Author Topic: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park  (Read 9997 times)

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Offline James Bentall

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Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« on: September 18, 2016, 07:32:27 pm »
Great Northern/Thameslink have released a consultation about services from Brookmans Park from December 2018 onwards. Although there are slight improvements to the Peak time services, they are consulting on reducing the current 3 times an hour service during the day and evening (outside the peak) from 3 trains an hour to 2 trains an hour - see the spreadsheet here:


http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/dow...on-comparison/


Now, if this came with a 33% reduction in my fare, I wouldn't have a problem with it, however I suspect this is unlikely.


The full consultation document is available here:


Timetable Consultation document



The headline states there will be 4 trains per hour from WGC going South, but from reading the document above, two of them must be going to be semi-fast missing out Welham Green, Brookmans Park and Hadley Wood.


The relevant question to reply to is Question 78 on page 64.


If you are a train user, please do take the time to reply to ensure we at a minimum keep the same level of service we have at the moment!


O and if you ever use trains from Watton-on-Stone to Stevenage you might want to reply as well as they are planning to change that to a permanent rail replacement bus service!


James

James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 
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Offline Nobby

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2016, 06:53:48 pm »
Page 71 appears to imply that the stopping train will in future run four times an hour at all times, unless you want to go Harringay or Hornsey during peak hours. Mind you just twice an hour would be a huge improvement on the current levels of service at weekends.

Today I noted that the 7.27 was over 10 minutes late for the second time this week, and the ticket office wasn't open for business again.
I'm still awaiting compensation for my delayed train on the 15th. My request for an update was met with the standard response stating I would be dealt with in 20 working days. Does that mean I'll have to wait 40 days now for my miserable compensation.
 

Offline Paul Zukowskyj

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2016, 09:48:14 pm »
A local resident has pointed out the changes according to the spreadsheet, however a very knowledgable colleague thinks this might be a mistake in the spreadsheet.

I emailed the Govia press office to ask which it was. They responded immediately, despite it being after 8pm, and they're checking.

Am intending to talk to the WHTimes tomorrow, whichever way it is, so hopefully you'll find out soon whether this is really what they're proposing or whether someone put a number in wrong.

Cheers,

Paul
 

Offline Local Walker

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2016, 08:58:28 pm »
When looking at services on the Hertford Loop, a similar situation will occur with semi-fasts also being introduced. Crews Hill will lose out but bizarrely Bayford, which has three times less usage than Crews Hill is to gain more trains. Why is Crews Hill the only station on the loop being omitted?
 

Offline Paul Zukowskyj

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2016, 09:09:49 pm »
Got a call from the strategic manager of Govia trains on Wednesday, it's no mistake, the service from Brookmans Park, Welham Green and Hadley Wood is to be cut. His explanation was the increased traffic on the line makes the logistics of stopping all four trains impossible.

Apparently they're modifying the table in the online consultation to reflect the real changes.

I'd encourage everyone concerned about these changes to comment, it is after all a consultation. If enough people object, they might not implement the changes and the service will stay as it is currently (whether that's good or bad is over to you!).

Cheers,

Paul
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2016, 09:33:50 pm »
Got a call from the strategic manager of Govia trains on Wednesday, it's no mistake, the service from Brookmans Park, Welham Green and Hadley Wood is to be cut. His explanation was the increased traffic on the line makes the logistics of stopping all four trains impossible.

Increased traffic on the line, without a doubt however I suspect this is also about revenue protection - by missing out stations they can build more 'slack' into the timetable which means they won't be fined so much if running late as they are more likely to make up time on the way.
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2016, 09:34:26 pm »
When looking at services on the Hertford Loop, a similar situation will occur with semi-fasts also being introduced. Crews Hill will lose out but bizarrely Bayford, which has three times less usage than Crews Hill is to gain more trains. Why is Crews Hill the only station on the loop being omitted?

I guess because most of the all station trains for the inner section are due to terminate at Gordon Hill the proceeding station.
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 

Offline Local Walker

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2016, 09:41:05 pm »
When looking at services on the Hertford Loop, a similar situation will occur with semi-fasts also being introduced. Crews Hill will lose out but bizarrely Bayford, which has three times less usage than Crews Hill is to gain more trains. Why is Crews Hill the only station on the loop being omitted?

I guess because most of the all station trains for the inner section are due to terminate at Gordon Hill the proceeding station.


Onlt 2tph will terminate at Gordon Hill, 4tph will continue to Hertford
 

Offline Angel

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2016, 10:15:07 pm »
I wouldn't mind too much if they reduced the timetable provided they didn't then cancel the few trains scheduled.
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2016, 05:01:52 pm »
Response from Govia via Grant below. I would encourage people to fill in the consultation response!



Edited to embed pdf (please check here for instructions about how to embed pdfs)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 05:46:58 pm by Editor »
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
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Offline Editor

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2016, 05:56:26 pm »
I would encourage people to fill in the consultation response!

Thanks James, I am embedding the consultation document you referred to in your original post.

The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline PinguCol

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 04:01:29 pm »
The timetable consultation document seems to imply on P71 that the drop to two trains per hour applies at all times, not just off peak. It states:



"Note: Welham Green and Brookmans Park have 2 tph.


Note 1: Hadley Wood off peak has 2 tph"


suggesting that we get two trains per hour at all times, whereas Hadley Wood gets two per hour off peak. This could be a mistake in the document, of course.


The letter to Grant Shapps, meanwhile, says two trains per hour "off-peak" are sufficient for demand.


Obviously, a reduction in service during peak hours would have a serious impact on commuters. Does anyone have any insight as to the actual plan?


Thanks!



 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 08:14:37 am »
Email received from customer services yesterday
Quote
To answer your original query I would like to advise that you were indeed correct in assuming that of the 4 trains per hour running on route GN5 during daytime only 2 will actually stop at all stations. On Smaller stations like Welham Green and Brookmans Park there will consequently be only 2 trains per hour.

Peak time service is going to be much as it is at the moment, I think there is one extra train in the morning and two extra in the evening (over the 3 hours of the peak).

I see their point about daytime services which are fairly quiet, however cutting evening services down from 3 to 2 would not be so good.

Edited to fix font
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 08:37:18 am by Editor »
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
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Offline Editor

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 08:41:00 am »
Email received from customer services yesterday
Quote
To answer your original query I would like to advise that you were indeed correct in assuming that of the 4 trains per hour running on route GN5 during daytime only 2 will actually stop at all stations. On Smaller stations like Welham Green and Brookmans Park there will consequently be only 2 trains per hour.

Thanks James, they've certainly been doing their best to get us used to the change.  :-\
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Offline Nimbus

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 11:07:54 am »
Presumably the 4tph are intended to run an equal-interval service. So the alternate pair which whisk through North Mymms will then have to dawdle or sit at signals to avoid closing the interval further up the route on the train preceding?


In other words, shaving costs by reducing wear and tear, rather than releasing capacity.
 
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Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2016, 11:13:48 am »
Well quite. One of the points I made in my reply to the consultation is that if they can manage within the infrastructure to run 4 trains per hour during the peak when the lines are the busiest why can't they manage off-peak as well?


% in increase in footfall at Brookmans Park Station (13%) and Welham Green Station (22%) has been larger than Hatfield (11%) and WGC (12%) in the last 5 years figures are available, yet they are the ones getting the increase in services whilst we get a reduction. And that's before they (maybe) building lots more homes in the village to put yet more pressure on the village infrastructure...


James

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Offline shads

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2016, 12:44:35 pm »
so as I read it we will only get 2 trains an hour during peak times, where at the moment we get 4, and Hadley Wood will get 4 trains an hour still at peak times, even though from my observations there are a lot more people getting on and off at Brookmans Park than there are at Hadley Wood ( can't speak for Welham Green). Makes no sense at all
 
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Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2016, 02:31:30 pm »
so as I read it we will only get 2 trains an hour during peak times, where at the moment we get 4, and Hadley Wood will get 4 trains an hour still at peak times, even though from my observations there are a lot more people getting on and off at Brookmans Park than there are at Hadley Wood ( can't speak for Welham Green). Makes no sense at all


No, the peak time service will stay the same (and in fact will be slightly strengthened; we will get one or two more in both the morning and evening), however it is the daytime and post 7pm service levels that will suffer.

According to the ticket selling figures Hadley Wood has around 30% more customers than Brookmans Park, however I agree this is not what I see. I wonder if this is distorted by the fact it is the last station within the underground zone system and therefore people buy split tickets to there.

James
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Offline shads

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2016, 04:43:21 pm »
The reason I thought we were only getting 2 tph at peak is that I read the consultation form the way PinguCol read it.

Note: Welham Green and Brookmans Park have 2 tph.
Note 1: Hadley Wood off peak has 2 tph"

Which seems to infer we only get 2 tph at all times.
James, which part should I be looking at which says we will get four trains per hour during peak times because i've had other people asking me the question also and they have all so far interpreted the document as saying we will only get 2 tph in peak also.
 

 
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2016, 06:58:16 pm »
If you go right up to the top of the thread and click on the first link I posted to the big spreadsheet this shows you the number of trains we are going to get at different times of the day to the local stations. The peak service is being slightly enhanced, whilst it is daytime/evening services that are being cut.


What we have not been told yet (as far as I am aware) is exact service patterns - although we are getting four trains an hour during the peak I don't know where they will all go! They may all go to Moorgate, or they may go through the 'core' South of the river. Will have to wait for next consultation to find that one out...


Thanks


James

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Offline Susan

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2016, 09:02:51 pm »
even though from my observations there are a lot more people getting on and off at Brookmans Park than there are at Hadley Wood ( can't speak for Welham Green).

According to the ticket selling figures Hadley Wood has around 30% more customers than Brookmans Park,


My children commute from WG to PB for school. However, we buy their season ticket every half term from PB, because the ticket office at WG is always shut. It would register as a season ticket from PB to WG. Also, the ticket machine is often not working, so ticket sales there don't necessarily reflect actual passenger numbers. (Thinking about it, that may actually a major factor in ticket selling figures. Have they taken this into account?)


Another point - many people using the trains in the evening will be commuters staying out later, so how are these passengers accounted for? Have they done a survey of actual passenger numbers?
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2016, 10:07:20 am »
Sorry for any confusion, they count the number of tickets which state (for example) Welham Green as a start or a finish point, it does not matter where the ticket is purchased. They also count the people using the station as an interchange. See


http://orr.gov.uk/statistics/published-stats/station-usage-estimates


if you want to trawl through all the data!


James

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Offline Susan

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2016, 10:22:26 am »
That's interesting, thank you.
So presumably season tickets don't indicate when people are getting the train - it might be in the evening when they propose cutting the service.
Also, the broken ticket machine must have led to some undercounting, as the open barriers mean that people may not buy a ticket at the other end.
 

Offline Michael C

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2016, 09:05:40 am »
My thoughts are 1) they haven't collected data properly, or counted paper tickets at b park and h wood (h wood only looked at oyster data!) 2) we not safe on peak time as they haven't released pre 7am ie our peak 3) the number of seats on the actual trains are falling by 25% as its more standing style! This is a joke. At h wood they organising a petition, perhaps we should do that. If we have a brookmans pub night to discuss... I'd love to come to it. Apparently we need to submit our pretty soon
 

Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2016, 11:41:13 am »
It is a bit fiddly to ascertain from the official consultation what is happening at any given railway station. the graphic below is the exert relevant to Brookmans Park.

(Please click on thumbnail image below to reveal the full-sized version.)



As you will know, the proposal is to cut the off-peak service to two trains per hour. This is unacceptable to those who travel into town during the day. All the more so given the unreliability of the service.  The Phase 1 consultation runs until 8 December 2016. Please respond to it.

Grant.

(Edited to fix large image that was distorting the forum page)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 04:09:02 pm by Editor »
 
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Offline shads

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2016, 04:45:19 pm »
Grant any idea pre 7.00am for us early birds ?
 

Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2016, 04:48:16 pm »
No and it's odd that it's not mentioned as far as I can see. Well worth responding along those lines in the consultation.


UPDATE: I'm tabling Parliamentary Questions today about Great Northern's hopeless service. The only thing you can more or less guarantee right now is that your train will be running late (or maybe cancelled).
 
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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2016, 04:53:27 pm »
Good, thanks,  they need holding to account!!
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2017, 07:55:14 am »
The proposed timetable has now been released. I have attached a summary to this post via PDF but the headline fact is that our Northbound train serice is being reduced by 17%.

This comes despite an increase in passenger numbers at the station by 15% between 2012-2016, and with the possibility of new housing being built in the area as well.

I would urge residents to reply to gtr.timetableconsultation@gtrailway.com pointing this out. They are running four 'all stations' trains from London to Welwyn Garden City every hour, however only two of them are stopping at Brookmans Park and Welham Green outside the peak. During the peak they manage all four, so it must be possible from a timetabling point of view!

The website to view all the proposals at is

https://www.transformingrail.com

James

<a href="http://www.brookmans.com/pdfs/GN%20trains.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.brookmans.com/pdfs/GN%20trains.pdf</a>
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 09:40:18 am by Editor »
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Offline southbury

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Re: Consultation on reducing train services to Brookmans Park
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2017, 11:53:10 am »
So Privatisation has led to a slower, less frequent, less reliable, more expensive ( on an absolute and Indexed basis) than we had under BR.
 

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