Author Topic: Fly tipping in the local countryside  (Read 190275 times)

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Offline Editor

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #120 on: August 20, 2009, 08:13:55 am »
Did Walk Two yesterday around Wild Hill and the final part was blocked by fly tipping. The load was so big that it was almost impossible to pass. It's also dangerous with broken glass, nails in wood and sharp metal jutting out.

However there is so much there that I have a feeling that it may be possible to trace the culprits if someone spent enough time searching through the pile of rubbish.

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Offline Ferdie

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2009, 04:27:33 pm »
Hopefully the person who used these people to do some work may recognise their carpet. Trouble is I believe if you use a contractor/builder to do work & you fail to check that they are licensed to carry waste, you could also be held liable. Hardly a way of encouraging people to own up & 'shop' the offender.
 

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2009, 04:28:41 pm »
Hi Ferdie,

The pile of rubbish goes back a long way down the path. I am sure there will be clues in there as to where it came from.

Dave
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Offline epiphany

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2010, 07:48:33 pm »
Yet again Bradmore Lane is strewn with rubbish - this time pieces of carpet that must have been chucked off the back of a moving truck - What is wrong with these people - why can't they take it to the tip like everyone else!!!.
I find it so depressing that certain sections of the community have so little regard for the environment that we all live in. It makes me mad GRRRRR.
 

Offline Aloo

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2010, 08:49:39 pm »
I've reported the tipping this evening to the Council.  Let's see how long it takes to clear up!
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2010, 12:42:58 am »
What is wrong with these people - why can't they take it to the tip like everyone else!!!.

If you go to the tip in a van they want to be paid - as they say it is commercial waste

It may well be commercial waste but surely it's in everyone's interest for the tips to take everything wherever it's from to avoid fly tipping.
 

Offline stevea

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2010, 06:18:04 am »
Sasquartch - That would be the sensible solution but that's not going to happen.
 

Offline epiphany

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2010, 03:03:31 pm »
I've reported the tipping this evening to the Council.  Let's see how long it takes to clear up!

Well!! All cleared by approx 1pm the next day!!! Well done Wel/Hat Council!!!!
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2010, 04:31:25 pm »
I wonder if they just clear it up or whether any effort is made to trace the perpetrator ?
 

Offline Helen

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #129 on: January 28, 2010, 04:31:55 pm »
That's at least the 2nd time the council have had to clear Bradmore Lane in a week - on Saturday night we were driving along it when we were stopped by flashing lights & a council truck - some complete ****** had tipped an entire lorry load of rubbish...into the middle of the road!!! They hadn't even had the 'decency' to pull over & dump it on the kerb!! Inever thought I'd say this but thank goodness for WH Council & their flashing orange lights - otherwise we'd have driven straight into it in the dark!
 

Offline awill

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #130 on: March 17, 2010, 01:33:06 pm »
Catching the 828 this morning I noticed that someone has tipped a load of rubbish on the grass track (not the path) that runs parallel to the station entrance. I think this happened overnight as I do not recall seeing it the day before. Quite risky for the fly tipper given the proximity to the station and the village. Did try to work out if the station CCTV might have caught them on camera but the angles don't look right. Assuming the poor farmer will report this one to Welwyn Hatfield.
 

Offline awill

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #131 on: March 17, 2010, 01:43:39 pm »
Looked up what the penalties are for fly tipping, wonder if the idiots know just how steep the punishments can be. Extract from a home office website:
"Fly-tipping fines are up to £20,000 and/or 6 months' imprisonment. Fines are unlimited if the case goes to the Crown Court or up to 2 years' imprisonment, and up to 5 years if hazardous waste is dumped".

Do we know if Welwyn do a cursory examination of the waste that is dumped, just to see if, for example, empty packaging boxes are marked with addresses? Is it worth posting pictures of the waste that is dumped in case anyone recognises their own stuff, for which they may have paid to have it legitimately disposed.

 

Offline PS

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #132 on: March 17, 2010, 02:08:12 pm »
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Looked up what the penalties are for fly tipping, wonder if the idiots know just how steep the punishments can be. Extract from a home office website:
"Fly-tipping fines are up to £20,000 and/or 6 months' imprisonment. Fines are unlimited if the case goes to the Crown Court or up to 2 years' imprisonment, and up to 5 years if hazardous waste is dumped".

