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Alcohol related crime
« on: September 27, 2005, 04:10:28 pm »
According to Hertfordshire police, there's been a 12% increase in alcohol-related crime. The typical age group for offenders is 17-25. The police have emailed this site a news release giving details of a new poster campaign across the county. Click here for more details.
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Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2005, 09:52:54 am »
Interesting what these figures suggest:

"18 % of all detentions in custody are alcohol related "

....so 82% are not.

"Between midnight and 3am, over 50% of all detentions are alcohol related"

....so 50% are not.

"On Saturdays, 25% of all detentions are alcohol related. This is twice more than the levels seen on Monday to Thursday."

....so on Saturdays 75% are not, and more than 87.5% on other days.

Really, one is drawn to the inescapable conclusion that it is people who do not drink who are the real problem!

 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2005, 01:41:23 pm by Max »
 

Offline jet

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2005, 11:41:59 am »
The majority of vehicle accidents are caused by sober drivers!
Of course its all statistics but if I recall the majority of work in the A & E dept from the evening onwards is patching up alcohol related wounds etc.
Of course the government has a policy of encouraging as much alcohol consumption as possible.
Its a pity because responsible drinking can be a happy time, trouble is that it is habit forming.
regards,
jet
 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2005, 01:40:43 pm »
The government has no policy of encouraging as much alcohol consumption as possible. It has a policy of bringing England and Wales in line with the rest of Europe (including Scotland which has had late opening for years). In Athens or Milan, I can go out to the theatre with friends, and then go on to a bar where we can sit and have a drink whilst discussing the play, or whatever else we feel like talking about. In most of England, this would be against the law, which is utterly ridiculous. Even more so when you consider that if you want to go out on a binge, there are clubs you can go to in just about any town that will be open late. No problem if you want to go to a crowded, noisy place to dance and let rip. Alternatively, you can (as I did many times when a student) get a lot of take-outs and go back to someone's house, delighting the neighbours with loud music, slamming car doors and what have you. However, if all you want is somewhere to go for a couple of quiet pints this is when it gets difficult. It may even be the case that you feel like going out at 11:00 PM. Not uncommon in many countries, including the one I live in. Why on earth should I not be able to do in my own country what I can freely do elsewhere in Europe?

English drinking habits are almost certainly a reaction to our licencing laws, which have been responsible for a "Get the beers in while you still can" mentality. Alcohol related "incidents" quite possibly will increase for a while after late night opening is allowed, but it will only be a temporary phenomenon. In any case, most of us, even when drunk, do not cause any trouble to anyone, so why we should have to continue putting up with a state imposed official bedtime because of the actions of a few irresponsible morons is completely beyond me. Increasing people's freedom to do what they like inevitably makes more work for the police. Too bad. Hey, a dawn to dusk curfew would REALLY reduce crime, but would anyone advocate such a thing?

 

