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Author Topic: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms  (Read 560226 times)

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Offline Editor

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1020 on: November 22, 2014, 03:50:33 pm »
Good to see the flyers being delivered door-to-door. Great effort by the BPRA volunteers.
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Offline Mermaid

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1021 on: November 23, 2014, 05:30:30 pm »
A huge "thank you" to all our volunteers who have battled through the rain yesterday and today to get the flyers delivered, and thank you to all the shops who have put up our posters   :)
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1022 on: November 24, 2014, 08:48:15 am »
The CPRE - Campaign for the Protection of Rural England - has published its report today on brownfield sites across England:

"England has space for at least 1 million homes on brownfield land"

http://www.cpre.org.uk/media-centre/latest-news-releases/item/3784-england-has-space-for-at-least-1-million-homes-on-brownfield-land
 

Offline epiphany

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1023 on: November 24, 2014, 09:18:05 am »
Once again flooding is a local issue, makes you wonder what it will be like if large swathes of the surrounding Green Belt are built on.
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1024 on: November 24, 2014, 09:34:17 am »
Once again flooding is a local issue, makes you wonder what it will be like if large swathes of the surrounding Green Belt are built on.

I am guessing it would lead to soggy gardens. Our house was built in 1935. We have a lovely back garden that slopes downhill to the south. After rain the bottom bit becomes too soggy to walk on. At times pools of water build up along the southern fence. I am guessing the natural drainage of the land from Moffats Lane would have been downhill and to the south. I suppose the building of houses on the south side of Moffats and on Bluebridge Avenue upset that natural flow. But would environmental issues such as land drainage be taken into account when planners and developers consider suitable plots? Perhaps a question for Thursday's BPRA meeting on local housing development where locals are invited to discuss the areas identified by WHC for possible development? The issue of the impact of more local housing can be discuss in the existing thread.

[float=left]Where will the new houses be built?[/float]
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Offline James Bentall

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1025 on: November 24, 2014, 09:53:50 am »
Quote
Land Drainage is a complex area of responsibility. As a rule of thumb, however, the general approach is that the landowner is responsible for the land drainage of their land. This can create problems since legally a person owning lower-level ground has to accept natural land drainage water (that is, spring water, ground water or surface water run-off) from adjacent land at a higher level. The exception to this is where the owner of that adjacent land has carried out “improvements” such that the run-off from the land cannot be considered ‘natural’ – for example if the entire back garden has been paved over. Such natural run-off does not include water from gutter drainpipes.

Information taken from http://www.npt.gov.uk/PDF/landdrainageresponsibilities.pdf, embedded below.

As the quote above demonstrates, any development which takes place the developer is under a legal obligation to ensure that drainage does not become a problem for any other lower lying area. Most modern housing developments take this into account and I see no reason why the proposed solutions around the village would be any different.

<a href="http://www.npt.gov.uk/PDF/landdrainageresponsibilities.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.npt.gov.uk/PDF/landdrainageresponsibilities.pdf</a>

Edited to fix code for font and to embed the pdf.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 10:24:04 am by Editor »
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1026 on: November 24, 2014, 10:14:56 am »
Hi Mermaid,

I thought it worth embedding the report here for future ref and for those who don't manage to click through from the link (embedded below). Timely in view of Thursday’s local meeting on the issue.

[float=left]England has space for at least 1 million homes on brownfield land - Campaign to Protect Rural England [/float]


<a href="http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/housing-and-planning/housing/item/download/3840" target="_blank">http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/housing-and-planning/housing/item/download/3840</a>
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Offline peppermint

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1027 on: November 24, 2014, 10:52:22 am »
I dread to think the impact building on the field west of BP station will have on us down on warrengate road :(
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1028 on: November 24, 2014, 12:05:45 pm »
Sadly, the objection to development of areas liable to flooding, may not be considered valid by the council if they and the developers decide to adopt an underground storm water storage tank system underneath any new development.



 

Offline motherchuck

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1029 on: November 24, 2014, 01:29:29 pm »
I dread to think the impact building on the field west of BP station will have on us down on warrengate road :(

Peppermint, building on the field west of BPark station (BrP4) will be a disaster not just for the residents of
Warrengate Road but all residents of the area including the new residents if development at BrP4 is allowed

Yesterday the Environment Agency closed the flood barrier on Warrengate Rd after sending flood warnings to the residents. This of course did not prevent flooding in Warrengate Rd and Bradmore Lane near the junction resulting in broken down cars, breakdown trucks and the AA. The water can be 4ft deep after heavy rain. Bradmore Lane was also flooded near the top next to BrP4 as was Station Road towards Welham Green and this was after only one day of rain.
  The legal obligation of the developer that James Bentall refers to prevent water flowing downhill should be interesting to WHCouncil as a continuing source of revenue everytime the houses at Warrengate Rd,
Water End, are flooded by the rising waters of Mymms Brook caused by building 300 houses on the field BrP4.
  It is almost impossible to hold back water. If you want proof ask the Environment Agency (01707 632325) or King Canute (try a psychic)

Edited to include source referred to in quote.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 01:37:39 pm by Editor »
 

Offline Mermaid

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1030 on: November 24, 2014, 02:09:19 pm »
So, might WHBC be able to argue that an underground storm water storage system, would in fact help the existing residents who get flooded, as well as protecting new residents?
 

