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Author Topic: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms  (Read 562777 times)

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Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #120 on: January 06, 2004, 02:51:39 pm »
Sorry about the length of this but you did ask for an interpretation.  The whole planning process is being revised by the government so the Herts Structure Plan update is on hold, and Welwyn Hatfield’s current update of its District Plan may be the last one in the country under current procedures.

Who would be a planner!  Government tells each region to build xxx new houses by 2011 and planners have the unfortunate task of putting them somewhere, but where?  Land in this county is very expensive so there is a major problem in building housing that the average Joe can afford to rent or buy.  The average Joe in this case is the shop assistant, hospital maintenance worker, school caretaker, and all other essential but not highly paid jobs.  They are unlikely to afford to travel great distances to get to work, so they need to live near their work.

From a sustainable and economical view it is sensible to enlarge existing towns etc to reduce travel, and make better use of existing facilities.  However it would result in the ‘London Borough of Stevenage’ by 2011 or soon after.  We like village life, and do not want to live in a town or city. That is why in 2003 the NM Green Belt Soc campaigned strongly in opposing landowners proposals to put housing on three areas of Green Belt land adjoining Welham Green.  Is it a losing battle?  Who knows but many local people feel it is a battle worth fighting.

In purely housing terms it makes sense to build 700 houses on 65 acres at Welham Green where there is an established community with shops, schools, doctors, churches, recreation facilities, rail and bus services, an industrial estate for local employment, etc.  But can these facilities, and the roads, sewers etc cope with a 50% increase in that village?

Hertfordshire is very attractive because the Green Belt has stopped London and existing towns from expanding into the countryside.  ATG is right in saying that ‘only’ 10% of the countryside would be used for housing, but that national figure includes the Lake District, Dartmoor, Salisbury Plain, etc.  What % of Herts countryside would disappear forever under concrete?  Start thinking ‘London Borough of Stevenage’ for a better perspective than the national 10% concept.

The 2002 draft update of Welwyn Hatfield District Plan –appendix 7 – shows a requirement for 2592 houses between 1.4.2001 and 31.3.2011.  To meet this figure a potential supply has been identified of 2,816 houses.  This includes 1,160 at Hatfield Aerodrome (excluding existing approvals) plus another 1,406 and 250 ‘windfall sites’.  The 1,406 includes 263 on Sir John Newsom school site WGC, 218 at Chequersfield WGC, 128 at SKB site, Ridgeway WGC, and 88 at Hilltop, High View, Hatfield.  

catbirder

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2004, 01:57:23 am »
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but if the proposals to take land at Welham Green out of the Green Belt are rejected, is there a possibility of the developers appealing?
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2004, 01:45:48 pm »
In summer 2003 there was the Public Inquiry stage of the review of the District Plan.  The Inspector will report this Spring and make his recommendations.  WH Council decide which recommendations to accept, and then produce a final draft District Plan which will go out for final consulation, most likely in the summer.  Developers can object at that stage.  

Then the final version of the District Plan is produced and agreed by the Council.  And that is it until the next review.

Planning applications CAN be made which do not conform to the new District Plan, but very special circumstances have to be given as to why the application should be approved.  

Hope that explains it OK

catbirder

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2004, 02:01:26 am »
Thank you very much, Bobcat.   Could I please ask:

1.   If the Inspector recommends the 700 houses at Welham Green, and the Council decide not to accept his recommendation, can the developers appeal?  

2.  If the Inspector doesn't recommend these houses, and the Council doesn't include them in the final plan, can the developers appeal?

3.  If the answer to either of these is yes, have you any idea of the time scale before the final plan is published?

4.  Should I address these questions to you via your email?


 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2004, 02:40:31 pm »
Thanks for the questions.
WH Council (WHC) does not have to accept the recommendations of the Planning Inspector.  (This may change soon ).  The final draft revised District Plan will go out for public consulation most likely this summer.  Last minute changes can arise from that, and then the final version goes for Council approval before the end 2004.

Developers etc can put in planning applications which are not in accordance with the District Plan, but stand a good chance of being refused permission.  They can then appeal, which will be decided by a Planning Inspector, who may refer to John Prescott for the final decision.  Changes to the Green Belt boundary have to be approved by John Prescott's office.  Keith Hill, Minister for Housing and Planning has recently said the government wishes to continue protecting Green Belt land, or words to that effect.

You can e-mail me direct anytime, but I suspect that the many readers of this thread would be interested in the discussion.

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2004, 09:40:18 am »
Bob,

What do you make of reports that the governement might phase out green belts and replace them with national parks? A report in the Guardian said ...
Quote
In one of the most radical initiatives, No 10 is looking at addressing the chronic housing shortage by scrapping postwar green-belt building controls in return for setting up national parks.

