Poll

Which of the following were the top three reasons in your list? Please use the other option if I have missed your objection and feel free to expand on the point in the thread. I have set the poll for three votes per person.

Building on green belt
7 (21.2%)
Local/national development policy
0 (0%)
Local/national recycling strategy
2 (6.1%)
The local environment/nature
7 (21.2%)
Emissions and air quality
9 (27.3%)
Size and aesthetics
2 (6.1%)
Traffic implications
4 (12.1%)
Blight and effect on house prices
2 (6.1%)
Other (please add details below)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: August 28, 2013, 09:38:08 am

Linked Events

  • Environment Agency consultation drop in session on incinerat: March 22, 2012
  • Environment Agency public consultation on incinerator operat: April 18, 2012
  • Incinderator planning meeting - Campus West: July 19, 2012
  • Waste Sites Allocations Public Hearing, County Hall, Hertford: September 03, 2013 - September 05, 2013
  • Incinerator protest Fielder Centre, Hatfield Business Park: September 10, 2013
  • Incinerator Public Inquiry, Fielder Centre, Hatfield Bus Park: September 10, 2013 - September 12, 2013
  • Incinerator Public Inquiry Ramada Comet Hotel or other: September 17, 2013 - September 19, 2013
  • Incinerator Public Inquiry Ramada Comet Hotel or other: September 24, 2013 - September 26, 2013
  • Incinerator Public Inquiry Ramada Comet Hotel or other: October 08, 2013 - October 10, 2013
  • Incinerator Public Inquiry Ramada Comet Hotel or other: October 15, 2013 - October 17, 2013
  • Incinerator Public Inquiry Ramada Comet Hotel or other: October 22, 2013 - October 24, 2013
  • Waste Sites Allocations Public Hearing County Hall Hertford: November 05, 2013 - November 06, 2013

Author Topic: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?  (Read 575689 times)

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Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2011, 02:14:02 pm »
Let me say straight out that I am totally against an incinerator at New Barnfield.

What is not helpful is a comparison with the effects following a huge earthquake at Japan since  New Barnfield is not in an earthquake zone nor is it next to the coast.  Japan has lots of other nuclear power stations which continue to operate safely as far as we know.  This was a one-off.  Equally it does not help to talk about the smell at the Edmonton incinerator if it has composting on the same site.   Chalk and cheese.

Does anyone know how old the Edmonton incinerator is?  No doubt the technology has improved over the years and it might be an obsolete design.  I know someone who has visited incinerators in Germany and he said you would not know what went on inside apart from the type of vehicles going in and out.  Another person who has lived in Germany tells me incinerators cause no problem there.

Offline PS

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2011, 02:30:34 pm »
Maybe technology has improved - but the mere perception of the word "incinerator" will no doubt have a negative influence on nearby property prices.

Good luck at the Demo - the local voices MUST be heard !!!
 

Offline sprint

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2011, 02:37:01 pm »
Quote
Does anyone know how old the Edmonton incinerator is?

I'm sure it was there when I used to live in Tottenham in 1988.
 

Offline trekbat

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2011, 02:52:56 pm »
What is not helpful is a comparison with the effects following a huge earthquake at Japan since  New Barnfield is not in an earthquake zone nor is it next to the coast.  Japan has lots of other nuclear power stations which continue to operate safely as far as we know.  This was a one-off.  Equally it does not help to talk about the smell at the Edmonton incinerator if it has composting on the same site.   Chalk and cheese.

Does anyone know how old the Edmonton incinerator is?  No doubt the technology has improved over the years and it might be an obsolete design.  I know someone who has visited incinerators in Germany and he said you would not know what went on inside apart from the type of vehicles going in and out.  Another person who has lived in Germany tells me incinerators cause no problem there.

The point about Japan is that government / regulator assurances of how safe a facility is cannot be accepted at face value (and applying your own logic to your German incinerator visitor: do you know whether French-owned Veolia will be using the same systems here? Plus, unlike Britain, Germany has greatly reduced the amount it incinerates at source).

It also highlights the extent of the impact should something go wrong (Murphy's Law: "If something can go wrong it will").

