Author Topic: Chancellor's admissions policy  (Read 101567 times)

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jthomas

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2004, 05:43:14 pm »
     Yes that's right but it means that a fairly equal amount of children get places from each feeder school, whereas most of the places would be taken up from a relatively small amount of schools or eg (correct me if i'm wrong) there is a possibility that 45 out of 170 places could be taken by BP alone! Thus leaving children particulary in Hatfield with the only real option of Onslow, although it is coming on leaps and bounds it has just come off special measures. If Chancellor's were in the same position as Onslow you would not be happy if it was the only real option for your child, I know that when some children do not get places @ Chancellors or Owens and end up with Mount Grace many parents have in recent years decided to pay for the education and send them to schools such as St John's - this is not an option for most parents either financially or morally and particulary in Hatfield and Potters Bar. Therefore as always Chancellors takes from a wide catchment  area which is right when you look at the real options for children in PB and Hatfield (boys in particular in Hatfield) I commend Chancellors for taking this 'inclusive' standpoint when they became so heavily over subscribed. I realise that this is difficult for all when we do not get he place we want. It is good to see how well Chancellor do in the league tables whilst using this selection criteria- the results for 2003 showed they got 75% A-C without selecting on academic ability only 20% less than Owen's who select heavily so as you would expect got 95%. It is worth mentioning that Onslow got 19% in the same year -although this has dramatically improved and is still improving. Although culturally this policy may not create that much diversity it surely creates some social diversity. It is wonderful to go to a new school and meet new people rather than staying with the same people for another 5-7 yrs. Please I do understand how awful it can be but it is this disappointing for every child that does not get the place they want regardless of where thy live.  
 

Hampton_Wick

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #181 on: January 03, 2005, 11:55:53 am »
So jthomas,

Do you think it is fair, reasonable and OK for parents in BP to have to drive their children to a school in PB and cross parents in PB driving their children to school in BP???

Makes no sence to me.

Surely the best solution is to forget the feeder schools and Chancellors take the applying pupils who live closest, Onslow does the same, and Mount Grace does the same.  That way it is more likely that pupils can walk to school, which is better for their health and reduces the number of cars involved in the school run.

Also the school will be more "Serving the community" rather than a school serving pupils from a radius of who knows.

 

jthomas

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #182 on: January 03, 2005, 12:38:11 pm »
   Judging by the amount of traffic including the ever so crucial 4wd that are around BP primary school at the beginning and end of school I would be suprised if the children would be fit enough to walk anywhere.
   However some people from BP will continue to attempt to get their children into Owen's or pay for their education as has always happened nothing will change this and therefore am I right in understanding that it ok to send a child from BP to a school in PB because it is perceived to be a good school but wrong to send a child into BP. It is OK to have the issue of traffic in PB but not BP ? Does the phrase 'not on my doorstep' sound familiar?
    Children have been bussed into BP from the surrounding areas since Chancelors opened, the school could not survive on chilren from BP alone-this is a fact whatever happens chidren will have to get a bus or coach.
     Also this is not the only issue that we need to consider, if Chancellors was a failing school then we wouldn't hear a peep! I don't suppose people would want to send their children to the nearest school if it were on special measures?Or is someone really going to suggest that they would choose to send their child to a school that was failing because it was closest ! This is what is suggested as being ok for other chidren but i doubt that it would be acceptable for many. It would be wonderful if people put this much effort into supporting the schools in the area and seeing what can be done rather than trying to cover their own backs and then there would be less fighting over places as al children would be given similar if not equal opportunities.
     
 

Offline Margaret

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #183 on: January 03, 2005, 06:29:39 pm »
jthomas
Not quite sure if I understand your post. Chancellors was  built in the first place to accomodate the children of Brookmans Park and the surrounding villages as Potters Bar had their own excellent school as did Hatfield. When Chancellors was threatened with closer the local people helped the school fight for its survival as it was sorely needed as always to accomodate the local villages. Obviously living in a village means transport to your senior school unless there happens to be one in your village like Brookmans Park. It just seems pointless to live in Brookmans Park and send your children to Potters Bar or to live in Potters Bar and send your children to Brookmans Park. Because of the strange admissions policy local people are having to send there children out of the local area. Back to the age old problem, why live in a village if you want a town life. Support your local school wherever you live and force the council and government to improve all schools in all subjects. Then children wouldn't have to be wasting their precious childhood sitting on buses, trains or in cars. A lot of children spend so much time travelling I shouldn't think they have much time to relax or play.
 

jthomas

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #184 on: January 03, 2005, 08:54:50 pm »
      
The problem with this debate is that it goes around in circles; I would be interested to see where on earth the evidence is to suggest that Chancellors was built to serve Brookmans Park and the surrounding villages? The entire area including PB and Hatfield needed another secondary modern for those who did not get into Grammer school Mount Grace was massively over subscribed and BP had the land. Unless it is the suggestion that the children from BP and the surrounding areas were incapable of getting into the grammer schools then I don't see where the argument goes. I wonder if its always those with a vested interest that create these points.

When Chancellors was threatened with closure it was the work of the staff including people like Colin Evans, the governors, the pupils and the parents of the pupils that protested and campaigned so hard to keep it open- I think it is very self congratulatory and short sighted to peddle the belief that it was all down to the residents of the village! I know several people that worked tirelessly to keep Chancellors open and they did not live in the village, don't get me wrong i'm sure some people in the village did their bit, but everyone did their bit and it rather bores me to see the same thing again just a year or so later.
     
Chancellors admissions criteria has absolutley no effect on me but it makes me uneasy when I see so many people disreagarding the education of the children in the area- I notice the last post did not address the fact that so many of the pupils are driven to and picked up from the primary school -i see this daily in term time and it is v disturbing! Or consider whether anyone would be making a sound if Chancellors were on special measures- I believe the fact that it is a good school is the driving force in this debate and most people want to have as a back up if they do not get into Owen's etc. It is my guess that these issues will not be responded to as perhaps it is a concern for many that their chidren will not be fit enough to walk to Chancellors if they do get a place, It is easy to sit back and argue for a place at a school that is perceived as 'good' but as i said if Chancellors was failing then again we would not hear a sound..............  
 

John_fraser

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #185 on: January 03, 2005, 09:47:32 pm »
Quote
it means that a fairly equal amount of children get places from each feeder school

Sorry, but you still don’t understand the admissions policy. Over subscription is pro-ratted across the schools. So if 40 children from BP apply and Chancellors if 100% over applied, then 20 will get places – assuming no other criteria apply. Another school with 60 applicants will see 30 children get places. Not equal, or even fairly equal – which ever version of fairly or equal you meant.


Quote
I would be interested to see where on earth the evidence is to suggest that Chancellors was built to serve Brookmans Park and the surrounding villages

I have a letter dated 9th June 2003 from Mr Wormleighton, the then headmaster, which states: “When Chancellor’s was built in 1964 and located in Brookmans Park, being a rural school, it was intended to serve the seven local villages that fall within a three mile radius of Chancellor’s.”

The admissions criteria of Chancellor’s has no direct effect on me either, but I feel this is a grossly unfair policy. If Chancellor’s was the fourth best school in the area – instead of the second best – there would be no arguments, because no-one from Potters Bar or Hatfield would send their children there as first choice. Instead, the places would be initially filled by children living in Brookmans Park. These children would be unable to get into the other schools because these schools exercise the fairer method of allocating places by distance.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2005, 09:49:05 pm by John_fraser »
 

MikeL

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #186 on: January 04, 2005, 11:36:40 am »
Quote
I feel the current admissions policy is fair and I myself will be in the same situation in a few years when I try to get my children into Chancellors.
jthomas 18/03/2003

Quote
Chancellors admissions criteria has absolutley no effect on me
jthomas 03/01/2005

I suspect that someone is not quite as impartial as they may claim!

Deja Vous!
 

jthomas

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #187 on: January 04, 2005, 12:42:37 pm »
       Yes i understand the admissions policy thank you - no school gets preferred status.

Fair play!!!! I posted that on the 17th March 2003 and I was v surprised as I have no recollection of it; I can only assume I trying to be sympathic, however I will be trying to get my children into Chancellors or it will at least be one of our 3 choices assuming that we are still living in the area. If Chancellors stick to the admissions criteria they have now they have very little chance of getting a place there. My children will learn that we do not always get what we want just because we want it and they will do well where ever they go. If Chancellors change the criteria to  proximity to the school then my children will almost certainly get a place and spend another 7 yrs with exactly the same children they are at primary school with. I hope that my children choose a school they have more chance of getting into so they are not disappointed but some children will be disappointed as they are every yr wherever they live, which ever feeder school they attend they are as affected as each other. It is also worth mentioning that my eldest child is 5 YEARS OLD therefore I am not terribly concerned how the admissions criteria will affect me at the moment but I am concerned about the attitude of many people with regards to the education of the children in the area.

I hate to point it out again but I keep responding to the posts and in particular the issues raised in the posts, however whatever I say seems to be ignored and people keep throwing random arguments unrelated to the previous posts points so there seems to be little point of continuing in this vain. This is not a discussion i am just responding to random arguments and although not dificult it is a little tedious at times.