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2005, 04:11:58 pm »
The governments policy on late drinking has increased alcohol consumption.
It is the easiest way to relieve the public of tax and VAT.
There is no lawfull need to "Bringing it in line with Europe" as each country can do what it likes under its so called veto law if it so wishes.
Its a pity that the government does not bring the tax on alcohol in line with the rest of Europe.
I think that prooves the case that the goverment uses peoples alcohol dependancy to raise an inapropriate ammount of tax in relation to the product.
There is no way that the government would encourage anything that raises less revenue.
Scotland used to have a 10 pm closing time and if I recall there was once no drinking on a Sunday in Wales.
When people were chucked out at 10- 30, sure they used to get an extra one in, but at least people had a reasonable nights sleep before working the next day.
With all day access to alcohol people would get an extra one in at any time of the day.
The average person works untill the evening, then they may or may not go to the pub.
If they go at say 8pm which is usual and drink untill 11pm then there is a limit to what they drink. After that its just more booze, more bad tempers and more fights.
I am not talking about BP, I am talking about the cities and towns of England.
There is an entirely different drinking culture in England to the the rest of Europe.
Anyone who lives near a pub or club with late drinking has to endure noise, bad behaviour and louts urinating up their doors etc.
The all day drinking/clubbing had made it impossible to live with any peace in certain areas of the Capital, Westminster for instance, where the council actually clamped down on extended licences to give residents some peace.
Therefore after years of relaxed hours the drinkers habits did not change, they got steadily worse.
In  reality drinking laws are tighter than they were. A short while ago it was possible to get extensions untill 2am, now these are rarely allowed by the magistrates who used to approve them.
Late drinking and crime go together because of the hours of darkness that they take place in, people are tired, tanked up and ready for aggro.
Sorry Max, that people are not so civilised in Britain as the rest of Europe, but thats the way it is and no ammount of laws/directives will change the behaviour patterns.
How anyone can afford to get drunk in a pub though is a wonder, but they do.
Dealing with drunks takes up valuable police time when they could be dealing with criminals, it is possible for one arrest to take up the whole of a policemans shift, with little punitive result.
regards,
jet
 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2005, 04:59:53 pm »
I don't know, Jet. Maybe it is not peaceful in some city centres, but then again, I don't think many of those who choose to live in city centres are really in search of peace and quiet. When I used to live in (reasonably) central London, one of the great attractions of the place was that I could emerge from my place of entertainment and frequently get home on foot.

There is no lawful need to live near a pub, for that matter. It is generally not something that happens to people by accident. I actually have two good friends in different parts of London who bought the properties they own specifically because there was a decent pub over the road or virtually next door. Even in cities, it is easy to find streets that are as quiet as any in Brookmans Park.

And the government does not relieve people of tax when they buy drink. Surely everyone knows that alcoholic beveridges are highly taxed. If you choose to buy them, you choose to pay the tax. An entirely voluntary and public-spirited contribution to the exchequer.

In terms of this debate, "countries" do not do as they like. They either permit (as far as possible) their citizens to do as they like, or they do not. My sympathies are with the former option.

You say:

If they go at say 8pm which is usual and drink untill 11pm then there is a limit to what they drink. After that its just more booze, more bad tempers and more fights.
I am not talking about BP, I am talking about the cities and towns of England.

Maybe they only go out at 8:00 PM (I know this is true for me and many of my friends) because the pubs close so early? Given the choice, I would usually go out after 09:30, which is what I generally do in Greece. Why would you consider yourself entitled to tell me at what time I should go out and when I should go home again, because that seems to me to be what you are doing? 

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There is an entirely different drinking culture in England to the the rest of Europe.

From which I can conclude that you have never been out on a Friday night in Esbjerg, Denmark. The split is more North vs South, rather than Britain vs the rest, but the Dutch, Danes, Germans and the rest are allowed to stay out late by their governments.
 

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2005, 11:10:21 pm »
Its one thing to buy a house near a pub when it closes at a reasonable time.
Its another matter when the law changes and the house becomes unlivable and unsellable due to late night dissruption.
We all know the harm done by too much drinking, yet the goverments answer is to tax it rather than encourage safe recreational imbibing.
The police in mainland Europe do not have their hands tied like the British police. If you missbehave in many continental countries you are treated like the criminal that you are.
In some countries there are harsh penalties for alcohol abuse or use.
If anyone cares to follow the link on the front page to WHT online they will read this weeks latest drink fueled criminal acts.
If people stop drinking at 11pm thet are at least perhaps capable of driving to work the next morning. The later they drink the more the chance that they will be less safe on the road and not under the influence at their work.
It would also be reasonable for bar staff to have a life, get  sensible sleep in the dark as we were designed to do and for the place to be cleaned properly for the next load of adicts
Now I am all for people rights for self determination but when rights are abused , responsibilities neglected  and peacefull folks lives are ruined then its time for control
Its Cocoa and a chocky bicky for the writer tonight because after last nights party I don't want to even smell the stuff again, well not untill tommorow anyway.
regards,
jet
HIC :icon_jokercolor:
 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2005, 10:11:15 am »
Its one thing to buy a house near a pub when it closes at a reasonable time.

Perhaps, but at the moment only a handful of pubs in England are allowed to stay open until a reasonable time! I admit it must be frustrating to live near a pub and still have to get a train out and then a taxi back just to spend some time in a place that hasn't turned into a morgue while the night is still young!

Quote
The police in mainland Europe do not have their hands tied like the British police. If you missbehave in many continental countries you are treated like the criminal that you are.
In some countries there are harsh penalties for alcohol abuse or use.
If anyone cares to follow the link on the front page to WHT online they will read this weeks latest drink fueled criminal acts.

Which European countries would they be? Belarus? Albania? Perhaps Turkey? Certainly not Denmark, Holland, Greece or Italy. You think that the UK police have restrictions, you should see what the Danish police have to contend with!

Quote
It would also be reasonable for bar staff to have a life, get  sensible sleep in the dark as we were designed to do and for the place to be cleaned properly for the next load of adicts.

No one is under any coercion to work in a bar. People who work late shifts will probably get better paid, and it will be up to the individual to decide if this is worth it. There are plenty of shift workers in all fields, you know. And of course, if pubs and clubs were open 24 hours a day, those coming off the night shift would still have the option of going out and having some fun!

Quote
Now I am all for people rights for self determination but when rights are abused , responsibilities neglected  and peacefull folks lives are ruined then its time for control

I quite agree, which is why the authorities have the ability to close down places that are a cause of disturbance. That is the only control you need. Don't prevent a place from opening because it might cause a disturbance. Extend that logic, and you could impose a curfew, as anyone going out in the evening might cause trouble. The fact is, the vast majority of people do not, even after they have been drinking.

 

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2005, 12:47:07 pm »
Not perhaps Max, fact, when pubs close at 11, the noise dissapears within the next half hour.
The British police tend to contain situations by taking verbal abuse and being assualted, they may not react violently when some booze crazed thug is trying to kill them. That is why there are tremendous numbers of police on the sick ( Daily Mail yesterday). Imagine going on shift and knowing that rather than catching thieves you are going to get a call to deal with some thug, day after day after day. At least you know its going to be late at night when most people are in bed and the area is relatively clear to work in. Imagine when there are going to be tanked up thugs 24 hours a day.
The French and Spanish Police do not mess about, they are armed and do not allow criminals to mess them about.
Point is I do not care a jot what other countries do. I don't want England going any further down the Euroland tube than it has allready.
As we all know , the majority of bar staff are now  Eastern Europeans on sub existance earnings. Certainly that is the case here in Ireland and in the cities of England.
How disgusting to support the growth of an industry that trades on human exploitation.
We have to have rules, it makes life worthwhile. If the BPH ( or any other pub) did not chuck us out at 11, we would be there till we passed out. Its greed fueled by an adictive substance.
As for responsibilities, why should others have to put up with the noise and dissruption caused by people exercising their rights to be nuasances.
As for the majority of drinkers not being nuisances, I really suggest that you go to any town/city in England late at night and witness what really happens. Where the drinking carries on in bars/clubs there is noise,crime from dusk till dawn.
Its fact and it never used to happen to such an extent.
regards,
jet
 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2005, 06:30:22 pm »
You know, I read about all these dreadful happenings in city centres in the UK, and when I come home, I find nothing has changed much, whether I am in London, Swansea, Welwyn Garden City, Cheltenham or any of the other places I frequent. But in any case, if every city centre in the country is filled with revellers every night, this suggests that large numbers of people like their revelry. Is there any reason why they shouldn't?

No-one lives in a city centre for peace and quiet, which is in any case a greatly over-rated commodity. If you are lucky or rich enough to live in a city centre and do not appreciate the convenience of having places of recreation on your doorstep, go and live in some quiet suburban backwater. Even in London there are plenty of places that could be mistaken for morgues well before 11:00. In case you have not noticed, most streets do not have pubs in them, so late night opening will have no affect on them.

I don't much care what other countries do either, unless I happen to live in them myself, but it does bother me that when I come home to my own country, I have far greater constraints on my freedom in many ways than I do even in Abu Dhabi (the UAE is an Islamic country where pubs stay open in most places until after 2:00 A.M.).

 

Offline jet

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2005, 10:19:30 pm »
Oh I see, peace and quiet is the reserve of those who can afford it. If you live in a built up area then disruption and noise are okay?
I have never been to the UAE, but I bet that the police do not allow drunken behaviour in public.
My limited experience of islamic countries is that one behaves oneself and respects the culture, or else!
Oh well Max, you win if it helps, the police are wrong, the health service is wrong, the papers  are imagining it and the television is all  made up.
Things have never been better and everyone is happy and will be ecstatic when they can rot their insides even longer in public.
regards,
jet
 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2005, 10:30:30 am »
Lively city areas generally have high property prices. When I lived in London, I could afford to live in quiet-as-the-grave Peckham. No way on earth could I have afforded a place in Covent Garden, Soho or Islington. Plenty of boring places are as affordable as anywhere in the UK, which is of course not to say that they are affordable.

Anyway, as you say, I win. The law will change and everyone will be better off. Those who wish to go out more will be able to do so, and those whose greatest pleasure seems to be complaining about how bad everything is will be able to do so even more, so we'll all be happy. And you will still be able to go home at 11:00 if you wish.
 

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2005, 06:18:39 pm »
To sum up, my main objection was based on the fact that most people want to sleep between say 11-30pm and 7-00 am.
Late night drinkers tend to be noisy and prevent reasonable peace for anyone in the area.
Sometimes if one wins one is actually loosing, because when you are trying to sleep your daytime or late nighttime hangover off then some noisy drunk will be keeping you awake.
regards,
jet
who prefers drinking at home with friends, where it is safe and one does not have to contend with loud mouths.
 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2005, 08:04:29 am »
Do most people want to be asleep as early as 11:30? I know no-one who does. At home or anywhere else, I am never in bed before midnight and only rarely before 2:00 AM. In any case, if I was in bed trying to sleep, I would far rather my next door neighbours were down the pub drinking than on the other side of my wall with load music, laughter, doors slamming and what have you.

In sum, I would say that the vast majority of us who do not live near pubs will not suffer in any way from the new laws, and those who live in city centres are already likely to be disturbes by people going to and coming from clubs, so a few pubs staying open late for those who do not want crowds and loud music will not make the situation noticably worse. And those of us who do not agree with the state imposed bedtime we currently endure will be able to stay out as we please.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2005, 12:24:54 pm »
Max, tell it to the families whos lives are ruined by late night drinking?
We need laws to help control the weak who can be misslead into thinking its cool to stay out late and be nuisances.
Overindulgence is a juvenile act which leads to personal degeneration.
What about the people living next door to the pub or in its vicinity, why are they not entitled to reasonable peace.
Max I cannot see how it affects your drinking habits in Greece? surely you don't visit BP just to try and drink late at night.
Tell us what the laws are in Greece and is it usual for pubs to stay open late in non tourist areas.
It certainly affects me and my relations when I am in N London, comings and goings from pubs with late licences and the noise caused by someone who fancies a watermelon at 3 am from the 24 hour grocer.
I feel a poll coming on, but perhaps I would not be able to make it complex enough.
regards,
jet

 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2005, 02:54:18 pm »
I don't know if the concept of licencing laws exist in Greece. Even in very small places with little or no tourism you will find somewhere where you can get  a drink and/or something to eat at 03:00 AM. I have a house in a small village on an island called Ikaria. I have never seen a tourist there. The local bar is about 20m from my house. Only local people use it. It is usually open until 03:00, and often later. I regard this as a great convenience, even if there is sometimes a bit of noise (which I simply put up with).

As for me, put it this way. When I was young, most of my friends lived in and around BP. When the pubs shut, we went to someone's home or up to Gobions or somewhere similar. Likewise when I lived in Swansea, where the majority of the people I know lived in the same area, within walking distance of each other's homes. Today, if I meet up with friends (usually friends I haven't seen for a long time) in London, we have usually come from places that are a good distance apart (Ealing, Peckham, Highgate and Brookmans Park would be a probable combination). No one will have a car with him/her, so when the pub shuts, we do not have the option of walking or driving back to someone else's home, so we say good night and go home. If the pubs were open late, as they are in just about every other comparable city in the world where they have pubs (including the UAE, Islamic country though it is). When I am in the UK, my time is limited and I want to spend as much time as possible in the company of friends that I rarely see, and the ridiculous "National Bedtime Law" makes this harder than it need be.
 

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2005, 03:15:50 pm »
Thanks for the information, I guess that your local needs to stay open longer to survive.
When does it open again? Are there staff or is it al down to a rather tired owner.
Strange why some people seem to need to relie on pubs for their recreation.
I guess that its because I am happy to have the odd one every now and then that I find it difficult to understand the need for constant access to pubs that some have.
Bit like abolishing fishing seasons, because some greedy people cannot give the River/fish a bit of peace and want everything all the time.
I like to shoot but have to respect peoples right to peace and either use a silencer or shoot at times when most are awake. Would it be acceptable to shoot at night without a silencer because I like the bang or the fact that the bullet goes straighter?  No I willingly have consideration.
When I fly, I avoid low flying or built up areas, both for safety and noise consideration reasons. Yet anyone who lives in BP will tell you that they have to endure almost endless circlings of light aircraft whose occupants could not care about others peace.
Such a shame that its become an I will do as I like area.
Max I think you would fit in well in BP, perhaps you should buy a pub therewhen you retire, call it a club and run it 24 hours a day.
regards,
jet
 

Max

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2005, 04:09:58 pm »
The owners are a family who live in the village, so it is generally run by four people. They rarely break a sweat, and would almost certainly be there most nights anyway. Half the time, I just go in and serve myself, so that the person "working" there doesn't have to get up from his backgammon game. It isn't so much a matter of relying on pubs for recreation. More a case of having somewhere to hang out with your friends. It is true that I have been in there when people have had quite a lot to drink, but more often the point is the company. It usually opens in the mornings, and closes again in the afternoon, but this tends to be a bit at the whim of the owners. I've known it close down for a couple of days because they all went to Athens and forgot to arrange for someone to come in and open it up! People just shrugged and either went home or somewhere else!

Plenty of places in rural Ireland like that I would imagine. I remember having a pint in a local bar near Dingle at about 2:00 AM with a chap who turned out to be the local policeman! He was of the opinion that no-one in the village would talk to him again if he went around closing pubs down when they'd just got the accordian and bodhran out for a few rousing songs about killing the English!

 

Offline jet

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Re: Alcohol related crime
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2005, 06:22:11 pm »
Ah ha! as I suspected, a very simple arrangement based on trust and ease, breaking every health and safety issue. Plus of course European  law.
Do you really think it possible to apply such a lax approach in Blighty.
As for the Guardai, they take licencing laws, alcohol abuse and drunk driving very seriously now.
It ain't good ole Eire any more its Western New Europe.
Strangely enough " Rebel" songs and a general attitude based on killing the English are still prevelant.
This is despite the fact that the SE exists on British tourism.
Fact 57% of all the money in the SE comes via the ferry.
Fact tourism is 25% down this year due to the supposed cost of being in "rip off" Ireland as the inhabitants call it.
Figures from The Irish Times.
All due to the Euro.
My accent does not help, despite my Irish blood. To be fair I gather they only want to spill the English haemoglobin in me. Blood donation has a different meaning over here, no tea and bickies after. The town pubs are no place for an English accent late at night.
To be fair though I have been wellcomed much warmer than I ever was in BP and I have been promised a good old fashioned English style house bur/ sorry warming.
Having held the target when shooting for the first few months and survived I have been granted " He isn't too bad for a Brit" status
regards,
jet
 

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