As for one-offs, there have been a number: Seveso, Bhopal, Chernobyl...with catastrophic and expensive consequences.

And there have been a number of incidents with incinerators operating in this country:  http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/hottop/incin-murphys.html

It also worth remembering the decades of arguments and counter arguments against smoking (where it was eventually proved that major corporations deliberately suppressed research that proved smoking was harmful).

As many people now using the fortnightly bin collection will have noticed - garbage smells. And that's before it's been collected and transported.

I would be surprised if it's all immediately incinerated as well. Simple logic would suggest that there would be a stockpile as deliveries may not be operated 24/7 but I suspect the plant will be.

An incinerator is not something we need to have. There are other options as has been shown before.
 

Offline chicken legs

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2011, 07:48:10 pm »
Just come back from the demo - very good turnout, I thought.  Grant Schapps spoke and emphasised that we need a fighting fund.  He's aiming to start with £50,000 and is already half way.
 

Offline BrookyP

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Offline BrookyP

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2011, 08:17:54 pm »
on a more serious note good luck to all-i dont want this on my door step

(i did throw out a black bag this morning though so guess that makes me a hypocrite!! will address that issue asap)

I wanted to sign the petition on the GS website but looks like doing that will mean im on the mailing list for loads of other stuff im not interested in. Can that policy be changed as im sure its not just me whos bothered about that?


I dont want loads of cr£p through my door that may have to go off to be incinerated..LOL....bp
 

Offline Tubbs

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2011, 08:19:34 pm »
Veolia Exhibition - Proposed Waste Incinerator at New Barnfield: My Initial Reaction

I’ve just visited (Thurs 9th June) the Veolia exhibition at New Barnfield for the proposed incinerator. These are my initial reactions / thoughts. I am trying to be objective; I recognise that one can’t reasonably expect all the advantages (such as they are…) of modern life without accepting or at least recognising that these don’t come without some disadvantages.  It would be so easy to fall into the trap of being a NIMBY; I know that could be so easy as I live a ‘comfortable-ish’ distance away in Brookmans Park; would I feel the same if I lived a close to the site as those in south Hatfield?

Here are, in no particular order, my thoughts and reactions. I haven’t researched the issues (yet) so I’d be relaxed if I’m wrong, whether in the pro or the anti-direction. If I’ve these initial reactions, quite likely so have others, and so they are valid thoughts.

The Veolia exhibition looks quite smart. I display of stands, with pictures, diagrams and explanatory text. And some nice people from Veolia and Hertfordshire Council to answer questions.

But get a bit beyond this, and it is disappointing, at the very least. Work out the questions you, as a visitor, may have. Put aside emotion (it doesn’t help); try to be objective. Read between these displays, put them together. Then one starts to see the gaps; whether Veolia (and Hertfordshire Council) are conscious of it (and I came away thinking they are not) the exhibition is fairly glib; that your valid (unemotional) questions aren’t adequately addressed or sometimes not even recognised. They seem to be more concerned with their own displays than acknowledging the questions, their validity, or backing up the statements on their own displays.

The artists impression of the building: it looks reasonably nice. A silvery dome and tall slender chimneys. On a separate display, we’re informed that the chimneys are ‘provisionally 65 metres high‘. ‘How high will they be end up?’ I asked a Veolia rep. Answer: Thtr depends on tenh Environment Agency’. Fair enough; but that doesn’t answer my question, so I ask again. I think he said 65 – 75 metres (something like that). Are they shown to correct scale size on the visualisation? Yes, I was told.

I am sceptical that the visualisation is a really true impression of what the ‘dome’ (45 metres high, I heard) and the chimneys will look like in reality (even though the building seems externally nicely designed).

Across the other side of the hall another display shows a ‘process’ flow diagram and ‘energy / emissions’ balance of the facility. It tells us that the waste incineration will generate 47 Megawatts of electricity. If we are going to incinerate waste, then turning it into electricity is clearly a very good thing (wherever the site is).

But electricity generation (at power stations or waste plants) need electric cables to carry it away; almost always by pylons, maybe 50 or 60 metres tall, spaced out every few hundred yards. Back to the visualisation: where are these cables and pylons? I ask the Veolia man; he agrees they aren’t shown. He half agrees that their omission could be considered misleading, but that ‘The power lines will be the responsibility of the power utility, not Veolia’ he helpfully offers.