I totally agree that the persons who did the flytipping are a disgrace, and deserve punishment.

However, as we all know, the justice system will NEVER allow the perpetrator to get maximum fines nor 5 years inside if they caught - especially as you cannot get more severe crimes like mugging old ladies, killing people to have imposed maximum terms.

I am afraid that the flytippers know this - which brings me onto the next question - who are the REAL idiots - the flytippers, or the legislators and lawyers who have allowed our justice system to sink to such low levels. 
 

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #133 on: March 17, 2010, 02:08:52 pm »
Looked up what the penalties are for fly tipping, wonder if the idiots know just how steep the punishments can be. Extract from a home office website:
"Fly-tipping fines are up to £20,000 and/or 6 months' imprisonment. Fines are unlimited if the case goes to the Crown Court or up to 2 years' imprisonment, and up to 5 years if hazardous waste is dumped".

Do we know if Welwyn do a cursory examination of the waste that is dumped, just to see if, for example, empty packaging boxes are marked with addresses? Is it worth posting pictures of the waste that is dumped in case anyone recognises their own stuff, for which they may have paid to have it legitimately disposed.



I posted this comment last Feb 09 but I think it is relevant to the question of idiot fly tippers

A friends of mine who runs a community centre in Hertfordshire, was confronted one morning by a large heap of fly tipping outside the community centre doorway. Amongst all the rubbish was some paperwork that gave a name and address in Enfield.

After some investigating it transpired the owner of the rubbish had paid a “Tree Surgeon“ (who had since disappeared) to do some work in their garden, which involved demolishing, clearing and disposing a gardens shed.

In addition, they had paid £200 for the rubbish to be disposed of. But instead it was dumped outside the secluded doorway of the community centre.

It gets worse, because when the council came to inspect this junk, it was established it contained asbestos, which as we all know to be a health hazard. Therefore the council will not handle the clean up. Here’s “the rub”, the community centre had to pay a specialist company to remove this hazardous material. (I believe about £300.)

The centre was closed to the playgroups, weight watchers, flower arrangers , and all the other users, until it was deemed safe for the community centre to be use again.
 

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #134 on: March 18, 2010, 12:34:59 am »
So, going full circle, isn't it the duty of the householder (who didn't check the credentials of the 'tree surgeon' thoroughly enough) to pay the bill?

If someone hires a tree surgeon and then asks them (or perhaps they offered) to do a bit of demolision and clear a shed (and the rubbish contained asbestos), I would think the onus is on the bloke who agreed the deal. Surely he had a feeling something dodgy going on.

It surely shouldn't fall on those who run the community centre.

Dave
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Offline Johnny Redd

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #135 on: March 18, 2010, 07:28:58 am »
Absolutely 100% correct David
 

Offline PS

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #136 on: March 18, 2010, 07:42:29 am »
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Absolutely 100% correct David

Maybe - but if the cost of removing asbestos was not so prohibitive, then perhaps there would be less temptation for people to try to get it removed by eh... more "dubious" means. Its not something that is easy to stop - and I would go so far as to say that some forum posters have done the same thing in the past eg wrap up asbestos in other waste and throw it into the skips at the dump etc.

As a few of the operatives at the one in Potters Bar - they'll tell you a story or two about asbestos waste.
 

Offline Editor

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2010, 08:02:04 am »

I would go so far as to say that some forum posters have done the same thing in the past eg wrap up asbestos in other waste and throw it into the skips at the dump etc.

As a few of the operatives at the one in Potters Bar - they'll tell you a story or two about asbestos waste.


I hope you are wrong, PS, I can't imagine any responsible citizen putting the lives of others at risk by disquising hazardous waste. This isn't about dumping and saving cost, it is surely akin to assault, causing GBH or even manslaughter in the event of death. I hope the authorities are as well informed as you claim to be and are doing something about it.

David

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Offline stevea

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2010, 09:12:41 am »
Unfortunately David, PS is absolutely correct. I see it all the time. A lot of people will go to any length to dispose of asbestos to avoid paying for the service. My company used to remove asbestos..but we pulled out last year simply because of seeing lawsuits against legit companies , finger pointing from people trying to say they've inhaled asebestos dust (employees, Joe Public etc) and the cost of disposal. It just wasn't worth the aggravation and the red tape was a nightmare.
 

