Author Topic: Fly tipping in the local countryside  (Read 180167 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bob Horrocks

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Gender: Male
  • Expertises:
  • Green Belt
  • Parish Council
Fly tipping in the local countryside
« on: February 04, 2002, 07:05:59 pm »
A long standing problem nationally as well as in this area, unfortunately.  The problem is catching someone in the act.  Apart from laziness, a major cause is the Landfill Tax which has had the opposite effect from what was intended.  The District Council is increasing its workforce for this type of work, apparently, but as soon as one lot is cleared it frees up the spot for another load of rubbish.

The Green Belt Soc has recently suggested to the District Council the use of earth banks such as those used to deter gypsies.  
« Last Edit: October 02, 2002, 06:54:50 pm by admin »
 

Offline eric

  • Opinions on some things
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2002, 03:30:37 pm »
One of the biggest causes of fly-tipping is smaller-scale building works on residential properties.   New kitchens & bathrooms, knocking through rooms, extensions, loft conversions, conservatories, etc.   In a lot of cases the person who's having the work done is looking around for a "good price".   How often does that person check as to whether or not his builder's pushing up his profit-margin by cutting corners in getting rid of the rubbish ?!
 

Offline Nobby

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2002, 08:20:40 pm »
A bath has been deposited in the ditch on the south side of Bradmore Lane at the village end.
I suspect that fly-tippers do not use baths.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2002, 08:22:04 pm by Nobby »
 

rognjac

  • Guest
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2002, 10:20:05 am »
For a number of years, a part of my work with a neighbouring borough was to arrange for prosecutions against fly-tippers, seen either by my staff or members of the public.

Can I therefore give the following tips to any one who sees a flytipper in action. First of all, try and remember as much about description of the individual(s) as you possibly can, together with details of any vehicle being used - index number, make, colour etc., plus the materials being dumped.

If you can get a photograph of the vehicle/individual without putting yourself at risk, then do so.

DO NOT remonstrate with the fly-tipper - some of these individuals do not like to be engaged in polite conversation!

Most important, make notes of what you have seen as soon as practicable, and keep your notes somewhere safe. If you are called as a witness at Court, the defence would love to call the reliability of your memory into question.

Finally, report the matter to Welwyn Hatfield Council, for them to investigate and apply for a summons against the perpetrator.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2002, 07:07:53 pm by rognjac »
 

Offline eric

  • Opinions on some things
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2002, 03:28:09 pm »
Dear Rog 'n Jac
I'd be interested to know what your success rate was in the neighbouring authority ?   For example, what number of prosecutions you started on average each year, what percentage of all the tidying-up tasks that had to be done, what percentage of prosecutions were successful, and what was the order of fine/ term of imprisonment, etc ?
Thanks very much indeed  -  I'm sure this would be a useful context for us all
Regards
Eric
 

rognjac

  • Guest
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2002, 06:01:19 pm »
Dear Eric

I should explain that my work with fly-tipping prosecutions was 6+ years ago, but I don't think too much has changed in the interim.

On average, we were initiating about one prosecution per month for this offence - may not sound much when you compare with, say, parking offences, but the obtaining of good evidence is that much more difficult. For a start, council officers are not empowered to demand offenders' names and addresses. For this reason, most prosecutions were those involving motor vehicles. In those instances the council has the power to obtain from the DVLA the details of the vehicle owner, and it is an offence for the owner not to disclose who was driving at the time of the alledged offence. We then interviewed that person under caution.

It is something of a grey area to be able to prosecute on the basis of evidence found in the rubbish, such as letterheads etc., unless, when interviewed, the suspect admits the offence.

Fines normally were around £200-£250, with costs added at about the same level.

The value of a succesful prosecution, and most were  succesful, (and still are), was from the subsequent publicity in the local paper, who I always tipped off prior to the hearing.