The cables will have to connect to the National Grid, and as they’ll probably be at a very high voltage I reckon they will need tall pylons, all they way over the A1 to wherever they connect. The Veolia man tells me that under the law the power company will have the right to place their pylons on the land, even if it’s private land (eg farms), it’s just a matter of the agreeing the land rent with the landowner. I suggest the pylons and cables (and transformers) will not look nice. He suggests the cables could be underground (all the way to the National Grid….?!), but again he says ‘it’s a matter for the power company’.

[An engineering friend told me the underground duct for the cables would need to be about 6 feet wide by 3 feet deep; all the way to the Grid; who would pay for this unless forced to?].

So does the visualisation truly reflect the facility, when Veolia excludes the power pylons..?

I ask about the environmental impact of various aspects: emissions, noise, vehicles. Preliminary assessments have been carried out, full assessments are being carried out, I was told. I asked why they could not at least been able to show/display, based on their experience here and elsewhere, what they reasonably expected the impacts to be. This would at least address these issues in a way that people could feel comfortable with.

The choice of the site:
As best as I could make out (and I stand to be corrected if wrong), Veolia had no real choice other than New Barnfield. If the contractor selection was a ‘level playing field’ I wonder if the same could be said about the choice of site. The whole facility is to be financed by PFI. This is itself an incredibly expensive kind of ‘hire purchase’ scheme used by government (and notoriously and secretively by the last Labour Party lot) with resulting massive debts for generations to come. The Treasury would only give Hertfordshire Council the ‘PFI credits’ it needed for the project if the ‘reference scheme’ was based on land the Council owned. It seems only New Barnfield met this. If Veolia or its competitors wanted to use a different site they theoretically could, but would have to buy that land or rent it which of course would be market price; and (I guess) they’d have to start the environmental impact process from scratch. Is Veolia paying the market price for the New Barnfield site? I was told (by Veolia) that, for a competitor who made the short list, proposing another site made a difference of 4% on his price. That’s a big difference.

So, is the main / over-riding reason New Barnfield has been selected due to commercial factors, and indirectly due to HM Treasury…?
 

Offline Aloo

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2011, 09:35:02 pm »
Tubbs makes very reasoned points.  I too went to the demonstration and I am livid at the joint marketing exercise by Veolia/Herts County Council and that my Council tax is being used in this way.

It is worth noting that many people in Herts County Council (HCC)  still don't realise the strength of feeling locally.   I have heard it said on more than one occasion that HCC are surprised that local opposition to the plans is so muted.  Can I suggest if haven't done so already you complain to your local county councillor, members of the relevant Council committee and the relevant officers of HCC.   HCC need to understand that local people do not want this project.
 

Offline trekbat

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2011, 11:38:16 pm »
Given that this whole incinerator issue blew up because of the threat of EU penalties on landfill, the following BBC news item takes on a whole new significance.

"The UK is set to miss EU targets on air quality, government documents say - which may mean a legal row just before the London Olympic Games.

The targets should be met by 2015.

But the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) has admitted many cities will not meet them before 2020, while meeting London's targets could be as late as 2025.

If the European Commission is not satisfied by these plans, it could launch infringement action next year."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13714931

chicken legs,

I hear (informally) that the £20k the Hatfield Town Council Mayor wanted to spend on celebrating Hatfield House's 400th anniversary will now be donated towards a fighting fund (and that HTC will be requesting WHBC to at least match it). I wonder if this figures in Grant's £25k?

BrookyP,

If you don't want to sign Grant's petition other options include:

Write or email directly to councillors
http://www.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/adresses.html

Or even start your own

HCC online petitions
https://consult.hertsdirect.org/

Tubbs,

Very good point about the apparent lack of pylons in the visuals - although in reality there already are some very close to the site. Also, apparently one of the reasons for wanting to site this monstrosity so close to a built up area instead of out-of-sight, out-of-mind is because the heat byproduct needs to be close to the end user (homes and industries). Which also raises questions as to how it is going to be transmitted from the site - over or underground piping presumably.

tumbliboo,

Today was the first time I've seen a really good turnout (although, to be fair, I haven't been for all the meetings). Like HCC, I've been surprised at how muted the response has been. But then again, most of the campaigning has been done by the HAI group. It has been interesting and disappointing to see how little communicating and mobilising has been done by key individuals and civic institutions (although some politicos seem quick to make speeches or pose for the photo ops). Part of the problem has been the way Hatfield has been in apparently managed decline (more like freefall) as mentioned in Reply#50.
 

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Offline waterendcafe1

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2011, 09:22:07 am »
I think that we all have two choices in that patch of land... 1) Either and incinerator whos smoke will be put through filters, lorrys going in and out. I am aware there is a school near or a huge great big hole full of rubbish with birds flying around, bigger lorries, smell.
I am not totally agreeing with an incinerator but i think it is a lot better than having a view of a huge holey rubbish tip.
 

Offline Tubbs

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2011, 03:32:13 pm »
The Incinerator and the CHP Myth

Sorry to upset preconceived notions, but the incinerator plant will generate electricity only. It will not be ‘a CHP plant (combined heat and power). It never was, isn’t planned to be and 99% certain never will be. In fact (and although I haven’t checked back thru’ the history), even the county council, local councils and some professionals who should know better have referred to it as a ‘CHP plant’. So it is quite understandable that, almost since the beginning of the incinerator saga, many ordinary people, it seems, have been under this misapprehension.

Forgive me for going back to basics: The waste will be sorted; the incombustibles removed. Then, just like in a power station (that would use coal or oil), the combustible bits burnt in boiler(s) to make steam; the steam sent to turbines connected to electrical generators. The steam that’s gone through the turbines is now very low temperature, but has to cooled (condensed) to turn it back to water, so that it can be put back into the boiler and the cycle repeated. Now, this cooling is where ‘cooling towers’ come into it – to get rid of this heat! (See below..)

In a CHP plant the electricity output is lower so that the hot (waste) water can be hot enough to use for heating. That will not be the case at New Barnfield. If it were intended to use ‘CHP’ where would the heat be used? It could only be used to heat houses or factories. All the houses in the area already have heating, so it would actually cost fantastic sums of money, than it would be worth (plus disruption) to put in pipes to the houses, and remove the boilers (assuming the house owners would allow it – which I don’t think they would!). So, the New Barnfield plant would maximise electricity, as the heat cannot be used. (Not unless a nice big swimming pool were built!).

Back to the ‘cooling towers’: There has to be a way of getting rid of this heat. My engineering friend tells me they won’t be like the big concrete ones you see at power stations (these aren’t allowed these days). Very approximately, they will probably have to use about twenty cooling units (for the technically minded..!). These are basically big metal boxes with fans in them. Depending on the type, these could each be 30 feet long by 15 feet wide by 30 feet high, and they have to have air inlets and outlets, covering a large area in aggregate.

Are these accommodated in the big dome? Or are they outside? And in either case, were they mentioned at the exhibition…? I contend that, even if they are inside the dome 9and thus are out of sight), the fact that they haven’t even been mentioned hardly adds to the credibility of Veolia or the Council. But, as per my last post, I’d be happy to be proven wrong.

Ps: This post is not to try and ‘frighten’ or ‘upset’ people. But if the community wishes to fight this proposal, with credibility, it should surely be made conversant with at least the basic physics and technical facts.
 

Offline trekbat

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2011, 03:59:34 pm »
Thanks for clarifying that.

I was told that the reason it had to be near a built up area - as opposed to a less obtrusive and disruptive site, like Cole Green where there used to be a household recycling facility and an existing building materials recycling facility -  was because it was a combined heat and power facility. All of which makes their decision to use this site to predictable outcry (and expense to local authorities dealing with inevitable correspondence, petitions, protests and legal action) all the more baffling.

PS
Personally, I rather not have anything to do with incinerators or their workings - when I have far more appealing things to do. But, given the local authorities appear hellbent on foisting the wretched thing on us, needs must.
 