Offline PS

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2010, 09:21:17 am »
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I hope you are wrong, PS, I can't imagine any responsible citizen putting the lives of others at risk by disquising hazardous waste. This isn't about dumping and saving cost, it is surely akin to assault, causing GBH or even manslaughter in the event of death. I hope the authorities are as well informed as you claim to be and are doing something about it.

I hope I am wrong too DB, but unfortunately there ARE irresponsible people around. There are also UNINFORMED people around who wouldn't know what asbestos looks like. A couple of the operatives in Potters Bar have apparently seen instances of people dumpling asbestos into the skips - and have approached them accordingly to remove and take it from site. This arose because one time some years ago I saw some altercation with a dumper and an operative. Once the dumper had quit, the operative who was clearly disturbed stopped to say a few words to me and said this was not the first time asbestos had been attempted to be dumped.

Furthermore on this occassion when I was present, the dumper apparently claimed that 'he did not know it was asbestos'. Herein the problem - apart from knowingly dumping asbestos, I am pretty certain that there are instances of people who genuinely do not know its asbestos - especially the younger generation.

Sounds bad - but I bet it happens.
 
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2010, 01:22:22 pm »
Does anyone know the answer to this? 

I believe there are two sorts of asbestos, being blue and white, and that one of them is not a problem.  I have been told in the past that the amount of asbestos in corregated roofing sheets is not enough to be of concern.

Offline PS

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2010, 01:41:08 pm »
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Does anyone know the answer to this? 

Some potential suggestions :

(a) how about the local authorities PAY for the cost of disposal - this would prevent the widespread dumping of asbestos that most probably occurs. If most families on limited incomes have a choice between paying for the family food bill or dumping asbestos through a licensed remover, I know which they would choose !!

(b) awareness through leaflets published that could be attached to all Council Tax Bills sent to households annually - the cost of the one or two pages extra attached to the usual booklets would be marginal additional costs.

(c) a specific person/(s) within the local authority could be employed to deal with cases of suspected asbestos waste.

Clearly there would be a cost associated with the extra funding required, but then lets face it, there are many other areas of council tax "waste" of money schemes that could have a cut budget. I can certainly think of several - including catering for minority interests !!!   
 

Offline stevea

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2010, 08:24:20 pm »
Hello Bob - There are actuallly three types of asbestos - blue, brown and white. The most dangerous is blue, then brown, then white....all of which can kill. White was the most commonly used which I believe was mined in Cyprus. Blue and brown, South Africa and Western Australia. The colours are different levels of concentration. Asbestos is the after burn of molten rock, that's why it's so heat resistant. NASA couldn't put a rocket in to space without it.
All corregated roofing sheets that contain asbestos are dangerous. Some were made from 100% bonded asbestos and some with only 10%. They are just as dangerous. It's only one small fibre that can kill.
So Bob, anything that contains asbestos is of concern. Bonded asbestos is not dangerous until it is broken up...in other words, when the bond (resin) is damaged....a bit like fibre glass,
 

Offline PS

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #143 on: March 20, 2010, 06:25:15 am »
Hhmpp - that's very interesting Stevea - I didn't know either that there were three types either. Thanks for the very lucid explanation. So it seems that ALL types of asbestos is of obvious concern.

Would you know if they still produce asbestos for general consumption, and if they are still used in public / domestic buildings for any reason, or whether it is strictly controlled and manufactured for specific use only, such as putting rockets into space ?
 

Offline stevea

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #144 on: March 20, 2010, 07:30:33 am »
Hello PS - believe it or not, there are actually five types of asbestos, but only the ones I've mentioned are used in the building industry. It gets very technical, and you'd need to be a scientist to understand the different make up of each type. As far as I know, all Westernised countries have very stringent regulations and are not allowed to manufacture except in controlled circumstances. In third world countries, it is still widely mined and used e.g the Thai government told the people that the need for asbestos outweighed the danger. To be honest, you have more chance of getting run over by a bus than getting asbestosis but the simple fact is, it can kill.
It frightens the life out of people..for example, last year when we turned up at a property to remove an asbestos shed, I might as well have said to the neighbours that I've got a gun and I've come to shoot you all!!
On the other side, you get people who don't give a monkeys and we still get calls from the public saying they've ripped it all out and it's sitting on the drive - not wet down or wrapped - incredible.
 

