Author Topic: A1(M) resurfacing  (Read 20220 times)

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Offline Bob Horrocks

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A1(M) resurfacing
« on: January 09, 2004, 02:10:52 pm »
Have you come across the following?:
The new site at http://www.quieter-a1m.com allows Welwyn Hatfield residents to sign the petition calling on the Highways Agency to resurface the Welwyn Hatfield
stretch of the A1(M) with modern "whisper quiet" asphalt.

I do not think I would fill in the 'on-line' section since it is not a secure site, but it does have a form you can download.

Offline jet

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2004, 06:00:31 pm »
Whilst the in car noise is annoying, a lot of people judge speed by noise and a quieter surface means faster driving ( if some people could actually go even faster than they allready do :( )
regards,
jet
 

Offline Alfred the Great

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2004, 11:49:43 pm »
Funny you should say that, Jet, only today I was on the new section just by the Clock at Old Welwyn and it felt really weird to be going so fast without any noise. The car felt as if it was wandering about a bit aswell, must have been moving the wheel more in the mistaken belief that I was going slower.

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Offline jet

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2004, 12:48:46 am »
Dear Alf,
Probably wandering because of the smooth surface and lack of ruts which act like rail tracks.
Try the noisy bit in a panel van, like a lancaster bomber taking off ( and no I havent flown one ;) )
regards,
jet
 

Offline Birch

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2004, 11:54:32 am »
Jet

I think perhaps you missed the point of the quiet surface.  It's not only that it's quieter when driving, but to reduce the traffic hum for residents that live near the A1.

Perhaps living a privileged area ie. BP you don't hear the traffic hum!

Birch
 

Offline jet

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2004, 01:54:54 pm »
Au contraire Birch.
I can hear the A1000 and M25 (when its moving ;) ) quite clearly in my wee jardinette.
My point was that quietness does seem to encourage speeding, no more than that.
Anyone living next to the A1 surely knows what to expect.
Every re surfacing seems to use different materials, it would seem there is no standard and that in the third millenium we have still not progressed to an ideal road surface.
regards,
jet
 

Offline Largey

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2004, 10:37:18 pm »
What would be ideal is an ultra smooth quiet surface on the A1 to dispell noise, followed by the roughest pothole ridden, slippery, nasty surface on Swanland Road so that the residents won't have to worry about all and sundry racing past at speeds sometimes in excess of 100mph......

One day they'll put a reasonable safe speed limit here along the road... We hope.....
 

Offline Alfred the Great

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2004, 11:24:42 pm »
I know what yoiu mean about Swanland Road, we live at the other end of BP but sometimes have to cross it on our bikes to get to the mud in N Mymms park, and the motorbikes go past incredibly fast - wouldn't surprise me if they use this stretch for doing the ton.

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Offline steve

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2004, 03:25:46 am »
the police always use swanland rd for practising fast driving too!!!!!!
 

Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2004, 10:32:44 pm »
Hi all,

The www.Quieter-A1M.com website that this thread refers to is in fact owned and run be me.

The purpose is to gather signatures in order to pressure the Highways Agency to resurface the motorway with so called "Whisper Quiet" asphalt. The net impact of this new surface would be a halving of audible noise from the motorway.

Fortunately A1(M) noise isn't the biggest issue here in BP, though I find I can usually hear the motorway if I have windows open at night (depending on the wind direction).

However elsewhere across Welwyn Hatfield it's a major headache particular at this time of year when the nights can be relatively warm and people have their windows open. Some people are actually selling up and moving where the problem is particularly acute!

I've just posted the latest update on the progress of the campaign here: http://www.quieter-a1m.com/latest.html

... and anyone who does feel that the motorway noise causes them a problem is invited to sign the online petition here: http://www.Quieter-A1M.com or print out the paper version and send it in.  The more signatures, the more pressure and the faster it gets re-surfaced with quiet asphalt!