It is v emotive for many especially when BP did have preferred status, but now Chancellors is v over subscribed and things change as I'm sure they will again, but hopefully no school will get preferred status over another. It will be interesting to see how the admissions criteria would change should Mount Grace or Onslow become over subscribed.  
 

Offline Margaret

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #188 on: January 04, 2005, 02:12:31 pm »
Jthomas
I think you’ll find I said the local residents ‘helped’ the school fight against the closure. I was one of a great number of local residents (and by local I don’t just mean BP) who fought alongside and campaigned against this closure. I had no children at the school although I had planned to send them there. I have no children there now and have no vested interest in the school now. I just believe that children shouldn’t have to spend a lot of their precious lives travelling backwards and forwards to school on transport when they could WALK a short distance. If Mount Grace was, as you say, oversubscribed when Chancellors was threatened with closure, why were they also threatened. I feel now, as I did then that the local councils were playing the residents of BP & PB off against one another. Fortunately good sense prevailed and neither school was closed. Both schools had excellent reputations until for some reason Mount Grace was left to decline, left without a Head to guide them for some time. Fortunately this has been rectified and Mount Grace has the ability to return to it’s previous excellent reputation. Both schools are needed, Mount Grace to serve the needs of Potters Bar and Chancellors to serve the needs of Brookmans Park and the surrounding villages. Any admissions policy that prevents local children from attending their local school (no matter where) is WRONG!
 

jthomas

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #189 on: January 05, 2005, 08:56:05 pm »
      No Mount Grace was over subscribed when Chancellors was built not when it was threatened with closure, and yes when I attended Chancellors, Chancellors was again threatened with closure along with Mount Grace and there was even talk of a merger. Mount Grace is in fact an incredibly nice school that has achieved an awful lot recently. It was a flag ship school when it was first built, the first or second comprehensive school in the country or something along those lines but I cannot remember the article exactly.
     I don't think there is any need to play off parents in BP and PB, but children from Potters Bar have always attended Chancellors, this is not something new as have children from Cuffley, Hatfield, South Mymms etc. Yes all those places within that magic 3 mile radius. I also think that it would be wonderful if the children did walk to school but daily I have to battle through the village at the beginning and end of school when the children from the primary schoolare being driven around, many, many, many do not WALK now why are they going to start when they reach secondary school? Strangely enough perhaps bussing the children in on coaches etc may help the traffic issue as each coach can take around 40 children??? but the cars (often huge 4wd) that I regulary see have 1 or possibly 2 children in.
           
 

Offline Mark_Eric

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #190 on: September 25, 2005, 11:14:39 am »
I understand that the Chancellor's admission policy has changed, or is being changed. Does anybody have any info??
 
 

Offline speedwell

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #191 on: September 25, 2005, 01:09:01 pm »
best place to look is www.hertsdirect.co.uk under the schools online section. 
Somewhere under this section is an electronic booklet that lists all the schools in Hertfordshire and shows there entrance criteria for the forthcoming year.  Criteria for the applications in October is normally agreed the previous Feb.  Hope this helps 
 

tubbs

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #192 on: September 25, 2005, 07:48:23 pm »
The admissions criteria for Chancellor’s have indeed changed for the September 2006 intake. The criteria are:
1)   Children with a statement of educational needs that names Chancellor’s School
2)   Brother or sister currently at Chancellor’s
3)   Proven aptitude in music
4)   Attending named primary school
5)   Proximity to Chancellor’s

A key change is that no longer will priority be given to children whose siblings attended Chancellor’s in the past.

Also, in the case of over-subscription under criterion 4, the number of places given to each listed primary school (of which there are 19) will be by fixed percentages. In the case of Brookmans Park School the percentage has been fixed at 9 per cent.
Also, within each primary school’s allocation of places, proximity to Chancellor’s by the ‘shortest designated route’ will be used to decide priority. Previously, proximity by ‘direct line’ or as the crow flies has been used. This was to the advantage of parents in, say, Peplins Way and  the disadvantage of people in the centre of the village.

The hertsdirect website does contain this information but is buried very deep! I attach an extracted copy. Hope this helps.

 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #193 on: September 25, 2005, 09:20:51 pm »
3)   Proven aptitude in music

Seems a little odd that a school that is specialising in Maths and Computing is giving priority to gifted music students  :icon_scratch:

This information is in the downloaded file (thanks for that link, very useful), but the number of children additmitted under the 'past sibling' rule over the last 3 years is 11, 4 and 8, so shouldn't make a huge difference.

James
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I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 

Offline Mark_Eric

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #194 on: September 26, 2005, 09:49:38 pm »
Thanks for the various reply's.

The change of criteria at Chancellors is the very worst news for me. I have two children at BP Primary, who have little interest in music and I live in Peplins Way! From having an average chance, I now have virtually no chance.

Removing the 'Past Siblings' rule does seem fair as does the new 'shortest designated route' (although it not good for me). However, whilst some people will argue that taking children from across the area is a fairer admission's policy, selecting children on the basis of musical talent seems to go against this. It seems very arbitrary, why no sports criteria? for example.

Also, the percentages chosen for each school seem to defy logic. You would think that the schools closest to Chancellors would have a higher percentage. Yet, Little Heath have only 6% of children going to Chancellors, whilst Cranbourne have 9%. BP Primary have 9%, yet so do Oakmere. And a school as far away as Cuffley have been allocated 8%!

Would not the fairest system of all, be proximity to Chancellors of your home, regardless of what talent you have or which primary school you go to? If it is so much fairer to take children from a number of schools, why stop at only 19 feeder schools, why not more? If my child went to the 20th furthest school from Chancellors, i would think the system unfair.

Perhaps I am too biased to see it clearly, but it seems a strange admissions system!
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #195 on: September 26, 2005, 10:26:03 pm »
I too live in Peplins Way and I have three children at BP Primary  School. I'm quite horrified that there's a real possibility that my children may not have the choice to attend the village school.

Of course, it may be that in a year or two (my eldest is 8 ) the admissions policy may change again in my favour, but somehow I doubt that Chancellors will ever give priority to 'their' village.

How is musical ability to be demonstrated ? It seems that some parents who can afford to have music lessons for their children will be at an unfair advantage - it would be nice to be able to afford for example piano lessons at £15/half hour two or three times a week but for many that isn't an option.

I used to attend Chancellors myself in the 1970s and would like my children to be able to go there - in my childhood local children were guaranteed a place. No wonder there's so much traffic on the road at school time with children having to travel miles to get to school.

 

Offline jet

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #196 on: September 26, 2005, 11:14:38 pm »
Here we are in the 21st century, doing all kinds of wonderfull things.
Yet a situation exists all over the country where local children cannot attend local schools.
Its about time that all schools were equal and children had to attend the nearest school.
The problem I fear was perhaps caused by certain parents wanting unfair advantages for their siblings and treating education as a form of one upmanship. " oh my Jimmy goes to chancellors" etc.
The education system is a shambles that exists as an industry to line the pockets ( and elevate the social status ) of those involved in the higher echelons of it.
Money for books, money for special lesons, money for personal tutors, the list is endless.
Teaching is a hard, thankless task, which prematurely wears out those involved at the sharp end.
It is made that way by politicians who as with almost any subject have no idea what they interfeering in.
Rant over,
regards,
jet
And the result is 4wds cluttering up the roads twice a day!
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #197 on: September 27, 2005, 02:11:18 pm »
Also, the percentages chosen for each school seem to defy logic. You would think that the schools closest to Chancellors would have a higher percentage. Yet, Little Heath have only 6% of children going to Chancellors, whilst Cranbourne have 9%. BP Primary have 9%, yet so do Oakmere. And a school as far away as Cuffley have been allocated 8%!

According to the downloadable information above, the percentage has been calculated according to the number of children that have attending Chancellors from that school in the past, and also taking into account the size of the year group (BP Primary have potentially 45 kids, whereas I believe Little Heath is a single form entry school so would have around 30 kids)

James
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I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 

AgentOrange

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #198 on: September 28, 2005, 03:58:35 pm »
Why does a specialist maths and computing school use music as a criteria in its selection policy? Odd.....I would have thought mathematical ability or IT skills would have been more appropriate. What next year - cooking ability?

The policy may also be in conflict with the Specialist Schools strategy, which states 'Specialist schools support learning in and through their communities.' Bit hard to do that when the children in the local community cannot get in!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2005, 04:18:22 pm by AgentOrange »
 

Offline jet

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #199 on: September 28, 2005, 09:47:48 pm »
Could the answer be that it gives an easy way for them to refuse admissions.
IE there are not many primary aged children with a musical ability, therefore mathematicaly it means less meet the criteria, therefore not many are eligible.
I thought the idea of a secondary school was to teach subjects, not for the child to be proficient before they got there.
Gosh 11 years old never played an instrument and now to old to learn.
Would it not be amusing if the music section got oversubscribed and they had to refuse admission to those with musical ability.
regards,
jet
 

tubbs

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #200 on: September 30, 2005, 08:51:44 pm »
In reply to Jet, the music criterion is heavily over-subscribed, so much so that each year two Saturdays are set aside by Chancellor’s for applicants to take a music aptitude test. There are only 17 places available and many children with musical ability do not get in. The point about this criterion is that children from anywhere can apply: they do not even have to live in Hertfordshire!
Mark-Eric asks why there is no sport category. In fact there used to be one but it was dropped on the grounds that it was too difficult to test, objectively and independently, for sporting aptitude. Under the sport rule, only around 6 places were available each year and the standards were so high that even county-level performance did not guarantee admission.
As for dropping the past sibling rule, this could make a significant difference. In 2003, when Brookmans Park School parents challenged Chancellor’s at a hearing at County Hall, they were told that the past sibling rule was of little consequence as “only two or three” children were admitted under it each year. Yet that very year no fewer than 11 got in -  far more than the number of Brookmans Park pupils admitted under criterion 4!
It is good that the past sibling criterion has been dropped and, although obviously bad news for Peplins Way people, it is also fair that the “shortest designated route” is used to determine priority under criteria 4 and 5, rather than as the crow flies.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #201 on: September 30, 2005, 10:47:31 pm »
Ah ha, so the music criteria is really just a red herring, numbers wise.
The writer envisiged a comprehensive musical section.
17 musicians, surely that only means less than one dedicated teacher, who must be some kind of musical wonder, with the ability to teach many instruments or is there a limit to the type of instrumental prodigys allowed. IE just piano or violin, whatever.
The music criteria thus shows itself to be a real farce as far as admissions go.
I should imagine some local parents must be really annoyed at this revelation.
regards,
jet
 

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #202 on: October 10, 2005, 05:11:00 pm »
Hertfordshire County Council says parents and guardians wanting to apply online for secondary school places have until Friday 21 October to complete the form. Click here for more details.
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline Nonloso

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #203 on: October 12, 2005, 01:40:23 pm »
Don't bother with Chancellors - apply to Mount Grace. The new headmaster has improved it greatly in the last couple of years and it's still getting better. They make a great effort to be involved with the community, including BP school. It's easy to get to by bus. The children there are no better or no worse than the ones who go to Chancellors. Much better to be associated with a place where there really is a will to make things better and where the staff are committed and enthusiastic. Don't give Chancellors the satisfaction of rejecting you!
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #204 on: October 12, 2005, 03:57:35 pm »
A friend of mine is a parent governor at Chancellors and he too has said that Mount Grace has improved in recent years. Possibly it has a way to go before it can be regarded as good as Chancellors but still much better than a few years ago..

It also seems that Chancellors would like to take more pupils from BP Primary and people living in the village, but are not allowed to because of government policy. So it seems that it's not really fair to accuse Chancellors of not supporting the local community, rather they have to consider their whole catchment area as a whole.

Not a great comfort to BP residents in places like Peplins Way of course...like me...but then I would always give consideration to Owens and Mount Grace if they were more appropriate schools  for my children (which they might or might not be when the time comes). It would still be nice to have a guaranteed place at a local school, but don't think realistically it's going to happen.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 12:30:42 am by sasquartch »
 

tubbs

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #205 on: October 13, 2005, 10:31:50 pm »
If there is now a desire to admit more local children, as Sasquartch suggests, it represents a real change of heart. Two years ago Herts County Council passed a resolution asking Dr Philip Hunter, the national Schools’ Adjudicator, who was investigating the admissions system at Chancellor’s, to consider an alteration to the rules in order to give “priority to children living within two miles of the school”. This would have enabled all Brookmans Park youngsters who wanted to attend, to do so.
This was the response from Paul Wormleighton, the then headteacher: “The proposal goes completely against the wishes and beliefs of Chancellor’s governing body. It is not what they want. It is against everything the school stands for...”
Mr Wormleighton urged the adjudicator “not to be swayed by this resolution from the local authority”.
Dr Hunter was not swayed and Chancellor’s won the day, having rejected out of hand a proposal that would have helped village children.
In other words, although the school has to work within a statutory framework when determining its admissions policy, it was not the government that prevented the introduction of a two mile rule; it was Chancellor’s itself.
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Chancellor's admissions policy
« Reply #206 on: March 03, 2008, 04:15:42 pm »
Today is the day when parents of children in year 6 learn if they have been offered a place at the secondary school of their choice.

It will be interesting to know whether all BP children who put Chancellors as their first choice get offered places.
 

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