Ministers believe the population trends are so clear that the green belts will have to be relaxed. They are already so eroded and of questionable environmental significance that it may be better to offer a larger, more coherent, set of protected parks.

Here is some strong reaction to that, again from the Guardian online.
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Offline john

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2004, 12:54:43 pm »
How history DOES repeat itself ... !?    as it was in the 'Thirties and early 'Forties when (as a result of ribbon development and urban sprawl in to the countryside ... that has now become regarded as "accepted" Brookmans Park, Little Heath, ... and MANY other parts of the South East) the Government started on such a policy  by buying up and creating such parks  (eg   Thorndon & Weald near Brentwood, Lullingstone, ...)
O tempora !  o mores !
 

Offline Johnny Redd

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #127 on: February 08, 2004, 10:36:56 pm »
I humbly apologise if this is old ground however:-

I (speed) read in the MoS this week that the residential development intended in the M11 corridor has now grown to 500,000+ new houses in a corridor from the A1 across to as far as Suffolk and Norfolk.

Now that Mr Johnny Prescott, is a pet project!!!!

Is this purely media hype and can anyone add any meat to this particular bone.

regards.
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #128 on: February 09, 2004, 05:01:42 pm »
An ongoing saga unfortunately.
Saturday's Telegraph reported on page 6 that the CPRE (Campaign to Protect Rural England) says John P plans 500,000 between the Wash and the Thames by 2021.  Most growth would be the M11 corridor covering north London, Stansted and Cambridge.

In total the plan is for 900,000 more homes by 2031

Herts figure will increase from 50,000 to 72,000. 60% built on brownfield sites and the rest on green field and Green Belt.  Makes you think!  Where are they all going to go?  Who would be a planner.  

Offline jet

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #129 on: February 09, 2004, 06:08:04 pm »
Its all to do with the incoming tide of more E. Europeans coming here from May onwards.
The money to rebuild our roads etc. is being missapropriated to finance the false unsustanable infrastructure to house them.
This government wishes to destroy S. England.
regards,
jet
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #130 on: February 11, 2004, 10:15:12 am »
Quote
Herts figure will increase from 50,000 to 72,000. 60% built on brownfield sites and the rest on green field and Green Belt.  Makes you think!  Where are they all going to go?  Who would be a planner.

More on this is published on the HertsDirect site this morning. It says...
Quote
Hertfordshire under threat
Hertfordshire could end up with 72,000 extra houses by 2021 – the equivalent of two towns the size of St Albans. The county is among the worst hit in plans to build 496,000 extra houses in the East of England over the next 17 years.

Click here for the full article
« Last Edit: February 11, 2004, 10:15:52 am by admin »
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Offline eric

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #131 on: March 18, 2004, 12:04:17 pm »
Just to point to a thought-provoking piece in one of today's broadsheets by Boris Johnson ...

" I suppose hypocrisy is a vice endemic to the human race. But in this country there is nothing that excites our natural talent for humbug more than the question of planning.

The Englishman will lament passing of the nice old shops that gave life to so many town centres. He will rail at the philistine politicians who gave planning permission for the out-of-town superstores that have done so much to rip the heart out of those adjacent towns.

But given the choice, on a Saturday morning, of waiting for some smocked codger to reach him down a tin of beans from some dusty wooden shelf, or whizzing round Tesco, or Waitrose, or some other gleaming temple of gammon, and piling his trolley with twice the goods in half the time and at half the cost, the good old English hypocrite goes straight for the supermarket.

The freeborn Englishman will curse every time his coccyx is shaken by a speed bump. Why, oh why, he will demand, are the local authorities permitted to put these monstrous impediments in the Queen's highway?  But wait... If it turns out he has the chance to cause one of these infernal hummocks to be erected in his own street, so protecting his children from idiots who drive too fast, and perhaps (whisper it) increasing the value of his own property, what does the freeborn English hypocrite do?  He goes for the bump every time.

And when we come to the building of houses other than our own, we attain, as a nation, our most dizzying pitch of intellectual dishonesty. With one breath we grieve for the shortage of "affordable housing". We bewail the lack of nurses, or young police officers, or bus drivers, or even bartenders, who find it so difficult to afford accommodation in London and the South-East.

But as soon as we are told that there is a solution at hand, and that "affordable houses" are to be plonked in the vicinity of our own, we become quite incoherent with anger; not just because of the loss of amenity, the uprooting of those ancient elms, or the threat to the mating habits of the great crested grebes which - or so we assert until we are blue in the face - depend entirely on that open field next door if they are to achieve the slightest romantic feelings toward one another.
No, we object also because we fear that the new arrivals could have an adverse effect on the value of our property.

Remember dear departed chain-smoking Thatcherite Nicholas Ridley, who succeeded in relaxing some green belt protections, and who caustically called his opponents Nimbies?    And do you remember what happened when some poor serf wanted to build a bungalow near Castle Ridley? Riddles went through the roof, which was quite a feat considering the size of his schloss. Not in my backyard, he squealed, and how we all laughed.

But it is that central muddle, in all our hearts, which is paralysing the British housing market ...





 

Offline trinity

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #132 on: March 18, 2004, 10:14:05 pm »
Quote
Just to point to a thought-provoking piece in one of today's broadsheets by Boris Johnson ...


Nice one :-)

I can laugh at that in part because I'm not English. On the other hand it isn't necessarily the case that the English are being particularly hypocritical, because there *are* things like administered planning rules, and there *are* things like governments who can come up with nostrums like "we have a policy of building 100,000 homes a year".

The only real alternatives are to do away with all of that, and to let the market decide everything (in which case Mr Johnson's Englishman would want the government back to counter the short-term economic wreckage caused by not being able to get bus drivers and binmen), or to do away with market-driven property prices (in which case those who have bought in during the overinflated last couple of years will squeal.

Under those circumstances, and where it is "the government's" problem, it is an entirely natural human reaction to want both to have ones cake and eat it. It isn't particularly hypocritical, and it isn't uniquely English.

 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2004, 11:01:12 am »
I haven't visited this web-site for some time and am always surprised at how excellent it really is. On this Greenbelt subject I find the debate extraordinary, we are to build houses in one of the most expensive areas of the country to accommodate lower paid workers (I do not mean lower worth workers) and to allow for E.European worker influx who will fill a shortage of workers in lower paid jobs. Neither group will be able to afford to live here and I would imagine the majority of new houses will be snapped up by "buy to let" owners. I am also a little perplexed as to the long term planning as I read every day (so it seems) that we are too expensive and India and China are the place companies prefer to site. I wonder how long it will take before there is a net exodus from over-regulated and expensive UK by a highly mobile workforce who do not want to be saddled by home ownership ties. Related to this subject is it practical for Schools to build accommodation for staff who are perhaps in the early years of their careers, in the grounds to offer at a subsidised rent. Alternatively we could pay "vocational" workers enough money to allow them to compete with their fellow inhabitants right from the start. It is strange that we value Paramdeics less than Bankers !
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2004, 08:47:42 pm »
Eric did a lot of typing when he quoted Boris Johnson, but unfortunately did not quote the whole article.  Boris then questioned the motives of the report's author - Kate Barker.    He concluded she wanted to reduce house prices in Britain because, in the words of the Treasury, 'the housing market is a high risk factor to the achievement of settled and sustainable convergence with the rest of Europe'.

Therefore, get rid of the bouyant housing market and we might join the euro.  He asks ' shall we lose the green belt for the sake of the euro?'.

I became an active member of the local green belt society because I firmly believe that this country is over-populated, and have seen statistics that show Britian at the higher end of the 'people per square mile' league table already.  OK you can prove anything with statistics, and you only believe those that support your own point of view.

The SE is a magnet drawing in even more of the population.  No wonder the landmass is sinking in the SE - no connection really but worth throwing in!  The reasons for green belts are even more valid today than they were 50 years ago when green belts were created.

Offline jet

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #135 on: March 21, 2004, 01:28:58 pm »
Lets get something straight. This country is not going to be host to lots of quallified foreign workers. As well as desirable contributors to society we will have an ammount of the shirkers of Europe who having exhausted their own systems come here to take what they can get while contributing nothing.
Europes revenge on our country is to turn it into the EUs dustbin, open your eyes, look around, visit our towns and cities.
Look at Hatfield Poly, (sorry Herts uni) it is full of far Eastern students, sponsered by their families and countries to receive a cheap education while our own youngsters hang around street corners.
Lets not forget the health chappie up North who had to resign because he told the truth about the fact that imported nurses etc from the Phillipines in particular were killing more patients than they were saving.
One thing that is taboo in our society is to tell the truth.
Let the plebs drink themselves silly 24/7 seems to be the Governments policy. Remember Rome and its downfall. Non stop entertainment to placate the masses while the enemy was at the gates.
Mind you I could be totally wrong.
regards,
jet
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 03:15:39 pm by jet »
 

Offline eric

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #136 on: March 24, 2004, 11:22:27 am »
No, not a lot of typing Bob, just cut and paste.  And clearly my Cunning Plan succeeded in getting at least one person to look for the whole article and the many real issues
Yes it's great to keep green areas nearby but many people can't admit to themselves the range of costs attached to those benefits and how they disadvantage  some people more than others.    The London Green Belt has just created a situation where poorer people now have to commute long distances from beyond the Green Belt so the GB has just increased commuting, pollution, ghetto-isation, ... and not helped agriculture either (wasn't that one of the original objectives).
But the bit I'm finding most interest in following is the ensuing theory/debate which is running along the lines of   "green belt - less housing - more competition - move in - do up property - prices up - social profile becomes more monied middle class - as savings devalue, people regard housing as best investment -  to keep that investment profitable, make sure supply doesn't increase - therefore say "support the green belt" as that's more socially acceptable than admitting personal motives are economic/greed/    -     "

There now !  I've passed it on to stoke the fires and if THAT doesn't invoke some sort of storm, then ------- ?  
But as to a sensible resolution of peoples' conflicting "agendas" ---- ?   green wedges rather than belts ?

[oh and by the way if Bob you "firmly believe that this country is over-populated" what exactly are you suggesting as the solution there ?

 

Offline Margaret

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #137 on: March 24, 2004, 01:59:17 pm »
Less green belt means less trees etc. and therefore more polution. The human race cannot survive without trees etc. which is why our green belts must be protected at all cost. As to too many people  the obvious answer is to encourage people to have less children not to have more as the government is suggesting so they can look after the older generation!!
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #138 on: March 24, 2004, 06:22:58 pm »
Green Belts have existed for over 50 years so the problem of commuting etc are not new, neither is the drift to the South Esat - I moved from Manchester in 1969.

Emigrate - that is one answer.  Stop immigration is another.  If you can believe the newspapers the Home Office has lost control of immigration.  Apparently they do not have a clue, as witness the Morecambe Bay cocklers.

Also have you noticed that John Prescott has been side-lined.  It is now the Treasury (Gordon Brown) who  approved the Kate Barker  report calling for even more housing (still burying bad news since it was announced on Budget Day), and now approved large stores out of town, rather than in town centres as J Prescott was wanting.  Frightening.  What about 'green' policies of promoting town centres etc, rather than the out of town development which require cars and buses for staff and customers to get there.

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #139 on: March 24, 2004, 06:34:04 pm »
Botheration.  I forgot to answer Eric's point about extending houses etc.  The cost and problems of moving to an existing bigger house are prime reasons for extending your current abode.  Again, you can finger Gordon Brown for increasing stamp duty on buying a house, and for not increasing the threshhold at which stamp duty kicks in.

By memory,  I read a few days ago that the number of house purchases attracting stamp duty has increased from 35% in 1997 to about 75%.  Where can you buy a house or flat for less than about £65,000 above which you pay stamp duty?  

As for green wedges.  Double talk for doing away with fields etc wherever you want to build houses.  Someone else will keep a few fields, but lets build houses here.  

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #140 on: March 25, 2004, 02:50:04 pm »
Hi Bob,

When I read your quote from an earlier post below...

Quote
I became an active member of the local green belt society because I firmly believe that this country is over-populated, and have seen statistics that show Britain at the higher end of the 'people per square mile' league table already.  


... and then this in a later post...

Quote
Emigrate - that is one answer.  Stop immigration is another.  If you can believe the newspapers the Home Office has lost control of immigration.  Apparently they do not have a clue, as witness the Morecambe Bay cocklers.


I wondered how that ties in with the North Mymms District Green Belt Society's aims as outlined on your site's about us page.

They are listed as ...

  • preventing neighbouring towns from merging into one another
  • assisting in safeguarding the countryside from encroachment
  • preserving the setting and special character of historic towns, and
  • checking the unrestricted sprawl of large built-up areas
  • assisting in urban regeneration by encouraging the recycling of derelict and other urban land.

All the above seem to me to be planning issues, not immigration or population explosion issues. Are you saying that green belt societies now take a position on immigration and population growth issues too?
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Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #141 on: March 25, 2004, 09:18:28 pm »
Sorry Dave but I rose to Eric's bait.  Well done Eric!

The Green Belt Soc is very worried about the ever increasing housing requirements by this government.  The figures just keep getting bigger each time an announcement is made.  Where are they going to be built?  The Green Belt is under even more threat than every before.  I know we keep saying that, but it is true.

The views about Gordon Brown usurping John Prescott, immigration, emigration etc are just my own thoughts, for which I do not apologise.  I know you try to keep politics out of this website, but housing is a very political subject.

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #142 on: March 25, 2004, 11:18:46 pm »
Quote
If you can believe the newspapers ...


I think you should write that as:


[size=12]IF[/size] you can believe the newspapers
 

Offline trinity

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #143 on: March 26, 2004, 01:36:17 am »
Oh I think you *can* believe the newspapers. That is just not the same, though, as taking what they print at face value. Newspaper proprietors are all aware of the power that they wield as political entities - it is part of their marketing. OK, so for some it is a lesser part of the marketing mix than tits and bums. For others the "political" arena is less the City of Westminster than of London. But they're all plainly political organisations - and you can believe the *political aim* of an article, campaign or stance, if not always the top-layer of meaning of their words. Newspaper editors and proprietors are every bit as much professional politicians as the bunch in Parliament.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #144 on: March 26, 2004, 02:03:23 am »
Thank God for the media, without them we would be in the dark.
We have to make our own minds up as to what is informed or uninformed.
Facts are that this government is commited to the EU and Federalisation. We are destined to become states within an united state. However unlike the US of A we will not have a democraticaly agreed constitution, It will be a totalitarianist, federal creed which will serve only those who wish to weild power.
Now this government has contracted to accept an influx of migrants who under EU law will have to be accomadated.
The accomadation is your hard paid for homes and countryside.
Of course the politicians are okay, nice homes in nice areas. But now that the urban and green field sites are spoken for the next target is the green belt.
Strange thing is that this government consists mainly of those who come from the North of the UK, their lands are okay. They do however have designs on the properties of the rich SE. The way to take those properties is to make them so expensive to live in that the indigenous ppulation actually ethnically cleanses itself.
You have been warned.
Don't waste your votes on altruisic parties hosted by drunks who advocate under age porn, or 24/7 drinking.
You know it makes sense.
regards,
jet
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 03:11:33 pm by jet »
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #145 on: March 26, 2004, 07:42:23 am »
Quote
I know you try to keep politics out of this website, but housing is a very political subject.


Hi Bob, don't get me wrong, political debate is welcome on this site, in fact many threads are heavily political. What we don't want is political campaigning by politicians on the site. At several points local politicians have been invited discuss local issues and concerns on the site, but none did.

As for the stance of green belt campaigners I was just curious. I had always thought the focus was on the objectives set out in your site. However your references to immigration made me wonder whether this was changing. I was just curious because it seemed a new development to me.
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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #146 on: March 26, 2004, 07:52:40 am »
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Now this government has contracted to accept an influx of wasters who under EU law will have to be accomadated.


jet, what do you mean by an 'influx of wasters'?  
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Offline eric

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #147 on: March 26, 2004, 11:17:15 am »
Sticking with "the green belt" bit for now ---

Margaret:    I admire your honesty  -  "the green belt must be protected at all costs"   -   in declaring you don't care about the decline in public services etc because nurses, teachers and others can't afford to live and work in the South East  while those with vested interests stay behind the green belt drawbridge they''ve drawn up around themselves so they can just sit and watch property appreciate in value at the expense of others


Bob:

commuting isn't new but the characteristics of it are, and they have been largely generated by unthinking total adherence to green belts

the issue's not so much with "green" as "belts" and thus your point (wedges = "double-talk for doing away with fields wherever you want to") is sadly so wrong:   there ARE places close to transport nodes etc where some slack should be considered by careful PLANNING.    Isn't there a role (even a moral duty ?) for a preservation society to be pro-active rather than purely reactionary ?

brownfield development can help but there's a danger it's a red herring  (after all the dug-out polluted ground from a town-gas site in the Greenwich Peninsular for new housing just doesn't disappear out in to outer space does it ?!

promoting town centres as a "green" solution will not work adequately until "you" the customer make it work.  
Test questions for readers or perhaps an honest poll, Editor ?:    where do YOU go for your weekly/ main food shopping trip ?  (and on principle you don't buy airfreighted goods)    for YOUR DIY materials ?    for YOUR garden products ?     (and you rarely have overseas holidays because you support the prevention of air pollution by aviation fuel etc ?

As to flats  (ie   small units for young households starting up or for older people down-sizing)  is it being claimed that there's absolutely no where in Brookmans Park that's suitable / acceptable for say a maximum three-storey mansard brick and tile scheme in well-landscaped grounds and with discreet parking ?

on with the motley !



 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #148 on: March 26, 2004, 12:28:55 pm »
Wasters are economic immigrants, those that come here for what they can get and have no intention of contributing anything.
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jet
 

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Re: Housing, planning, and development in North Mymms
« Reply #149 on: March 26, 2004, 02:06:16 pm »
There will be those who will bring skills and wealth creation to these shores as well as offering cultural diversity.

:)
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