Cheers,
Grant Shapps
Quieter A1(M) Campaign Organiser



 

Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2004, 10:33:02 pm »
Hi all,

The www.Quieter-A1M.com website that this thread refers to is in fact owned and run be me.

The purpose is to gather signatures in order to pressure the Highways Agency to resurface the motorway with so called "Whisper Quiet" asphalt. The net impact of this new surface would be a halving of audible noise from the motorway.

Fortunately A1(M) noise isn't the biggest issue here in BP, though I find I can usually hear the motorway if I have windows open at night (depending on the wind direction).

However elsewhere across Welwyn Hatfield it's a major headache particular at this time of year when the nights can be relatively warm and people have their windows open. Some people are actually selling up and moving where the problem is particularly acute!

I've just posted the latest update on the progress of the campaign here: http://www.quieter-a1m.com/latest.html

... and anyone who does feel that the motorway noise causes them a problem is invited to sign the online petition here: http://www.Quieter-A1M.com or print out the paper version and send it in.  The more signatures, the more pressure and the faster it gets re-surfaced with quiet asphalt!

Cheers,
Grant Shapps
Quieter A1(M) Campaign Organiser



 

Offline Largey

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2004, 10:43:50 pm »
Hi Grant,

I am approx 50 yards away from the A1(M) and have put up with the noise for years. It is so bad on occassions that you cannot have a decent conversation with anyone outside of the house. The sooner the rest of the A1 gets resurfaced the better.
Thank you for your determined effort on behalf of everyone. I only hope that you succeed sooner rather than later....

Well done again,

Paul
 

Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2004, 11:04:19 pm »
Thanks Paul,

I mentioned that you can find the latest news on the overall campaign here http://www.Quieter-A1M.com/latest.html but there's also some additional information that will be of interest to those in South Mimms, North Mymms, Brookmans Park and Welham Green areas....

During my most recent meeting with the Highways Agency they've agreed to replace the concrete section (that's the worst possible noise surface) of A1M with whisper quiet asphalt north and south bound around Junction 1 (S. Mimms in otherwords). They have promised to confirm how far north this will stretch. The work will take place this year once the roundabout has been completed.

Also during 2006/7 they will be strengthening the A1(m) between junctions 1 and 2 (northbound only) and resurfacing all lanes with whisper quiet for 4km. This should result in a noticeable drop in noise around Welham Green and Brookmans Park at that time.


Anyway, please be sure to sign the actual petition at http://www.Quieter-A1M.com and if possible ask your friends and neighbours to sign too and thanks again for your comments Paul.

Grant Shapps

 

Offline Jane B

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2004, 11:21:43 am »
So it's not just me! I have lived in Warrengate Road for six years and was convinced that the A1 was getting louder & louder but just put it down to an increase in speeding & traffic. Ive been onto the website, downloaded the form & after chatting with the neighbours I am bound to get a few more signatures for the petition - great idea & thank you!

:)
 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2004, 11:39:13 am »
I would be very careful about what personal information you provide on the petition form sheet - on the website it states that if you submit your email address you are effectively giving Grant Shapps carte blanche to send you as information about 'other campaigns he is running' (aka loads of stuff about things he is doing to try and get himself elected) - there is no opt out clause. By providing your address to him on the petition form, I wouldn't mind betting you will start receiving the same information by post in the not too distance future, based on the local conservative party's past record in this area.

Perhaps Grant could post to this thread, and modify the downloadable form, to state that the information provided will only be used with the A1(M) resurficing campaign? IMHO he should also provide an opt-in option to receive information on other campaigns that he is running as well, and not have that available by default.

James
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Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2004, 11:54:12 am »
Hi James,

Your fears are entirely unfounded!

For one thing, there's no need for me to collect names and addresses to write to someone.  That information is all on the electoral register anyway.

The online (and offline) forms clearly state that I will use email to keep individuals posted with the A1(M) campaign and any other local campaigns I'm working on of potential interest.

The above takes the form of a single email per week and every email has very clear unsubscribe instructions.

I can't imagine why anyone would take offence at this, but if you are easily offended - please don't sign the petition (though that approach won't help us get the A1M resurfaced).

All the best,

Grant Shapps
Chairman: Quieter A1(M) Campaign

 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2004, 11:59:50 am »
Quote
The online (and offline) forms clearly state that I will use email to keep individuals posted with the A1(M) campaign and any other local campaigns I'm working on of potential interest.


Please point out where on the petition form I have just downloaded it says you will be using people's email addresses for this purpose.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 12:00:20 pm by James_Bentall »
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Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2004, 12:27:33 pm »
Good point James.

Typically people haven't been adding their email addresses when signing the downloaded paper petition (as opposed to the online version where you have to add an email, because it's online), so I haven't included these 'paper based' people in updates.

However, since you've pointed out that inconsistancy, I've just added a line to the downloadable petition form about email updates. Also, the form and website do already make it clear that I happen to be the Conservative Parliamentary Spokesman for Welwyn Hatfield as well as Chairman of the Quieter A1(M) campaign.

Grant Shapps
http://www.Quieter-A1M.com

 

Offline James Bentall

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2004, 02:56:29 pm »
Thanks for your prompt action in changing the download form Grant. In reply to your other points:

Quote

Your fears are entirely unfounded!


Are they? This is the same local conservative party that admitted harvesting local email addresses in the local press for sending out publicity purposes, a good nine months after you yourself wrote an email to me after a similiar case involving one of my email addresses saying you would be changing your methods of collecting them? (See http://www.whtimes.co.uk/archived/2004/wk22_2004/news/asp/website.asp)

Quote
For one thing, there's no need for me to collect names and addresses to write to someone.  That information is all on the electoral register anyway.


True, however collecting information about which local residents are actively interested and passionate about local issues (and therefore presumably more likely to vote) can only be a good thing for you.

Quote

The online (and offline) forms clearly state that I will use email to keep individuals posted with the A1(M) campaign and any other local campaigns I'm working on of potential interest.

The above takes the form of a single email per week and every email has very clear unsubscribe instructions.


I don't think that's really the point Grant. If I sign up for a petition about the A1(M) resurficing work, and 3 weeks later get an email about a meeting you've had with the home office about it - fair enough. However, if 2 months later I get an email about, say, how the save Tewin Ward campaign is going, as far as I am concerned that would be spamming as it is not something I have any interest in at all.

Quote

I can't imagine why anyone would take offence at this, but if you are easily offended - please don't sign the petition (though that approach won't help us get the A1M resurfaced).


I am not easily offended, but do get offended when local organisations send me email I have not requested. As the local conservative party has in the past.

James
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 03:00:09 pm by James_Bentall »
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Offline Editor

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2004, 01:25:50 pm »
Dear Grant,

I wonder whether what you wrote in an earlier post could be slightly misleading. In it you seemed to suggest that during a  meeting you had with the Highways Agency they agreed to take action regarding the A1(M).

Quote
During my most recent meeting with the Highways Agency they've agreed to replace the concrete section (that's the worst possible noise surface) of A1M with whisper quiet asphalt north and south bound around Junction 1 (S. Mimms in otherwords). They have promised to confirm how far north this will stretch. The work will take place this year once the roundabout has been completed. Also during 2006/7 they will be strengthening the A1(m) between junctions 1 and 2 (northbound only) and resurfacing all lanes with whisper quiet for 4km. This should result in a noticeable drop in noise around Welham Green and Brookmans Park at that time.

However, the Highways Agency says the work around juntion 1, mentioned above, has nothing to do with your intervention, or your campaign, and was already scheduled to take place as part of the agency’s rolling programme of work. The scheme was  brought into the roads programme in October 2002 when the Secretary of State for Transport Alistair Darling announced schemes to improve safety and reduce congestion at 92 junctions across the country. Click here for a news release on the HA site that makes this clear. The date the scheme was agreed is made in notes to editors number 2 at the bottom.

As for resurfacing the A1(M) with a quieter surface, the HA says this was already in hand as part of its programme of work and is again nothing to do with your intervention or campaign. The HA says it prioritises the roads that need resurfacing and when they come to the top of the list they will be resurfaced with whisper-quiet asphalt.

As regards the noise levels, the HA says it carried out fresh calculations on the stretch of road through Welwyn Hatfield because it was being asked about the road noise levels (presumably following the publicity cause by your campaign). The HA says that when asked for information it takes care to ensure that the data it has is up to date. That is the only reason a fresh examination was carried out. The HA says the information gathered has not changed the position regarding the A1(M) standing in its priorities list.

The quote from your earlier post might mislead some people to believe that your campaign was responsible for work that was already planned. The good news might be that the work is planned and will happen regardless of any petitions.
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Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2004, 03:04:51 pm »
Dear Editor and everyone else with an interest in A1(M) noise,

The trouble with Highways Agency is that they hold private meetings and tell you one thing and then in certain cases their press spokespeople (who do not attend the actual meetings) come out with another version of events.

With regard to the case of the Junction 1 concrete resurfacing, I accept their comment as outlined in your own post.

However, with regard to the fresh calculations, the information they’ve provided you with is completely incorrect and blatantly misleading.

YOUR QUOTE:
As regards the noise levels, the HA says it carried out fresh calculations on the stretch of road through Welwyn Hatfield because it was being asked about the road noise levels (presumably following the publicity cause by your campaign). The HA says that when asked for information it takes care to ensure that the data it has is up to date. That is the only reason a fresh examination was carried out.
END QUOTE.

Absolutely incorrect.  Here's precisely what happened...

I was specifically informed by the Agency at the beginning of this campaign that there were no ongoing plans to re-calculate noise levels in Welwyn Hatfield.  

However following a great deal of lobbying which included local media coverage and the collection of petition signatures, the Highways Agency finally agreed to meet with myself and Cllr Lance Stanbury (now no longer a councillor) on Lemsford Lane on 18th Feb 04.

As a DIRECT result of that meeting (during which I presented the evidence of sound readings carried out on a noise meter that I had purchased), the HA finally agreed to carry out a fresh set of calculations at three locations and promised to write a report on the findings by end March 04.

There simply were no plans to carry out a noise survey prior to this meeting and it is absolutely wrong of them to claim it was part of an ongoing plan.

Indeed this development was widely covered in the local media on 23rd and 24th June. The coverage included quotes from the HA which make this version of events absolutely clear.

Incidentally, in the event the HA contractor did carry out the fresh noise calculations, but the HA failed to produce the promised report on time by the end of March.  There followed press articles where I publicly complained about this delay.

On 16th June 04 I met again with the HA in Hatfield and they once again apologised for the delay in producing the fresh noise calculation report, but promised the results in a letter by the end of June. This letter has now been received and shockingly proves noise readings of up to 79 decibels.


QUOTE
The HA says the information gathered has not changed the position regarding the A1(M) standing in its priorities list.  
END QUOTE.


Well wait a minute...

During my 16th June meeting the HA representatives went to great lengths to explain the detail behind how the Agency work up their forward plan of repair and resurfacing.

He explained that as a result of public pressure emanating from this specific campaign, they were looking at "creative ways" to move forward resurfacing projects.

There are six criteria used in order to judge a project, one of which is an environmental factor.  I was specifically told during that meeting that as a result of the public pressure created by the petition the HA had gone back to their contractor, Mouchel, and asked them to re-appraise the weighting of the environmental noise factor.

This did lead to a slightly higher weighting being places on noise as a consideration for priorities on future projects.

So far I’m very disappointed with the HA response to the campaign, but in particular because of their extraordinary ability to give the impression that various projects are being expedited on the basis of the huge local public concern, when you meet up with them, but then when their press spokesman is asked to comment they backtrack to try to provide the impression that nothing has changed.  They can't have it both ways!

Precisely the reason why I intend to double the size of the current petition to 2,000 signatures and then demonstrate outside the HA offices precisely what it feels like to live with 79 decibel noise outside your window.  This is the equivalent of standing just 50 foot away from a pneumatic drill and we'll be taking one along to demonstrate how that sounds.

Grant Shapps
Chairman http://www.Quieter-A1M.com
 

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2004, 04:06:23 pm »
Dear Grant,

Thanks for clarifying the first point.

Quote
With regard to the case of the Junction 1 concrete resurfacing, I accept their comment as outlined in your own post.


As for the other quote you responded to you said...

Quote
There simply were no plans to carry out a noise survey prior to this meeting and it is absolutely wrong of them to claim it was part of an ongoing plan.


If you read the quote you were responding to again (copied below from your post)  it doesn't say that the HA claimed the fresh sound survey was part of the ongoing plan. They confirmed that the new readings were carried out because they had been asked for fresh information and they wanted to ensure they had the most up-to-date data. (No doubt as a result of your campaign)....

Quote
YOUR QUOTE:
As regards the noise levels, the HA says it carried out fresh calculations on the stretch of road through Welwyn Hatfield because it was being asked about the road noise levels (presumably following the publicity cause by your campaign). The HA says that when asked for information it takes care to ensure that the data it has is up to date. That is the only reason a fresh examination was carried out.
END QUOTE.


You then say that, as a result of public pressure.

Quote
This did lead to a slightly higher weighting being places on noise as a consideration for priorities on future projects.


Hopefully, the HA will clarify what impact this slightly higher weighting will have on the priorities it says have not changed.

David
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Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2004, 04:59:05 pm »
Thanks David.

Incidentally, how do you do that clever box around a previous post on this forum?

Grant.
 

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2004, 05:07:29 pm »
Simply click on the quote button at the top of a post you want to quote from. A box pops up with the whole thread contained between open and close quote brackets. Edit out the bits you don't want to quote, leaving in only those relevant to the point you are following up.
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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2004, 03:14:00 pm »
Dear Grant,

I have received another e-mail from the Highways Agency, which seems to contradict claims in your earlier post.

Quote
During my 16th June meeting the HA representatives went to great lengths to explain the detail behind how the Agency work up their forward plan of repair and resurfacing.

He explained that as a result of public pressure emanating from this specific campaign, they were looking at "creative ways" to move forward resurfacing projects.

There are six criteria used in order to judge a project, one of which is an environmental factor.  I was specifically told during that meeting that as a result of the public pressure created by the petition the HA had gone back to their contractor, Mouchel, and asked them to re-appraise the weighting of the environmental noise factor.

This did lead to a slightly higher weighting being places on noise as a consideration for priorities on future projects.


The HA confirms it met you and the local councillor and that a number of noise calculations on the A1(M) were carried out, but they say that it didn’t have any bearing on the priority list, not even a ‘slightly higher weighting’ as you claim. This is what the HA wrote in the e-mail.

Quote
“There have been a number of representations concerning noise from local people, the local MP, local councillors and also Mr Shapps at this location. The Highways Agency met with the local councillor and Mr Shapps and undertook a number of noise calculations on the A1M.    

It is not accurate to say that the specific schemes being carried out have come out of the discussions with Mr Shapps.  They are part of an ongoing five-year programme.

Major maintenance works are prioritised using a number of different criteria, one of which is environmental issues. On the basis of the calculations, the Highways Agency ensured that the schemes already proposed for this area received the maximum scoring. However, this did not affect their position in the priority rankings.”


So I don’t know how this ties in with your post in which you say that the pressure led to slightly higher weighting being placed on noise.

Quote
This did lead to a slightly higher weighting being places on noise as a consideration for priorities on future projects.


« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 03:14:50 pm by admin »
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Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2004, 03:54:09 pm »
I think we may be in danger of splitting hairs here.

I've also spoken to my HA contact, Paul McCrery, this morning (Route Mgr M25 Northern Section) who specifically told me that as a result of public concern in the area he'd asked the contractor Mouchel to re-appraise the environmental noise criteria to ensure that it was given full weighting.

As a direct result of this the noise environmental factor moved from a score of 54 up to 57.

Without massive public pressure it's clear that there would have been no reason for this amendment to have been made.

Also, during my previous meeting with Paul McCrery and Sheila Ballinger (Ass. Route Mgr) in Hatfield, Paul said: "In view of the campaign and public concern, we're looking creatively at maintenance work to see how it can be used to help solve noise issues over this stretch of motorway."

I don't want to overstretch claims of success for the http://www.Quieter-A1M.com campaign, in short I'm obviously disappointed that the HA has not responded by resurfacing the entire stretch junctions 1 - 7 both ways.  However it's clearly untrue to say that the campaign is having no impact.

I know one thing for certain.  Public pressure ultimately needs to ensure that road noise is taken far more seriously by the Dept of Transport and when people sign the A1M Petition this objective is brought nearer.

Grant Shapps
Petition at: http://www.Quieter-A1M.com


 

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2004, 04:39:20 pm »
Dear Grant,

I think, rather than being about splititng hairs, it is more about making sure that the claims that are made are correct. Through this forum thread you have accepted  that one particular point, regarding the resurfacing of Junction 1, needed clarification, and I think that is good.

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With regard to the case of the Junction 1 concrete resurfacing, I accept their comment as outlined in your own post.


This is a community site with an interactive forum where users can comment on issues raised. It means that ordinary people can examine any claims made by politicians, of whatever political party.

Your campaign site is different. It belongs to you, the chairman of the campaign, and is promoted by the local Conservative Party. The benefit of a campaign website for you as a politician is that nobody can post to challenge the claims you make. It also means that the people you encourage to join your campaign and visit your site read your take on the situation. That is not a dig at you. All parties have such sites.

You have, through this forum thread, taken a fresh look at some of your earlier claims. That can only be good. I thought you summed it well with this quote.

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I don't want to overstretch claims of success for the http://www.Quieter-A1M.com campaign, in short I'm obviously disappointed that the HA has not responded by resurfacing the entire stretch junctions 1 - 7 both ways. However it's clearly untrue to say that the campaign is having no impact.


Hopefully this hasn't bored the rest of the forum community, although for the last few days it does seem to have ended up a David v Grant debate. Perhaps we better continue it offline. I'll shut up now.

:)

David
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline jet

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2004, 07:22:32 pm »
che sara sara ( I think?) Any effort to alleviate the noise is to be applauded, its just that there will be more talking than action as usual. How can the cost of silencing be justified when the surface is useable. A few more potholes being filled may be a better use of resourses.
regards,
jet
 

John_fraser

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Off topic, but related to James’ posts
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2004, 10:52:16 pm »
Grant – how in the heck do you expect anyone to tick the box at the end of your latest – “vote for me I'll sort it all out” - form? I’ll admit that this time at least there is a box to be ticked. But the thing is about the same size the full stop on this screen.

On the previous form I thought its absence was funny. Now I really wonder about the honesty this was done with. Exactly how much junk mail are you and your party are intending to send out next May?
 

Offline Grant Shapps MP

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Re: A1(M) resurfacing
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2004, 10:46:45 am »
Hi John,

Oops. That dot was actually one of those 'Wingdings' errors where you typeset the box character, but the printer doesn't recognise the font. It wasn't spotted until after a small batch was printed and then corrected.

If someone ticks that general area, we respect their privacy.

Incidentally, on a related note, what someone receives at General Election time is completely governed by electoral law.  Since the voting register is already public knowledge, there's no particular advantage or reason to capture names and addresses the rest of the time.
 

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