Author Topic: Inconsiderate neighbours  (Read 20434 times)

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Offline jet

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Inconsiderate neighbours
« on: March 23, 2002, 11:01:50 pm »
I was hoping to avoid this topic untill the summer.
You may recall my last post on the old forum about the midnight bonfire merchant, well this time he has excelled.
A party on the patio this afternoon with loud music and singing.
My wife went and told them to have some consideration.
They stopped and I went for a walk over Gobions.
When I returned she had contacted the police as they had then started up a band, I am not joking!
Well thankfully it got cold and they went in.
However our village Policeman who we hoped to use as a mediator is unwell ( wish him better). The environ"mental" health dept is closed until Monday.
Hatfield police were busy but did call back, the advise:-
Keep a log, write to the council, lobby your M.P.?
In other words at this moment in time unless it is Murder we have no law and no recourse whatsoever.
None of my other neighbours seem to care or are too frightened to say anything.
What is happening to sleepy hollow or am I too sensitive?
I am supposed to be putting out invites to a Golden Jubilee party? Should I bother?
I notice the odd inconsiderate behaviour on my walks, is any one else having similar problems, it appears that perhaps a dozen families in B.P. are aggravation?
Should I be gratefull that the outside world is worse?
Yeah keep a log and when it comes to selling your house declare it and  suffer no sale, I don't think so and thats why they win. community spirit :(
regards,
jet
 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2002, 01:50:32 pm »
Lets all have a pleasant Easter and hope for consideration all around?
regards
jet
 

chazz

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2002, 05:59:12 pm »
Inconsiderate neighbours, you hardly ever get a few of these. if it is in the summer and people want to make a badn, shouldnt you let them ,just so then they can finish and stop with that idea.

It is very irregualr to get annoying neihbours so i think you should just leave them to it!

:P :P :P :P:P :P:P :P:P :P:P :P:P :P


 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2002, 06:19:21 pm »
Its all about consideration for others.
If we all feel like having a band, then the result is chaos.
Would a person like a band outside their house when they want a nap, or a sleep, or they want to do their homework in peace?
Thats why most people don't have one and go to a place where they can listen to live music in a suitable setting.
Simple as that,
regards,
jet
 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2002, 07:34:32 pm »
Regarding nuisance, correct me if I am wrong but the definition of statutory nuisance is roughly:-
"Something which occours which prevents a person enjoying reasonable use of their property"
This does not have to be continual!. A "one off" is just as likely to cause offense as an ongoing thing.
It is very subjective and open to interpretation.
Local authorities have the mechanism to advise offenders by letter and take it further if needed.
I just wondered that under the local authorities "duty of care" which is a statement of methodology which is applied to all departments of the council ( I believe). If the authority fail to act is it then their liabilty for allowing the nuisance to continue.
A real can of worms, human rights etc. Have we a lawyer amongst us or someone better informed than the writer who can comment.
I.E. is the bonfirer, coach parker etc the duty of the council to solve, with a penalty  payment due  to the "plaintiff" ( complainer) if they fail to act?
Heavy I know but I do wonder!
Perhaps NMORA can look into this sometime?
regards,
jet
 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2002, 11:36:35 pm »
I feel the need to post again on the subject of noisy neighbours. (please read my post under 'Noise Pollution'.

The summer is coming.  Hell is nigh.

I have a fairly stressful job which I enjoy.  The fun part of my job is coming home and sitting in the garden listening to nothing but the hum of the traffic which is far enough away not to bother me and the birds singing happily in the trees.  Not so at my house.  Tonight I turned into the road I live in and saw several cars parked outside a neighbours house just down the street and quite frankly I felt like crying.  I knew without a shadow of a doubt that several children would be running amok with my neighbours children and I would get no peace until the visitors departed and my neighbours little horrors were put to bed.  That means that I get no peace until about 7.30.  I cannot open my back door or open a window without feeling that they are running screaming through my house, my meal is ruined and all hope of relaxing after a days work has vanished.  

These people expect me to tolerate their lack of consideration but if I stood outside THEIR house banging a drum from 8.30 until 11 pm disturbing THEIR peace and quiet and stopping THEIR kids from sleeping I would be the villain of the piece.

WHY DO THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO RESPECT FOR MY SPACE!!!!!

This is not an isolated event.  Provided that is is not raining these children come home from school every day and are let loose in the garden to disturb the whole street from 4pm until approx 7.30.  The other children visiting and causing a nuisance is approximately once a week.  

