Author Topic: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.  (Read 13742 times)

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Offline Govvy

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'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« on: September 08, 2005, 01:27:47 am »
just thought I let you know, so now you can't drive down 'The Drive' from Pine Grove which is classified as a public footpath. So why would they give it a road name!? A couple of big black metal obilisks, anyway, I don't think the council really thought it through and it should be remove for access reasons! Incase a crash or something did block the exit to the A1000 on Georges wood road.

Be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on the subject.
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2005, 02:59:26 pm »
1) Driving on the footpath regardless of obelisks is a criminal offence, punishable under the Road Traffic Acts. Punishments include points on the licence and even vehicle confiscation. There were two teenagers on motorised quad bikes with no licence plates who were around The Drive earlier this week. I bet they don't know this.
2) There are at least 2 other routes out of the village that do not involve Georges Wood Road but do lead to A1000.
3) Do you know how unsafe The Drive is? Many Chancellors pupils walk along it each day, taking there lives in their hands as lorry drivers, van drivers (I have even seen 20 tonne lorries) and car drivers drive on the pavement.
4) All in all a victory for the pedestrian over the vehicle!
 

Offline Editor

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2005, 04:32:28 pm »

I don't think the council really thought it through and it should be remove for access reasons! Incase a crash or something did block the exit to the A1000 on Georges wood road.


Are you sure it's the council's work? I noticed there is a padlock on one of the posts. I wonder who owns the key? We walked that way a few days ago and noticed a Range Rover enter The Drive from the A1000 end and have to turn back. If it had been the council's work surely there would be a sign saying dead end?
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John_fraser

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2005, 06:58:34 pm »
I was told bu someone who lives on Pine Grove that the Council did indeed do it. They also said that the key is a standard one held by emergency vehicles. I believe the people who live on The Drive also have a copy.

Judging by the state of this road/footpath, I wouldn’t want to drive a ‘normal’ car down it, although it might go some way to justify the ownership of one of those oversized Tonka Toys.
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2005, 07:19:41 pm »
Look carefully on the right hand side of The Drive at the A1000 end - there is a brand new 'dead end' sign plus a replacement 'public footpath' sign.

And oh no, I have to criticize a 4X4 driver - they missed the sign! Some of you would not think that suprising!
 

John_fraser

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 07:26:24 pm »
must be fun watching those drivers in those cars doing a 300 point turn when they spot the bollards. Or don't they spot them?
 

Offline Govvy

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2005, 01:39:33 pm »
I would of thought a road/path like that have a wait restriction limit put on it to stop big trucks going down it.

The only other thing I can think of, its a public footpath that has a house in the middle of it. They still need to drive down there to get in. So in some ways, doesn't make too much sense to me! heh.
 

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2005, 04:04:40 pm »

1) Driving on the footpath regardless of obelisks is a criminal offence, punishable under the Road Traffic Acts. Punishments include points on the licence and even vehicle confiscation. There were two teenagers on motorised quad bikes with no licence plates who were around The Drive earlier this week. I bet they don't know this.


But is it a footpath or a road? And if it is a footpath and vehicles are not allowed, what happens to those who have to drive down it to reach their homes?

On the OS map it looks the same as Golf Club Road. This image will be slow to download.



Image produced from the Ordnance Survey Get-a-map service. Image reproduced with kind permission of the Ordnance Survey.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 07:56:36 am by Editor »
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AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2005, 08:14:11 pm »
Two points: if you look carefully at your OS map, there is a warning that showing a right of way on an OS map does not mean there is one. Reference should be made to the definitive map, which in this case in County Hall. So I guess HCC has the answer - and it's bollards!
Secondly, these situations occur all over the countryside. There are many bridleways and footpaths that have houses alongside them: its a situation called access only. As for the Golf Club, who knows...golf balls I think!
 

Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2005, 11:47:50 am »
I allways thought The Drive was a private unadopted road?
Its a mess because of the Chelsea tractors that use it.
Many rights have way have been illegally blocked off by councils/farmers to prevent the passage of 4Wds off roading. Pity they were not encouraged to off road and stay off road!
regards,
jet
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2005, 02:09:37 pm »
I guess HCC looked at that - hence the bollards.

The Chelsea tractors made no difference - it's the 20 tonne and above lorries that dash off the A1000 that really tear it up. After all, which has the greater effect - 2 tonnes on 4 wheels or 20 tonnes on 6 or 8 wheels....do the maths!