Offline epiphany

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1031 on: November 24, 2014, 02:23:23 pm »
Sadly, the objection to development of areas liable to flooding, may not be considered valid by the council if they and the developers decide to adopt an underground storm water storage tank system underneath any new development.



I can't help wondering what happens when we have a 'perfect storm' and the following events unfold.

1) A period of protracted rain.

2) The underground tanks are filled to capacity.

3) We experience an 'extreme weather event' - A large volume of rainfall in a short period of time (these events are becoming more common and are predicted to increase).

Surely in this situation, the rate of surface water runoff which could affect surrounding areas would be far greater from a developed site than an undeveloped one, particularly if the site is currently capable of holding a large volume of standing water?
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1032 on: November 24, 2014, 02:26:50 pm »
I have merged this thread with an existing thread on this topic for contextual reasons. None of the posts has been lost.
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Offline James Bentall

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1033 on: November 24, 2014, 06:02:34 pm »
Surely in this situation, the rate of surface water runoff which could affect surrounding areas would be far greater from a developed site than an undeveloped one, particularly if the site is currently capable of holding a large volume of standing water?

As my quote above, I believe (although happy to be corrected!) that the landowner of the new development would be liable for any damage etc caused to any surrounding area, so it would be in their interests to ensure this does not happen - whether by using underground storage tanks or other solutions.
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
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Offline epiphany

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1034 on: November 24, 2014, 06:21:13 pm »
Surely in this situation, the rate of surface water runoff which could affect surrounding areas would be far greater from a developed site than an undeveloped one, particularly if the site is currently capable of holding a large volume of standing water?

As my quote above, I believe (although happy to be corrected!) that the landowner of the new development would be liable for any damage etc caused to any surrounding area, so it would be in their interests to ensure this does not happen - whether by using underground storage tanks or other solutions.

Can you imagine the legal and other complexities involved, in trying to prove that a particular development in isolation, may or may not of created suffiicient additional flood water to cause flooding which may or may not have otherwise occurred?

I do not think any developer will be losing sleep over that one, and it would certainly not be any consolation for any home owner who would prefer not to have been flooded in the first place!
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1035 on: November 24, 2014, 06:57:16 pm »
There's more information about requirements for developers in this document:

http://evidence.environment-agency.gov.uk/FCERM/Libraries/FCERM_Project_Documents/Rainfall_Runoff_Management_for_Developments_-_Revision_E.sflb.ashx

An interesting paragraph however is...

Quote
SuDS are aimed at addressing both treatment and hydraulic management of stormwater runoff. It is stressed that the Floods and Water Management Act 2010 requires the use of SuDS. Although storage can also be provided using underground storage systems, the Environment Agency very much prefer the use of surface level, vegetative systems to be used for conveyance and temporary storage (swales, basins and ponds etc) if possible.

The summary page suggests that in order to meet national guidelines, any new development of the nature being proposed must ensure runoff rates and volumes discharged are approximate to the site greenfield response over a range of storm frequencies of occurrence (usually able to cope with a 1 in 100 year type event)

Edited to fix quote box font.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:54:00 pm by Editor »
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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1036 on: November 24, 2014, 07:48:15 pm »
The summary page suggests that in order to meet national guidelines, any new development of the nature being proposed must ensure runoff rates and volumes discharged are approximate to the site greenfield response over a range of storm frequencies of occurrence (usually able to cope with a 1 in 100 year type event)

Thanks for the info, James. Very interesting, but I still do not think this answers my ' Perfect Storm' scenario, particularly after reading this caveat on Page 23.

In theory, therefore, the 100 year flood runoff from a site should be controlled to both greenfield volume and rates of runoff to ensure the same conditions occur downstream after development. In practice although this is virtually impossible to achieve for all rainfall events, this should be the objective in managing site runoff from rainfall.

