Poll

Should the new crossing be upgraded to a proper controlled crossing?

Yes
19 (82.6%)
No
4 (17.4%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?  (Read 11169 times)

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Offline RMP

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The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« on: September 10, 2012, 11:54:32 pm »

This poll is concerning the new crossing, not whether you think there should be a crossing or not.

It seems to me that the new crossing has not been very well thought out.  There are no signs informing drivers it is there and there is no compulsion for drivers to stop.  All it will do is give pedestrians a false sense of security when crossing the road.

The council do not plan to do anything more than they have done so far.  Please vote as to whether you think the crossing would be better as a controlled crossing (Zebra, Pelican etc.) or left as-is.
 

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 07:20:58 am »
Hi Richard,

Good idea creating a new poll specific to the recent changes in Bradmore Green.

David
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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 08:19:13 am »
Update: I have locked the old thread so that the discussion can continue here. For those wanting context for the debate you can visit the old thread and read all 130 contributions going back to 2004.
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Offline mannyd

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 11:09:50 am »
As someone who walks to school 3 times a day (9am, 12, and 3.15) - I have yet to see ANYONE use the new crossing. It was placed in entirely the wrong place. People either cross further up by the church, or (as we do) from exiting the alley (Westland/Oaklands). The crossing is absolutely bizarre - you end up in the village 'island' with very few drop kerbs to get you to the outskirts (so to speak) - as my husband is in a wheelchair this is useless. I thought the idea of a crossing was great - the execution has been abysmal - I'm not sure who made the decision on placement, or who they consulted (certainly not the people who cross the road, or thos who SHOULD have benefitted)
 

Offline Aidan Winwood

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 02:34:25 pm »
The local Neighbourhood Watch have questioned this already, apparently they would have had to remove all the parking bays opposite the bus stop to put a controlled crossing in.

Personally I think a zebra crossing would have been a great way to control traffic, since it doesn't have an annoying beeping associated with it - selfishly since I live nearby and a beeping pelican crossing would drive me insane...

A
 

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 06:10:06 pm »
A zebra crossing may have been some use, but what they've done is useless. Complete waste of money.
 

Offline Aidan Winwood

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 09:00:09 pm »
agreed John.

Will try to dig out the reply the NHW had from the Highways Agency.

Aidan
 

Offline Bedlam

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 10:26:35 pm »
A zebra crossing may have been some use, but what they've done is useless. Complete waste of money.

Agreed.
 

Offline RMP

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 01:15:17 am »
I have already queried the upgrade with the council.  They tell me that the location does not conform to various parameters and that a controlled crossing would require the removal of all the parking bays opposite the shops and moving the bus stop, although I can’t see why comparing the road with Darkes Lane in Potters Bar.  Furthermore, they state that the “visibility requirements” for a controlled crossing are not met at the current location, and that because of this a controlled crossing would be a safety hazard.

This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.  The current situation is a “safety hazard” so how would upgrading it make it any worse?  Putting some signs up to state “crossing ahead” could in no what whatsoever be a safety hazard.  And if a few parking spaces have to be sacrificed, is that such a big issue?  Maybe I’m preaching to the converted but I cannot for the life of me see any rational argument as to why this should not be a controlled crossing.

The poll is already showing 100% in favour.  Hopefully soon we will have some more votes, and I shall ask the council to reconsider in light of this.
 

Offline saffie

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 06:59:48 am »
I would like the councellors to come down to the village at 8:30 in the morning and again at 3:15 to see the dangers parents face trying to get their children safely across the road.

Maybe they would like to play chicken with speeding commuters who refuse to slow down as you try to cross with children.

If Welham Green has been given speed bumps and a crossing why haven't we, are we less important, do our children not matter as much????

Thanks Welwyn and Hatfield, you are useless.
 

Offline Aidan Winwood

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 04:03:37 pm »
Hi All,

As part of the local NHW committee, here is the inital email and reply that was sent out by BP&LH NHW and replied to by Herts Highways, all anonomised of course:



BP&LH NHW email:

On behalf of the NW scheme in Brookmans Park I would like to register another protest about the inadequate road markings by the green.
We are aware that time and money have been spent (1 week) to raise the kerb by a bus stop and drop the opposite kerbs nearby (similar to other junction corner crossings round the green)  to encourage pedestrians to use that as a crossing place. 
We have to question the Herts. Highways' policy on pedestrian safety.
Nowhere on that road is there an indication to drivers that a crossing place has been installed.   A rolling programme of alterations may well be in place, but we also question judgements which could have been made many years ago.
The zebra crossing in Welham Green and other road safety installations have only been made because a child was killed crossing Dixons Hill Road some years ago.   Parents are currently being encouraged to allow their children to walk to school - and older children should certainly be able to manage by themselves - but few parents would do so at the moment.  In Brookmans Park those  residents living to the west of Bluebridge Road are effectively written out of road safety by the lack of markings to encourage driver awareness along a main bus route.
We would be grateful if you would pursue this case.


Brookmans Park & Little Heath
Crime Prevention Group

Herts highways response:

> Dear Sir,
>
> In response to the points you have raised we can comment as follows:
>
> The proposals for the uncontrolled crossing were identified following a
> number of site surveys where pedestrian’s volumes were measured and the
> desire line identified. Our original proposals showed the uncontrolled
> crossing to the west of the existing location, however following the
> public consultation and comments received it was agreed to install the
> crossing in the location as built on site.
>
> The regulations regarding the implementation of controlled crossings
> (i.e. zebras, puffin, pelican, toucan etc) are specific and due to the
> layout and geometry of the road it was not possible to implement a
> controlled type crossing without removing the entire parking bay
> opposite the shops and removing the bus stop from its current location.
> It was agreed that the uncontrolled crossing would be the best option
> given the constraints of the area.
>
> Unfortunately with all schemes we undertake on the highway there is
> inconvenience caused to the public. Due to narrow width of the road and
> to safe guard the operatives it was necessary to temporary close
> Bluebridge Road to undertake a number of the operations especially the
> road markings. We apologise for any inconvenience caused as a result of
> the works.
>
> With regards to the bus shelter works as you have noted we have
> upgraded the bus stop to comply with the disability discrimination act
> with the installation of easy access kerbing. To install the kerbs we
> needed to move the shelter and with the agreement of the Bus Stop
> Infrastructure Team the existing shelter was relocated to the back of
> the footpath, to ensure better visibility of the uncontrolled crossing.
>
> Regards
> Herts Highways
 

Offline mannyd

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 10:49:42 pm »
I'm still lost as to who they consulted regarding placement.... surely the school should have been involved at some point?? I walk to school EVERY day (whatever the weather - so last year would have been crossing the road a minimum of 30 times a week) and I never saw anyone monitoring volumes of people.... or maybe I was too busy trying NOT to get run over
 

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 11:27:18 pm »
They sent a planning form to local residents (line of sight basis I suspect).  I questioned most of the issues raised here at the time and suggested a zebra crossing, got a response but one that basically said, 'sorry, no can do'.

Will try to dig out the letter that I received from the planning officer.

Aidan
 

Offline RMP

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 12:31:33 am »
Hi All

Since not all BP residents may know about this forum, or have access to it (elderly people for example) I am wondering about setting up a written petition.  This could be in one shop (the library for instance) and notices put in other shops to tell people about it and where to go to sign.  I am not sure the library would agree (maybe as a council department they would prefer to remain neutral) but will ask.

Any thoughts or ideas?  Would anyone be prepared to help out?  Please PM if so.
 

Offline Angel

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 01:06:34 am »
I think that's a good idea and I think that the chemist would be a good place to ask to have it.
 

Offline RMP

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2012, 01:46:36 am »
Thanks Angel, that's a good idea, I will investigate.

I also note two people have voted against, but they have not said why so? 
 

Offline GGDT

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 11:54:51 am »
Thanks Angel, that's a good idea, I will investigate.

I also note two people have voted against, but they have not said why so?

That would be me  :-[

I've read this and the original thread on the subject and honestly think it's all a bit over the top.

As a driver myself I can't see how anyone can travel along the part of Bluebridge Road being talked about (from the URC to the station) at anything approaching a dangerous speed.

If coming from Little Heath direction you have to slow down at the brow of the hill by the URC and again for the bend by The Brookmans.

Anyone coming from Welham Green direction would be coming down the hill from the bridge slowly having just negotiated the corner and then having to slow again for the bend by The Brookmans.

The actual stretch of road where they've dropped the kerb cannot be negotiated that fast unless you accelerate and then brake sharply 30 yards later, how many people drive like that?

I've seen several posts saying the road it busy at 8:30am, 12pm, 3pm etc. Granted I don't often see it at those times as I'm at work but whenever I pass through the village during the week and at weekends it's never so busy that you have to wait for ages to cross safely. This suggests that the majority of the traffic problems are caused by people on the school run, maybe those with children who are finding crossing the road a problem could have a word with the other parents and suggest they leave the car at home  - problem solved.

As for the suggestions of crossings on other roads on the village green - why? The only main road is Bluebridge and 90% of the time it's not that busy. I'm sorry but to suggest crossing any part of Bradmore Green is dangerous is nonsense in my opinion. The traffic doesn't move round it at any more than 15mph and visibility is good wherever you cross.

If we absolutely must have a crossing the only sensible place to put it is between the off license and The Brookmans, that will benefit shoppers, commuters and parents alike and is where lots of people cross already anyway.

There is no need for anything else in the village IMO

 

Offline mannyd

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2012, 06:44:02 pm »
GGDT

I challenge you to take my wheelchair-bound husband at 3pm - cross Bluebridge Road and collect the children at 3.15. While you're there you could 'challenge' the other parents about leaving the car at home (which will win you no friends, many enemies, and no change to the traffic problem).

Then you could cross again - wheelchair husband, 5yr old and 8 yr old (with scooters, and possibly an additional friend) - perhaps then you could be a better judge as to how safe the village is
 

Offline GGDT

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 07:46:10 pm »
GGDT

I challenge you to take my wheelchair-bound husband at 3pm - cross Bluebridge Road and collect the children at 3.15. While you're there you could 'challenge' the other parents about leaving the car at home (which will win you no friends, many enemies, and no change to the traffic problem).

Then you could cross again - wheelchair husband, 5yr old and 8 yr old (with scooters, and possibly an additional friend) - perhaps then you could be a better judge as to how safe the village is

Whoooaa, not looking to start an argument here.

I know all about crossing roads with people in wheelchairs, my Mum was in one for many years when we lived in BP. The biggest problem was getting it up and down the kerb rather than the traffic but I'll concede there was probably less traffic then.

As it goes I was in BP at 3:15pm this afternoon again at 3:45pm and finally at 4:20pm. What I saw was this:-

3:15pm

Nowhere to park due to every space being taken and a lorry delivering to the Co-op

Cars parked all along the yellow lines opposite Windsors, lots of school children about, lots of traffic coming away from BP primary school, Bluebridge Road relatively quiet.

3:45pm

I came back as I needed to go to the chemist but couldn't park earlier. Lots of parking places, Bluebridge Road quiet, not many kids or cars about.

4:15pm

Woman in a 4 x 4 stopped abruptly and without looking in her mirrors, on the yellow lines opposite the fishmongers to pick her son up (he had to cross Bluebridge Road to get in her car so why he couldn't have walked 50 yards to the URC to be picked up off the main road is a mystery?

Long wait in traffic at the bus stop as Bradmore Green gridlocked with other cars all picking up kids who'd got off a school coach. As a result no-one on Bluebridge Road could turn right into Brookmans Ave / Bradmore Way. The Brookmans car park also completely full of 4 x 4's picking up kids of said buses.

So the two times above when the village was the most busy were when there were loads of parents picking kids up. Two ways to solve this:

1. Parents walk their kids to school (like you do)
2. The coaches that take kids to out of town schools drop off somewhere else, I'd suggest Chancellors as by the time most of these coaches arrive back in BP Chancellors will be empty school having finished an hour earlier.

I see your point about the busy times but putting in a crossing will affect the village all the time rather than just the two windows when it's really busy around the school run.

The problems at those times could be solved by the council just providing a lollipop lady twice a day at minimal cost. They still exist, there's one in Colney Heath for example.
 

Offline saffie

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2012, 07:51:26 pm »
I take your point GGDT, but can I suggest you actually try crossing with 2 small children, rather than just watching.

All the cars seem to speed up to go round the bend, I cross everyday and have done for the last 4 years and I can tell you it is very dangerous.

Unfortunately I believe that nothing will be done until a child is seriously injured or killed, then we will probably have a zebra crossing placed next to a bunch of flowers tied to a lamppost.
 

Offline Bedlam

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2012, 08:14:06 pm »
GGDT

I challenge you to take my wheelchair-bound husband at 3pm - cross Bluebridge Road and collect the children at 3.15. While you're there you could 'challenge' the other parents about leaving the car at home (which will win you no friends, many enemies, and no change to the traffic problem).

Then you could cross again - wheelchair husband, 5yr old and 8 yr old (with scooters, and possibly an additional friend) - perhaps then you could be a better judge as to how safe the village is

+1
 

Offline Bedlam

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 08:15:32 pm »
Unfortunately I believe that nothing will be done until a child is seriously injured or killed, then we will probably have a zebra crossing placed next to a bunch of flowers tied to a lamppost.

Agreed.
 

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 08:24:10 pm »
As a driver myself I can't see how anyone can travel along the part of Bluebridge Road being talked about (from the URC to the station) at anything approaching a dangerous speed.

But they do, and that's the problem. 
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Offline Bedlam

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2012, 08:59:03 pm »
As a driver myself I can't see how anyone can travel along the part of Bluebridge Road being talked about (from the URC to the station) at anything approaching a dangerous speed.

But they do, and that's the problem.

'As a driver myself' ???

IMO you're not much of a driver (or one fit to comment) if you think that a car cannot accelerate from 30mph to 80+mph in that distance.
 

Offline mannyd

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2012, 09:56:10 pm »

I see your point about the busy times but putting in a crossing will affect the village all the time rather than just the two windows when it's really busy around the school run.

The problems at those times could be solved by the council just providing a lollipop lady twice a day at minimal cost. They still exist, there's one in Colney Heath for example.

How would a decent crossing affect the village?? Other than forcing people to abide by the speed limit??

When we did the school circus thing last week, we crossed the road at 5pm, and to be honest I'm sure every other car was speeding. I pushed my husband across - his foot slipped off the plate and jammed under the chair - and my 8 year old had to stand in the road with his hands in the air to stop the traffic (was very proud of him for saving me and his dad - but he wouldn't have to if we had a crossing).

These were cars going straight through the village to Potters Bar - nothing to do with school. I do wish everyone would stop blaming the entire traffic issue on the schools - you only need ONE idiot to make it a dangerous place.

Note: Edited to fix quote box.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:21:31 pm by Bob »
 

Offline GGDT

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2012, 10:55:20 pm »
I take your point GGDT, but can I suggest you actually try crossing with 2 small children, rather than just watching.

All the cars seem to speed up to go round the bend, I cross everyday and have done for the last 4 years and I can tell you it is very dangerous.

Unfortunately I believe that nothing will be done until a child is seriously injured or killed, then we will probably have a zebra crossing placed next to a bunch of flowers tied to a lamppost.

Fair point Saffie, I don't have small children so obviously never have to cross the road with them.

I find it astounding that anyone would accelerate round that bend only to have to slow down again to cross the bridge.

Then again you can't legislate for bad drivers.
 

Offline GGDT

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2012, 10:57:17 pm »
As a driver myself I can't see how anyone can travel along the part of Bluebridge Road being talked about (from the URC to the station) at anything approaching a dangerous speed.

But they do, and that's the problem.

In that case they will still travel at a dangerous speed regardless of whether there is a crossing there or not.

The only thing that will slow them down is a camera or a speed hump.

 

Offline GGDT

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2012, 11:12:32 pm »
As a driver myself I can't see how anyone can travel along the part of Bluebridge Road being talked about (from the URC to the station) at anything approaching a dangerous speed.

But they do, and that's the problem.

'As a driver myself' ???

IMO you're not much of a driver (or one fit to comment) if you think that a car cannot accelerate from 30mph to 80+mph in that distance.

Not sure why you feel the need to be deliberately rude and antagonistic.

You don't know me, or how I drive yet you seem to have decided that I am a poor driver and not fit to comment simply because my opinion differs from yours?

I thought the whole point of this forum was that everyone can express their views in a civil manner?

Obviously some cars, and we're only really talking high powered cars here, are capable of accelerating from 30mph to 80mph+ in a short space of time (I drive an Audi A3 1.8T sport and that certainly isn't capable of the speed of acceleration you speak of).

My point is though why would anyone accelerate that hard along that particular piece of road? They'd only have to stand on their brakes again to get round the bend by The Brookmans.

As I've already said you can't legislate for idiots and some will go too fast but if they were travelling at the speed you suggest then it's doubtful they would be able to stop in time for a crossing even if there was one.

A camera between the URC and the bus stop would be a greater deterrent IMO.
 

Offline GGDT

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2012, 11:26:59 pm »

I see your point about the busy times but putting in a crossing will affect the village all the time rather than just the two windows when it's really busy around the school run.

The problems at those times could be solved by the council just providing a lollipop lady twice a day at minimal cost. They still exist, there's one in Colney Heath for example.

How would a decent crossing affect the village?? Other than forcing people to abide by the speed limit??

When we did the school circus thing last week, we crossed the road at 5pm, and to be honest I'm sure every other car was speeding. I pushed my husband across - his foot slipped off the plate and jammed under the chair - and my 8 year old had to stand in the road with his hands in the air to stop the traffic (was very proud of him for saving me and his dad - but he wouldn't have to if we had a crossing).

These were cars going straight through the village to Potters Bar - nothing to do with school. I do wish everyone would stop blaming the entire traffic issue on the schools - you only need ONE idiot to make it a dangerous place.

Note: Edited to fix quote box.

A crossing would affect the village by causing another bottleneck at busy times.

Maybe the council need to do a traffic survey to check the volume of traffic along Bluebridge Road?

Personally if I lived North of BP and was going to Potters Bar I'd go along the A1000. Other than people who live in the South of Welham Green why else would through traffic need to go via Bluebridge Road? Even those coming from Colney Heath  would be quicker going along Swanland Road and up Hawkshead Lane or Warrengate.

We're talking about drivers in a hurry here, surely they'd therefore use the quickest route and that is not through the village.

I'm not blaming speeding traffic on the schools but it is undeniable that there is far more traffic about in the village during the school run. That means it takes longer to cross Bluebridge Road at those times regardless of how fast the traffic is going.

You are correct that it only takes one idiot to make it dangerous but if you apply that logic then every road is dangerous so where do you draw the line? We can't put crossings everywhere just in case the one idiot turns up.

 

Offline Peeplins

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Re: The new crossing - should it be upgraded?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2012, 12:33:14 am »
Whilst not necessarily in favour of a controlled crossing have witnessed cars accelerating as they go round the bend (in both directions) at various times of day.

Have also witnessed inconsiderate driving behaviours from both through traffic and school drop off / pick up drivers !!!  Everyone is always in a RUSH RUSH RUSH !!

IMO the majority of the traffic around at school drop off / pick up is school related ~ so parents in cars - PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE take time to consider not only your fellow pedestrian parents, but also all pedestrians in the Village
 

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