Am I the only person feeling this way.  I am beginning to hate the summer.  I have in the past been forced to wear earplugs in my own garden and even they do not cut out the noise.  I love it when they are away, if only for a day, so that I can enjoy my garden and my house without the trespass of their noise pollution.

If this lack of respect for others is the new age of parenting then I really think that something has got to be done to bring back the respect that people used to have for each other.

I know that respect is earned but how can these children learn respect when they are not taught to respect a fellow human beings right to quiet.

As I am typing this the tears are running down my face.  My beautiful house and garden hold no joy for me.  It is all being ruined by these people.

What can be done to stop them???
1.  Complain to the council - if you follow this course, you have to declare that you have a problem with the neighbours when you come to sell the property.  Good selling point I dont think.  Victims treated like criminals or what.

2.  Name and shame - sounds good but do you really think these people would care.  They dont care about the upset they cause or the unnecessary stress.  If they did care they wouldn't do it.

3.  Go and ask them to stop - same response as above.

If you can think of anything I can do (apart from move) please let me know.  Somethime I feel that I am the only person feeling like this.

Astra


 

Offline MC

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2002, 12:01:48 am »
Astra - have you actually spoken with these people? curious about their response.

And I mean in a deadly serious fashion rather than casually over the fence or something

Rgds

Mark
 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2002, 01:02:06 am »
Mark - Thank you for your reply.  Yes I have tried to talk to them.  Initial responses when all this started (a couple of years ago) 'all children make a noise' 'you're exagerating' 'my children do not scream - they are playing'

Recent response last week when I rang to ask them to turn it down (not stop) 'they are having such a good time it seems a shame to ask them to be quiet' my response 'nobody else is having a good time' their response 'the other children will be going soon' Action taken by them - none.

Tonights response when I rang to ask them for a little consideration was that they put the phone down on me and carried on making even more noise as though I didn't exist.  Action taken by them - put the answerphone on so that they do not have to talk to me.

I would go down there but I feel that the confrontation would be too much and whilst I can control my temper, this is too touchy a subject.

One thing I feel I must say, these people do not live next door to me.  My immediate neighbours (between me and them) appear to go in and shut up shop until it quietens down and the neighbours on the other side of me (even further away from the children) are having their beautiful garden ruined for them.  They cannot believe the noise that comes from this one family.

How is it that one family can ruin so much for so many and not give a damn.

Astra
 

Offline The Orange Llama

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2002, 01:18:42 am »
Astra,

The only thing I would suggest it talking to your other neighbours and seeing if they agree with your point of view. I wouldn't then recommend going en masse around to the person's house to complain - you might need to be a bit more tactful, but if that family knows that half the street is upset with them, rather than just one other household, they may be more willing to listen to reason.

Apart from that, I really don't have any ideas. You say you have approached the council - have you tried the police? They may be able to make some suggestions. Alternatively, the citizens advice bureau may have some ideas.

Are you local at all to Gobions? Can you suggest that perhaps the kids go and play there instead?

You have my profound sympathies anyway.

Sincerely yours,

OL
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Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2002, 01:31:30 am »
Thank you OL for your comments.

I haven't been to the council yet.  I may be forced to move if things don't improve and you have to declare to the buyer (by law) that you have a problem with the neighbours.  The police are completely and utterly useless.  They are not interested.  All they say is make a log of dates and times and take it to the council.  That really sorts the problem out.  These people wouldn't care if one person or a gang of ten were to call round and ask them to be quiet.  They are the type that believe that as they can afford to live in a place like Brookmans Park they can do what they like and nobody else matters as long as they are okay.  Its the snob equivalent of I'm alright Jack.

But thank you again for your consideration.

Astra
 

Offline The Orange Llama

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2002, 01:41:25 am »
Astra

I'm a great believer in 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. I know little about what powers councils do have (does anyone else?), but seem to remember hearing about some legislation going through about nuisense neighbours and noise pollution in the last couple of years. I would make a log of times etc when you have been disturbed and take it to the council if that's what the police are suggesting - it is not going to hurt and the end result may well be to your advantage.

Alternitavely, if you can find out the sanctions/fines that may be forced on an inconsiderate neighbour (I guess that would be one the citizens advice bureau could help with), maybe dropping a letter around to the house stating the action you are going to take and the likely consequences if you do take the action (unless the situation improves by a set date) may be an idea. Granted, that would sour relationships between you and them, but from the sounds of things it's not exactly rosy at the moment.

All of the above, I would suggest, are a lot less hassle and less drastic than moving house - again, particularly if you can find other people in the road who share your point of view and agree with you.

Sincerely yours,

OL
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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2002, 10:35:35 am »
NSCA, the National Society for Clean Air and Environmental Protection, has several pages dealing with neighbourhood noise pollution on its site. The main points have been summed up in one page and posted on this site. click here
« Last Edit: May 23, 2002, 11:42:09 am by admin »
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

John_fraser

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2002, 11:25:46 pm »
I am constantly amazed at the attitude people in this country have to children. My wife often says that the British are more tolerant of other people’s pets then their children and, as with so many things, more and more I realise that she is right.

Children do make noise. Upset or happy they will make noise. If anyone knows how to bring up well adjusted children without them making noise I strongly suggest they patent it. Every parent on the planet will buy it. After all, how many of you reading this grew up with out laughing and crying – and 1,000 other sounds – all at the top of your voice.

Children also need fresh air. Far too many children spend time in front of computers or the television. Young limbs need exercise, children need to run, jump, climb, skip, kick balls and all the other things required to learn the motor skills they will require. And above all the need to let off steam and just enjoy the only time in their lives where they have no worries.

Brookmans Park contains a spectrum of households, from young families, like my own, right up to retired couples whose children have long left home. In my opinion this is a good thing and helps makes Brookmans Park a nice place to live. I can’t imagine anyone would like to turn this place into a “God’s waiting room” of elderly couples.

I have no idea if Astra lives near me and is complaining about my family - although we have never received a complaint, so I imagine not. My wife, however, often takes our children to NCT groups in the village, so it is probable that my children have been among “little horrors” spoken of. If so I offer no apology for them enjoying themselves. Even before I became a farther I strongly believe that the sound of children's laughter was among the best in the world, certainly better than “hum of the traffic.”

Whatever you feel, children are our future. Be a little more tolerant and you may even enjoy the sight and sound of them. And in all fairness a 7:30 cut off is not unreasonable at all.

 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2002, 02:36:03 pm »
Mr Fraser

My complaints were not directed at you and your family.  If your neighbours are tolerant of your children then you are very lucky indeed.

I have no objection to 'normal' noises made by children.  There is nothing more pleasant on this earth than to hear children happy and enjoying themselves.  What I do object to is the volume of the noise.  Children screaming at high volumes is undisciplined and unnecessary.  Children blowing piercing whistles in the garden for over an hour at a stretch while the parents are indoors with the door closed is unacceptable.

Any noise that a child makes that causes a nuisance to neighbours is an invasion of privacy.  Everyone is entitled to the priveledge of relaxing in their garden whatever the time without having to resort to earplugs.

The neighbours that cause me intense grief live two doors away.  The neighbours on the other side of me are also sick and tired of having the pleasure of their garden ruined by the screaming and shouting that is coming from this one house.   This is also compounded by the fact that at least once a week several other children visit and the noise is horrendous.  The parents are sitting inside ignoring the fact that these children are causing a problem.  When challenged and asked to turn it down a bit I was told that they were having fun but it was not fun for approximately 16 other neighbours who were having their evening ruined.

When I was young our gardens were too small to play in.  We played in the street but there were several men in the road I lived in who worked nights and we were disciplined enough to know where not to play so that these people could get their sleep.  During school holidays and on the way home from school we were taken to the local park where we could let off steam without annoying anybody.  I don't think I was hard done by being brought up like that.  I learnt respect for other peoples right to peace and quiet.  Something that is sadly lacking in this day and age.

When are parents of young children going to realise that your noise does not stop at your fence ! ! !  It can travel a fair distance and can be a real pain to those of us who like to come home and relax in relative peace and quiet.

When I moved into this house, the neighbours in question did not live there.  If they had and if I had heard the noise that they make, I would not have bought the house.  These people have turned a nice quiet road into a living hell.  When they are in full swing the noise penetrates my double glazing and with all the windows and doors shut, there is nowhere in my house that I can escape it.  On the other hand, why should I lock myself up in my house like a prisoner on a nice summers day so that several undisciplined inconsiderate children can have 'fun'.

Ask yourself one question.  If you wanted to sit in your garden and read a book quietly on a Sunday afternoon and you neighbour played very loud reggae music would you not find this annoying.  If they did this almost every day for over 5 years would you not feel a bit peeved.

I rest my case

Astra


 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2002, 05:17:08 pm »
I'd be interested to know if Astra has children !

It's a fact of life that children are going to want to make a noise during play, although obviously not to an unreasonable degree.

I agree entirely with John Fraser's comments, I have three young children, all under five, and like all healthy young children need fresh air, exercise and the opportunity to let off a little steam. Yes, this will inevitably mean a little noise that other residents can hear, but like everything else it comes down to people being 'reasonable' (a highly subjective adjective I know !) and tolerant.