Offline Ferdie

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2011, 04:49:33 pm »
I am pleased at some very informed comments on this forum, but I am still to be convinced either way. It seems we are all very good at saying "no" to everything in this area, - no to Vet College Expansion, no to new houses, - no to Tesco's, no to parking restrictions, no to flats, no to car parking charges, the list seems at times baffling. In so many cases, viable alternatives are not considered or suggested. In reality it is wonderful to have aspirations of zero waste, but even countries and towns around the World that have had this mission for years they are still many years away from this goal, if ever. In the meantime we see more houses being built, (The Fryth at Welwyn, approx 200 houses) just where are the resources coming from? Water, sewage disposal, infrastructure, schooling and what to do with the rubbish? (For example sewage, huge opposition to new sewage treatment solutions proposed by Thames Water in London). Also, employment, I understand Yodel (formerly DHL Hatfield) are making workers redundant, who knows what will happen with T Mobile/Orange also in Hatfield. The fact is we are a hugely overpopulated area of the world and need smart, effective solutions to challenges like waste disposal. The proposed development will mean investment and jobs, and this is a solution, ....and even as I say this I can hear a chorus of people crying out and wailing that we will all be poisoned by noxious fumes or run over by lorries thundering along local roads. The facts are we are already subject to these pollutants anyway. As I say I have yet to be convinced either way and nobody wants to be returned to the deadly smogs of yesteryear and the factories that churned out toxic acrid smoke from the time of industrial revolution. Mankind survived and has come a long way since those days and huge technological advances have been made. As 'Waterend Cafe' says, do we want a landfill tip there instead? Ideally, we want to recycle more and produce less waste, (it is proposed the new facility will include some recycling anyway, items that Joe Public just chucks out anyway as they can't be bothered to recycle it). In reality a large percentage of the population don't care and don't recycle. They still waste water, waste food, buy products from non sustainable sources, fly to exotic holiday destinations, drive rather than walk/cycle/take public transport, etc, etc. In time attitudes may change - I hope they do. The crisis on landfill is here now, what are we going to do about it? At the risk of coming across too evangelical, "Let Those Who Have no Sin, Cast the First Stone"
 

Offline chicken legs

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2011, 06:24:20 pm »


Today was the first time I've seen a really good turnout (although, to be fair, I haven't been for all the meetings). Like HCC, I've been surprised at how muted the response has been. But then again, most of the campaigning has been done by the HAI group. It has been interesting and disappointing to see how little communicating and mobilising has been done by key individuals and civic institutions (although some politicos seem quick to make speeches or pose for the photo ops). Part of the problem has been the way Hatfield has been in apparently managed decline (more like freefall) as mentioned in Reply#50.

I, too, have been disappointed at the lack of support for HAI from our local County and Borough Councillors. and maybe from BP residents.  BP isn't very far away and the A1000 is bound to suffer an increase in HGVs.  I've been twice to the County Hall protests and the attendance was very poor.  If it wasn't for Cathy Roe and her small HAI team there may well  have been no sign of any objection.
 

Offline trekbat

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2011, 10:13:16 pm »
While there are exaggerated claims and many unknowns (some possibly unquantifiable), I very much doubt whether the benefits will outweigh the negative impact, at least for people in the local area. For example, the very prospect of this incinerator or EfW (Energy from Waste) plant is likely to have a negative impact on property prices. As for Hatfield job losses, I suspect that will increase. For example, it's doubtful whether Mitsubishi will want to stay put or anyone else want to move in should they move out.

There are long planned and much talked about redevelopment projects for Hatfield town centre and the Hilltop area. Again, the presence of an incinerator is not likely to be a selling point to attract the sort of businesses and professionals that would benefit the town (if anything, established families may move out). So, if they can't attract them then in all probability the new houses and flats will end up as student digs or used to house social needs cases. This will only reinforce the negative stereotypes of Hatfield and further its decline. Something that will do nothing to improve the safety and security of neighbouring affluent areas.

There is no reason why the New Barnfield site should be used for landfill.

Logically, such a facility for Hertfordshire should be located in the centre of the county to reduce road journeys (of course, if they're planning to take London waste as an income generating scheme it changes the equation).

I agree that too many people are part of the problem rather than helping with the solution. Again, if the amount of waste is reduced at source it reduces the need for people to tidy up.

It would be interesting to know the comparative statistics of the amount of waste per person per year today and in say the early Seventies. Much of what we throw out as waste today is an unnecessary waste.

A profligacy that has some bearing on where we are today - broke.
 

Offline trekbat

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2011, 11:32:16 am »
I get the impression people may have missed out on some of the developments so here are a few old and new news snippets:

22 April 2011: "Currently the council is attempting to vary the covenant to allow the scheme to proceed."

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/covenant_on_land_at_hatfield_s_new_barnfield_will_not_stop_incinerator_1_873437


28 April 2011: "Council papers also confirm that the authority has already spent more than £4.4million on a lengthy procurement and consultation process, adding that the council’s reputation would be damaged if the applications were rejected."

[also claims of potential savings for HCC and counterclaims regarding PFI]

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8999073.Hatfield_chosen_for_incineration_plant/


11 June 2011: "Figures from the Office of National Statistics show a jump in infant deaths in Great Lever - where the Raikes Lane waste plant incinerator is based. The Royal Bolton Hospital is also on the edge of the ward boundary.

The Health Protection Agency (HPA) does not believe incinerators cause “significant risk”, but is now looking to reassure the public with a special study."

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/districtnews/9079433.Waste_incinerators_inquiry_into_link_with_infant_deaths/


If incinerators are as safe as they claim they are, why does the HPA feel the need to conduct a 'special study'?

It seems their 'evidence base' for pronouncing that there is nothing to fear has a few holes in it.

Exactly how much 'insignificant' risk parents are willing to subject their children to presumably depends on how much they're willing to gamble with their own health and that of their offspring.

Or they could say no thank you to their incinerator and make sure it never gets built.
 

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2011, 07:19:51 am »
What's the next step in the campaign follow last week's demo?
The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.
 

Offline Bob Horrocks

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #79 on: June 13, 2011, 02:25:31 pm »
What's the next step in the campaign follow last week's demo?

Too early to say any more than that various parties have now met and agreed on a course of action.  To recycle an old phrase - Watch this space

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2011, 03:27:58 pm »
various parties have now met and agreed on a course of action.

Hi Bob, is the agreed course of action known outside of the 'various parties' and, if so, can it be shared in this forum?

David
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Offline EvieMay

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2011, 04:58:28 pm »
I think that we all have two choices in that patch of land... 1) Either and incinerator whos smoke will be put through filters, lorrys going in and out. I am aware there is a school near or a huge great big hole full of rubbish with birds flying around, bigger lorries, smell.
I am not totally agreeing with an incinerator but i think it is a lot better than having a view of a huge holey rubbish tip.


Yes, the smoke is filtered but if you do your research you will find that the 1% of toxic material that is too fine to be filtered (nano-particles) is the most likely to damage health.  It is also unregulated.  Infant mortality rates around these facilities appear to be 2-3 times that of the national average, with convincing figures showing increases in respiratory and neurological disorders.  Since I live within a quarter mile of the proposed site I would, if given the choice, actually prefer a stinking hole in the ground for the sake of my children's health.  I'm currently considering my options regarding moving from the area if it goes ahead, I cannot contemplate living so close to such a facility, however well filtered Veolia claims its emissions are (no doubt their employees all live a safe distance from New Barnfield so their children's lungs will no be affected).  In the meantime I will lie down in front of the bulldozers when they move in if I have to, this is wrong, wrong, wrong, on all levels.  The only winners are those who stand to profit! http://www.ecoivy.org/index.php/media/53-videos/83-dr-paul-connetts-incineration-presentation
 

Offline trekbat

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2011, 05:58:31 pm »
Next steps

I haven't heard anything yet. Information is usually posted on the Hatfield Against Incineration (HAI) website

http://blog.hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk/

and emailed to people who have signed up to be on the mailing list (either by email or giving their details at HAI meetings).

People interested in joining please email your name, address and telephone number to: info@hatfield-anti-incineration.co.uk


New Barnfield as a landfill site
It is extremely unlikely that New Barnfield will be used for landfill - there's no hole or old quarry to fill. It's on a hill so any contaminants would leach out or be washed down into surrounding streams and watercourses.


Untold story
I'm also convinced there's an aspect to this site that has yet to be revealed by our apparently Machiavellian County Council (not that I'm convinced that the other local councils involved are fully committed to fighting this - regardless of any statements to the contrary. If they were, they'd be the ones telling people about this).

According to the HCC Waste Strategy consultation document:

2 Spatial Vision, Objectives and Strategic Issues;

2.3 Strategic Objectives

Table 3, Point 4: "To facilitate a shift away from road transport to water and rail transport as the principal means of transporting waste;"

Somewhere along the line they clearly intend to use rail transport (both the finalists, Harpers Lane and New Barnfield, are close to rail lines). Quite possibly to be presented as a fait accompli once the plant is up and running (and Herts taxpayers are irrevocably locked into a 25-year contract).

While I'm not a 100% sure what they mean in Point 7 ("To work with all neighbouring waste authorities to manage the equivalent of the county’s own waste arisings."), it sounds to me like they intend to take a volume of waste equivalent to Hertfordshire's from other areas ie. double the amount of waste that it needs to handle.

As with anything, best do your own research and make up your own mind.

http://hertscc-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal/minerals_and_waste/wcsdmp/wcsdm?pointId=1287747093118#section-1287747093118
 

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2011, 07:12:37 pm »
Just a word of welcome and thanks to all those who have recently joined the forum and contributed to the incinerator debate. It's always heathy having diverse perspectives on such issues, particularly  as those of us not as informed try to make sense of developments. I hope someone in the 'for' camp will join and make their views known.
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Offline Tubbs

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2011, 11:11:58 pm »
Community Charge (“Poll Tax”)

(Remember the poll tax!! that was overturned – even after it became law!!!)

Off-topic but deserving a response: Adrienne obviously believes the Community Charge was intrinsically wrong. That is the opposite of the truth: it was intrinsically correct and just.

We all consume services, we should all pay for them, subject only to our means to do so from income. Was there anything wrong with it? Yes: Its implementation. The discounts system did not reasonably reflect the ability to pay. My understanding is that Mrs Thatcher would not accept this. Hence a perfectly reasonable proposal was let down by bad implementation; and reinforced another reason people objected to it: ‘class envy’.

What is fair about the rates system? Answer very little. People consume services, not houses. But we use the house value as a (false) measure of income and ability to pay towards the councils’ costs. So we have continued with a system where, often a lone pensioner or two-couple household, living in a house they paid for (often by sacrificing other things in their earlier life) have to pay a substantial part of their retirement income / pensions in rates. Meanwhile a house housing two, three, and sometimes four or more occupants (often with several of them working), and thus able to pay, is charged less.

The unfair Rates system should be abolished, and replaced with a local tax system, that everybody should contribute to subject only to their ability to contribute. It can effectively and efficiently be levied through the tax system, and with a system of ‘local tax allowances (similar to income tax) to allow a ’tax free portion and the presence of children.

I urge all readers to think about this; and I would like to know the views of our elected representative.
 

Offline green

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2011, 11:28:30 pm »
Unfortunately I am not going to offer an alternative to the underlying consensus which seems to be against development.

I think Hertfordshire County Council has lost sight of its role as a council and seems to be acting as if it thinks it is a corporation. The extent to which HCC have facilitated this development, for example with the vacant possession clause and moving of education facilities at tax payer’s costs indicate to me a playing field with HCC and Veolia on one side and the residents on the other. Veolia will not be left paying the true costs of acquiring the site. The costs and risks of this development are being placed on the communities HCC is supposed to be representing.

It seems unfair for many reasons that Hatfield is the location for the development. Already the location of incineration facilities are strongly skewed to poorer areas (55% of residents within 3km of existing UK incinerators are in the lowest socio-economic grouping whereas 3% are in the highest) and it is no surprise an incinerator at New Barnfield would be burning waste next to the the fourth most deprived area in Hertfordshire. Hatfield is found to have higher unemployment, poorer health and a poorer living environment than most areas in Hertfordshire and HCC seem happy to do nothing about this or even make things worse. Instead of constructing a recycling facility which could provide up to double the number of jobs per million tons of waste produced (and return wages to the local community instead of Veolia) it seems like they are happy to make the quality of life and life outcomes for people in Hatfield worse.

Also, here is a map to show some of the settlements within five miles of the proposed incinerator. Brookmans Park is 1.7 miles away from the site. If unseen particles can travel up to 10-15 miles from the site it’s reasonable to assume that those closer will be relatively more affected.
 

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2011, 05:53:12 am »
Yes, the smoke is filtered but if you do your research you will find that the 1% of toxic material that is too fine to be filtered (nano-particles) is the most likely to damage health.  It is also unregulated.  Infant mortality rates around these facilities appear to be 2-3 times that of the national average, with convincing figures showing increases in respiratory and neurological disorders.

Do you have a link to those figures?
 

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2011, 10:04:28 am »
Does anyone have any details of where the recycling plants are for this area? How many miles do the recycled materials have to be transported? Are they all in Hertfordshire? Does anyone know what levels of harmful CO2 emissions the movement of this material creates? Are those residents close to those recycling plants happy with the arrangements? I remember huge opposition from the community when it was proposed that a recycling facility was established on the A414  between Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City (near the Traveller site). With recycling how much methane is produced and how is this captured? What other gasses or waste product is generated or emitted and how are they controlled? How much energy is used to recycle all the various items? How much water is consumed? How is the waste water from recycling treated? How are the recycling requirements on Joe Public to be 'policed'? What will the penalties for not recycling be and how will these be enforced? I am currently in a 'battle' with the Council to take action on certain individuals on current failures; it's not working now, how will this change in the future? If a solution is not found to this issue, who will pay for the huge fines that will be imposed by the EU? (I think I know the answer to the last question  >:D) Will our politicians then be able to justify their current positions? As I've said before "Just saying "NO" is not the complete answer". What is it?

Incidentally, I have worked in warehousing and distribution and have seen the affect of inadequate packaging and the loss this causes. To supply our greedy world, food has to be transported over huge distances, it has to be packaged to ensure it is edible when it reaches market. How do those who just say 'reduce packaging' propose that we feed ourselves? How will that be enforced? How will we pay for it?
 

Offline EvieMay

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2011, 10:51:24 am »
Yes, the smoke is filtered but if you do your research you will find that the 1% of toxic material that is too fine to be filtered (nano-particles) is the most likely to damage health.  It is also unregulated.  Infant mortality rates around these facilities appear to be 2-3 times that of the national average, with convincing figures showing increases in respiratory and neurological disorders.

Do you have a link to those figures?

Hi John, there are numerous articles on-line, some more anecdote-based than others (local paper reports in areas where incinerators are already in operation).  Here is one that appears to be based on scientific studies.  There is a long list of references that can be readily verified and link directly to the relevant articles.
http://www.precaution.org/lib/07/ht070712.htm#The_Deadliest_Air_Pollution_Isnt_Being_Regulated_or_Even_Measured

A slightly less scientific, though no less disturbing view of possible health risks:

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/districtnews/districtsttoz/9079433.Waste_incinerators_inquiry_into_link_with_infant_deaths/

You don't have to dig too deeply to find numerous news stories like this and it appears to be strongly supported by scientific evidence. 

An interesting presentation on the subject, worth a watch:

http://www.ecoivy.org/index.php/media/53-videos/83-dr-paul-connetts-incineration-presentation

And finally, a comprehensive report:
http://www.ecomed.org.uk/content/IncineratorReport_v3.pdf
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 12:05:44 pm by EvieMay »
 

Offline Tubbs

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Re: Hatfield incinerator - what's going on?
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2011, 11:09:49 am »
As I've said before "Just saying "NO" is not the complete answer". What is it?

Ferdie is right about 'just saying no'. But I'd go a lot further. 'Just saying no' is no answer at all; it just shows an emotional response; an unwillingness to engage at a responsible rational level (whether one is pro or anti). Worse is that some of those who've joined in (or even promoted) this 'just say no' nonsense are people who really should know better.
 

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