bee of Herts WithOut Waste presented it, and also circulated to councillors on the Panel his calculations of up-to-date figures of waste and costs, showing that the quoted figures cannot now be correct.
Officers Richard Brown and Ray Greenall will now check the data, and will provide a response  to Herts WithOut Waste and the Waste Cabinet Panel within 10 days.
Many thanks to all who signed the petition, as it enabled Herts WithOut Waste to raise this very important issue.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 08, 2013, 12:56:16 pm
Conservative voters who are opposed to the incinerator have an unenviable dilemma when it comes to the forthcoming local elections given the subsequent Government Review of the incinerator planning permission decision - IF the three current Hatfield ward HCC councillors stand for relection.

None of the three said a word against granting planning permission at the HCC meeting (a fact curiously missed in press coverage of the decision). In fact, Clare Berry effectively voted in favour - through a proxy. Both she and Bill Storey have previously spoken and voted against LibDem attempts (supported by Labour) to exclude New Barnfield from the site list on the grounds that it was next to a special needs school (which has now required a multi-million pound spend to 'temporary' relocate it and leaves the yet unanswered question as to the fate of the purpose-built award winning facility that now lies empty - given the sensitivity of the children it is highly unlikely and undesirable for any child to be sent back to it).

The remaining councillor, Stuart Pile, who represents South Hatfield (but lives on the airfield site) and was also on the library panel that approved the move of the CRL (and the resulting loss of facilities to all library users but especially to those in Hatfield) has previously downplayed the potential impact of the incinerator, and none of the residents who attended the Community Engagement Group that I've spoken to felt he was representing Hatfield residents'interests.

So, if any of these three individuals is re-elected it will strengthen the hand of incinerator proponents at the Government Review who will most likely claim that this is proof that the majority of Hatfield residents are unconcerned by the incinerator and that it is just a small, vocal group of environmentalists and NIMBYs opposing it.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: chicken legs on March 08, 2013, 02:04:55 pm
Stuaart Pile's election leaflet states, "I will continue to oppose the incinerator at New Barnfield". I attended many of the HCC meetings and HAI demos, and I'm at a loss to know how he has opposed it in the past.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on March 08, 2013, 03:03:54 pm
Correction to earlier post: the school will be empty once they complete the move
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: epiphany on March 08, 2013, 04:44:01 pm
Stuaart Pile's election leaflet states, "I will continue to oppose the incinerator at New Barnfield". I attended many of the HCC meetings and HAI demos, and I'm at a loss to know how he has opposed it in the past.

Yes, I saw that, and you will notice on the flip side he extols the virtues of county council without
mentioning that same council is the one railroading the incinerator through at every opportunity
and wasting huge amounts of public money in the process.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Local Walker on March 10, 2013, 10:30:08 am
This has probably been mentioned before but the public footpath victory to Branchings Pond has been mentioned in the WHTimes.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on March 10, 2013, 03:52:17 pm
CAMPAIGN V INCINERATOR AT NEW BARNFIELD
UPDATE MARCH 10TH 2013

1. DATES FOR THE PUBLIC INQUIRY INTO VEOLIA’S PLANNING APPLICATION
The Public Inquiry will be held on September 10th 1013, for up to 12 working days. ( 4 day week x 3).
The Inspector will then send a report to the Sec of State on or before Dec 16th 2013.
The Sec of State will then make the decision.

2. SENDING COMMENTS TO THE PLANNING INSPECTORATE
This can be done between now and the Public Inquiry.
You may have had a letter or email fairly recently inviting you to send comments.

You probably sent objections to Veolia’s Planning Application during Dec 2011- Jan 2012.
These objections will all go to the Planning Inspector.
However, you are now invited also to send further comments.
 
The simplest way to respond is to say:
 "I/We still stand by the comments that we/I I made in response to the Planning Application (and also to the Waste Site Allocation consultation or any other relevant consultation you have responded to).
You can also add more comments on additional points that you would now like to raise.

We suggest that you look at HAI’s Outline Case (on our website www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)) and select one or two points that are particularly important to you and your family, or to your organisation, perhaps because issues would affect you personally, or because you have particular knowledge of an issue.
It will not be useful to the inquiry just to copy the whole of HAI’s list of points.

Submission to Planning Inspectorate by Computer
If you wish to respond using the computerised system,
1. Go to http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/casesearch.asp (http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/casesearch.asp)

2. Type in the Case Reference “2192045”
and Local Planning Authority “Hertfordshire County Council”

3. On the “Case Search Results” page, click on the Case Reference Number

4. On the “Case Summary” page, click on “comment on this case” and insert your details and your comment.

or
Submission to Planning Inspectorate by Letter
Post your comments to Leanne Palmer, with three copies.
The Planning Inspectorate, 3/02 Kite Wing, Temple Quay House, 2 The Square, Bristol, BS1 6PN.
Give the Case Reference Number 2192045. 

