Author Topic: Hunting with hounds  (Read 13420 times)

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Offline anna

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Hunting with hounds
« on: July 18, 2002, 08:18:05 pm »
I think its disgusting that this is called a sport! This is cold blooded murder of an animal. The fox is terrified, they tire it out and then it has a long slow painful death.

If the farmers feel the fox is a problem, then come up with some humane way of killing them. However, I hate the fact that humans think it is there right to medal with nature.  Animals have become extint because of us, wanting their fur or their ivory, or just hunting for pleasure.

I am not against meat eaters, I can understand that, we used to be hunters, and mostly animals are now killed painlessly for our food. But to make a sport out if it??  I actually have more understanding of someone who goes out kills an animal and then brings it back to eat..............because that is true "hunting" that is what animals do, they kill for food.  However, to kill an animal, for fun, and stick its head on your wall as a trophy.......Why do you need a pack of hounds and loads of people on horse back to kill a small little fox.

Dog fighting is banned in the country........but isn't this what this is............???

YOu may have guessed I am totally against it. But then I am against any cruelty to animals, well in fact I'm just against cruelty to any living thing.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2002, 06:17:33 pm by admin »
 

Offline jet

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2002, 08:47:44 pm »
Dear Anna,
That is the most sensible arguement I have ever heard, if a Fox is not a Dog what is it ???.
I see nothing wrong with dressing up (oops) and being traditional, but there is the obvious choice of a drag hunt ( sounding dodgy again must be my mind) possibley in persuit of Longman ;D.
We have an official rabbit explosion, these are run over and Foxes clear up, ever wondered where the carion goes, it isn't the bin men.
Life of a fox is estimated at less than 2 years, can one imagine the countryside without them.
We saw the Quantock hunt once when fishing, first the dogs came through, out of control, My wife said in her best Norf Lundun, "cor look at all those dawgs." Said a lady hunt follower in best Roedean, "Madam them is not dawgs them is hoinds" My wife replied " well they is bl**ding dawgs where I cum from" Collapse of stout party and entourage. ;D ;D ;D
Sorry one digress's
Regards,
jet
 

Offline Mooniemad

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2002, 09:08:24 pm »
 When you ask them why they do the hunts, they usually, not always give the reason that they enjoy to explore the country side in a traditional way with other fellow riders. So why does a fox have to be destroyed in the process?
 

Offline Editor

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2002, 11:23:54 pm »
I just can't understand why there is so much partying surrounding all the killing.  If the job is killing foxes then why don't they just get on with it without making such a song and dance about it all?

« Last Edit: July 19, 2002, 08:59:29 pm by admin »
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John_fraser

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2002, 11:28:04 pm »
I don’t see anything wrong with making recreational activity – it’s not a sport - out of culling animals. Stalking dear seems to be a very effective way of reducing numbers. Nor do I see anything wrong with objectionable with dressing up in sill clothes. In this respect fox hunting is on a par with golf. What I strongly object to is the cruelty surrounding this activity.

The hunting lobby use to claim that hunting with dogs was the most efficient and least cruel method to keep foxes under control. The fax many hunts help foxes breed destroyed the first argument and studies on deer hunted by hounds told us what everyone – including the hunters – knew: It is extremely traumatic for the animal.

These days the hunting lobby try to use the justification of jobs and tradition. These arguments could be used for bear baiting, bull fighting, cock fighting, dog fighting, bare knuckle fights or numerous other activities we now find barbaric. We’d never tolerate these in this country and hunting with hounds is just as barbaric. If we ended it today, people in twenty years time will not understand why it lasted so long.
 

Astra

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2002, 08:28:24 pm »
The master of the hounds is objecting to the banning of fox hunting with dogs (Jet - I am also from north London) because he will have to put his dogs down.  He does this anyway once the animal is 'past its peak' and I think I heard that this was when the animal was between 3 and 4 years old.  These animals are not rehomed they are culled.  This is even more barbaric.

Anyway, another lie from our leader.  He was going to ban it before the last election.  Bit late again.

Astra
 

John_fraser

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2002, 08:45:46 pm »
They have to cull them as they do not have the temperament required for a family pet. What I’d like to know is if the master of the hunt uses the most humane method available. According to them this should be to have the rest of the pack chase them to the point of exhaustion, then rip them to pieces.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2002, 08:46:25 pm by John_fraser »
 

Offline jet

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2002, 09:16:16 pm »
With a .38 revolver in the head as demonstrated once on telly, very very quick.
This gun is owned by special licence to the master of the hounds, despite a hand gun ban on target shooters.
Deer hunted by dogs are usually shot at bay with a 12 bore shotgun again as demonstrated on telly, not very accurate if gun is fully choked ie minimum spread of shot and beast moves :'(  totally unsuitably for a thick furred animal. :o
Still better ending perhaps than our domesticated prey gets :'(
JF I love your irony.
Hounds make fine pets if not allowed to be pack animals from birth, gentler than a Rottweiler or Mastiff ;)
Methinks BP is full of townies, anyone indiginous to the village apart from MM  :) smiley added as JF cannot see the tongue in cheek joke :) another one to show nothing meant by it ;)
regards,
jet
« Last Edit: July 19, 2002, 09:57:08 pm by jet »
 

John_fraser

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2002, 09:52:31 pm »
Any point now we’ll get someone chipping in with the “you townies don’t understand our country ways” argument. The same argument could be reversed to support herding immigrants into slums, football riots, building lane motorways between cities or building on the green belt.
 

Offline anna

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2002, 02:01:57 pm »
It just seems strange to me. I wanted to move "out" because I love the green fields surrounding us and love nothing better than walking around the countryside seeing wildlife in its natural surroundings. Yet it seems the people who live in the countryside, actually love to kill their animals.  These hounds are bred to kill, and then are killed themselves.  

When humans ask for the right to die, we are told we can't play God. Its seems that we allowed to with animals though?
 

Mary_Morgan

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2002, 01:20:47 am »
"Foxhunting has helped change the British landscape.
Areas where it is common often have more hedgerow and thickets which benefit other wildlife besides the fox. These would disappear if hunting was banned." (New Scientist, 19.4.97).

Interesting?

M
 

Offline jet

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2002, 01:31:47 am »
The EU have encouraged the hedge destruction, :'( It helps the hosses jump without breaking their fetlocks. :)
The countryside is left alone where hunting takes place, because the toffs own the land and don't let the rest of us on to it! :'(
regards,
Jet
P.S. just fed the cub in the back (40) yard, fattening it up so the Quorn hunt will buy it to release on Boxing Day :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2002, 01:44:54 pm by jet »
 

John_fraser

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2002, 11:07:48 pm »
Quote
"Foxhunting has helped change the British landscape.
Areas where it is common often have more hedgerow and thickets which benefit other wildlife besides the fox. These would disappear if hunting was banned." (New Scientist, 19.4.97).
M


We appear to have scrapped away the bottom of the barrel and kept going. This is the only argument to be put up, and if it were even half serious I’d suggest that we ban both hunting and ripping up hedges.
 

Mary_Morgan

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2002, 12:54:36 am »
"Mary Morgan wrote".  She didn't at all.  She merely quoted from the New Scientist something she found interesting.   At least JF had the grace to repeat the whole quote.  

But, sorry, MM is far more than half serious, you ban hunting - see how long the hedgerows and the copses (?coppices - forgive my ignorance) last.

Unfortunately BP is so removed from true hunting country that people do not really have a clue.   Move to BP to be in the country, but you need to move a bit further from ruralised suburbia to be in the real country.

M

 

Offline Editor

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2002, 01:04:19 am »
Mary, the way the Forum's quote system works is that if someone extracts a quote from another person's post the programme puts in the date, the time, the user name of the author and then the words - wrote:

Eg: If anyone used the quote function on this post it would read as follows...
on Jul 21th, 2002, 10:10pm, Editor wrote:
It is just the way the system works and not put in by the person writing the follow up post.
Just didn't want any misunderstandings to arise.
:)
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Mary_Morgan

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2002, 01:13:46 am »
Editor

No  misunderstanding on my part - I used quotation marks on "Mary Morgan wrote", not the clever way which I have not worked out how to do, despite looking at the "Help".  :D

Cheers
M

In words of "Idiots Guide" can you tell me how to put in a hyperlink  - tried yesterday but couldn't work it out.    Quite possibly just as well  ???
 

Offline Editor

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2002, 01:23:37 am »
Yes Mary, to put hyperlinks in your posts what you do is this.
Just above the box where you write your messages there is a line of smiley faces and above them two rows of icons.  The second icon on the left is a globe.
Place your cursor where you want the link in your post and click on that.
You will then get this
Copy and paste the link you want in between the two sets of brackets like this.
http://www.brookmans.com
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Mary_Morgan

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2002, 02:55:46 am »
http://www.countryside-alliance.org/edu/edupage2-2-3.htm

Thanks.   It works.  

There is a picture of lambs in here - not very nice.   Saw it all too often (normally chickens not lambs)  as a child :'( :'(
MM
« Last Edit: July 22, 2002, 03:00:15 am by Mary_Morgan »
 

Offline jet

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2002, 03:11:52 am »
Is a hyperlink like one of red Kens buses, takes you from where you don't want to be to where you don't want to go. ???
Foxes do eat or maul stillborn and abandoned lambs which die from hypothermia and natural causes. A sheep is very protective towards wanted offspring, but there is a very high natural mortality rate amongst sheep and all animals. :'( Its all called natural selection.
Farming is not a natural thing, hunting by predators including our own species is. :P
Why don't we eat foxes? are they much different from hare?
regards and goodnight,
jet
« Last Edit: July 22, 2002, 03:14:15 am by jet »
 

John_fraser

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2002, 04:07:03 pm »
Mary,

I didn’t quote the whole of your post, as it was in the thread and net etiquette dictates  that you should quote only the relevant section, rather than bulk out the thread with needless duplication. What I quoted represented the thrust of the argument. I don’t see why you feel I misrepresented you.

Like you, I cannot reproduce the whole of the New Scientist editorial, but note that it was an editorial – i.e. an opinion created by interpreting facts – rather than an article – i.e. a reporting of facts.  The editorial does make some points in favour of hunting foxes with hounds, but the aim of the editorial is to advise against extrapolating work on deer hunting to fox hunting.  

Many pro-hunt campaigners misrepresent the views of those who object to hunting with hounds. JET makes a good point on the nature of farming but I can accept that foxes need controlling.  I know that they will kill for fun, so your link to the pictures of dead lambs isn’t that shocking. Even less shocking when you remember that, if the fox hadn’t killed them, they were probably destined to be killed shortly afterwards, ending up on someone’s dinner plate.

Here’s a link to pictures of a fox being killed. Like your pictures, they do nothing to advance the argument, but probably require a stronger stomach to view.

The one fact sets me against hunting with hounds is that it is both needlessly and excessively cruel.  

John
 

Mary_Morgan

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2002, 08:18:12 pm »
John

You did quote the whole of my quote.  The message that didn't has disappeared from the forum, but it quoted only the first sentence of the quote from the New Scientist, and came back on that not the whole quote. What I was that was a bit cranky, for which I apologise, was that it said "Mary Morgan wrote", whereas I was quoting.  Now I know, thanks to Dave, how the quoting system works it is all clearer.   So I do hope you didn't take offence.    I just found it "interesting" - not even sure that I agree with it.  

You say that "many pro-hunt campaigners mispresent the views of those who object to hunting with hounds".   I agree totally.   This however works equally the other way in that many objectors mispresent the views of the pro-hunt campaigners.  

True the lambs would have ended up on a dinner plate.  They do look different wrapped up in plastic in the supermarket.   If they didn't we probably all be vegetarians.    

The link to the foxes being killed doesn't show up on my computer.  

Two points of view. You are perfectly entitled to your view that it is needlessly and excessively cruel.  I am equally entitled to mine that it is not.  

Agreeing to differ is what makes the world go round.

Cheers
Mary
 

Offline jet

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2002, 08:57:13 pm »
Of course its cruel, so is killing a Lamb, not many people who eat meat would do so if they had to kill it. ???
My Great Grandad used to slaughter cattle with a pole axe, the animal did not know what was happening, it went out from barn to field and just did not get there :'(
Unlike today with the horrific transporting of live animals to a slaughter house stinking of blood and fear :'(
As far as links to animals being killed and cuddly little lambs, we have all seen it before somewhere or other.
What harm do the foxes around here cause, how many chook farmers around here? or anywhere for that matter. ???
Now if you want to be put off anything go to a chook hatchery and battery, the compashionless production is beyond belief all for a pretty poor product :-[
The biggest kiler of foxes is like all critters the car.
regards,
jet
Who is quivering like prey waiting to be pounced on by both sides of the disscusion. :) :) :)
Sorry about chook too many Aussie soaps, g'day
 

John_fraser

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2002, 09:25:55 pm »
Quote

Two points of view. You are perfectly entitled to your view that it is needlessly and excessively cruel.  I am equally entitled to mine that it is not.  

Agreeing to differ is what makes the world go round.

This is a matter of morality and so can not be parked as simply as that. You are always entitled to your view. But if hunting is not cruel then it is a matter of personal choice, if it is cruel then it should be banned.

I did miss the link off my post:
http://www.league.uk.com/cruelsports/foxes/hunt.htm
The pictures are not pleasent
« Last Edit: July 22, 2002, 09:29:25 pm by John_fraser »
 

Offline jet

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2002, 10:53:29 pm »
I recall on the vets in practice series that one of the vets who went to Dulverton ( Somerset) said she would not have gone there if she had known what she was in for.
Horses with broken legs and hearts , driven by hunters to exhaustion, hounds with fox bite marks, put down because they were not viable to treat. Not to mention the occasional cat kill.
It is unaceptable to treat horses in this way and I am afraid that hunting with dogs which if modified could be a fun sport is doomed to die a death itself in time.
regards,
jet,
Lets not also forget the barbaric "sport" of Ottering with Beagles which goes on in the West Country.
 

Offline Birch

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2002, 12:23:16 pm »
I think what also should be mentioned is the attitude of the hunts people.  They seem to think they are on a moral high ground and quite possibly far better than either you or me - which also should be stamped out!

For instance, about 2 years back now, I passed a group of mounted hunts people, red jackets, shiney boots etc. on a small B road.  As courtesy, I slowed my car down in order not to frighten the horses, as I always do when I see horses in the road.  However, when one of the hunts people saw me gave me the haughtiest glare ever.  I have no idea why and haven't forgotten it to this day. He obviously had issues.

Birch
 

Ed

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2002, 02:25:04 pm »
Most of the talk is on fox hunting, but I wondered what peoples' views were on mink hunting, as hunting these animals (which have usually been let out by animal activists and cause huge damage to native wildlife) with hounds seems to be the most effective way of controlling them ??? ???

Also how far do you go with banning killing?? At least foxes have a chance, where as pheasant shooting gives the birds no chance at all? Is it just because they're cute and cuddly? You wouldn't think twice about killing a tapeworm if yo had one but surely that has a right to live too :) :) :)

 

Offline Mooniemad

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2002, 03:01:14 pm »
  
Quote
where as pheasant shooting gives the birds no chance at all?

Actually it depends on how good a shot the hunter has. So yes the pheasant does have a chance but not good one. I feel any sort of slaughtering of an organism is wrong and so no it isn't just because the fox is cute.
 

Offline Ann

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2002, 11:57:54 pm »
Hunting with hounds; the aim being to tear an animal to pieces, is not only cruel, but unnecessary. Whether foxes are pests or indiscriminate killers, is no excuse for this barbaric practice.
Surely, there are more humane ways of controling these creatures.
Infact when you consider how humans treat  each other, what hope is there for animals.

Finally a quote by Samual Johnson (British Lexicographer)  

'It is very strange and very melancholy, that the paucity of human pleasure should persuade us ever to call hunting one of them'  
 

Offline jet

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2002, 12:52:38 am »
Hunting is a very basic human survival instinct, which like most things has evolved into an "art". :)
It is a pleasurable way of getting the food needed to sustain life, and was sustainable untill we over poulated the world. :o
That said there is no need for unneccasary cruelty. :'(
We have not really evolved that much, based on the time expended on work to pay for our survival. We are quite pityfull compared to even neolithic man (person) :) It is reckoned that they only needed to work 20 hours a week to survive, this explains the amount of time left over for art.
Now what would be the better option, stuck in a factory / office / sat on the M25? or shooting a deer with an arrow and pigging out for the rest of the week. Because thats what our ancestors did ;)
MPs start their hols ( if they can do any less) so no ban this side of Xmas.
regards,
jet
 

John_fraser

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Re: Hunting with hounds
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2002, 02:40:25 am »
Quote

Also how far do you go with banning killing??


Who said anything about a ban on killing? The posts have been about a stop to unneccasary cruelty.
 

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