Edited to fix quote box
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:55:54 pm by Editor »
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1037 on: November 25, 2014, 11:06:22 am »
Has everyone who is planning to attend the Brookmans Park Residents Association meeting on Thursday had a chance to study the pull-together on the areas being considered? If not you might want to take a quick look at the piece below, note down the code for the plots of land, and read up on the local authority's assessment of whether the plots are considered to be 'more favourable’, ‘finely balanced’, or ‘less favourable’ for development.

[float=left]Where will the new houses be built?[/float]
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Offline 6546837

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1038 on: November 25, 2014, 04:04:23 pm »
I find the way the report decides if an area is finely balanced, favourable or less favourable pretty wishy washy.  A lot of the wording is identical on some areas but you get different results?  They will all have an impact on the way the area looks and feels but which is the best worst case?


I have a view that the site closest to the station is one the village should get behind IF (and only IF) we have to have new housing in BP.  My thinking is that this would mean that although the village would be expanding, it would do so in just one area and not lots of smaller plots of 100 odd houses.  If we start building on all areas with 100 here and 100 there the whole village will lose all its character in my opinion with new build estates popping up everywhere.  At least on this site it is concentrated and concentrated close to the Green centre.


I appreciate all the comments on flooding and this needs to be addressed when the houses are built.  Sadly the position we are in seems to be that BP will need to take new houses so all we can do now is try to get our voice heard as residents as to what is the best area to accommodate them given that the government says we need to.


My last point is on schooling.  If we have another 300 houses with many having children, how will the local school cope with its tiny intake of one class per year at Primary level?  Could this result in children living in the village not getting a place?  This would be a terrible situation.


As I say, I think we have to accept we will be getting new houses and get our ducks in order as residents as to where we think is the best worst case scenario so we at least get some say.  We can then put our heads behind ensuring that area is built upon sympathetically and with all the right drainage etc... 
 

Offline southbury

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1039 on: November 25, 2014, 04:26:28 pm »
I could not agree more with the above. We need practical solutions to the current and ongoing Housing Crisis. We need to accept that all communities potentially have a role to play. Irrational objections to inevitable developments will only mean that we forgo the opportunity to work in partnership with the Council to minimise the environmental impacts of any development. I also think it is imperative that Social Housing is built and we welcome it. I hope it coms in the form of affordable (sic.) family homes that can't be later sold off to Private Landlords for a short term profit in order that our children may just, as a long shot, be able to raise their families locally shouydl they wish to.
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1040 on: November 25, 2014, 04:34:57 pm »
My last point is on schooling.  If we have another 300 houses with many having children, how will the local school cope with its tiny intake of one class per year at Primary level?  Could this result in children living in the village not getting a place?  This would be a terrible situation.

From memory, two of the proposed developments (the one over the bridge by the station and the one at the end of Bradmore Way) include new school provision. Although, FYI, the current intake at Brookmans Park Primary School is 1.5 classes a year.

James
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Offline epiphany

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1041 on: November 25, 2014, 04:50:53 pm »
Hi All,

I am new to the forum.

I know there has been lots of discussion on building in Brookman’s Park which I have looked through but I still couldn't really answer the following question.  Will the field South of The Gardens (I believe currently owned by the RVC) be developed into a housing estate?

I am a resident concerned about the negative impact on the value of my house this may have and more importantly the fantastic view I currently have.  On top of this, I like many others do not have the appetite for the village to be expanded onto green belt land.  Any information greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks,


I find the way the report decides if an area is finely balanced, favourable or less favourable pretty wishy washy.  A lot of the wording is identical on some areas but you get different results?  They will all have an impact on the way the area looks and feels but which is the best worst case?


I have a view that the site closest to the station is one the village should get behind IF (and only IF) we have to have new housing in BP.  My thinking is that this would mean that although the village would be expanding, it would do so in just one area and not lots of smaller plots of 100 odd houses.  If we start building on all areas with 100 here and 100 there the whole village will lose all its character in my opinion with new build estates popping up everywhere.  At least on this site it is concentrated and concentrated close to the Green centre.


I appreciate all the comments on flooding and this needs to be addressed when the houses are built.  Sadly the position we are in seems to be that BP will need to take new houses so all we can do now is try to get our voice heard as residents as to what is the best area to accommodate them given that the government says we need to.


My last point is on schooling.  If we have another 300 houses with many having children, how will the local school cope with its tiny intake of one class per year at Primary level?  Could this result in children living in the village not getting a place?  This would be a terrible situation.


As I say, I think we have to accept we will be getting new houses and get our ducks in order as residents as to where we think is the best worst case scenario so we at least get some say.  We can then put our heads behind ensuring that area is built upon sympathetically and with all the right drainage etc... 


Unfortunately everybody has an agenda.



 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1042 on: November 25, 2014, 05:05:10 pm »
 :)
I see how that may have come across but it was not agenda driven.  I have actually just sold my house on The Gardens to relocate in the village as we needed to downsize after being here many years and my decision to sell was 100% sped up by the potential of development (as per my post) as i believe it would have impacted my house value and I am not ashamed to admit that.  So we sold.  I still care about the village though.


I am moving to the otuskirts of BP in fact offically classed as Welham Green now so in fact where i have proposed is even nearer where I will now live but I am simply pointing out my view on backing 1 or 2 sites (wherever they are) rather than having lots of small ones.  The one by the  station is 300 (the biggest) so i think would have the least visual impact on the village.


Everyone will have their opinion and reasons for so and I have one too and am happy to share that with those willing to listen. 


Looking forward to Thursday's meeting where I will reiterate my view on minimal developments to meet the numbers.



 

Offline larrylamb

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1043 on: November 25, 2014, 06:11:23 pm »
Will the council/developers consult with the residents of the unadopted roads in BP and propose to contribute to the increased maintenance due to additional traffic and subsequent wear and tear on their roads?
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1044 on: November 25, 2014, 07:06:45 pm »
   The terms 'more or less favourable' and 'finely balanced' are opinions that carry no weight in planning law and should be ignored as a guide as they are at odds with NPPF and PPG guidance. A planning inspector at the forthcoming public enquiry will give no weight to such descriptions.

   The suggested figure of 380 houses should also be ignored as proportional distribution is not a deliverable or recognised approach to Plan Making.
   Housing distribution and site allocation will be based on sustainability, availability and deliverability not proportional distribution.

   'Affordable' housing means housing for people on the WHC waiting list not houses that will be for sale.

   The sites that will have the least visual impact on the village are Friday Grove (BrP9) and Raybrook Farm (BrP10) as they are the only sites screened by trees around and inside the sites.
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1045 on: November 25, 2014, 10:07:37 pm »
   The sites that will have the least visual impact on the village are Friday Grove (BrP9) and Raybrook Farm (BrP10) as they are the only sites screened by trees around and inside the sites.
How long will those survive I wonder? No doubt the foot pavements would be extended over Blue Bridge and up the hill and conflict with the hedgerow alongside the road.
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1046 on: November 26, 2014, 08:44:55 am »
The purpose of Thursday's meeting is to update residents on changes to the WHBC Local Plan since our last public meeting on it in August and to give the chance for residents to ask questions. It is important to stress that what you will see and hear on Thursday may not be exactly what is published for consultation in January as we still do not know for sure if all the sites identified for possible development will go through for consultation. The CHPP (Cabinet Housing and Planning Panel) has two more meetings to go - on the 11th December they present the Draft Local Plan and on the 17th they ratify the Draft Local Plan. The WHBC Local Plan will then be published for public consultation in early January.

It is the Brookmans Park Residents Association intention to hold another public meeting in January, when the Local Plan is published, and we have invited Grant Shapps to be present at that meeting.



 

Offline southbury

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1047 on: November 26, 2014, 10:24:41 am »
If Grant has been invited to attend does that mean he will be there  in a political capacity ? I am not questioning his obvious right to attend as a resident but I think this issue should not be a political one at all. It's about local homes for local people and finding a solution to the chronic housing problem that will have as few negative impacts on residents and the envionment as possible. This should be a community debate and not a political one.
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1048 on: November 26, 2014, 10:41:08 am »
The BPRA is a non-political organisation and our public meetings are put on to keep residents informed.

I think your comment about 'local homes for local people' may be premature, as we do not yet know exactly what 'affordable housing' will mean for Brookmans Park. It is possible - as Motherchuck has said above - that the homes will be for those on WHBC's housing register. I would go further and pose the possibility that the London boroughs may wish to strike an agreement with local councils on the edge of London, to take council tenants from the London waiting lists.
 

Offline southbury

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #1049 on: November 26, 2014, 10:55:48 am »
Understood on tehe BPRA's non political stance. I am a member myself and I am a Member of the Green Belt but it does not answer my question about Grant's capacity. Nevermind. We like many of our peers cane to Brookmans Park from Enfield with our young family. In Enfield we  lived in a street with 32 houses on it and two other families that were residents there with us  who now also  live in Brookmans Park. Speak to anyone on the Station platform or in the pub and you'll here  the same story, whilst not exclusively, many times over; " Barnet.. Enfield .. Cheshunt.. " I guess 'local' depends on your definition and context. Many residents from 'outside' make the biggest contributions to our community. We need new houses.. we should not be 'afraid' of oustiders. Scary as it sounds I came from ' that London' , heaven forbid I don't vote Tory ( over my dead body) and even more unbelievably house prices have not plummeted as a result of our arrival.
 

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