Author Topic: Vandalism  (Read 8536 times)

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Buster

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Vandalism
« on: April 05, 2004, 02:08:39 pm »
I see the mindless vandals were at work last night. Both the dry cleaners and the ticket office at the station had their windows smashed.  Why?
 

oatmeal

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2004, 07:11:46 pm »
what is going on in BP?, its not like things like that are silent activities, doesnt anyone have an idea of who is responsible?
 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2004, 12:41:02 pm »
I am afraid that this type of activity will increase rather than decrease.
Until society shuns and punishes lawbreakers rather than worship them as some sort of heroes as is prevelant in the general media, then crime will proliferate.
The police catch many habitual criminals only to see them released on bail and given "help".
It will need a decent government to have the courage to back the people and fill the jails.
Things like speed cameras and dustbin fines turn the law abiding public against authourity and this in turn allows an acceptance of degrees of bad behaviour.
We have £1ms spent on flood defence locally, think how much could have been saved and how much quicker it could have been achieved using an old fashioned chain gang.
As for expensive tagging why not go back to manacles, no problem slowing crooks down that way, they can shuffle around at home and their predicament would be visible to all when in public.
Harsh I hear the wooly minded Liberals whisper. Not really just cost effective and practical.
regards,
jet
 

AgentOrange

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2004, 03:24:39 pm »
I think the answer must lie with us all. If the police are to kept locked up in patrol cars or completing vast amounts of paperwork, then we need an alternative that has proven to be effective elsewhere.
What we need are either a couple of Community Support Officers as used in London (cheap quasi police but there we go) to patrol the village.
They could sort out the parking (see elsewhere), the antisocial behaviour and the vandalism. Not by catching the low lifes that do it, but by preventing it happening in the first place. If we are to keep the aspects of BP that we all treasure and even reduce some of the less pleasant aspects, how about it?
 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2004, 07:47:04 pm »
I think the result would either be a game of dodge the community officers or worse still attack the community officers.
Until there are real penalties like hanging and flogging these low lives will proliferate like the microbes they are.
regards,
jet
 

Offline Oly

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2004, 07:49:37 pm »
Why dont we just round up all these vandals and deport them to another country, like bosnia or something-that would be funny. It would save police time-thats if they can be bothered to get their act together. Also did anyone hear two cars racing each other in brookmans avenue about 10:50 last night
 

Offline Oly

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2004, 07:51:53 pm »
Quote
what is going on in BP?, its not like things like that are silent activities, doesnt anyone have an idea of who is responsible?


I reckon we should find out who it is and name and shame them-splater their pictures on front of the welwyn hatfield times!!! what will mummy and daddy think then?
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2004, 08:16:15 pm »
Depending on who they are, Mummy and Daddy:

(a) Either one or both is not around, so couldn't care less
(b) Knows the sort of things their children are up to, but couldn't care less
(c) Doesn't know what their children are up to, but when informed, say that it couldn't possibly be their own little darling's fault, they must have been led on by somebody else.

Sorry, I'm getting all cynical again....
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2004, 08:54:29 pm »
Dear James,
You are not being cynical, you are just being courageous enough to tell the truth, something which has been made unfashoinable in the last decade.
The eu and its human rights acts, rather than human wrong acts, has paved the way for this type of free expression.
All these new so called laws have been applied for the benifit of the lawyers who wrote them.
We had the laws available to dissuade or deal with bad behaviour but these were washed away with the flood tide of eu directives. They were replaced as the tide ebbed with flotsam and debris from Brussels. As usual on the ebb the trash is all that remains.
Well the population, all 15-25 % of them that voted for any of the recent governments are the ones that have had their way. They have sanctioned Murder, theft and bad behaviour while presiding over the degradation of our traditional society. We are left with the human suffering caused by all forms of crime as our inheritance.
The way forward is for all good people to lobby their representatives to do the peoples bidding, not the other way around.
As ye reap so shall ye sow, strike that reverse it!
regards,
jet
 

AgentOrange

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2004, 01:38:40 am »
Meldrew moment! I cannot believe for a second that the EU can be held in anyway responsible for vandalism! Its about personal responsibility and accountability. If the EU is as weak and useless as you suggest in other threads they cannot be effective enough to be held responsible for vandalism in BP! You cannot have it both ways.

I think it was John Stewart Mill who wrote that 'You cannot have liberty without responsibility'. Most UK legislation is concerned with the abrogation of responsibilities by individuals in either a civil or criminal context. This has a long history and starts with the Magna Carta (1215 I think). The same is true of Europe, except their legislation is codified rather than built on the previous case as in the UK. To blame it all on 1 act that only became law in the UK in 2002 (I think) is a very poor argument jet.

The problem is much deeper and complex than the Daily Mail would have you believe. It lies with the fragmentation of long standing communities (how many of us know all our neighbours?) and the social enforcement of acceptable behaviour rather than its legal enforcement. As the social fragmentation of communities has increased (commuting, people moving out of the area) so the social enforcement of the law has disappeared. No more clip around the ear and a report to the parents by the local shop keeper. We expect the state to be able to deal with this instead, but guess what, it can't.

We all misbehaved as kids - maybe not kicking in windows, but there we are. But our parents found out what we were up to and we were dealt with accordingly. The absence of parents is a problem for most kids. If they are too busy working to put a roof over heads, pay for nice holidays and the commute from BP to Mount Grace (Oops, a dig there!) or further afield then parental control is lost. Mine were there by and large and boy I did not get away with much, if anything!

In terms of a solution given that I can't change society and the way we work and live. It lies with either Community Support Officers or CCTV. Well, BP. what do you want?
Better luck next time jet!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2004, 01:41:04 am by AgentOrange »
 

Offline trinity

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2004, 02:36:01 am »
Quote
We expect the state to be able to deal with this instead, but guess what, it can't.


I'm not sure this is correct. "We" by-and-large don't "expect the state" to do all that much, except make demands on our wallets, have MPs vote themselves progressively larger salaries, and play daft games with our liberties in places like Brussells.

We are, however, in a system which increasingly prohibits the citizenry from helping themselves. In clip-round-the-ear times, such action wasn't prohibited and that being so, the state wasn't "expected" to do much. Whether it was all that effective or not isn't the point. Today, a clip-round-the-ear is actively forbidden (and it matters not at all whether by explicit statute, or by society's failure to curb hungry lawyers).

The result is that people get insular. They don't turn a blind eye so much as thank their luck that it is someone elses' property that is being wrecked, someone else being gunned down, stabbed, or beaten up. They bemoan the state of the modern world, since those with the vested interest in keeping people believing they're weak - the politicians and the civil action lawyers - tell them that the alternative is a Gestapo-like police state or thugs wandering the streets with bigger weapons than they have.

I really don't buy this. I don't see how a group of concerned citizenry, catching and kicking the crap out of a bunch of vandals, can do anything other than good. Nor do I see why this should of necessity result in any Stepford-like dictatorship by social consensus.

 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2004, 02:51:59 pm »
The eu is completely responsible for the increase in vandalism over the last few decades.
It has enforced directives which prevent law abiding citizens from treating wrongdoers as they deserve.
In former times law breakers were outlaws and did not receive the protection that laws provide. Now the laws seem more to the benifit of miscreants than to the protection of honest folk.
For instance rightly or wrongly our police and judiciary were trusted and could use their discretion to deal with criminals as they saw fit. Now they have to follow statuatory procedure and if they make one tiny error then the criminal goes free due to a technicality.
There is no justice any more, any wonder no one has any faith in the system.
We have enacted laws over the last 15 years which should give more protection to the more vulnerable in our society, ie children, women and the elderly. The result of these peices of paper is more violence towards these vulnerable groups than ever, with more of societies undesirables going free or released on bail for reports etc so that they can go ahead and carry on with their nefarious ways.
The result will be anarchy by the people who will gang together in vigilanty groups to deal with those who have no respect for the peace and rights of others.
If we do not stand up and be counted then society will degrade further into oblivion and a free for all will ensue.
regards,
jet
 

John_fraser

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2004, 04:59:18 pm »
First of all, A little history lesson: The European Union was established on 1st November 1993, when the Treaty of Maastricht – AKA the Treaty on European Union – was ratified by the 12 members of the then European Community. Therefore the EU can only have been responsible for anything since that time and not “the decades” you claim.