The trains make far more noise than my children, yet I wouldn't ask GNER if they could suspend services as they interrupt my time in the garden. Aircraft, and especially helicopters (is it a police helicopter that regularly circles BP in the vicinity of the vilage?) also cause plenty of noise yet we don't seem to complain about them.

I'm sure I'm about to receive a barrage of flak for these comments, however I thought I'd share my views with everyone. I can see this developing into a 'bonfire moron' debate as inevitably there will be people with young children and those who haven't.

 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2002, 06:48:53 pm »
Dear J. & S.,
I find your opinions quite unbelievable because you have not witnesed the noise this family makes.
I know Astra quite well and if I tell you that the screams can be heard above my petrol lawnmower with earplugs on then perhaps you will appreciate that the behaviour is extraordinary.
There is not one place in my house to escape the screams and I do not live next to them.
After 3 hours of constant screaming, shouting and whistle blowing a few weeks ago a polite request for a bit of moderation so that we could eat in some peace was met with the phone being slammed down.
I am at the stage where I am considering legal action against these people.
We are witnesing the first generation of undisciplined children being raised by undisciplined parents.
John if you think your children may be causing aggravation why not consider showing them the right and wrong way to behave. Shouting etc is just bad manners nothing else. If you were causing me a problem I would have asked you to be more considerate. By the way I have no children but believe me when my neices or nephew stay they are encouraged to behave correctly and they do so.
All forms of inconsiderate behaviour are unacceptable no matter what they are.
Sas, to say that wether one has children or not has a bearing on this matter, is if you think about it divisive and quite insulting
The big losers in this sorry mess, well its the children, they are being spoilt and will be in for some shocks in later life when they are out in the world and upset the wrong person.
My last comment on this because it looks like becoming very serious indeed and quite frankly is no business of anyone who is not affected.
regards
jet
 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2002, 07:00:01 pm »
Dear Sasquatch

You state that children should let off a little steam (I use your phrasing).  That is not unreasonable.

What is unreasonable is a constant barrage of screaming and shouting from 3.45 to approx 7.30 on every weekday when it is not absolutely pouring down with rain.  At weekends it starts at approx 9.30 and carries on through the day until the evening only pausing for a a few food and drink breaks. (and I mean pausing not stopping).  This is a constant nuisance that drives me out of my house or locks me up inside like a prisoner.

In answer to your other question, no I do not have children but there are loads of children in my immediate family.  My sister for one will tell her children not to shout and scream in the garden as it is disturbing the neighbours.  She shows consideration for her neighbours and has never had a complaint from her neighbours regarding the noise.  Children can let off steam without resorting to the noise pollution that I am suffering.

Children laughing is tolerable.  Children playing is tolerable.  Children constantly screaming and shouting is not tolerable.  It is a pain in the neck.

The NSCA page on this website states that one of the problem areas is 'sounds that are enjoyable to some but annoying to others'.  This is exactly what I mean.   Screaming and shouting is annoying to me therefore it is a form of noise pollution as it is polluting my living environment.  I also fail to see how any parent can enjoy the sound levels without wearing earplugs or are you all so inconsiderate that you think that you can do what you like just because it involves children.  This is the impression that I am getting from parents on this site.  They will let their children annoy everyone around and there is nothing we can do about it because its children making a noise.  Maybe a little discipline now will stop these children turning into undisciplined teenagers in the future.  

Quite frankly it makes no difference whether I have children or not.  What if I was a retired person whose children had left home.  Am I not entitled to a little peace and quiet in my own home.  My neighbours children have left home and they cannot stand the noise being made by the children down the road and why should they have to tolerate it.

Astra
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2002, 07:34:50 pm »
I am sympathetic to your situation, Astra, as a parent I do my best to ensure that my children are well behaved and considerate to others (as I'm sure the majority of parents are).

Out of interest, how old are the noisy children ?

Jet, you certainly seem to read a lot into my comments, nothing insulting or devisive intended, just adding to the discussion. You're right though about the children being the ultimate losers, as an adult who was bought up to have respect for others I put great value on good manners and consideration for others, hopefully this will be passed on to my children.

Unfortunately I think a lot of the problem of noisy children might be attributable to 'hyperactivity' due to the additives in snacks and drinks. Coke especially. I don't have any proper evidence for this though !

 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2002, 08:31:47 pm »
Dear Sasquatch

I applaud your attitude regarding your children showing consideration for others but unfortunately I feel that you are in the minority.

The children in question are 6 and 8.  The first time I knew that the new neighbours had moved in was when the oldest child (who was 2 then) screamed so loud in the garden it gave me a start and I dropped a cup of coffee and broke the cup ! ! ! !

Actually, there is evidence that certain E numbers can cause hyperactivity.  About ten years ago this was brought to the attention of the media.  My nephew (aged 6) was 'hyper' and when I took him away on holiday, I tried not to feed him the usual junk and even resorted to making crisps for him using real potatoes.  He did calm down but it was all back to hyper when we returned and he started eating junk food again.  My friend has also stopped giving her son chocolate because after eating it, he would run amok until the effects wore off (he is only 3 years old)

Well I will be leaving work soon to go home to the madhouse.  Sunny outside - oh no - here we go again.  

Astra
 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2002, 09:23:16 pm »
Dear Sas,
Your comment about having children or not was in my opinion slightly thoughtless shall we say, there could be reasons that some people do not have children, such as medical reasons, bereavment etc. To suggest that people change their personality or ideals because they have children  is again a bit presumptive. I realise you meant nothing by it but it does nothing in my humble opinion to mitigate bad behaviour this way.
When you moved next to the railway you knew what you were in for and lets be frank trains come and then they are gone. I lived near the railway and once worked under railway arches and the noise becomes less noticable with time.
Shouting is rude and therefore bad behaviour.
Screaming is brattish and again a means to get ones way in preference to others, this again is bad behaviour.
Laughing constantly is a sign of mental instability, things can't be constantly funny can they?
When parent tells child to behave, on go the waterworks and sulks, parent relents because of embarresment, child gets own way yet again.
I hear it all the time.
Result instability due to lack of firm but kind guidance.
Next day poor teacher has to deal with result of parents "soft" attitude.
In short there is no excuse for bad behaviour its just the childs way of seeing how far they can go, and with some of the spoilt children around here its all the way.
regards,
jet
 

Offline anna

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2002, 10:58:54 pm »
Well I've just read this post all the way though, and have very mixed feelings on this.  Firstly, Jet, sadly your your views do change when you have children of your own, I guess you do get used to more noise generally, and don't always notice how loud things are getting. Its very different having kids 24/7 rather than just a few visits from family.

Some other points though.  Firstly there is no way on earth I would let my children play on the streets, and I' m not sure parks are much safer these days. We have got big gardens here, and I like to know my children are safe.

When we moved here a year ago, I was concerned because we have four kids, and I realised we had elderly neighbours. I immediatly introduced myself and told them to let me know if they noise ever gets to them. I must be very lucky, because her exact comments are, "don't be silly, there is nothing sweeter than hearing children playing" she told she had missed it greatly as the couple who had lived here no longer had young children.  More than that, my neighbour made every effort to get to know my children, and has even invited them round. I'm very lucky indeed. I've apologised on many occassions if the kids have been shouting, or the dog barking, but everytime she says to me, its nice to hear life next door.  However, it works both ways, I'm understanding when they have bonfires at midday, or the constant noise of lawn mowers or electric saws..........It's give and take.

I do my best to make sure my kids don't scream, or shout in the garden, if they are crying I bring them inside. If the dog barks I bring him in as well. But sometimes if I have other peoples kids here, it is hard to keep the noise level down. Kids do tend to shout.  They do need to excersise there lungs for a while, they are constantly being told to keep quiet in the house, at school etc.......and to suggest I take them to a park to let of steam, well what about all those people who are trying to relax at the park because they don't the pleasure of their own gardens!

Saying all of the above, I do believe I have well behaved children, I've never had a complaint, and they do understand that they have to be considerate to neighbours, although this is a little hard trying to explain this to a 2 or 3 year old.

It must be hard for this family too, who want to enjoy their garden and perhaps feel people are spoiling it for them as well, sorry just trying to see it both ways.

We actually have noisy neighbours near the back of us, and  I can hear their children morning, noon and night, even over the noise of my four.......but I just console myself that its not forever and these children will grow up.

As someone else said, I think this is a very british thing, other countries seem to embrace their children, they  are welcome in restaurants etc......over here, we are meant to always feel guilty if our children want to act as children rather than  little adults.

I don't know your situation Astra, I am only talking generally, if these people are extreme then you have a problem. My suggestion would be to try and talk to them again, not accusingly. Explain that you work, but also understand the kids need to play. Perhaps you could suggest a certain time of day where they can just be a little more considerate, say at least an hour after you come in from work, that they don't use whistles or shout to much. You may find if you try to reach a compromise they might be willing to help.  It is a break for the parents as well when the children are outside, and we do need that time to clear up a bit and get things done and we also crave a bit of peace and quiet.

Why not see if you can get to know the children a little, and then perhaps you can explain directly to them why you like peace and quiet. I feel if you show children respect you usually get it back.

I really hope you can sort your problems out.
 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2002, 11:52:17 pm »
To all it may concern,
I wish people would read what I am writing. The noise is not just kids playing and having fun. It is continual screaming and shouting for sometimes three solid hours at a time. It gets through earplugs, even over the sound of a lawn mower. The father is never there he is too busy making money to supervise his children. His reply once was "my children don't make a noise." But he is not there when they make a noise, so shows something of the type of person. They are in fact fine respectable people, they just have no consideration for others. As for talking to the kids, do you really want me to have the justifiably outraged father coming round to my house for a ruck?
It is so easy to offer solutions, but if the people were reasonable the problems would not happen.
On my walks I hear the same type of ignorant behaviour from various families in this village, its the same people all the time. The problem is that most people are so nice they would rather not complain and suffer a lifetime of aggravation.
This place is becoming sureal, bad behaviour is excused good behaviour is treated as a luxury.
I don't need sympaphy, I just want my basic human right to live in peace without fear of being victimised.
I am the one being made ill, I have caused no upset to anyone, I even only mow the lawn when my neighbours are out to save disturbing the quiet.
regards,
jet
P.S. Anna I have had children here 24/7 and believe me they have caused no nuisance to anybody. They are not shouted at or bullied, just distracted and amused so they do not need to missbehave. My mothers favourite game was "lets see who can be quietist the longist" ;D
« Last Edit: June 18, 2002, 11:56:21 pm by jet »
 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2002, 12:58:41 am »
Dear Anna

I have just read your recent post.  I do understand that your feelings change when you have children.  They become the pinnacle of your existance and nobody can say anything against your children because it really is an indirect criticism of you as a parent.  In some ways this is what I am doing.  I am criticising the way these people allow their children to behave in this manner.

In answer to the points that you raised, I do agree that playing in the street is dangerous.  (My neighbours also allow their children to play out in front of their house on the drive which does not have a fence or gates and is open to the road.)  I consider the parks are safe enough provided the children are properly supervised.  Why do these parents who drive to collect their kids (or walk for that matter) not stop at Gobions on the way home.  It could become an after school club for the mothers and the children.  In answer to the nuisance question for the houses surrounding the park, the park was there before the people moved in - they knew what they were getting - my neighbours moved in after me - I rest my case.

As I said before, I have no problem with the sound of children playing or laughing or even crying.  These are normal things that children do.  Undisciplined screaming and shouting, blowing loud whistles for over an hour non stop,  banging something metal with a stick for 45 minutes non stop is not normal.

I have tried talking to them - and I mean asking politely - no response.  They do not think that they are a problem.  Everyone else in the street thinks that they are.  There is never an apology for any unnecessary noise or even a warning that their garden is going to be invaded by every waif and stray in this village at least once a week.  They seem to think that it is normal to have seven to ten children between the ages of 5 and 10 years old running riot, unsupervised, sometimes fighting and hitting each other, while they sit indoors.  I don't seriously think that they could be sitting outside watching the children because they would not be able to make themselves heard over the din.  One night last year the children ganged up on one of the smaller children and locked it in the shed.  The child was screaming and crying to be let out for 30 minutes while the other children screamed and banged on the side of the shed.  Is this considered normal by a parent to let your children do this to one another.  I don't think so.

Give and take - well all take on their side.  They have taken away my peace and quiet, my ability to sit and read a website quietly when I come home from work (I bet your kids are in bed now and you are posting on this site while it is quiet), even the ability to eat a meal without having to listen to the noise from down the road.  Take on my side - they give me nothing to take.

You may have well behaved children (I know they exist) I cannot comment as I have never met them but I will take your word for it.  You do your best to ensure that your children do not scream or shout and take them in when crying.  Please come and live along the road from me.  You are doing with your children what I wish they would do with theirs.  Showing a bit of consideration for everyone else.  As for enjoying their garden at the expense of more that 20 people not enjoying theirs - I call that downright selfish.

You console yourself with the fact that your neighbours children will grow up and the noise will stop - dream on.  Teenagers with loud music then start and these are the undisciplined children we have now who have no respect for their parents because their parents gave them an easy ride as youngsters.  This is the only life you get - its not a rehearsal.  Am I supposed to wait at least ten years to get some peace and quiet.

I do not think that this is a British thing.  I do not appreciate going to restaurants and having children running around because their parents aren't controlling them.  The last restaurant I went to that had children running around I saw an elderly woman knocked over and burnt because the parents were too busy gassing to look after their children and it was too much hastle chastising the child - let it run about knocking into a waitress who in turn knocked over an elderly customer behind her and split a plate of very hot soup on her leg.  These were the parents who complained that their meal was late because the chef was the first aider and stayed with the lady until the ambulance came for her.  A really pleasant meal out.  I was always being taken out by my parents and I used to copy them by sitting properly and behaving, using the right cutlery, etc so that I looked like a grown up rather than a child, minding my manners so that I was remembered by the staff as a credit to my parents not a nuisance.   Restaurants are not playgrounds.  They can be potentially dangerous places and should be treated as such.

These people are not open to being reasonable.  They do not consider that they are causing a problem so they do not consider that they need to change anything.

Astra
 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2002, 12:59:54 am »
Hi Jet

How ya doing

Thanks for support

Astra
 

Offline anna

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2002, 05:00:27 am »
Astra,

Please understand I was not actually having a direct go at you or anyone else. Just sticking up for some of the kids that are well behaved.  I do feel for you. We moved from our last house because we had kids playing out on the street, and I couldn't stand it. I was terrified I'd knock one down, (and that would be my fault of course!!).  I just feel some people just don't like seeing kids enjoying themselves...........that was not directed at you, I don't know you or your situation.  Yes, I love my kids, I will protect them till the bitter end, but that doesn't mean I would allow bad behaviour or bad manners. I am not blind to their faults.

I do understand how awful it must be for you, as I said, noise from my own children just playing happily can get to me sometimes.......at times I feel sorry for my neighbour, but I always check with her, and if I thought for a moment it was ruining her enjoyment in any way I'd something about it. I would like to live here for many years so the last thing I want is bad feeling. However, when it gets to the stage you are at.......I'd have to get my own back in some way.........you have tried all the nice ways........they haven't worked. If you report it to the council you say this has to be declared when you sell the house.........

So let me give some helpful hints as a mother........and a problem I had with an old neighbour, (we did sort the problem though) In my last house, we had nice neighbours, but as soon as summer came, they would set their garden up as a badminton court and invite all and sundry round, and play until gone midnight with their garden floodlit, and lots of cheers and shouting. They even shouted up to my kids once at 11pm at night (the window was open) and asked if they could throw the ball back! As well as this annoying habit, ever so often, without warning they would set fireworks off in the middle of summer......at midnight! As a parent, I can't tell you how annoying it is to have all the children woken up. I did sort if with my neighbour, but all I can say is if things are that bad for you, fight back, they annoying you at your relaxation time........so why not dish it back to them, destroy their peace when they have finally got the kids to bed. Talk to your "other" neighbours about perhaps having a few late night get togethers, music in the garden etc. I know this sounds horrible, but perhaps once you disturb their peace a little they might begin to understand how you are feeling.

In complete support to you Astra, if one of my kids blew a whistle for more than 5 mins, I would go mad and throw the damn thing away. Kids can be loud, yes, they like to shout, yes........but there does have to be limits.

I will be honest Astra, when the kids at the back of my garden begin to annoy me with all their noise.......I let my dog out, he runs straight to the back of garden and starts barking, and they run inside! Problem solved :)

I really wish you luck with this problem, we don't have much of a summer, and its a shame if your enjoying what little we have.  Get your other neighbours involved, please keep us informed as to how things go.


 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2002, 12:34:58 pm »
Dear Anna,
So you are suggesting fight fire with fire.
We then become bad neighbours to every one else.
Well two wrongs never make a right. Refer to Palestine or Northern Ireland.
We try so hard not to be unpleasant for the sake of the children.
There are times I have had to back off from people because their children are present and I would not wish them to witness unpleasantness in any form.
I know you are well meaning but you have just done a Cherie Blair ( I appologise its an awful person to compare you with, but you get my drift)
The result of our comments seems to be that we are now at odds with yourself, John and Sas, just because you have children and we don't, yet we have done nothing wrong, weird?
Best for me not to bother anymore, sounds like its only going to be grief all round.
regards,
jet
P.S. Anna why do you think we moved from Enfield?
Strangely where my parents live in Tottenham, which is full of crime, drugs etc it is quieter than here, could it be that if you cause hasle there you end up in A & E ?
 

Offline sasquartch

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2002, 01:36:11 pm »
An interesting debate this has turned into !

For what it's worth here are some (more) of my views.

Jet, let's not try and classify people as either 'have children' or 'don't have children', and 'being at odds' with anyone, after all, inconsiderate behaviour affects everyone.

Anna, I agree with just about everything you've said, you are absolutely correct when you say your attitudes change when you have children. Four children must be hard work, certainly I find it tough going with three sometimes. I would never condone poor discipline or unruly behaviour, but kids will always try and push the boundaries and inevitably make some noise.

As far as fighting fire with fire, if it's genuinely the last resort then I can't see what other options are left. Unfortunately there are problems with the 'official' approach, local authorities have little power and are ineffective at enforcing any ruling. So as long as any 'retaliation' is within the law and as 'reasonable' as the problem neighbours are being with you, then why not ? It might be the only language these people understand. Controversial maybe, but desperate times call for desperate measures - it sounds as the situation has reached a desperate point.

I'm thankful that I get along very well with my neighbours, some of which have children anyway and we all get along fine. So I guess that proves that it is possible to have children and get along with others - although it's never as clear cut as that.

 

Offline MC

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2002, 04:32:02 pm »
Wow.

What an emotive thread. I agree with most of the conclusions reached in the later posts but I am surprised to find some of the earlier views so polarised.

I am aware of some residents whose children communicate with each other "and" their parents at one volume level only : full-blown shouting.  This is a constant situation in terms of their communication - seemingly - but not in terms of them always being in the garden. So while it is annoying it is very intermittent but it makes you realise how awful it could be on a permanent basis.

I am a parent of a 3 year old and I regard all this as bad behaviour and anti-social behaviour.

Of course kids make a load of noise and it is one of the greatest things going. But as usual we have to avoid sweeping generalisations. Children having fun is joyous. Children shouting continually, throwing tantrums until they get what they want (and of course they so often do), blowing whistles for hours at a time, banging sheds for hours, screaming rudely at their parents........ all this is not acceptable.

I tend to agree it is a case of ill-disciplined parents bringing up even more ill-disciplined kids. I'll maybe be accused of being dramatic but where do we all think this behaviour is going to end up?

I think it's pretty obvious. There will be a part-generation (because not all children are brought up like this of course) who are spoilt beyond belief and reckon that shouting and screaming will always get them what they want.  I suppose there will be two broad outcomes of this - their disappointment and difficulty when they realise the real world isn't like this and secondly a further slight move towards actually making the world like this.

And in the meantime everybody else is trying to live with a situation that may only get worse as the children get older.

Frankly, people should be bothered to bring up their kids properly or not start down that road in the first place.

Good luck Astra. If desperate times have been reached then perhaps the desperate measures are the only way forward from here.

MC

















 

Offline jet

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2002, 07:19:27 pm »
Dear Sas,
You did ask if Astra had children, so if it does not matter wether if one has children or not why did you ask. It was not me trying to classify people.
There must be 300 households with children in this village. I would estimate that only 10-30 families maximum are a nuisance its just that noise travels.
There are four noisyish families within my hearing say out of 100 households.
Having asked a few people at random I have been astounded when they say that people that I have considered to be most respectable are in fact very painfull to live next to, strange?
It is not going to change, residents are extreemly territorial and the reality is whilst people say they are community minded, they don't actually act in a genial way. It really is an "I'll do what I like area" I am afraid a bit like everywhere else.
One would have thought the area quite elitist but its lower common denominator time. Mediocracy and base levels are aspired to.
I think its just making decent people like those on this site react against each other rather than with each other for the common good.
Best leave it at that,
regards,
jet
P.S. The noise around here is not constant, its just when my noisy neighbours (plural) are home. If I see their car in the drive my heart sinks, if its not there it soars.
 

Astra

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Re: Inconsiderate neighbours
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2002, 08:09:46 pm »
Dear Anna

I have to disagree with you.  Fighting fire with fire just reduces me down to their base level.  I am a quiet private person and quite frankly it goes against the grain to have a loud party or make a lot of noise that would be a nuisance to anyone.  That would put me on the same level as them so that if I did approach them again in the future about the noise I feel sure that they could quote the time and date of my party or noise and throw it back in my face.  It would make me no better than them.

Perhaps I should buy two lottery tickets at the weekend and if I win, make them an offer for their house that they could not refuse ! ! !  Wishful thinking.

Lastly, I would like to thank everyone who has posted on this site in response to my postings.  I hope that some of the parents in this village have read this theme and looked long and hard at their childrens behaviour.

Maybe one day we may become the caring community we always claim to be.

Astra

 

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