Roger
 

Offline eric

  • Opinions on some things
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2002, 10:50:09 am »
Dear Roger
Thank you very much for your guidance.
For my own benefit  -  it seems that what you're saying is that for the whole of one entire Local Authority area, one legal case per month was being taken out, mainly against car dumpers (so only 2 ? rubbish dumpers each year).   If a case was successful, the sanction was £250 and a bit in the paper  (so the dumper was probably losing less than 2% of the money he/she was making, and not caring too much about being in the paper ?).
Sounds as if we are all on a hiding to nothing with these people.  How depressing.
And more depressing if it's true that most rubbish-dumping takes place within a mile of origination.   Might this fit in with correspondence elsewhere in the Forum that the character of the neighbourhood has swung away from the "truly rural" and become the "urbanised fringe"  -  with no real farms or pubs, few "local" shops, everyone commuting, cars everywhere, 90% of shopping from superstores, vandalism ranging from trespass, theft, bonfires, traffic feuds and smashed-up-shelters, endless house extensions & "improvements",  and so on.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear.   What if anything can really be done folks ?
Regards  -  Eric

 

rognjac

  • Guest
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2002, 04:58:54 pm »
Dear Eric

Re-reading my last posting I think I could have made myself clearer!

When I referred to "motor vehicles", I meant rubbish dumping from a motor vehicle, not abandonment of the vehicle itself, which is a whole different area as regard legislation etc.

We used the involvement of a vehicle to gain access to the dumper him/herself. In so doing we successfully prosecuted for dumping of anything from a 20 ton load of soil, down to  fast food wrapping thrown from a car.

But yes, you are quite right, an average of one prosecution a month is minute compared to the overall size of the problem. I have checked with my old colleagues, and they have still not mananged to improve upon this rate - and this is for a London Borough, with all the added problems of illegal trade refuse generated by large numbers of shops and businesses.

Roger
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2002, 10:36:04 pm »
Just seen the caravan at Warrengate, complete with aware notice, beyond belief, now if we could bodge up the car parts and the caravan we could cobble together a circus attraction.
sorry to be sarky,
jet
p.s. when dumped cars are left outside the dump and scrapyard and no one takes them in what chance have we got. "Its more than my jobsworth"?
 

Offline James Bentall

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1196
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep :-)
    • Brookmans Park Newsletter
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2002, 07:24:12 pm »
I noticed on Sunday that some kindly person has dumped a lot of fern branches in station road on the ground opposite the cub hut. I also seem to remember seeing a couple of blokes doing a lot of cutting of the same sort of tree on Friday, right at the end of Moffats Lane where it meets Mymms Drive.

Does anyone who's cleverer than me know whether it's possible to prove that those fern branches came from those trees? I know that dumping tree branches is not quite in the same league as dumping half a car, but it is still fly tipping...

Just a thought

James
« Last Edit: April 17, 2002, 07:26:06 pm by James_Bentall »
James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.
I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council
 

Offline sasquartch

  • Forum Moderator
  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • Brookmans Park Forum Member
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2002, 08:32:41 pm »
Just an observation....but if the people who cut the tree down had a bonfire then there wouldn't be this problem... ;) ;) ;)
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2002, 08:42:01 pm »
Dear S,
Carefull, you are getting as sharp as me, lets not cut ourselves, nice one :) :) :) :)
jet
 

Online Editor

  • David Brewer
  • Administrator
  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 8881
  • Thanked: 136 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Media Helping Media
  • Expertises:
  • Media consultant
  • Journalism trainer
  • Walking
  • Real ale
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2002, 05:39:19 pm »
The Welwyn Hatfield Times says members of the public have voted Woodside Lane in Bell Bar the worst blackspot in the District for fly tipping.  Click here for details  
Click here for the WHT article.
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Online Editor

  • David Brewer
  • Administrator
  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 8881
  • Thanked: 136 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Media Helping Media
  • Expertises:
  • Media consultant
  • Journalism trainer
  • Walking
  • Real ale
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2003, 05:54:46 pm »
It seems as though the fly tippers are taking advantage of Bradmore Lane being closed to traffic while the bridge repairs are carried out -- all traffic that is other than fly tipping traffic.  One fly tipper has even blocked half the road by just dumping tree trimmings in the lane.




Worth avoiding if you are going for a walk or a bike ride.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2003, 05:55:23 pm by admin »
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline trinity

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2003, 03:33:29 pm »
Is anyone here good at "integrating" electronic hardware ? And making it waterproof.

I'm thinking of an infrared motion detector coupled to a camcorder, with a battery for power. Small enough to hide in a bush or somesuch around that part of Bradmore Lane where it goes between the trees. Given the amount of junk that gets dumped there, whoever is responsible has to use a vehicle, and getting the registration might help the police a little.
 

Online Editor

  • David Brewer
  • Administrator
  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 8881
  • Thanked: 136 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Media Helping Media
  • Expertises:
  • Media consultant
  • Journalism trainer
  • Walking
  • Real ale
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2003, 03:55:13 pm »
Quote
I'm thinking of an infrared motion detector coupled to a camcorder, with a battery for power. Small enough to hide in a bush or somesuch around that part of Bradmore Lane where it goes between the trees. Given the amount of junk that gets dumped there, whoever is responsible has to use a vehicle, and getting the registration might help the police a little.

Hi Trinity, this issue was raised at a meeting of North Mymms Parish Council in March.

Click here to read the full story.

It might be worth talking to Bob Horrocks, a North Mymms Parish Councillor, and Hon Sec of the North Mymms and District Green Belt Society about how far the NMPC has got before you invest in any kit. Bob is a regular on this site, so he might answer directly.
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline john

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2003, 10:31:22 am »
and not forgetting that we at RVC are frequently on the receiving end of anti-social behaviour in and around Bradmore Lane (wish we could put the money we are obliged to waste on tidying up other peoples fly-tipping, in to other environmental improvements) ...

We looked in to portable camera kits (with digi-capacity, infrared, remote recording, etc) several years ago but the problem continues that a video is probably not enough to secure a conviction.   Equally the advice was:
~  if the quantity is a Transit-van full, then it's probably come from a house-improvement by someone in the immediate neighbourhood (surely not BP ... ?)
~  if lorry ... it's long-distance ... with professionals ... equipment ... and "attitude" ...

It's a thorny one and don't those Bs know it !




 

Offline trinity

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2003, 12:37:02 pm »
Has anybody kept a record of when these things appear ?

I suppose the burnt-out vehicles and such are yobbos from Hatfield, but if the (larger) amounts are being dumped from any distance it might be possible to discern some sort of pattern. Add that to an electronic alerting mechanism and it just might be worth some police time to be ready for them.
 

Online Editor

  • David Brewer
  • Administrator
  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 8881
  • Thanked: 136 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Media Helping Media
  • Expertises:
  • Media consultant
  • Journalism trainer
  • Walking
  • Real ale
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2003, 02:06:18 pm »
For those who haven't seen what people are talking about, here is a picture taken on Wednesday 10 December of the recent fly tipping in Bradmore Lane.

There is a complete bathroom suite, chairs, beds, and cupboards (enough to furnish a small bedroom), bags of building waste, household waste, and garden waste.

The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline steve

  • Opinions on some things
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • Gender: Male
  • Brookmans Park Forum Member
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2003, 04:19:54 pm »
the main cause of these dumpings are the increase in costs of skips. I have also tried to dispose of furniture for customers to be told by the dump that no vans are allowed. For us to dispose of one sofa or bed costs £30 minimum which most people don't want to pay. This load pictured would have cost approx £150 to dispose of. This looks more like the work of a builder or developer cutting costs. If you are having work done on your house try to check where your rubbish is being dumped.
 

Online Editor

  • David Brewer
  • Administrator
  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 8881
  • Thanked: 136 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Media Helping Media
  • Expertises:
  • Media consultant
  • Journalism trainer
  • Walking
  • Real ale
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2003, 04:29:48 pm »
Good point Steve.

We had some quotes for a wall to be rebuilt. One builder's quote included a skip to dispose of the old wall. When I asked the second builder about whether his quote included a skip he said no, he would use his van to remove the old bricks. I wonder where the bricks would have ended up if I had gone for his quote?
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Gender: Male
  • Expertises:
  • Green Belt
  • Parish Council
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2003, 01:55:58 am »
The Parish Council is to report this dumping to Welwyn Hatfield Council, after it was raised at the Parish Council meeting this evening (Wed 10 Dec).  

Bradmore Lane has been free from dumping for some time until now.  I thought it was the extra traffic using the lane while Warrengate Rd/Hawkshead Lane has been closed off for the flood prevention work.  But the louts could not resist it, could they.

The Green Belt Soc offered to fund a mobile spy camera (if not too expensive) in letters to Welwyn Hatfield Council.  They have not had the couresy to reply.

In WH Times some months ago the WH Council were reported to have bought a spy camera, but has any one seen it in action?  Thought not.


John_fraser

  • Guest
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2003, 11:34:57 am »
Quote
In WH Times some months ago the WH Council were reported to have bought a spy camera, but has any one seen it in action?  Thought not.


Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
 

Offline john

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2003, 10:34:47 am »
Dear Editor (David):  please don't always assume that the proposed/ actual use of a skip means that its contents will actually go to a registered dump ...
Equally we shouldn't assume that "all builders are cowboys ..."
bw  -  john
 

Online Editor

  • David Brewer
  • Administrator
  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 8881
  • Thanked: 136 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Media Helping Media
  • Expertises:
  • Media consultant
  • Journalism trainer
  • Walking
  • Real ale
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2003, 10:46:53 am »
So what's to be done John.

Do builders carry any documentation that shows they are committed to disposing of waste material at an offical site?

Is there a code of practice, or a form, we should be shown, or fill out before we agree to do business with them?

Do any local builders know?

The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline jet

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2003, 11:20:50 am »
You will not get an answer, most local builders are in the Carribean this month :) with skip loads of money 8)
 

Offline Swan

  • Opinions on some things
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Forum Member
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2003, 02:35:26 pm »
Its possible to buy a good quality, colour, pinhole Surveillance camera for about 100 quid. Add about 20 quid for perspex to make a waterproof box and your done. ;)
Reviewing tapes of this kind is a mind-numbing task though, unless you have a fairly specific time to target  

I could tell you how I know this, but then I'd have to kill you  ;D
Godwin's Law:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
 

Offline john

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2003, 09:06:17 pm »
It might be interesting to know how many people CHECK where their waste actually goes:  for example by asking their builder to see the docket from Tyttenhanger ...    
If my little grey cell is right, there's something in the Env Prot Act which lays a duty on waste-generators to ensure their waste is properly disposed of
Well OK, how many actually go to the trouble of following/ checking ?  (and that doesn't deal with the domestic dumpers from car boot or roofrack).  But not to is simply to abrogate responsibilities ...
I'm not saying there IS an easy solution cos we ain't found one yet that's legal and watertight:   but for starters one has to recognise unpaletable home-truths

best wishes, David

john
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

  • Opinions on everything
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
  • Gender: Male
  • Expertises:
  • Green Belt
  • Parish Council
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2003, 07:40:18 pm »
Went along Bradmore Lane today (Tuesday 16 Dec) and the main rubbish had been cleared, thankfully, but not the bags dumped abiut 200 yards on the left from Station Rd.  Thank you WH Council  and happy Christmas to whoever did the actual work.  I did also see workers (including a woman) with black bags and grabbers picking up litter on the A1000 up near South Way.

Offline Neville Hobbs

  • Opinions on many things
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2003, 07:55:46 pm »
Do the council go through all the dumped rubbish bags for names and addresses?
 

Tags: