Author Topic: 4X4: To be or not to be  (Read 108325 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AgentOrange

  • Guest
4X4: To be or not to be
« on: February 03, 2004, 06:52:34 pm »
I would like to take this opportunity to say that 4X4s are great.  ;D I once spent 3 hours stuck in a hill in snow in a 2 wheel car - never again. Since I got one its never happened since. Certainly the use of low and high ratios needs to be explained to some buyers,  ??? as does the fact that when braking on snow or ice they are no different from any other vehicle.  They can use more fuel than other vehicles, but as the same sized engines are often used in saloon and estate vehicles from the same manufacturer, this is not really an issue. I can see either a streak of the green eye in many of the comments or a touch of puritanism in many of the comments that have appeared on this site, neither of which is desireable. We live in a society where we al have a vast number of choices to make, including the vehicles we drive. 4X4 suits me and my family. If you don't want one, don't buy one. But do complain about inconsiderate parking and silly driving antics - these are not the sole preserve of 4X4 drivers. So enjoy the fact that we are all free to make choices: 'LIVE FREE OR DIE' (seen on a 4X4 number plate in New Hampshire, USA). ;D
 

AgentOrange

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2004, 06:53:22 pm »
I've got typsoisis - I meant to say 2 wheel drive car!  :-X
 

Simon_Barnes

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2004, 07:30:15 pm »
I'm sure that the 24 hours of snow we had last week has eased lots of troubled consciences in BP.
But can any owner who doesn't have a big caravan or a horsebox to tow tell me how they justify running a vehicle that weighs twice as much, drinks twice as much fuel and probably took twice as much energy to create than a normal family saloon.
Oh yes, I forgot, your freedom of choice.
Silly me.
 

Mary_Morgan

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2004, 07:55:09 pm »
Mr Barnes, you said it all "freedom of choice".     :o

I can justify driving my Jeep because it is my personal choice to drive it.  It may drink twice as much fuel as an eco friendly mini, but I am a low mileage person, so probably use less than most of those eco friendly minis, so why shouldn't I drive it.  As for twice as  much energy to build - how come?   What I am driving is little beyond a WWII jeep - probably very cheap (if not almost non existent) on design and build costs.   I would doubt the design and build costs of any 4x4 are more than those of most 2 wheel drives.   After all it is not new technology.

If we do not have freedom of choice where do we stop - will someone pontificate to me on the colour of my underwear because of the difference in the cost of producing the dies.  You could go on forever and ever...........  this is where I jump off the world.

Mary



 

Offline Reginald

  • Opinions on some things
  • **
  • Posts: 32
  • Gender: Male
  • Gunners fan
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2004, 08:11:09 pm »
 I think I will go to the BPH to watch the mighty Arsenal tonight.I had contemplated taking my 4x4 (25mpg) but looking at the weather I will only need 2WD (28mpg). So, not wishing to get adverse comments from the BP Eco-Warriors,I will get my wife to drop me off in her Beamer (22mpg) ;)

Come on you Gunners!!!! :) :) :)
 

Mary_Morgan

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2004, 08:26:19 pm »
Reginald

Raise a glass for me to the mighty Gunners. Is there any other team? :)

But remember to be careful walking home - there are an awful lot of 2wd out there waiting to run you down. ;D  Best get the wife in her gas guzzling Beamer to pick you up. 8)

M
 

Offline Alfred the Great

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2004, 09:07:03 pm »
But surely its the short journeys which use even more fuel, so 24mpg (which you can be sure is the steady 56mph figure) suddenly becomes 10 or less, and the exhaust is many times more polluting with a super-rich mixture being injected for most of the journey.

I'm afraid I agree with Mr Barnes on this one. The only thing I think he forgot is that 4x4's seem to have become a fashion statement/must-have among the ladies, and having suffered the damage caused to our gates, driveway and garden by the mother of one of my daughter's friends who admitted she couldn't control the thing, I have been anti ever since. Yes, you have the choice of what to drive but as I have stated in a different thread, people tend to drive faster than usual in them and it is undeniable that they take up much more roadspace than any large family car.

ATG
Confucius he say "a dog is for life not just for Christmas Dinner"
 

Offline Alfred the Great

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2004, 09:29:56 pm »
And I forgot to mention, having had my memory jogged by the other thread, we were taking a walk last Thursday morning after the overnight snow, and a 4x4 came hurtling down Mymms Drive on the packed ice, must have been doing 40 at least. There is NO WAY that he could have stopped if anybody had come out of Calder or their driveway. As the other person said, 4WD might be good to get you going in the snow but they still take just as long to stop as a 2WD.

