Author Topic: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field  (Read 142703 times)

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Offline motherchuck

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #210 on: March 10, 2014, 02:10:57 pm »
James your comment is not correct.
Welwyn Hatfield Council did not object to the application they supported it.
Local Councillor Bill Storey informed the planning committee that he knew the site well and confirmed the waterlogging problem.
The parish council did object to the proposals even though they had not visited the site. When invited for a site visit it was declined.
Likewise the Green Belt Society also declined an invitation to visit the site.
Letters were sent to 16 local residents to the site by Herts CC to comment and not one objected.
The application details were attached to the field gate for a month for any interested party to respond but no comments made.
Details of the appeal were attached to the field gate for a month for any interested party to respond but no comments made.
A road cleaning vehicle is making regular visits along Hawkshead Road at slow speed and will no doubt be a huge inconvenience
to contributors to this site but if it stops people rushing about the area so much the better.
 

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #211 on: March 10, 2014, 02:57:40 pm »
Which field is it in this embedded Google map of the area? Map data ©2014 Google Imagery ©2014 DigitalGlobe, Getmapping plc, Infoterra Ltd & Bluesky

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Offline James Bentall

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #212 on: March 10, 2014, 09:31:28 pm »
James your comment is not correct.
Welwyn Hatfield Council did not object to the application

Yes, sorry, that was a mistake. You are correct. I'm also glad to hear that the roads are going to be swept as mud on the road can be a safety hazard for all road users.

James
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I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 

Offline Mermaid

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #213 on: March 12, 2014, 08:14:25 pm »
I have removed a post from here which may be trolling.

The allegation will be investigated tomorrow and if true, the post will be re-instated.
 

Offline Mermaid

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #214 on: March 13, 2014, 10:37:41 am »
The post will not be re-instated and the forum member will be reminded that trolling is not allowed on this site.
 

Offline GGDT

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #215 on: March 15, 2014, 07:00:39 pm »
A road cleaning vehicle is making regular visits along Hawkshead Road at slow speed and will no doubt be a huge inconvenience to contributors to this site but if it stops people rushing about the area so much the better.

It's not doing a very good job, neither is the old boy with the broom who seems to be there every morning sweeping the road.

The road is that bumpy now from all the mud that travelling towards Little Heath is like driving along a cobbled street!
 

Offline saffie

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #216 on: March 16, 2014, 07:01:24 am »
Ring VOSA and complain about the road, if you tell them the site address and the companies transporting mud out of the site they will get down there and sort out. 

All trucks should be covered and all the ones I have seen are not.

They will act quickly and can revoke transport licenses with immediate effect if they are causing dangers to the road.

I have done this a few times to the sites on the A414 and Hatfield Road as they get dangerous with the amount of mud, aggregate that comes off.  They soon sort it out.
 

Offline larrylamb

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #217 on: March 17, 2014, 06:36:06 am »
Ring VOSA and complain about the road, if you tell them the site address and the companies transporting mud out of the site they will get down there and sort out. 

All trucks should be covered and all the ones I have seen are not.

They will act quickly and can revoke transport licenses with immediate effect if they are causing dangers to the road.

I have done this a few times to the sites on the A414 and Hatfield Road as they get dangerous with the amount of mud, aggregate that comes off.  They soon sort it out.
Out on my motorcycle yesterday and couldn't believe how much mud was on the road! the first bit of rain will make that a lethal.

On the plus side at least the pot holes were filled!!!!
 

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #218 on: March 18, 2014, 02:43:04 pm »
Welwyn Hatfield Council did not object to the application they supported it.
Local Councillor Bill Storey informed the planning committee that he knew the site well and confirmed the waterlogging problem.
The parish council did object to the proposals even though they had not visited the site. When invited for a site visit it was declined.
Likewise the Green Belt Society also declined an invitation to visit the site.
Letters were sent to 16 local residents to the site by Herts CC to comment and not one objected.
The application details were attached to the field gate for a month for any interested party to respond but no comments made.
Details of the appeal were attached to the field gate for a month for any interested party to respond but no comments made.
A road cleaning vehicle is making regular visits along Hawkshead Road at slow speed and will no doubt be a huge inconvenience
to contributors to this site but if it stops people rushing about the area so much the better.

But can you confirm what is going on? It's been almost two weeks of lorries removing material and delivering material. It looks like a massive investment. What was the planning permission for, when will the work be over, and what is going to be done with the land when the work is finished?
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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #219 on: March 18, 2014, 03:18:08 pm »
Thanks to @WelHatCouncil for the tweeted reply:


I have uploaded the document as a pdf so I could embed it below.

<a href="http://www.brookmans.com/pdfs/devconctteeitem1new20121212.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.brookmans.com/pdfs/devconctteeitem1new20121212.pdf</a>
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Offline Mark Drinkwater

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #220 on: March 18, 2014, 05:49:07 pm »
The second condition of the Highway Authority is definitely not being adhered to and Hawkshead Road is covered in a staggering amount of mud and clay.

To someone's credit, the road is being swept by a road sweeper.  Unfortunately, it is no match for the job in hand. I followed one this morning on my bike and it had almost no impact other than polishing the hard-packed clay like a big shoe-shine machine.

i.e. From Page 9 on the pdf previously embedded by David Brewer.

(ii) a requirement that best practicable means are taken at all times to ensure that all vehicles leaving the development site during the construction of the development are in a condition such as not to emit dust or deposit mud, slurry or other debris on the highway, with efficient means being installed prior to commencement of the development and thereafter maintained and employed at all times during construction for the cleaning of wheels of all lorries leaving the site, in order to minimise the impact of construction vehicles and to improve the amenity of the area
 

Offline Aqila

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #221 on: March 18, 2014, 06:40:24 pm »
Re section 3.7 - so all of this is so that some chickens (which don't yet exist) can be seen from the road and the farm shop (which doesn't yet exist) sells more eggs!  As a marketing scheme this is ludicrous - indirect cost per egg (not yet laid) is likely to be thousands of pounds!

  I am amazed this reason was seen as a valid excuse!
 

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #222 on: March 18, 2014, 08:33:09 pm »
Re section 3.7 - so all of this is so that some chickens (which don't yet exist) can be seen from the road and the farm shop (which doesn't yet exist) sells more eggs!  As a marketing scheme this is ludicrous - indirect cost per egg (not yet laid) is likely to be thousands of pounds!

  I am amazed this reason was seen as a valid excuse!

What I can't understand is how something so strongly opposed in an earlier submission can get through. Surely this is about more than drainage, chickens and eggs.  I suppose there could be a new question. What came first, the chicken, egg or industrial/housing development?
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Offline hilarycarlen

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #223 on: March 18, 2014, 08:57:26 pm »
But it's nonsense isn't it?  This isn't about hens or hay, clearly. The owner's (interim) intention for the land was undisguised in his initial application: (quoted at 6.17 of the paper atached above)
" When the applicant was first questioned about the nature of the works, he indicated that he allowed car boot sales to take place on the land and wished to improve part of the field that was subject to flooding to prevent car boot sellers’ vehicles from becoming bogged down on the site. "
Car boot sales are doubtless profitable, so adding to the area he can use for that may help offset his investment whilst he waits for the planning laws to change so he can build an estate there - whereas keeping hens entails a great deal of work and even then it is close to impossible to make a profit.  I would be very surprised if he ever bothers to put hens on the land as they would only get in the way of his car-bootery (car booters aren't going to like competing with chicken poop...)  And I can't see much hay coming off the land either after a few thousand cars have driven over it!
 

Offline epiphany

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #224 on: March 18, 2014, 09:47:40 pm »
What is nonsense is that Borough Council are responsible for all planning applications other than waste which is dealt with by County Council ???
 

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #225 on: March 19, 2014, 04:44:24 pm »
There has been a lot more movement of lorries delivering than the estimated 12 per day. Very few have been covered trucks and the road is a disaster area. It is like driving down a cobbled road even after the road-sweeper has just been along. The two men with brooms are wasting their time! I just hope that when it rains no motorcyclist comes off his bike along that stretch. And as for the idea that chickens are to be kept in the field.....don't make me laugh.
 

Offline larrylamb

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #226 on: March 19, 2014, 05:31:47 pm »
There has been a lot more movement of lorries delivering than the estimated 12 per day. Very few have been covered trucks and the road is a disaster area. It is like driving down a cobbled road even after the road-sweeper has just been along. The two men with brooms are wasting their time! I just hope that when it rains no motorcyclist comes off his bike along that stretch. And as for the idea that chickens are to be kept in the field.....don't make me laugh.
what astounds me is the authorities, and I include the police in this, show no urgency in dealing with this potentially lethal situation, firstly to get the mess cleaned up and then those responsible to account.
 

Offline motherchuck

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #227 on: March 19, 2014, 05:52:09 pm »
A new road cleaning vehicle has been engaged and will be operating from tomorrow morning.
Planning permission was granted to solve water logging problems at the field.
The work has nothing to do with any form of development or traveller site, should be finished by next week and will be reseeded.
The work has nothing to do with boot sales and was granted permission on appeal by a government appointed planning inspector.
What I can't understand is why I am amazed that so much nonsense has been posted about publicly available information and would like to know if anyone knows what can be done about it.
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #228 on: March 19, 2014, 06:14:35 pm »
Hi motherchuck

I think it is natural on a forum devoted to local issues that people will comment and discuss any issues of local interest. I am not aware however of anything that has been posted that is against our forum guidelines. If you have any specific concerns, please IM me directly and myself and the moderating team will look into it.

I am glad to hear that you have got a new road cleaning vehicle coming tomorrow - cycling up there the last couple of days has proved interesting!

Thanks

James (Editor)
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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #229 on: March 20, 2014, 07:30:52 am »
Motherchuck, you wrote:

What I can't understand is why I am amazed that so much nonsense has been posted about publicly available information and would like to know if anyone knows what can be done about it.

I think it’s perfectly understandable for people to ask questions about what appears to be a massive investment in time, effort and money to “solve” what you describe as “water logging problems at the field.” And people will probably wonder what crop could possibly begin to create the financial return to pay that back. I do.

There will also be those to whom this work came as a bit of a shock. You list those who were notified and did or did not respond.

Welwyn Hatfield Council did not object to the application they supported it.
Local Councillor Bill Storey informed the planning committee that he knew the site well and confirmed the waterlogging problem.
The parish council did object to the proposals even though they had not visited the site. When invited for a site visit it was declined.
Likewise the Green Belt Society also declined an invitation to visit the site.
Letters were sent to 16 local residents to the site by Herts CC to comment and not one objected.
The application details were attached to the field gate for a month for any interested party to respond but no comments made.
Details of the appeal were attached to the field gate for a month for any interested party to respond but no comments made.

However, I did not know about or attend the WHC planning committee, I am not on the parish council and I wasn't sent any information about this from that source. I am not in the local green belt society, and nor am I one of the 16 local residents who you say were notified.

As for details being attached to the field gate, you will know that the spot is on a blind bend, and there are no footpaths passing directly past the gate, so despite being a regular walker in the area, I didn’t see those notices, either.

Which means that those of us who are in the dark turn to our local forum to try to find out what is going on.
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Offline epiphany

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #230 on: March 20, 2014, 08:39:36 am »

I think it’s perfectly understandable for people to ask questions about what appears to be a massive investment in time, effort and money to “solve” what you describe as “water logging problems at the field.” And people will probably wonder what crop could possibly begin to create the financial return to pay that back. I do.



This is only a theory and IMHO but it is possible that Friday Grove is in fact a giant land fill site with income being generated per lorry load.


My thoughts are...........

Year 1 - Mobile poultry arks

Year 2 - Static poultry buildings

Year 3 - Erection of domestic residence to support agricultural business.

Year 5 - Collapse of poultry business, change of use of residence from agricultural to domestic.

Year 6 - Precedent now set for additional development.

I hope I am proved wrong.


I notice that Councillor Bill Storey was wheeled out for his opinion - I assume this is the same Bill Storey who appears to be quite happy to build the New Barnfield incinerator on green belt land.
 

Offline Trent

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #231 on: March 20, 2014, 10:55:49 am »
Road cleaning vehicle at 8.30 this morning appeared to be putting water down on a 20m stretch. At 10 MPH (I had to stop for the cleaning vehicle) my car skidded on the surface. It was like driving on ice and is so dangerous. I fear there will be a horrendous accident.
 

Offline hilarycarlen

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #232 on: March 20, 2014, 07:25:30 pm »
Epiphany - I have a simpler theory.

The putative "farm shop" being  (don't we already have one of those just next door at Geoff's farm?) is a Trojan Horse for one of those big "country store" developments, with shops selling a) horsey tack and overpriced "country" clothes b) posh sweets in "ye olde country jars" c)Aga's etc.

Year one: market style stall
Year two: permanent little shop
Year three: big commercial venture and lots of lovely parking on the (goodness me! nice and solid!) hard standing behind.

Hey ho!
 

Offline Ferdie

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #233 on: March 20, 2014, 07:42:52 pm »
As David has said people use the Forum to find out information. I haven't used that road for several weeks and was wondering what the fuss was about. Not sure how bad it has been, but this evening I had cause to drive that way. The road surface was covered in caked on & compacted mud. Not good. Sadly, that stretch of road did have a fatality on it in 2006 when a young lads' life was cut short in an accident there. I trust the owners of the land being worked on ensure that the road is properly cleaned and such a tragedy is not repeated.

It is an offence under the Highway Act to deposit mud/debris on the road. An offender can be prosecuted by either the police or by the Highway Authority.

The Act also makes the person responsible for causing mud and debris to be spread on a road, to provide warning signs and clean any debris up. Warning signs should be triangular 'Slippery Road' signs. There are signs to this effect on the verge in both directions. However, the way my car was bumping along over the road, there clearly was a lot of debris still there this evening.

Under Highways Act 1980, Herts Highways have a duty to clean the road and power to recover the costs from the persons responsible.
 

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #234 on: March 21, 2014, 06:24:40 am »
The parish council did object to the proposals even though they had not visited the site. When invited for a site visit it was declined.
Likewise the Green Belt Society also declined an invitation to visit the site.

Three questions:

1) If the information, posted in this thread above is correct - and the North Mymms Parish Council and the local green belt society objected to this proposal - what was the basis of their concern and why were they against work which, we are told, is merely to deal with a waterlogged field?
2) Why did they decline an invitation to visit the site?
3) And, if they did object, how loud did they make their voice heard in this community? Did they post in this forum expressing their concern and setting out what they were objecting to? Were there any other community-wide information campaigns?

Could anyone from the parish council or green belt society throw answer the questions above, please?

David
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Offline James Bentall

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #235 on: March 21, 2014, 07:16:34 am »
David

The basis for the objections can be found in the PDF you attached on earlier in the thread. In summary...

North Mymms Parish Council:
Quote
The proposal would be an inappropriate alteration to Green Belt land where agricultural use has not been evident and it is questionable whether or not this proposal would improve drainage.

Green Belt Society:
Quote
!We would bring to your attention the comments made in our letter dated 3 January 2012 where we stated the following:

“Having consulted a civil engineer on this subject, we would like answers to the following questions:

What will be the consequences to the surrounding land and are there any other drainage systems being proposed? The normal method would be for porous clay pipes to be buried in the field with a filter media to a suitable outfall.

We know from a member of the Society who has in the past kept horses at Raybrook Farm further down the hill from Friday Grove of flooding problems. Will this proposal make this situation worse?”

We note in the new submission there are no satisfactory answers to the drainage problems, the result of which could have an adverse effect on this agricultural piece of land. In view of this there could also be considerable harm inflicted on this area of Green Belt. We are also concerned that 50% of this work has already been carried out without approval.