3. WHAT WILL HAPPEN AT THE PUBLIC INQUIRY
“Rule 6” parties will put their case to the Planning Inspector, through legal representatives.

New Barnfield Action Fund has already been accepted as a “Rule 6 party”, and so has English Heritage. It is likely that a few other organisations (e.g. WelHat Borough Council) will also put the case against an incinerator at New Barnfield as rule 6 parties.

New Barnfield Action Fund will be represented by a barrister, who will put our case and cross-examine witnesses. (Our own witnesses, and witnesses for Veolia and for HCC).

(New Barnfield Action Fund is made up representatives of Hatfield Against Incineration, North Mymms Green Belt Society, Hatfield Town Council, and Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council. It is chaired by Grant Shapps M.P., and the Secretary is Paul Zukowskyj. The leaders of all three main political parties on WelHat Borough Council are on NBAF.)

During the Public Inquiry there is likely also to be a Community Evening, at which local residents and representatives of local organisations can put their case without need for legal representation.
 
4. FUND RAISING

Donations to NBAF are needed please, as the legal costs of the Public Inquiry will be high. Our target is to raise another £15,000.
Please give generously to New Barnfield Action Fund, and send cheques to Neil Robinson, Treasurer, New Barnfield Action Fund, c/o Maynard House,The Common, Hatfield, Herts,AL10 ONF.
You can also transfer money to the NBAF account at Barclays Bank, Potters Bar, sort code 209254, account number 63481824
5. RESULT OF PETITION TO HCC WASTE MANAGEMENT PANEL Thurs March 7th
Many thanks to all the people who signed the petition to HCC last weekend. Your signatures enabled Mick Bee of Herts WithOut Waste to present the petition and to speak for 3 minutes.
The petition asked HCC for up-to-date costs of the proposed incinerator. Mick Bee explained that HCC’s claimed “savings” compared to the current waste management system cannot be correct, as they are based on old figures. The tonnage of Herts waste that is not recycled or composted has fallen greatly in the last 6 years, and LATS penalties on land-filled waste are now abolished.
HCC officers Richard Brown and Ray Greenall have now said that they will review their figures in the light of the figures supplied by Herts WoW, and will report on this within 10 days.
6. PLEASE LOOK AT OUR WEBSITE FOR FURTHER UPDATES ON THE CAMPAIGN
LATEST NEWS IS PUT ON THE NEWSBLOG SECTION
www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk (http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk)
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Paul Zukowskyj on March 10, 2013, 09:11:50 pm
Hi,

I've not been on here for a while, apologies, been a little busy with a few things......

Cathy let me know that there'd been some concern expressed about funds for fighting the incinerator. I thought I'd better come see myself and perhaps answer any concerns.

NBAF is an 'umbrella' organisation and is indeed entirely cross party. The 'board' consists of all political group leaders from WHBC, a rep from the town council, a rep from the North Mymms Green Belt Society and a number of others. I'm the secretary, and the treasurer, Neil, is also the treasurer from the NMGBS.

Grant is the chair. When we set this up, he offered me the chance to be co-chair, I turned him down as I thought it right that our MP should be the sole head of the group.

All three officers have to sign cheques in order to pay out funds. This was agreed so no possible bias or misuse could occur. Since Neil is treasurer of the NMGBS and they've donated very substantially indeed, I understand he'd be breaking all sorts of laws if he agreed to anything not completely above board, never mind the morality aspects.

I understand the concern about sending cheques to Maynard House, but unless they're payable to the Conservative Association, they would be unable to cash them. All funds going there WILL get to the NBAF and we'll use them, every penny, to fight the incinerator.

I also don't believe Grant would divert funds. Not only has he put a significant effort into fighting this plant, he's been scrupulous in dealing with the funds from the very outset. Since we were in the middle of the MP's expenses scandal at the time we set up NBAF, I suspect how we dealt with the funds and getting that right was something he wanted to ensure was done more scrupulously than might strictly be necessary, hence the structure we have at the minute which involves a lot of postage!

On a final note, given the sums we're talking about here are probably hundreds or possibly into the low thousands (per item, per day or per potential 'fiddle'), do you really think a wealthy cabinet minister on a pay well in excess of £100k/yr would risk their job and potentially entire career to divert funds from a campaign they support? I may not agree with Grant's politics, but he's no fool, and only an utter fool would risk all like that for a gain he could afford from his small change.

I really don't believe, and I think common sense confirms it, that any money would be misused or diverted.

I do hope that reassures everyone that everything is above board, however if you REALLY don't like addressing stuff to Maynard House, you can send your donations to me (1, Chelwood Ave, AL10 0RD) or give it to Cathy, Kieran or me. We're hoping to get some 'collection tins' out soon in local shops, or send it to the Welwyn Hatfield Times.

Best regards,

Paul
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Buster on April 05, 2013, 08:39:22 am
The Welwyn Hatfield Times have an article this week headed "Town Hall boost for incinerator fighting fund?".  Apparantly WelHat Borough Council will debate next Tuesday whether to make £100,000 cash and £25 000 in staff time available for the Public Inquiry to fight the Incinerator.
It ends by asking people to let the paper know if they agree with this money being used in this way.
 
Obviously an opportunity for all residents to express their view on how their money is spent.  All responses should be sent to letters@whtimes.co.uk
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 05, 2013, 11:12:55 am
Peanuts, when you consider that Herts County Council is spending millions on just the 'temporary' move of the Special Needs school:

16/05/11 Hertfordshire County Council's Education and Skills Cabinet meeting minutes: “6.1 The current estimate of costs is a top limit of £3.9m, with a residual value of £1.0m after the proposed three year occupation. This represents poor value for money for a temporary relocation of a school. It is only being considered in the context of the bigger financial risk of preventing the granting of planning permission for the waste facility.”

http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/cabinet/15931002/ (http://www.hertsdirect.org/your-council/civic_calendar/cabinet/15931002/)

Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on April 09, 2013, 06:52:04 pm
I have just heard that the Environment Agency have issued a permit to Veolia for the incinerator. Not the news we wanted to hear.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Editor on April 09, 2013, 07:20:19 pm
I have just heard that the Environment Agency have issued a permit to Veolia for the incinerator. Not the news we wanted to hear.

So where does that news leave the campaign?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: LMS on April 09, 2013, 07:41:05 pm
I don't know, but presumably if the EA are giving it the thumbs up, it must influence the Planning Inspector? What do others think?
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: trekbat on April 09, 2013, 08:32:14 pm
From the moment it was learnt (at one of the EA open sessions) that they were only looking at what was on the application and not taking into account its operating environment ie. existing high levels of traffic pollution it seemed likely that they would grant planning permission.

I imagine the school will be 'temporarily' moved before the planning inspector inquiry starts as well.

Hopefully, it shouldn't make a difference to deciding whether the process was flawed but given the increasingly murky way politics seems to work I'd be reluctant to bet against it.

A legal challenge remains on the cards as a last defence to stop it being built. However, even if that obstacle was overcome, it still should be possible - IF the will existed - to mount a challenge to close it down on the grounds of impact on air quality (perhaps even set up our own monitoring station in Hatfield).

Still, it may not be necessary, most of the HAI people I've spoken to seem quietly confident of winning the argument at the inquiry.

With local elections around the corner, I suggest people make sure they mention it as a key issue to every prospective / sitting candidate or canvasser that asks for their vote.
Title: Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
Post by: Cathy on April 11, 2013, 05:27:47 pm
Misleading leaflets distributed by local Conservatives

 Hatfield against Incineration and many anti-incineration campaigners are gravely concerned about election leaflets distributed by the local Conservative Party recently.

One leaflet, from Conservative County Councillor Stuart Pile, claims that “Stuart Pile stops incinerator in its tracks” and a leaflet from Conservative election candidate Martin Marks claims that “Conservatives stop incinerator in its tracks”.

This is extremely misleading, and it is important that all those opposed to an incinerator at New Barnfield are aware of the true situation.

Unfortunately the incinerator, proposed by Veolia and given planning permission by the Conservative county councillors at a meeting last October, has not been stopped. It is on hold. The County Council’s decision has been “called-in” and the planning application will now be considered at an independent Public Inquiry, starting on September 10th.

At the Inquiry the case against the incinerator will be put by New Barnfield Action Fund, and also by Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council, and by Gascoyne Cecil Estates (Hatfield House) and English Heritage. Each of these “Rule 6 Parties” will have legal representation.

New Barnfield Action Fund is an umbrella group including Hatfield against Incineration, North Mymms Green Belt Society, Hatfield Town Council and WHBC. Its chair is Grant Shapps M.P. and its Secretary is Paul Zukowskyj, and the leaders of all three political parties on WHBC are on the committee. So it has members from the main parties and members not aligned to any political party.

NBAF still needs donations to fund its legal representation at the Public Inquiry, so we are alarmed at any suggestion that the battle is already won. Members of HAI have been working hard since the call-in to prepare