ATG
Confucius he say "a dog is for life not just for Christmas Dinner"
 

Mary_Morgan

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2004, 10:02:24 pm »
ATG

I said I was low mileage, I didnt say it was short journeys.  It is probably just that I don't go anywhere too often -  my choice.

Oh dear, aren't we becoming rather sexist, so now we are into incapable women drivers in a fashion statement.    What an imagination men have - most ladies want the best vehicle they  can to get for the school run, the supermarket, the kids, a weekend's camping in Norfolk or wherever.  Ladies want cars that are useful, not the testosterone image makers that most men think they themselves need.    

Any person, male or female, should be able to drive any vehicle they are licensed to drive.    Don't blame the car that they are driving.    

If the mother of one or your daughter's friends said she did not know how to control it, I would question your daughter's ability to choose her friends (obviously with your parental guidance).

"People tend to driver faster in them" - tosh - in fact the reverse is probably true - 4 wheels on the ground probably makes more noise than 2.  I certainly drive my 4 litre Jeep far slower than I did my Ford Escort back in the UK because it is too noisy (despite that the jeep is 4 ltre and the esort was 1.3.

Please find me the dimensions of my Jeep Wrangler.  Without getting the handbook out, I have not got a clue( Being a woman, of course) I actually find it easier to park in a small space than my nice homely ford escort.

Cheers

Advice please on the next car - 4x4, bentley, RR, Lexus, all advice gratefully received.

Mary
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2004, 10:28:01 pm »
4 litres just to go to and from the bar, why not choose a camel they do miles to the gallon of H20 and provide a by product which is much needed in the desert :) :) :) :)
Again it comes down to personal choice, ie typical to BP I'll do what I like and to hell with the environment. >:(
regards,
jet
« Last Edit: February 03, 2004, 10:28:30 pm by jet »
 

John_fraser

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2004, 11:06:30 pm »
I hate it when I have to agree with JET, but here goes:

4x4s give you better visibility, but at the expense of the visibility of all the other drivers.

4x4s supposedly give you better survivability in a crash, but at the expense of the survivability of the car you hit.

4x4s may be more comfortable, but at the expense of using up more than their share of road space.

4x4s are supposedly able to deal with conditions other cars can’t, but at the expense of being massively less fuel efferent (i.e. at the expense of everyone’s future).

Last month I went on an off road driving experience and learnt how to use the low gear ratios for off road driving. This was my first and probably last time driving one of these things. While it was fun taking the thing over fields, ditches and hills and I also learnt that the skills required to drive these monstrosities in the “home environment” is totally different to driving them, or any car, on the road. Therefore I tend to agree that they are over sized, over priced fashion accessories. Yes you have every right to drive them, but we have every right to state what ridicules cars they are.
 

Mary_Morgan

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2004, 11:10:09 pm »
Hardly 4 litres to go to the bar - that is called drinking & driving ..   tut tut I am surprised you even suggested it.  ;D ;D ;D

As to a camel - surely they must be 4x4s - ever watched them race?

M

 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2004, 11:21:58 pm »
MM You are giving me the right hump!

Thanks to JF for posting for me, again we agree on something.

regards,

jet
 

AgentOrange

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2004, 11:23:22 pm »
I see the hair shirt brigade are out again. >:( I must walk to BP whilst trying not to fxxt as I might contribute to global warming! Oops beans for dinner! :o The large number of 2 wheel drive cars I saw wheel spinning in a frantic attempt to get up Brookmans Avenue last week whilst I safely and slowly drove to and from the village made it clear to me that I had made a good choice.
As for freedom of choice, people died to give us freedom of choice and I intend to use it before its either taxed or legislated out of existence.  ;D Belittle it as you will, you'll soon notice if its not there.
A fashion statement amongst the ladies? I must look out my best frock next time I drive. No stereotypes here then!
Less economical? Not true - my sports car does worse mpg. Takes up more space, hardly - my old estate was longer but narrower. Can't quite reconcile that with the statements made so far. Twice as much energy to make - pull the other one. The greenies should read Bjorn Lomboks' 'Sceptical Environmentalist' to see how "sound" most of these environmental claims are.  We waste more energy heating our homes than we do driving. To hell with the environment? No - like any sensible driver I only use motorised wheels when neccessary, preferring my bike or walking. Besides, short journeys knacked catalytic converters. I pay heavily for the privilege of driving a 4X4: more fuel tax, more road fund licence, more insurance tax. But thats my choice. You make your choices, I'll make mine and long may we rejoice in the differences. :)
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2004, 11:28:06 pm »
The trouble is these choices are killing the planet for the future.
Footpower up to 5 miles, its only 40 minutes to walk to Potters Bar Station, some females take more time than that to park...

THHHUUUDDDDD ARRRGHHHH Knife in back, still it was an environmentaly friendly stab....

regards,
jet
« Last Edit: February 03, 2004, 11:28:44 pm by jet »
 

Offline Mooniemad

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Gender: Male
  • Brookmans Park Forum Member
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2004, 12:33:14 am »
Well I've listened, read and spectatored(Is that a word?). The thing that comes to my mind is the number of 4x4 drivers who have mentioned that you prefer the safety advantage of having a big 4x4. The fact is if you drive correctly and stick to the law then your unlikely to have an accident.By suggesting you drive a 4x4 because of its safety advantage, your already suggesting that you are expecting to be in more accidents and so you have purchsed the vehicle in order to make you feel more secure if such an event was to occur(touch wood). By doing that your questioning your own driving capability. (Yeah I have confused myself aswell)

However I agree that people are entitle to their choice of vehicle and so you should buy what makes you happy. The thing that I find with many 4x4 drivers is that because they have a bigger vehicle that they feel they have right of way over other vehicles.

Its just a case of give and take.

PS. How did the Arsenal do? I seem to have missed the score?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 12:36:51 am by Mooniemad »
 

Offline trinity

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2004, 01:55:42 am »
Quote

Less economical? Not true - my sports car does worse mpg.


I'm not wholly convinced by the ecological argument. Last year I was doing some work for  a company with a customer down in Poole. On a number of occasions on the way home I passed anticlock queues on the M25 between the M3 and M40 (and on  a few occasions longer). Often I passed those queues slowly as I was in a clockwise one of my own. And that was just "sheer weight", let alone the times when everything was square-wheeled because of an accident.

Thousands of vehicles - including heavy lorries. It gives you a sense of the scale of the petroleun fuels industry that it can supply this lot cheaply enough (government depredations aside) to make it acceptable from a fuel cost view, to put up with this sort of thing.
It is cheap enough that, even including tax, petrol and diesel are cheaper than some bottled water.

4x4s are not the majority of vehicles on the roads. And the amount of excess fuel they use is small compared to what is wasted every day in traffic queues.

A limited resource ?  Certainly. But if anything is going to stretch that it is rapid increases in wealth in places like India and China, and the rise in car ownership that follows. Not to mention the Indian and Chinese heavy lorries supplying the retailers that cater to other results of increased wealth.

And in any case, I suspect that in the time between now and the resource becoming constrained (rather than just limited), alternatives in the form of fuel-producing bacteria will be developed to the point of economic viability. Not to mention things like fuel cells and efficient regenerative electric vehicles.

As to 4x4 suitability, I must declare an interest. Some time ago I drove an ex-Army diesel Defender. I went off-roading regularly enough that it was worth putting up with the discomfort in the (infrequent) cases of general use. When I was looking for a general-purpose family car I went for a Freelander because it fits everyone in, is reasonably fuel-efficient (the major factor being weight of foot), and it can handle the occasional fields and tracks that I need to be able to drive on. It is a diesel so chugs along happily in second on ice. Not as nippy in town as a small car, not as fast on the motorway as a petrol saloon, not as capable off-road as the Defender - although I no longer do that sort of off-roading anyway. But I don't really see the point of the bigger 4x4s unless they're actually going to be used for something serious - towing or off-roading. Relying on vehicle mass to protect you in an accident is placing a very heavy bet on something of dubious worth. Visibility is nice, but large numbers of conventional car drivers seem to get along just fine without it.  

Then again, I suppose it would be easy enough to do a similar sort of analysis on, say TVRs and large "executive" saloons and estates.