The Parish Council receives 100s of planning applications each year, and it would be impractical to do a site visit for every single one. Besides which, a huge amount of information (technical drawings, photos, plans, reports etc) is submitted with each planning application which allows councillors to make an informed decision. Information about all planning decisions made by the Parish Council can be found on the website, or members of the public or press are welcome to attend any of the planning meetings held throughout the year.  Planning meetings are held every 2-3 weeks as advertised on the website and on the noticeboards throughout the parish. The next one is Wed 26th March starting at 8:30pm at the Council Office (off Bushwood Close in Welham Green)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 07:35:04 am by James Bentall »
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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #236 on: March 21, 2014, 08:35:15 am »
Thanks James,

Did the parish council and the green belt society have a say during the appeal process, or doesn't it work like that?

Planning permission was granted on appeal at Friday Grove Farm for “import of 2900 cbm of inert soil for agricultural upgrade to level an area of depression in the field that is seasonally waterlogged”.  Hertfordshire County Council is responsible for enforcement of ‘waste’ and the Principal Planning Officer, Rob Egan, is aware of the activity and visited the site last week on Friday.
 
Note: the Parish Council and Welwyn Hatfield Borough Council objected to the planning application and it was refused by Hertfordshire County Council but planning permission was granted on appeal by the Planning Inspector (Appeal Reference APP/M1900/A/13/2200249).

Also, as well as the forms of communications you listed in your post.

Information about all planning decisions made by the Parish Council can be found on the website, or members of the public or press are welcome to attend any of the planning meetings held throughout the year.  Planning meetings are held every 2-3 weeks as advertised on the website and on the noticeboards throughout the parish.

Could the parish council not make more use of forums like this and social media to get the word around? I am sure the noticeboard is great, and the NMPC website is too, but in terms of making as many people as possible aware of planning issues it might be good for the parish council to use forums like this along with Twitter and Facebook, perhaps?
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Offline Ejjmsn

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #237 on: March 21, 2014, 09:56:05 am »
Just to add to this, been having to sit behind these every day so far.
Apart from ruining the roads  there is a 3 ton bridge at the end of it.
Don't think he is carrying a 3 ton load either!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 09:58:39 am by James Bentall »
 

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #238 on: March 21, 2014, 04:47:26 pm »

Did the parish council and the green belt society have a say during the appeal process, or doesn't it work like that?


As objectors to the original Planning Application, it would have been usual for the Parish Council and Green Belt Society to have been advised of the Appeal and offered the opportunity to submit further (new) evidence to the Inspector.  All previous correspondence/objections would have been submitted to the Planning Inspectorate by Hertfordshire County Council.

All the documents that would have been submitted can be accessed from https://cloud1.atriumsoft.com/HCCePlanningOPS/searchPageLoad.do
– type Friday Grove Farm in the Keyword(s) search box. 

Application PL\0396\11 (6/2677-11) is the original Planning Application, refused by HCC, and PL\0451\12 (6/01859-12) is the Appeal documents, including “Plng Inspect Friday Grove Farm 19.8.13.pdf” which is the response from the Parish Council. 

The Appeal case can be viewed at http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/ViewCase.asp?caseid=2200249&coid=4257

There is a link to the Decision document at the foot of the page.

At paragraph 15 of the Decision document the Inspector states, “I am conscious that there are a number of objections from third parties which are centred on alleged conflict with Green Belt policy but also include concerns regarding the potential for flooding elsewhere and, bearing in mind the planning history of the site, the fear that the levelling of the depression could be a precursor to other forms of development. However, there is no evidence to suggest that the minor landraising proposed would create drainage problems elsewhere, the physical circumstances of the site do not suggest that to be a probability, and most other forms of development would require specific planning permission in any event.”
 

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Re: Hawkshead Road Car Boot Sale Field
« Reply #239 on: March 21, 2014, 07:04:52 pm »
Thanks Ex Libris, that's really helpful. Glad you know your way around these things.

But I am still concerned that the report you point to refers to the work as a 'minor landraising proposal' (taken from your post and shortened), and seems to assume that the planning process would, in future, protect what we have been encouraged to believe is a waterlogged field issue from becoming a development issue.

At paragraph 15 of the Decision document the Inspector states, “... However, there is no evidence to suggest that the minor landraising proposed would create drainage problems elsewhere, the physical circumstances of the site do not suggest that to be a probability, and most other forms of development would require specific planning permission in any event.”
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