No right of way can be illegally blocked off unless it is on specific grounds such as lambing, shooting (not at the same time!) or it is access land where access is at the sole discretion of the landowner. The County Council can deal with illegal offroading by Traffic Restriction Orders which have been used on long distance bridleways such as the Ridgeway in Wiltshire where offroading has churned an ancient chalk track into a morass of mud.

Alas the bigger problem is foothpath access where in the attempt to let those who use wheelchairs or have problems walking, stiles have been removed: this lets the motorbikes in and this is a major problem for local farmers.

The Drive is now safer than it ever was: with no lorries and little if any traffic, the public and the large number of schoolchildren that use it can use the path in peace and not play dodge with the traffic driving on the pavement!

 

Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2005, 05:15:58 pm »
Rather than doing the maths, if I recall, mark one eyeball reveals that a resident of the drive is a builder with obligatory 4WD and commercial vehicles, thus ruining his own roadway.
As for rights of way, Bridleways are for horses, but rights of way can be legally used by 4WDs. Most of these have been illegally blocked off by landowners and councils.
This is a missuse of the governments "Right not to roam" draconian prevention of the populus using the countryside for recreation.
Done a bit of real "off roading" myself which is the only place to use 4WDs.
For shooting one has to post a "sentry" at any public ways where a shoot takes place.
M/Cs have caused tremendous damage off roading nearly everywhere.
regards,
jet
 

Offline Govvy

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2005, 03:38:22 pm »
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=525703&y=204813&z=0&sv=AL9+7BW&st=2&pc=AL9+7BW&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf

on this site, they are roads, 'The Drive' and 'Golf Club Road'

You can't really drive down behind the school, that is really ruff, but the first bit between A1000 and Pine Grove is pretty driveable. Just need to add a few weight restriction signs up!

The department at the council that deals with these designations of road or footpath need some help to sort out their problems if you ask me. Someone there are got a few things wrong. The Golf Club Road obviously is there, because we see that every day and part of 'The Drive' the area behind the school can be a footpath. Sadly someone drove down there not so long ago to do some illegal dumping... :/

-
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=525703&y=204813&z=3&sv=525703,204813&st=4&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=525703&ay=204813

But there are a few questions about the mapping of brookmans park that proberbly need sorting out. But between this map and David's there are clearly some mapping problems.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 03:55:06 pm by Govvy »
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2005, 05:18:58 pm »
As I have said before the definitive map is held at County Hall: you can quote maps all you like, it's the definitive map that counts. The problems are with the commercial maps. It sounds as if Goovy doesn't like the Council decision: is it really worth a) your exhaust system or b) the risk of injuring a pedestrian for your convenience? The extra 30 seconds to the bottom of Pine Grove too much?

Just to correct jet:

Footpath: pedestrians only
Bridleways: non motorized traffic, pedestrians and horses:
Road used as a public path (RUPP): as bridleways
Byways open to all traffic (BOATS): as bridleways plus vehicles
Designated roads: see Road traffic acts + Road (Construction and Use) Regulations



These are rules for the general public. Different rules apply to the landowners (ie a farmer can drive a tractor on the bridleway over his land) or those with properties adjoining the land. And unless jet spends all of his life tracking the gross misuse of The Drive over a few years, his mark one eyeball observation is just what it is - one brief observation - of limited and I daresay minimal value. Sounds like jet is living up to his moniker - blowing hot air backwards!

The decision is a good one - the safety of many has been put ahead of the convenience of a few!
 

Offline Govvy

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2005, 12:35:43 am »
Quote from: AngentOrange
As I have said before the definitive map is held at County Hall: you can quote maps all you like, it's the definitive map that counts. The problems are with the commercial maps. It sounds as if Goovy doesn't like the Council decision: is it really worth a) your exhaust system or b) the risk of injuring a pedestrian for your convenience? The extra 30 seconds to the bottom of Pine Grove too much?

Nothing to do with that, its to do with access out of Pine Grove, I have seen car crashes at the bottom of Pine Grove exiting onto Georges Wood Road. Now when that happens everyone is going to be stuck in Pine Grove. The school is in Pine Grove creating extra traffic and dangers. I still think it's a bad decision.

And you can't really get a car down that track behind the school. Well, I wouldn't want too anyway.

anyone seeing the point yet?
 

Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2005, 11:37:19 am »
The point could be that the residents of The Drive are more than happy to have their little empire blocked off.
Perhaps they complained to the council about people using "their" access.
Thanks for the correction AO but what did i write that was wrong?
I did not specify anything?
I have come across many vehicular rights of way in Herts and Beds that have been illegally blocked off. Mind you thats what happens when 800 years of Magna Carta is thrown away to EU dictate.
Jets are very efficient at blowing hot air backwards, which is why they exist. Although in fact latest jet development is too blow cold air backwards.
The thing is though that 4wds are inefficient and blow large quantities of harmfull particulte matter in all directions at very low level
Its just a pity that the proliferation of 4WDS and the inconsideration of some of their drivers has made it easy for the authourities to sanction the prevention of their passage on previous rights of way fo vehicles. There is a difference between a simple Land Rover which could drive over rough terrain without causing too much damage when driven carefully and the huge tank like things that are driven as fast as possible to cause as much damage as posible for a bit of a lark.
regards,
jet
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2005, 01:13:57 pm »
Well that makes Pine Grove no different to many other roads:should we start building new roads between M25 junctions just in case a junction gets blocked by an accident? That is an interesting argument, but not one to be followed, surely? You'll just have to adopt that rare virtue - patience or even more difficult, turn RIGHT at the bottom of Pine Grove and seek an alternative route!

And jet, the EU? 4X4s? It has nothing to do with it - rant on another thread. The problem is (or was) cars (mostly saloons 2-3 years old), delivery vans, lorries (20 tonnes plus) and the odd 4X4 which given the state of the drive was the only thing that could use The Drive (they have bags of ground clearance). No matter what the vehicle, they all put the lives of pedestrian users of The Drive at risk.

I think this move should be expanded on: SUSTRANS and the Department for Transport run an initiative called 'Safe Routes to Schools'. This encourages pupils to walk or cycle (or use public transport - if any exists) to school by providing safe routes that are traffic free. Maybe we should extend this to provide a safe traffic free route from Chancellors to BP station and ditto to the primary school. Given the convoluted nature of education (children no longer neccessarily go to the local school) maybe we should all be seeking a similar route between Potters Bar and Brookmans Park. Here's to safer cycling and walking! Might even get you fitter, jet and goovy!
 

Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2005, 04:11:10 pm »
Magna Carta was the basis of common law, including rights of way, for 800 odd years.
It was swept away by the government desperation to comply with EU directives.
Thus there is no longer a simple statuatory legal remedy to challenge what ammounts to illegal blocking of rights of way.
I can see why it was needed and accepted though , mainly to prevent great big 4WDS from churning up the countryside.
Problem is it makes them stay on the road and allows some 4WD drivers to intimidate normal car drivers with their size.
So it has everything to do with situations with The Drive being blocked off.
As for BP kids walking to school, don't make me laugh.
Not that it matters if I was disabled or lazy but 5 miles a day plus weights, pulse 55 at rest, 120/80 BP. Not bad for a Dinosaur.Not overweight but undertall.
And it does not involve paying gyms for fancy excercise machines.
regards,
jet
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2005, 06:18:19 pm »
1) Commom law still exists - ask any barrister  / solicitor or visit a court for some instruction!
2) I have had farmers clear blocked and unmaintained bridleways on the basis of common law - HCC do this;
2) Give the kids the opportunity and you never know with encouragement (from people like yourself of course jet, you might just get a surprise!
3) Can you name one piece of EU legislation that enables'illegal blocking off of access'?
4) Good for you - now we need to change your mind set into something more positive so that your obviously well honed physical state can be matched by your mental one!
 

Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2005, 10:41:39 pm »
AO if you cannot debate on a forum without making personal remarks about my mental health it says more about your aggressive state of mind than mine.
My opinions are mine, if you don't like them then fine but maintain decorum please.
It is not me driving 4wds on road and depleting the earths resources is it? So what harm am I doing? Only voicing an opinion about OTT vehicles, possibly I am in a majority regarding these destructive abominations.
European law supercedes all past laws, if anyone fails in an English court it is quite possible for someone to take anything to the european court and have it overturned. As long as they are either well off or poor enough to get legal aid.
As for school kids walking to school, this is rare in BP. Most are driven locally or are transported out of the area. Again nothing to do with me only fact.
Whats clearing Bridleways got to do with vehicular rights of way ( BOATS ) ?
regards,
jet
 

Offline Bob

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 01:11:35 pm by Bob »
Bob
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2005, 12:26:23 pm »
Touchy, touchy!
1) I base my opinions on facts: when they change, I change my mind.
2) You now have another safe route to pad along on during your 5 mile undertall alteration scheme!
3) No aggression, just banter as you have said in the past. Don't like it? Lighten up!

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Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2005, 12:49:01 pm »
AO do you not understand? you have suggested that I have mental problems on a public forum.
There is nothing funny whatsoever in having mental problems and to make light of something which affects many people is thoughtless to say the least.
I like to think I have a good sense of humour and I abide by the rules of the forum.
I do not make personal remarks unless as in this situation I am refered to first.
Sorry that you do not understand the simile between overweight/undertall where Garfield is concerned.
regards,
jet
 

Offline steve

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2005, 02:22:25 pm »
if you look on the chancellors website under the parents bulletin there is an explanation to how and why the bollards were put up. this website is accessed via the home page on this site.
 

Offline Editor

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2005, 02:29:22 pm »

if you look on the chancellors website under the parents bulletin there is an explanation to how and why the bollards were put up. this website is accessed via the home page on this site.


Thanks Steve,

For those who don't want to click through to the Chancellor's site, here is what the bulletin says...

Quote

The Drive

For some years the Governors have been in discussion with the Highways Authority and the residents who live on The Drive (known as the bumpy road) which runs from the A1000 to the top of Pine Grove. These discussions have centred around the safety of pedestrians on the footpath which is a public footpath and is maintained by the County Council. The Highways Authority has recommended that bollards be erected at the top of Pine Grove to prevent vehicular access and at the same time creating a safe footpath for pedestrian. At their meeting on July 4th the Governing Body discussed this recommendation and agreed unanimously to this proposal. The Highways Authority has programmed the works for this summer holiday and we look forward to a safer environment for our pupils who use this route to school.


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Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2005, 05:16:31 pm »
Thanks to Steve and the Editor for this info.
But what was/is "The Drive"
It is used by vehicles for access to their homes and seems not to be a private road or else the council would not want to know about it. If it was a private road they could enforce the residents to maintain it by applying common law.
If it was a driveable road in the past then what right have the council got to block it off thus preventing its past legal use.
Is it another errosion of past rights? such is happening everywhere where councils just block off roads under the guise of preventing what is commonly known as "Rat runs".
There is a relevence in this because on the one hand the council blocks off a public road but when the residents of private roads want to do a similar thing the council refuses it.
In example the residents of Calder Ave have to maintain and insure the roadway yet the residents of the "new" estate at the end travel over and wear out Calder ave for free.
Seems like dual standards to me.
Why do children need to use the drive to get to chancellors? If any do and they needed to walk along "the drive" then surely its state which prevented speeding made it inherently safe, although perhaps a bit dirty?
regards,
jet
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2005, 09:00:59 pm »
Now, now, I just disagree with what you say. No need to get quite so shrill. You'll be putting your BP scores up if you're not careful!

1) The WHT article points out that The Drive is owned by Chancellors School.
2) The historical status of The Drive as a road or a path is unclear: this situation is not uncommon - they are usually described as white roads and HM Government is placing a deadline of I think 2014 for the final settlement of their status;
3) HCC and have reviewed their records and believe it is a footpath based on the evidence. Add this to the safety issues for local children and Chancellors pupils and well it's a good decision;
4) No, the drivers who used it drove on the footpath! And for some vehicles (20 tonne lorries and teenage male drivers) they never slowed down anyway.  Two way traffic was impossible and even more laden with lethal potency.
5) Putting drivers over pedestrians? This position is not consistent with your well publicised (on this site anyway) on vehicle useage, pollution and concerns for the environment. Is there a case for collective safety over the doubtful rights of a few? I think so.

Madness? I prefer Beckett: 'We are all born mad. Some remain so.' And that includes me! Yip! Yip!
 

Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2005, 11:40:46 am »
Allright AO I know you are just a wind up merchant, like I used to ( unknowingly) be before I matured.
Are you really suggesting that you disagree with me when I say that suggesting someone is mentally defective is bad behaviour at the very least.
Heres a hint, when you write something wrong, no need to humble yourself, just consider correcting it.
Heres an example, I wrote something the other day with good intent, someone objected to it, so I removed it, simple as that.
The forum is not about enforcing views on others or scoring points its about debating, communicating and if possible informing.
As for your choice of vehicle? well I don't really care that much if you want to pay more for fuel to finance the governments policys, or for that matter if you pollute your own environment, its for your conscience to decide.
What I do care about is the errosion of decent citizens rights to self determination and freedom from state oppression.
Plus of course their right to breath clean air, eat natural food and drink safe water.
Quietly written, nothing shrill.
regards,
jet
 

Offline jet

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2005, 02:03:03 pm »
The question that should be asked is why the council are using taxpayers money to erect bollards on private property?
regards,
jet
 

AgentOrange

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Re: 'The Drive' blocked off at the end of Pine Grove.
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2005, 07:31:27 pm »
And the answer has to be The Drive is owned by Chancellors, which as it is funded by the state, makes it public property!
 ;D
 

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