Secondly, would you please point out one law enforced on the United Kingdom by the EU that “prevents law abiding citizens from treating wrongdoers as they deserve.” I am sure at this point that someone will point out the restriction on the capital punishment detailed in “The European Convention on Human Rights,” but this does not count as The UK parliament abolished capital punishment prior to joining the EEC, they were not going to reintroduce it under any circumstances, the European Convention on Human Rights was signed voluntarily by the government and in any case was “created” by The Council of Europe and not The European Union.

Police have always had to follow “statutory procedures” and this is as desirable now as it was in the mythical Golden Age you look back upon. Those procedures are for the protection of the innocent i.e. you and I. “Tiny errors” do not result in criminals going free. The reason criminals escape is either down to sheer incompetence or the police not following the rules and beating confessions out of six Irish men on a train. Examples like that meant that the killers of Carl Bridgewater and the bombers of Guilford and Birmingham walked free.

I have to agree with AO. The reason for petty vandalism is the breakdown of the community. We don’t know our neighbors and we don’t care about them. Rather then get involved in trouble for the sake of an person we’ve never known, we look the other way and hope someone else will get involved. And the reason for the breakdown of the community is the trend to drive everywhere, to shop in out of town mega stores and not to live near work. As a result, we never meet out neighbors.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2004, 07:51:49 pm »
Its all very well to play with words and perhaps I should be more carefull with the words I use. For eu read European influence.
Without wishing to be too patronising, younger people ie those a decade younger than the writer have no first hand knowledge of so called Golden years and cannot imagine this country in the 50-60s prior to Grocer Heaths sell out
The breakdown in discipline and standards amongst children started with comprehensive education, which was one of the first communist style ideals, designed to equalise everyone. It failed and is still failing now. Bullying and  plain bad behaviour have never been worse and teachers have no way of controlling those who spoil things for the majority.
As for the police, in those days they had a free hand to deal with crime, in the 60s/70s police dealt succesfully with many gangs and serious criminals. Trials were swifter and cost less. Now, the police have fantastic technology at their disposal to provide the inteligence to deal with criminals but are hampered by time consuming human rights nonsense.
It is worth not being so swift to applaude unsafe convictions. Most unsafe convictions are based on technicalities rather than actual innocence.
Look around at whats happening in this area alone, I won't detail the crimes as that would be innapropriate. Consider that 90% of crime goes unreported and most of that reported cannot be followed up, sometimes due to policemen being grilled in court rather than feeling collars.
In essence, its time to name, shame and shun outlaws and to heck with their human rights. Bang em up for good and make their conditions basic.
As for neighbours, this village is as unfiendly as it gets. This is due to the detached lives of the occupants and the anti social behaviour which we see and hear each day. People are simply afraid to complain as the law immediatly sees them as aggresive and intollerant to others.
I am appaled at the behaviour in the village at night, both young and old have no consideration for the peace of those living in the flats above the shops. Cars and bikes scream around and there is a constant toing and froing of cars delivering from the restraunts, usually at high speed.
Going back just a decade the village was silent at night.
So thats the degeneration in this area of plenty, have some feelings for how bad it is for those living in bad areas that live a life of hell, unprotected by the authourities who are too busy bending over backwards to finance the lives of those who contribute nothing but take all.
The answer, Zero tollerance on all crime, no warnings, no bail,just arrested, up before the beak and banged up if guilty, not enough prisons? easy make them build their own places of incaceration and let the rest of us live in peace.
regards,
jet
Moderate as usual :)
 

John_fraser

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2004, 10:16:07 pm »
The changes from the European Community to the European Union was more than “playing with words.” The EC was a trading alliance and a free trade area. While it was augmented by a series of bi-party agreements, its influence was almost exclusively trade based. Indeed, the free trade area did not come into effect until 10 months before the end of its existence. By contrast, the European Union by contrast covers all areas of economic activity and beyond and has far loftier aims.

As you are only 10 years older than me, you can remember the 50s as well as I can remember the 60s. If that was the “Golden Age” you chose to defend then you have chosen very poorly.
  • It was the time of the Moors Murders, which match any crime since for revulsion
  • The Krays terrorised the East End of London and Richardson South London
  • Child mortality was 27 per 1,000 four times today’s figure
  • There was the three bloody years of stalemate in Korea
  • The Ulster Troubles reignited
  • Mods rioted in Brighton
  • The Aberfan Disaster was caused by poor safety procedures
  • John Profumo, Minister for War was forced to resign after a scandal that makes today’s sexual antics look tame.
  • Landlords like Rackman and his ilk exploited poor families forced to live in slums.

These are just from memory. If I did some searching I could find a lot lot more. Looking back, the 50s and 60s had as many problems as today. Some things are worse now, such as crime, and some are better such as poverty and child mortality. But the EU had little to do with either.

You may take this as “mere word games” but no one has ever been found innocent of any crime by any British court ever. Not even in the 50s and 60s did a British court require anyone to prove their innocence. The release of the “Birmingham Six” could be considered a technicality, provided you accept that the fact that the forensic evidence was discredited, that they were all beaten up and that the confessions were shown to be altered were mere technicalities.

The laws you believe hamper the police were put there for the protection of the innocent. The law draws a line – and a line that is needed – to limit the powers of the state. The other extreme is to have Brazilian style vigilante death squads executing street children every night.

There is undoubtedly a problem with anti-social behaviour. I certainly do not deny that. I just don’t think it can be blamed entirely on the EU and, from your comment about comprehensive education, it seems neither do you. I probably swing towards zero tolerance on crime – although I would include speeding and parking on yellow lines – but prison for all is clearly not the answer. We already have the highest prison population in Europe and you seem to think things aren’t getting any better. An before someone says that prisons are too soft, the suicide rate of nearly 2 per week seems to show that they aren’t all that soft.

If we want to stop anti social behaviour we need to build communities, not prisons.

 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2004, 11:38:08 pm »
The Moors murderers were convicted and put away for life, similar criminals nowadays serve time and are given new identities and lifestyles paid for by the taxpayer.
The Krays were treated the same way as the Moors murderers, similar villans nowadays serve 7 years.
You could get free dental, optical and hospital care with no waiting whatsoever. Child mortality was down to the medical knowledge at that time and the lack of modern conveniences.
Korea has been replaced by wose wars since, not one of which has been prevented by any of the " united nations" western world, what have you.
The Ulster troubles have been going on for 400 years, all solvable in one generation by giving Ireland full independance. The division of Ireland was continued to provide a cheap training ground for troops while preventing a Nation from rebuilding itself.
Mods and Rockers were peace loving compared to the thugs nowadays, they never interfeered with the general public. They had friendly punch ups with each other.I was There!
Aberfan was caused by rain. Modern Safety directives have not reduced death or accident rates in industry. If anything they cause accidents.
The Profumo case was nothing but media hype compared to the activities of the present day politiciams and captains of industry.
Rachman was in fact a fair landlord who provide a service when no one else bothered. My Mum knew him to be a reasonable man Compare it to the modern hotels that charge extortionate rates to the taxpayer to accomadate migrants etc and he compares favourably.

In those days there were no free rides, you worked and you paid for what you wanted. It was possible to get on in life by hard work and vovational evening classes, no micky mouse degrees paid for by mum and dad. Aspirations were more practical and not the must have attitude to gimmickrey that leads to jealosy and greed nowadays.

In essnce we have bad criminal behaviour because people take what they want and have no fear of retribution.

Its their human rights!

regards,
jet

Don't believe history, it is constantly re written, best to ask people of the era. No rose tinted glasses it was cold and tough, but families were strong. Communities were busted by high rise flats.
 

John_fraser

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2004, 12:10:37 am »
I struggle to think of any criminals worse than Hindley and Brady. The worst killers I can think of from the last 25 years, in terms of numbers and revulsion of the crime, were probably been Denis Nealson, Harold Shipman, Fred and Rosemary West, Peter Sutcliffe and the killers of Jamie Bulger. All of these got life and are still in jail, with the exception of Fred West, who killed himself and Bulger’s killers. This last case had the special circumstances that they were 10 year old children. I feel they were released too soon, some may feel that they should never have been released, but the fact they were children does make this case exceptional. From the tariffs given to the others, the Moors Murders and the Krays would have been given the same sentence today as they were then. You also didn't mention Richardson, who was latter released.

You can’t dismiss a 75% reduction in child mortality as just being because of “medical knowledge at that time and the lack of modern conveniences.” Whatever the reason for the improvement, it has improved and substantially. Nor were the Mod riots a “friendly punch up” as if it was all high spirits. People were stabbed, others hospitalized. I might as well claim that the vandalism in the village is just bored kids letting off steam. TPTB – can’t recall who was responsible – were warned that a stream ran under the spoil heap at Aberfan. They chose to ignore this warning and it was this stream, swelled by heavy rain that caused the movement. The British Minister for War at the height of the Cold War, slept with prostitutes who were friendly with a Soviet military attaché has to be the biggest political scandal of the last 50 years!

I also can’t believe that you can call Rackman a “fair landlord” and accuse others of viewing history through “rose tinted glasses” in the same post.

In any case, my point is not that we are better off now. We aren’t! My point was just that we are no worse off. One set of problems have been removed and another set have got worse. The other point was that you can’t reasonably blame everything on the EU, even if you do hate it. And you seem to be conceding this; High rise flats were indeed a big factor in the destruction of communities.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2004, 02:36:45 am »
We are ruled by Brussels, therefore whatever happens must be a result of their management of our affairs.
British government or law cannot be held responsible as they no longer exist to any degree which would be of influence.
Being honest or dishonest has nothing to do with ones socio economic group. A person is either good or bad.
The majority of people in poor conditions are still good citizens. What is the excuse for the type of vandals and criminals around here. It cannot be due to deprivation can it.
Quoting half a dozen murders as being special cases is insulting to those people who are murdered or maimed but do not warrent the attention of the media. Is any persons life worth more than any other? Daily we read of horrific murderers who are classified under the heading of manslaughter etc. Burglery once a crime that attracted 12 years now can result in a punishment of non custodial nature.
If thats a result of eu human rights directives then they can stick their human rights where the sun does not shine.
regards,
jet
Nice to have you back on form JF :-*
 

Offline trinity

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2004, 02:54:33 am »
Quote

You may take this as “mere word games” but no one has ever been found innocent of any crime by any British court ever.


At the risk of being accused of "word games", there is in theory a distinction in Scots law. Under that regime, the option exists to find the case "not proven". This has been criticised since it is short of an acquittal - but an outright acquittal is in that sense finding innocence.

Quote

The laws you believe hamper the police were put there for the protection of the innocent. The law draws a line – and a line that is needed – to limit the powers of the state.


This is true - up to a point. Such limitation is required - and certainly it would be inappropriate and dangerous actively to allow the police to beat confessions out of people. At the same time the law is often seen to strive far more to protect the accused than the victim. It isn't an easy balance. It isn't clear that there is a better way. But neither is it clear that the balance today is the right one.

Quote

If we want to stop anti social behaviour we need to build communities, not prisons.


That is true. But it is critically dependent on two things. On the one hand it requires commitment on the part of the members of the community - to act rather than to ignore problems. On the other it requires some sort of "empowerment" that enables action - rather than forbid it at all turns.

What doesn't help, is that both "empowerment" and "community" are terms that have been discredited by politicians and vendors of snake oil.
 

AgentOrange

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2004, 06:20:05 pm »
Jet made the point earlier that Northern Ireland could be solved by making Ireland independent. If I remember correctly, two thirds of it is and that is part of the problem. One community wants to remain in the UK and one wants to join Eire. So again get the facts right! ;D

We all live together, community or not. Vandalism can be stopped if WE do something. 'All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men (and women!) to do nothing, falling one by one, an unpitiable sacrifice in the struggle between good and evil' (or something like that). And the power of us as a community would be staggering.

We have all talked about taking registration numbers of speeders and other minor offenders ( I've got one for the local police today - a teenager on the back of a moped with no helmet: reg number is already with the police together with my name and address). So lets get organized: all we have to do is report offences and be prepared to committ ourselves to a witness appearance in court.

At the end of the day blaming it on anyone but ourselves is a cop out, a failure to accept the social responsibility we have for each other. I watch out for my neighbours and I have escorted hooligans out of the village on 1 occasion. Lets all do our bit. Its a start if nothing else.
 

John_fraser

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2004, 11:35:33 pm »
Jet, if you hold that everything that happens in this country steams from the EU, then you must accept that anything worthwhile that has happened in the last 34 years has also steamed from there. Also please do not wilfully misconstrue my comments. I showed that the worse murders of the last 25 years got the same punishment as the worst murders in the 60s. And as I stated earlier, the European Convention on Human Rights is not an EU directive, or an EC directive or a directive by anyone outside the UK, because it wasn’t a directive. The government incorporated it into British law voluntarily.

Trinity, I believe that in Scottish law the requirement is still upon the prosecution to demonstrate the guilt. For all practical purposes a verdict of “Not Proven” and “Not Guilty” are the same: The accused can not be retried under either. The insinuation is that “Not Proven” means “we think you might have done it, but the evidence is weak” but I can find no legal references that state this.

The law does go to great lengths to protect the accused. And this is correct, because being “accused” does not mean you are guilty. I do not know if the balance is correct today, nor do I know if it is incorrect. You probably need to be both a victim and an innocent accused to know for sure.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2004, 03:16:48 am »
A O please explain why it is that the British Empire has freed all its colonies by allowing independance but refuses to allow a free united Ireland. Why does Ireland have less rights to freedom than India etc. People stil hate each other but at least if they are free they will in time settle down. How any one can construe Ulster as part of Britain is beyond me.
J F, I have been waiting for years for someone to tell me one good thing that has happened in this country due to the Eu, eec or european influence.
Our country was once unique. it has been destroyed by the adoption of foreign cultural impositions, all against the will of the people.
Yet again B Liar refuses a referendum on europe or the constitution. Why? because he knows the answer the British people will give him OUT OUT OUT. Thus destroying his illusions of granduer.
See the light, before we have civil war.
And another thing the liberal dispensing of alchohol and all day drinking has destroyed the infastructure of the comunity.
At least in past times, people got chucked out in time to go home for a decent sleep and a fresh start in the morning. Peace reigned after 11-30 pm.
regards,
jet
 

Offline Oly

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2004, 06:25:06 pm »
why dont we mount CCTV cameras up all around the village with night vision as well!!! so we can see whos fault it is and just blame everything on them it would be much easier, why cant a law exist were nuisance youths get deported to another country?
 

Offline Swan

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2004, 07:19:36 pm »
Quote
...why cant a law exist were nuisance youths get deported to another country?


a.) Because its a cop-out, the problem is of our own creation

b.) Where?
Godwin's Law:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
 

Offline Oly

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2004, 11:26:06 pm »
Quote


a.) Because its a cop-out, the problem is of our own creation

b.) Where?


Deport them to bosnia or somalia where they beg to come home, or just fine parents if their kids are causing a nuisance how about £1000 a time at every court appearance+legal fees, sounds fair to me
 

Offline Zorro

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2004, 04:46:45 pm »
Hola muchachos,we no have zis problemo en Espana. Ze polica jus deal wiv ze bad hombres wiv ze backing of ze citizena. all jus like zee old days, we no take notice of ze eu, we just get ze ow you zay andouts and it now mucho easy to take ze euros from all zee visitors, save mucho trouble. will look out for ze bad hombres as now back in our Spanish province of east eengland for the zummer, woe betide ze thugs an bandidos in ze vilage.
up tornado away.......

tornado he say neighhhooo
Zorro Defender of the oppressed
 

Skunkman

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2004, 01:35:42 pm »
what r u on about?
 

AgentOrange

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2004, 01:48:29 pm »
Its a pity Zorro, that the Spanish army can't do the same with the Iraqi insurgents! ;)
 

Offline Zorro

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2004, 11:02:33 pm »
Hola muchachos, sometime mie eengleesh is a lettle no so good, de nada. espana has decided zat zay do no wan to bee involve in zee midle east. ees ze will of zee peeple an zee el presidente see zis an acto.
Peety Breeteeesh government no act on ze will of zee peple no? ees democracy no?
up tornado away
Zorro Defender of the oppressed
 

AgentOrange

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Re: Vandalism
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2004, 12:49:27 pm »
Two points:
1. Democracy does not neccessarily equate with good government;
2. Spain is a Western European country. As Al Quaida and the rest hate Spain for that reason and for kicking the Moors out in around 1400, you are involved whether you like it or not.

Time to decide: fight or be destroyed? Which is it to be?

To make a spurious link to this thread, its vandalism, but on a massive and far more serious scale!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 12:49:52 pm by AgentOrange »
 

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