Offline PS

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #145 on: March 20, 2010, 04:25:51 pm »
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On the other side, you get people who don't give a monkeys and we still get calls from the public saying they've ripped it all out and it's sitting on the drive - not wet down or wrapped - incredible.


Yes it seems like it. Here on location we have had a similar problem - some local schools up country have ripped the stuff up and expect us, as part of our companies CSR policy, to remove it !!! The problem is how - they have left it all crumbling in pieces, in hot weather and no rains with high winds thereby spreading the dust all around the local villages and beyond. !!!

I am still trying to evaluate how much all this is going to cost us - as its not a Western country, there are no licensed asbestos removers, so we may be required to import some expertise.

Here it really is a case of many not being informed of the dangers - but I am truly stunned at what you say about people leaving the stuff on their driveways over your way, when they should know better. Lets hope this has not happened in the BP local community.
 

Offline BrookyP

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #146 on: March 21, 2010, 10:11:38 am »
theres a load of grey/white asbestos (asbestolux ?) corrugated sheets at the end of the station car park in BP. they are just sitting there with a cone around them. guess its a fly tip.



bp
 

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #147 on: March 21, 2010, 11:54:56 am »
I
Quote
hope you are wrong, PS, I can't imagine any responsible citizen putting the lives of others at risk by disquising hazardous waste. This isn't about dumping and saving cost, it is surely akin to assault, causing GBH or even manslaughter in the event of death. I hope the authorities are as well informed as you claim to be and are doing something about it.
Quote from DB
Quote
theres a load of grey/white asbestos (asbestolux ?) corrugated sheets at the end of the station car park in BP. they are just sitting there with a cone around them. guess its a fly tip.
Quote from BrookyP

If this is true, the WHAT are the authorities doing about it ? A cone implies [not always of course] that an "authority" has spotted the problem.

Perhaps the problem IS more widespread than what some believe.

 

Offline BrookyP

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #148 on: March 21, 2010, 05:40:49 pm »
as i understand  grey asbestos was used in insulation boards/fireproofing on boilers ironing boards etc till the mid 80s and in some boilers till the mid 90's. its also everywhere in asbestolux sheeting which was used to roof garages.

Its fine really left alone and is only a problem when smashed up and thus creating dust. if you have any leave it where it is or coat with a resin paint to seal the problem in-or pay to get it removed.

It was all over my old garage in whetstone but only required the bare minimum of protection when the licensed firm removed it. (mask/paper suit/closed skip)

One interesting thing i found out was that its also in some old artex finishes. I was told this by my plasterer on saturday so we opted to have the artex ceiling bond coated and plastered rather than scraped off.

Blue/green? asbestos is much more high risk and was used in heating applications (lagging of boilers/lining flues etc)
My step dad used to cut it in the 60's/70's to line flues in industrial applications. Removal of that stuff is a much bigger deal with removers needing independant oxygen supplies to the operatives and closed sealed removal sites.

When i was a kid they took a load out at my school and decided to leave it in the playground in single seal bags (should be double bagged and in sealed skips.... my dad made me take a week off school until they removed it.

so that worked out well for me....


anyway all the above is as i understand it and does not constitute advice etc blah

bp






 

Offline stevea

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Re: Fly tipping in the local countryside
« Reply #149 on: March 21, 2010, 09:11:36 pm »
All asbestos is the colour grey. The colour codes, blue, brown, white..are just codes to show how dense the fibres are, and that can only be done under a microscope..all of which can kill. One microscopic fibre can lay dormant in your lung for 20 years then suddenly turn in to a very aggresive cancer.  There is only one type of asbestos when it comes out of the ground - A grade - which BrookyP is talking about. It was used for lagging boilers etc and is a loose, fluffy dust. Then there's bonded where resin is added to form any shape e.g corrugated roofing. It concerns me that the old school rule book attitude that 10% is less hamrful than 100% when it's only one fibre that can kill. Anyone that tells you that some asbestos is less dangerous than others is wrong. Some is more dangerous to move than others hence different licencing requirements and equipment. I hold a licence to remove bonded asbestos in the UK and in Australia/New Zealand. Every three years there is a refresher course and lectures to attend. Every time, the rules change as they find out more and more about the dangers. By the way, the Australian government reckon it would take 200/300 years to eradicate asbestos in Australia. Quite daunting.
 

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