 

Offline Margaret

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2004, 10:32:36 am »
Mary goes on about freedom of choice but all freedom comes at a price. Choosing a 4x4 or similar to do short journeys is environmentaly inconsiderate as is driving and parking any large vehicle in a small village. I'm sure if Mary's neighbour drove a ten ton lorry home and parked it outside her house (in Brookmans Park) she would not be very pleased, it would be at the least very inconsiderate. If you live or work in a village you have to respect that fact and not drive etc. as if you were on a farm or in a desert or on a motorway etc. As I said freedom of choice has a price, its called being considerate to your neighbours. And before anybody starts moaning this means in everything you do not just what car you drive.
 

Offline Aidan Winwood

  • Opinions on most things
  • ****
  • Posts: 546
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh pish posh.  Release the Hounds.
    • GamerTrak
  • Expertises:
  • Market Research
  • Corporate Strategy
  • Marketing Comms
  • Video Games (professionally)
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2004, 10:52:21 am »
Look, I'm all for a bit of healthy debate, but can we please, please leave the Gooners out of it.
 

John_fraser

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2004, 11:20:26 am »
Quote
please leave the Gooners out of it.


They are out of it :) :)

(Spurs 'till I die!)
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2004, 11:48:10 am »
What is a gooner ( gunners?)
Cowboys wear spurs :o
regards,
jet
 

Offline Aidan Winwood

  • Opinions on most things
  • ****
  • Posts: 546
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh pish posh.  Release the Hounds.
    • GamerTrak
  • Expertises:
  • Market Research
  • Corporate Strategy
  • Marketing Comms
  • Video Games (professionally)
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2004, 01:52:10 pm »
That'll be 3 each then...

 

AgentOrange

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2004, 02:11:50 pm »
The statement that 'some of these choices are killing the planet' and therefore 4X4s are a real problem is spurious. Every day each of us takes a decision that has an environmental impact. Cars are no different. Unless you wish to return to the caves (if so you're on your own) there will be human impact on the environment. Freedom of choice is a sign of civilisation: the removal of those choices is the start of a move to tyranny. Margaret is right: lack of consideration for others is a problem. So like all good drivers, 4X4 or not, I try to be considerate when I drive. So therefore the 4X4 debate is irrelevant. Its really about the lack of consideration that some drivers show for others.
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2004, 03:15:27 pm »
Perhaps its more apt to consider driving efficient reasonably sized vehicles to at least attempt to conserve resources for the future than maintain the typical " I wil do what I want, because I can" stance prevalent in this once peacefull village.
regards,
jet
 

John_fraser

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2004, 07:06:42 pm »
Quote
Freedom of choice is a sign of civilisation:


And consideration is a sign of civilised behaviour.

So far all of your arguments about the environmental impact of these monstrosities are based on dismissing the arguments rather than countering them. Bjorn Lomboks' book was not called the 'dismissive Environmentalist'

These cars are larger and heavier than normal cars. This represents the extra material in them, which means they have extra metal etc, all of which uses extra energy to mine. Far more serious is their appalling fuel efficiency – and Transport is responsible for 25% of greenhouse (http://www.planetyork.co.uk/faqs.cfm#c) roughly the same as houses.

Then there is extra road space, the limitation of the vision of the driver behind them, the fact that being in a crash with one of them is like hitting a tank etc. And after all of that they are only really useful at most one day a year. A day I left my car on the drive and took the day of to play in the snow with my children.

 

Offline supersonic

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
  • Yabba-dabba-doo
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2004, 01:27:57 am »
Hey John,

In a recent post here you wrote:-

>
> (Spurs 'till I die)
>


After tonight's result just checking you're still living??

I see you're offline at present. Maybe you've wizzed round to AgentOrange, borrowed his 4x4, and with the benefit of the extra visibility it gives you gone hunting for that David Pleat bloke so you can tell him just what you think.......

rgds,
supersonic
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2004, 02:00:04 am »
I'll have you know young fella me lad, I was born in Tottenham and remember Greavsie when he had hair and they kicked pigs bladders about!
regards,
jet
It was a tanner to get in and a haporth of chips after.
 

Offline Margaret

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2004, 10:52:32 am »
I too was born in Tottenham and my brother regularly went to the Spurs ground. Personally I can't stand football, more a Rugby or Ice Hockey fan
 

Offline shads

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Forum Member
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2004, 11:25:42 am »
i reckon we shud change the title of this thread to 3x4 :what could have been.......
 

John_fraser

  • Guest
Re: 4X4: To be or not to be
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2004, 11:49:35 am »
 :'(
 

Tags: